EV Digest 2485
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVers/groups near Pittsburgh?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV in movie?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 140 mile range Prius. More Hacking the Prius
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EVers/groups near Pittsburgh?
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT: SUV Bumper Sticker (was: OT: Book Review - ..)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ge motor issue
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Interest Fizzles in All Electric/LA Times
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EVers/groups near Pittsburgh?
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Water drag eats ahs
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New US battery model?
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New US battery model?
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Update on Tilley's Delorian
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by "tts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Update on Tilley's Delorian
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Nansel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:45 PM
Subject: EVers/groups near Pittsburgh?
> I'm looking for EV enthusiasts in the Pittsburgh/SW Pennsylvania region.
Or
> even within a two-hour drive. If I can't find anyone close by, I 'spose I
> could drive all the way to DC to attend the EVA/DC meetings. My inlaws
live
> in Chevy Chase, MD, so I'd have a place to stay (and I reckon they
wouldn't
> mind seeing their grandson more frequently). But I really want to find
> kindred souls closer to home so when I begin my own conversion project
I'll
> have someone to encourage me.
>
> -RLN
>
Hi Bob;
Howbout Akron OH, not QUITE as far as Power of DC guys? Dave Roden, is
sorta going it alone, I think there are just under enough guyz to start a
Chapter of EAA. Like CT, I think P ,berg is a vast wasteland for EV's I KNOW
the hills will kill yur batteries, like in CT And it gets cold there, too.
Were lottsa EV's there, years ago, trolley cars plied all of Pittsburgh, but
they ran on extension cords.Catenery, Amps wern't a problem. Often wonder
if, from the Trolley Fan Fraturnity, there there aren't any un Listed EVers,
going it alone. Because their is something magic , about EV's wether they
run on rails or tires.
Happy hunting, ya came to the right place, Welcome!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Just Married movie short shows a lime green Wedge shaped
car. Could that be an EV?
Perhaps those that see this comedy with be able to POST if
the movie uses an EV as a prop for laughs
(it would not be the first, nor the last time).
-Bruce
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--- Begin Message ---
Alec Brooks, AC Propulsion http://www.socalev.com/Sounds/CARB-AM08.mp3
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Roden lives about 5 miles from my house.
The guy that bought my 1984 Fiero also lives only 8 miles from me, but
he's not on the list. He did a nice job squeezing 20 T105's in the Fiero.
He's stopped by the house 3 times in the Fiero and let me drive it 1 month
ago.
He would like to get 50 mile range, but I don't think he has enough margin.
The 10 year old EVT15 control and GE motor are still running strong.
Rod
1994 Dodge TEVan
1995 Club Car
1970 Elec trak
2002 Currie Scooter
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Nansel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:45 PM
Subject: EVers/groups near Pittsburgh?
> I'm looking for EV enthusiasts in the Pittsburgh/SW Pennsylvania region.
Or
> even within a two-hour drive. If I can't find anyone close by, I 'spose I
> could drive all the way to DC to attend the EVA/DC meetings. My inlaws
live
> in Chevy Chase, MD, so I'd have a place to stay (and I reckon they
wouldn't
> mind seeing their grandson more frequently). But I really want to find
> kindred souls closer to home so when I begin my own conversion project
I'll
> have someone to encourage me.
>
> -RLN
>
Hi Bob;
Howbout Akron OH, not QUITE as far as Power of DC guys? Dave Roden, is
sorta going it alone, I think there are just under enough guyz to start a
Chapter of EAA. Like CT, I think P ,berg is a vast wasteland for EV's I
KNOW
the hills will kill yur batteries, like in CT And it gets cold there, too.
Were lottsa EV's there, years ago, trolley cars plied all of Pittsburgh,
but
they ran on extension cords.Catenery, Amps wern't a problem. Often wonder
if, from the Trolley Fan Fraturnity, there there aren't any un Listed
EVers,
going it alone. Because their is something magic , about EV's wether they
run on rails or tires.
Happy hunting, ya came to the right place, Welcome!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Dec 2002 at 22:27, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> > ... bumper stickers on
> > other folk's SUVs ...
>
> I ... read him the riot act.
I don't think that sticking tags on other people's vehicles is the way to
change their minds. It will not give rise to a sense of shame, something
that is generally lacking anyway in our culture.
All it will do is make them angry and steel their resolve. Americans are
particularly stubborn (some might use a different adjective) that way.
Besides, we already have enough polarizing issues here in the US; I don't
know that we need something else to fight with our neighbors over.
We face a similar problem with EVs. I still believe that legislation is an
essential element of EV promotion, but it has to be done carefully. By
positioning pro-EV legislation as "coercion," the automakers have already
managed to turn the idea against us. It's not that much different (though
perhaps lower in profile) from the ad campaign that the insurance companies
used in the early 90s, the one that successfully shot down national single-
payer health insurance for the US.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> > However if you want truly massive storage there are other even better
> > solutions. Pumped Hydro, huge gyros, etc.
>
> As I previously posted, "hydro" isn't mobile. You don't get to decide where the
>powerplant will be located. I haven't seen any evidence
> that "huge gyros" are currently a practical technology for mass storage.
Good for you, however "mobile" wasn't part of the discussion previously
so...what's your point?
>
>
> > And I agree the thrust was on decentralization, another (generally)
> > bad idea. Decentralization increases costs and reduces production
> > efficiency. It's true that this would reduce distribution losses, but
> > these are more than made up by the efficiency of scale.
>
> I'd take a little less efficient and on my side of the meter over a little more
>efficient and on the other side of the meter any day.
>
We aren't talking about on your side of the meter we were talking about
power production and distribution which generally happens on the other
side of the meter.
The economies of scale tell us that large scale production will always
be cheaper and at least as efficient as small scale production.
Generally speaking it is so much cheaper that it is more cost effective
to buy your power from the power company than it is to produce it
yourself. The exception is if you live far enough away from the grid
that your initial start up costs are cheaper than a grid connection.
>
> > If we had high efficiency solar power, and high efficiency electrolysis
> > and high efficiency fuel cells then this idea might be workable. My
> > impression is that were are AT LEAST 50 years away from this
> > technology.
>
> Hydrogen can now be stored as a solid at room temperature utilizing renewable
>resources.
>
Again your point?? Being able to store it as a solid has nothing to do
with efficiency or even with costs.
P.S. I'll admit the "huge" part of huge gyros (flywheels) is somewhat
subjective. However here are some real world examples of flywheel
storage systems:
A company that produces 250KW and 500KW flywheels
http://www.activepower.com/
An in use 200KVA flywheel
http://www.ecmweb.com/ar/electric_flywheel_technology_improves/
A Japanese company working on 1MW flywheels
http://www.wtec.org/loyola/scpa/09_02.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning on a EV conversion of a Motorcycle and leaning toward a 160V
system using Evercel Nickel Zinc batteries, due to size and weight. But I
am wondering if anyone has any recommendations on a charger that would suit
the 10Ah cells that would fit this application.
Would love to have it an onboard charger, but given the voltage, I would
expect most chargers to run off of 230V AC (which prevents easy plugin in
many places). But if the added cost of a 120V system is reasonable, I
would be interested.
Any thoughts?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lifting a comm bar typically happens because the motor over-revved. It can
happen in 10 seconds if you let it rev really high, or it can happen at
somewhat lower RPMs if the motor is really hot.
How fast did you rev the motor to?
>do you think a 2 min ride (fast ride) would make this happen or was there
>somthing wrong to begin with , The motor needs a fan or blower which I
>didn't have on . found a place not to far that would put a new com on for
>$500 . This is for sombody elese and as motor had adptor plate I could give
>them a good deal , Now they are looking at regular prices and for a net
gain
>motor and adptor plate . He wants me to have it fixed (i thimk he'll pay
>the 500 as its still a lot cheeper than new stuff. ) I put my kostof in the
>car in the mean time but don't want to sell it . (using the adptor plate
>form my veary first EV VW)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:37 PM
>Subject: Ge motor issue (was: Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff)
>
>
>> Steve Clunn wrote:
>> >I'm turning it over
>> >slow by hand and I see the brush move up and down at one point .
>>
>> This sounds like a high comm bar (especially with the heat you also
>> noted). While the comm could be reground for little $$s I would not
>> be inclined to trust this motor over 1/2 its rated rpm unless the
>> comm was rebuilt (not as cheap). Something has likely come loose in
>> the comm binding, not a good thing for an EV with rpm and amp loads
>> (heat) all over the map. A good motor shop can inspect the actual
>> motor (rather than me reading about the motor) and give a more solid
>> answer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I am planning on a EV conversion of a Motorcycle and leaning toward a 160V
>system using Evercel Nickel Zinc batteries, due to size and weight. But I
>am wondering if anyone has any recommendations on a charger that would suit
>the 10Ah cells that would fit this application.
>
>Would love to have it an onboard charger, but given the voltage, I would
>expect most chargers to run off of 230V AC (which prevents easy plugin in
>many places). But if the added cost of a 120V system is reasonable, I
>would be interested.
>
>Any thoughts?
Sounds like a job for Rich Rudman's PFC charger.
It will charge a 160V pack from either 120V or 240V, whatever you find
available. Actually it's supposed to work on any input voltage from 60V to
250V AC and can output anything from 12V to 360V.
It's a relatively small charger, from their website: "The PFC20 weighs 20
pounds and resides in a box that is 13 x 9 x 5 inches."
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers2.htm
In fact I believe the only person on the list using Nickel Zinc uses a
PFC-20 (or is it a PFC-50?)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
> I was thinking that perhaps I could build, design and possibly even
> test the entire subsystem - from the go pedal to the motors to the
> heater to the charger - before I even have the car in my hands.
I have always built my EVs with everything in separate modules that bolt
into the car. For one, it's easier to build and wire them on the bench
than in the car. For another, you can take them out for repairs,
modifications, or to move to the next car.
If someone else is building the car, you can do the same thing you do
with batteries, motors, and other large components. Give the builder the
dimensions of the controller, charger, and other misc. stuff. It does
not have to be the REAL dimensions -- just give him a big enough numbers
so he'll leave you sufficient space for what you really do install.
> It's been suggested that I should build a wiring diagram of how I
> intend to hook everything together.
Absolutely! This is vital! When you start making an accurate complete
wiring diagram, you will discover all sorts of extra parts that you
forgot about (fuses, connectors). You will also discover gaps in your
knowledge (where should this be connected to, anyway?). You can also
spot any "oops" problems on paper, before things get serious (oops, if I
wire it this way, I short the pack to ground!).
> My question is has anyone tried building significant portions of their
> electrical drivetrain into components that can be removed from the
> vehicle and tested (under low power) apart from the vehicle itself?
> What are the issues encountered or anticipated?
My LecHart EV has a big metal plate that comes out of the car with 3
bolts. It has the controller; shunt; 2 contactors; main, charger, and
heater fuses; precharge circuit, cooling fan, and connectors on it. I
built, wired, tested, and ran the whole thing on the bench. From time to
time I've made changes and improvements, by just pulling it back out.
Rick Woodbury's Tango has several modular subsystems. Inside the battery
box is a high voltage control box (HVCB), which contains the main
contactor to cut power, the precharge circuit, shunt, prescaler, fuses,
and HV disconnect connectors.
The six controller contactors are on another subassembly. Others include
the controller, charger, and DC/DC converter subsystems.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, we finally got everything squared away with Edison regarding our TOU
meter, with one little hitch:
Since the TOU meter's "sidesaddle" mounting ring (which is attached under
our existing meter) is only rated for 60 amps we can't charge two cars
simultaneously.
In order to get everything up and running we now have a manual transfer
switch, but since we can only charge between 9pm and noon, to get both cars
charged overnight will involve "someone" getting up at 3 or 4am and hitting
the switch.
I would use a timer and separate circuit but we only have one circuit for
the TOU meter with two chargers using it.
Someone mentioned to me a mechanical load-sensing switch that, after first
charge tapers off, would then switch over to second charger automatically.
What would be the simplest means by which to achieve this end?
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
1992 Soleq EVcort
2003 RAV4 EV
(Hollywood Toyota called and told me they were out of 2002 RAV4s. As I began
to keel over, they hurriedly added that that meant we would be getting a
2003 instead and was that OK with me? Incentive deadline has also been moved
back from 12/31/02 to sometime in 3/03)
Just because the oil company owns our government doesn't mean we have to buy
their product.
-Mo'Nilla
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:50 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
>
>
>
> (Hollywood Toyota called and told me they were out of 2002
> RAV4s. As I began
> to keel over, they hurriedly added that that meant we would
> be getting a
> 2003 instead and was that OK with me? Incentive deadline has
> also been moved
> back from 12/31/02 to sometime in 3/03)
>
How could that be, they couldn't have run out, there's no market for EV's!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Had to break down and write the editor over that crappy story in the paper
Saturday-
Also, got rid of my big hotrod Chevy truck last night! BYE!
Sold it to the guy who built the engine for me.
He was happy to see it coming...and I was happy to see it going!
One down and one to go!
Maybe Santa can find me a nice diesel truck. I just ordered a stainless
steel drum to do my fuel-cooking in. Woo Hoo!
Editor
Los Angeles Times
Los Angeles 12/14/02
RE: Interest Fizzles- LAT 12/14 Section C/Pg. 1
Too bad John OıDell didnıt come by my house before printing this story. I
bought an electric car back in October- a Ford Escort (EVcort) Station
Wagon converted by the Soleq Corporation for Department of Energy battery
tests back in 1992, and I liked it so much I bought a Toyota RAV4 EV too- so
much for interest fizzling!
Electric vehicles were never favored by the automakers because they knew it
was much more profitable to market internal combustion engines and their
requisite fuel; however, when you examine how big industry moves goods and
people during their day-to-day operations, you discover how important
electro-motive propulsion really is to them. They not only love it, they
couldnıt get by without it. From conveyer belts to fork lifts to luggage
trucks at the airport; donıt believe what they tell you about electric
vehicles because their actions speak louder than words.
Fuel-cell vehicles are now the much ballyhooed grail that electric vehicles
were a few years ago, but automakers never really intended to deliver then,
and they wonıt deliver FCVıs any time soon, either. And letıs get something
else straight. The cars being called hybrids today are really just
gasoline-powered cars with electric assist. So they get fifty-miles to the
gallon? Big deal. Fuel pre-vaporization technology allowing full-sized cars
to get one hundred miles per gallon (with subsequent proportional reduction
in tail-pipe emissions) has been around since World War II, when it was used
on Sherman tanks and B-29 bombers with great success.
After the war, the technology was forgotten, but not by the oil companies.
The list of patent owners of all the different fuel pre-vaporization methods
developed over the years reads like a whoıs who of the petroleum and
automotive industries: Shell, Exxon, Phillips- GM owns three and Ford owns
four! So please excuse my lack of amazement at their new and improved
mileage.
The automotive and oil industries have a vision for the future- and it
certainly doesnıt involve you charging your EV with the solar panels up on
your garage roof, like we do.
Soon Iıll be trading my gas-truck in for a diesel and running it on
bio-diesel as well. At that point we will not be burning any fossil fuel for
transportation purposes. By doing so we will be mitigating our portion of
the environmental damage caused by our vehicles, as well as sending that
much less money back to OPEC.
Remember: Just because our government is owned by the oil company doesnıt
mean that we have to buy their product.
Sincerely,
J. Marvin Campbell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert wrote:
> I'm looking for EV enthusiasts in the Pittsburgh/SW Pennsylvania
> region. Or even within a two-hour drive. If I can't find anyone close
> by, I 'spose I could drive all the way to DC to attend the EVA/DC
> meetings.
The closest official club available is in West Conshohocken, Pennsylvania. The Eastern
Electric Vehicle Club:
http://members.aol.com/easternev/
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the real life data point.
Side winds cause drag, too. I'd be curious to hear about Ahrs for
just side winds, and wet roads but no wind, to compare.
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I took off Sat morning for the SJEAA meeting at 9am. I take Highway
>
> 101 South and cruise at 55 mph which draws about 100ahs off my 132
> VDC US145 pack.
>
> It had rained the night before, but had stopped on this morning.
> There was still water on the road, and gusty winds try to toss my
> EV from side to side.
>
> On my trip, the joy of an EV shows when I can feel the road to the
> point of knowing when their is a slight down or up hill (something
> that is lost on an SUV that only shows its fuel consumption at the
> station).
>
> [Since Automakers are taking good ideas from EVs to add to their
> ICE
> hybrids, rather than 1.5 mpg increase, wouldn't it be better to
> add a digital mpg read-out in the dash cluster?]
>
> My 22.6 mile trip usually uses 2.1 ahrs per mile or about 48ahs.
> But
> today, my Cruising Control Emeter read -67.7 ahs down. This means I
> used 3 ahs per mile. Where did all the drag come from?
>
> Possibly a frontal wind, but I was tossed around so much from side
> winds and did not feel any frontal winds.
>
> When I drove through pools of standing water on the highway, that
> is
> where I felt not only the loss of traction (hydroplaning) but a
> slow
> down when passing through.
>
> Could it be that these tires are hanging on to the water and
> causing
> a drag (which uses more power)?
>
> ...
>
> My trip home was the same route and speed as before but it was now
> raining (nice of the weather to hold off until the meeting was
> over).
>
> When I pulled in to home, I had the same mileage and higher than
> normal ah readings.
>
> Truly, it isn't so much pushing a head wind as added drag from the
> wet road.
=====
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:
> > As I previously posted, "hydro" isn't mobile. You don't get to
> > decide where the powerplant will be located. I haven't seen any
> > evidence that "huge gyros" are currently a practical technology for
> > mass storage.
>
> Good for you, however "mobile" wasn't part of the discussion previously
> so...what's your point?
My point is that you can't move waterfalls around to meet the demand. Additionally,
there are not any new waterfalls popping up to meet
the increased demand for power.
> > I'd take a little less efficient and on my side of the meter over a
> > little more efficient and on the other side of the meter any day.
>
> We aren't talking about on your side of the meter we were talking about
> power production and distribution which generally happens on the other
> side of the meter.
Ah, but the original article most assuredly did, and was the crux of the perspective
of decentralization.
> > Hydrogen can now be stored as a solid at room temperature utilizing
> > renewable resources.
>
> Again your point?? Being able to store it as a solid has nothing to
> do with efficiency or even with costs.
Sure it does.
The process is exothermic, not requiring any external heat, and utilizing renewable
resources. Further, the process is totally inorganic
(carbon and sulfur free), producing a high quality energy source (hydrogen or
electricity) without any polluting emissions.
> P.S. I'll admit the "huge" part of huge gyros (flywheels) is somewhat
> subjective. However here are some real world examples of flywheel
> storage systems:
Peter, I never claimed that "gyros" didn't exist. I merely stated that I hadn't yet
seen any practical applications.
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marvin wrote:
> Well, we finally got everything squared away with Edison regarding our
> TOU meter, with one little hitch:
>
> Since the TOU meter's "sidesaddle" mounting ring (which is attached
> under our existing meter) is only rated for 60 amps we can't charge
> two cars simultaneously.
Does it have it's own circuit breaker ? Could it be upgraded to a higher amp unit ?
> In order to get everything up and running we now have a manual
> transfer switch, but since we can only charge between 9pm and noon, to
> get both cars charged overnight will involve "someone" getting up at 3
> or 4am and hitting the switch.
>
> I would use a timer and separate circuit but we only have one circuit
> for the TOU meter with two chargers using it.
What about a timer to engage a relay that would switch which charger was connected to
the outlet ?
Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
Sorry, I could not respond due to vacation.
I designed the US1800 battery as a lower capacity, lower priced, lower
weight battery for those golf car and other applications where these
things are priority.
If the capacity meets your requirements, it is as good as any other
battery we make. Remember, the DOD will be higher for this battery in
the same application than a higher capacity battery. Thus, you will get
somewhat shorter life than with a higher capacity battery.
Sincerely
Nawaz
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> I was wondering about 'what if' I bought a 120VDC truck
> conversion. It would likely need upgrading (charger,
> controller, etc). I would like to move the pack voltage
> up to improve efficiency (less IR loss) and performance
> (acceleration).
>
> My blazer was a 120VAC design. I got 45 miles range on
> flat at a constant 55 mph. Acceleration in stop and go
> is sluggish.
>
> So I looked at the USbattery product page
> http://www.usbattery.com/6vglfcr.htm
>
> If I took the battery pack weight
> 120 VDC = 20 US125 batteries
> 20 x 67lbs = 1340
> If I bumped the pack voltage up to 144 VDC (22 6v batts)
> but tried to keep the same pack weight
> 1340 / 24 = 55.83
> I would need a battery that weighs 56 lbs.
>
> That page shows a US battery model I had not seen before
> model ahs mins L W H lbs
> US-1800 201 100 10 1/4 7 1/8 11 1/8 56
>
> If the truck had the room, an addition battery rack could
> be added to hold four more batteries.
>
> The charger, controller, and DC2DC would need to be
> matched to the 144VDC pack voltage.
>
> The T105 is not acid (electrolyte) starved (compared to
> the T125 and even more so to the T145). The US-2000 is
> the T105 equivalent. Kitty Roden had very good performance
> in her 144VDC Porche using T105s.
>
> If the US-1800 is not acid starved, this could offer a
> 144VDC solution to those that have the room for four
> more batteries but don't want the weight.
> Its something to consider.
>
> -Bruce
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
Sorry, I could not respond due to vacation.
I designed the US1800 battery as a lower capacity, lower priced, lower
weight battery for those golf car and other applications where these
things are priority.
If the capacity meets your requirements, it is as good as any other
battery we make. Remember, the DOD will be higher for this battery in
the same application than a higher capacity battery. Thus, you will get
somewhat shorter life than with a higher capacity battery.
Sincerely
Nawaz
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> I was wondering about 'what if' I bought a 120VDC truck
> conversion. It would likely need upgrading (charger,
> controller, etc). I would like to move the pack voltage
> up to improve efficiency (less IR loss) and performance
> (acceleration).
>
> My blazer was a 120VAC design. I got 45 miles range on
> flat at a constant 55 mph. Acceleration in stop and go
> is sluggish.
>
> So I looked at the USbattery product page
> http://www.usbattery.com/6vglfcr.htm
>
> If I took the battery pack weight
> 120 VDC = 20 US125 batteries
> 20 x 67lbs = 1340
> If I bumped the pack voltage up to 144 VDC (22 6v batts)
> but tried to keep the same pack weight
> 1340 / 24 = 55.83
> I would need a battery that weighs 56 lbs.
>
> That page shows a US battery model I had not seen before
> model ahs mins L W H lbs
> US-1800 201 100 10 1/4 7 1/8 11 1/8 56
>
> If the truck had the room, an addition battery rack could
> be added to hold four more batteries.
>
> The charger, controller, and DC2DC would need to be
> matched to the 144VDC pack voltage.
>
> The T105 is not acid (electrolyte) starved (compared to
> the T125 and even more so to the T145). The US-2000 is
> the T105 equivalent. Kitty Roden had very good performance
> in her 144VDC Porche using T105s.
>
> If the US-1800 is not acid starved, this could offer a
> 144VDC solution to those that have the room for four
> more batteries but don't want the weight.
> Its something to consider.
>
> -Bruce
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the key is that you won't be able to BULK charge two cars
simultaneously; how likely is this to happen? Just because you can run over
100 miles between charges doesn't mean you should.
Stay Charged!
Have a Merry CHRISTmas, hopefully a new car will be in your garage!
Hump
>
>
> Marvin wrote:
>
> > Well, we finally got everything squared away with Edison
> regarding our
> > TOU meter, with one little hitch:
> >
> > Since the TOU meter's "sidesaddle" mounting ring (which is attached
> > under our existing meter) is only rated for 60 amps we can't charge
> > two cars simultaneously.
>
> Does it have it's own circuit breaker ? Could it be upgraded
> to a higher amp unit ?
>
>
> > In order to get everything up and running we now have a manual
> > transfer switch, but since we can only charge between 9pm
> and noon, to
> > get both cars charged overnight will involve "someone"
> getting up at 3
> > or 4am and hitting the switch.
> >
> > I would use a timer and separate circuit but we only have
> one circuit
> > for the TOU meter with two chargers using it.
>
> What about a timer to engage a relay that would switch which
> charger was connected to the outlet ?
>
>
> Vince
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> > As I previously posted, "hydro" isn't mobile. You don't get to
>> > decide where the powerplant will be located. I haven't seen any
>> > evidence that "huge gyros" are currently a practical technology for
>> > mass storage.
>>
>> Good for you, however "mobile" wasn't part of the discussion previously
>> so...what's your point?
>
>My point is that you can't move waterfalls around to meet the demand.
>Additionally, there are not any new waterfalls popping up to meet
>the increased demand for power.
And I said "Pumped Hydro", that is where you pump water up hill into a
reservoir (and you can build your own reservoir if you want to) during times
of excess and let it run a generator when demand exceeds production.
Besides why would you need to move the storage facilities around to meet
demand? Even if you could move it around (and moving ANYTHING requires
energy) you couldn't move it fast enough to keep up with unexpected demand
anyway.
Since the vast majority of people don't move their house around they don't
really need to have the power company move around either. Even those who do
move their domiciles around (snow birds in RVs) just plug into existing
infrastructure when they arrive, so there is no real need to move the
storage facilities around.
Expected demand can be met with pre-placed storage that doesn't need to
move. Unexpected demands can be met by additional storage facilities and
the energy routed through the grid (just like it currently is).
Even with the losses in the grid it is more efficient to move the
electricity than it is to move the production facilities.
>> > I'd take a little less efficient and on my side of the meter over a
>> > little more efficient and on the other side of the meter any day.
>>
>> We aren't talking about on your side of the meter we were talking about
>> power production and distribution which generally happens on the other
>> side of the meter.
>
>Ah, but the original article most assuredly did, and was the crux of the
>perspective of decentralization.
Yes the article did mention using your car's fuel cells to back fill the
power grid. A stupid idea on many fronts. This means the consumer must
either purchase hydrogen or produce it themselves. In the article they
assumed you would produce it yourself.
This means the consumer must purchase solar cells or some other renewable
power production system, purchase the electrolysis system, purchase the fuel
storage system, purchase the fuel cell equipped vehicle and then sell the
power to the power company at a ridiculously low rate because the power
company can produce it much cheaper than the consumer can.
The consumer must also pay for upkeep and maintenance of these facilities.
The consumer must pay for all of this up front and won't ever break even.
Ignoring the additional losses in this proposed system, the solar panels
alone take about 20-30 years to break even without incentives. And
incentives can't work on a mass scale because the money for incentives COMES
from the masses. If solar panels become cheap enough to be a feasible mass
scale energy producer, then the power companies will buy them in bulk and
still get them cheaper than consumers, which means you won't ever break
even.
Even if you ignore the dollar costs of solar panels there is some
indications that solar panels require more ENERGY to build then they will
produce in 20 years. Add in the additional losses of converting the
electricity to hydrogen, the energy lost storing the hydrogen, the energy
lost producing electricity again, clearly you are way into negative energy
production. Where are you going to get this additional energy from?
Current technology fuel cells wear out fairly rapidly, so you would be
buying new cells (that are currently very expensive) several times a year to
do as the article suggested. There is an energy cost associated with
creating fuel cells, where will that energy come from? Does this energy
exceed the energy produced by the fuel cell during it's life time?
I guarantee the energy needed to create this entire process far exceeds the
energy it will produce.
How about the distribution system? The article even admits that the current
electrical infrastructure isn't ready for this idea and would need to be
completely redesigned (expensive and time consuming).
Nobody is going to spend billions of dollars to completely redesign the
power system into a new system that is more expensive to operate than the
current system, even if the new process didn't require more energy to build
and run that it produced.
The whole concept is unworkable anytime in the near future. When technology
advances to the point where alternative energy is cost effective, it will
STILL be cheaper for the power company to buy and maintain the production
facilities than it will be for consumers. And it wouldn't require a
complete rebuild of the grid.
>> > Hydrogen can now be stored as a solid at room temperature utilizing
>> > renewable resources.
>>
>> Again your point?? Being able to store it as a solid has nothing to
>> do with efficiency or even with costs.
>
>Sure it does.
>
>The process is exothermic, not requiring any external heat, and utilizing
>renewable resources. Further, the process is totally inorganic
>(carbon and sulfur free), producing a high quality energy source (hydrogen
or
>electricity) without any polluting emissions.
And this process is?
Beside storage efficiency can only reduce over all system efficiency. Even
if the storage efficiency was 100% (impossible) there is an energy lost
creating the hydrogen, and more energy lost converting the hydrogen back to
electricity, not to mention the energy lost creating the electricity
originally used to produce the hydrogen.
Creating the hydrogen organically 'might' be a possibility someday, but it
isn't feasible yet and may never be.
>> P.S. I'll admit the "huge" part of huge gyros (flywheels) is somewhat
>> subjective. However here are some real world examples of flywheel
>> storage systems:
>
>Peter, I never claimed that "gyros" didn't exist. I merely stated that I
hadn't
>yet seen any practical applications.
Practical applications are what I posted. There are at least three
different companies producing flywheel based UPS systems and numerous
companies are currently using these systems. The company in Japan is
working on developing 1MW+ flywheel systems with the goal of building a
"Flywheel Farm" of 10 or more flywheels for their power company.
The large flywheel systems are much closer to actual use than Hydrogen and
far more efficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently got an email from Bruce Meland about his visit
to Tilley's, checking his website I found this writeup with lots
of pictures that you might enjoy:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/delorean_ev2.html
Rumor has it that the figure the foreign company is
paying for the technology is high 10 figures.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone willing to guess as to what the device is that extends the range and
provides re-charging.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of John Bryan
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Update on Tilley's Delorian
I recently got an email from Bruce Meland about his visit
to Tilley's, checking his website I found this writeup with lots
of pictures that you might enjoy:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/delorean_ev2.html
Rumor has it that the figure the foreign company is
paying for the technology is high 10 figures.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I knew that Bruce was gullible when it comes to over-unity energy devices,
but I didn't realize, until now, that he would misrepresent the facts to
make a bogus system like Tilley's look real.
>From his article:
"On the 14th lap, Carl heard a popping sound from the left wheel, and on the
17th lap, after 23 miles, the left wheel bearing completely gave out.
Disappointedly, this prompted him to head for the pits. Thus the highly
anticipated run was put on hold for another day.
Again measurements of the batteries were taken immediately at the pit, and
they again showed no noticeable drop in voltage!"
Bulls#!t. Reports from the track indicated that the voltage of the pack
measure 137V several minutes after the load was removed. Far from
indicating that the pack was "reasonably charged." this indicates that the
pack was severely discharged, way past the point when it should have been
considered empty.
Bruce knows this, he drives an EV after all. This kind of fallacious
reporting is inexcusable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone willing to guess as to what the device is that extends the range and
provides re-charging.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
False hope and inaccurate instruments.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of John Bryan
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 6:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Update on Tilley's Delorian
I recently got an email from Bruce Meland about his visit
to Tilley's, checking his website I found this writeup with lots
of pictures that you might enjoy:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/delorean_ev2.html
Rumor has it that the figure the foreign company is
paying for the technology is high 10 figures.
...John
--- End Message ---
