EV Digest 2529
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Evercel MB80's won't fit!
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) (OT) EV-1, Steve Tanner@ vbiz Iink
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New EV Project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: (OT) EV-1, Steve Tanner@ vbiz Iink
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus (long and technical reply)
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Ev's unplugged
by Lisa Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: gimme a brake ...
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) cut-n-crimp
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Evercel MB80's won't fit!
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: cut-n-crimp
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery heaters (was: Evercel MB80's won't fit!)
by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:55 AM 1/12/2003 -0500, Seth wrote:
My experience has been that batteries at 100F will do at least 10% more
energy than at 60F. Maybe use a step up transformer to get to 170VAC, or
just twice as many heaters?
This is self-regulated heating cable, so the only way to get a higher temp
is to turn up the voltage.
Sounds like I should try the experiment though.
I'm not sure if I'll just hook it to the pack, or find a step-up
transformer so I can turn the heat on/off separately.
I may need to keep the Zivan charger with that kind of setup, as it goes
into a "float" stage at 175V after the charging finishes. This would keep
the heaters from draining the pack.
Can a PFC-20 be configured to do a float stage?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the way they do it in Germany, from what I've heard.
Strict manufacturer liability laws require the manufacturer to deal with the
end result of their product.
Dead TVs don't go to the landfill, Sony/Panasonic/et al, all have to recycle
their products at the end of their service lifespans.
This is why BMWs are so easily separated into AL/Steel/Glass/Plastic/Fiber,
etc. They're made to be easily recycled, but only because the manufacturer
knows they be the one having to do the recycling.
Makes damn good sense to me.
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
on 1/12/03 6:30 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Something like this should be done for all products, not just vehicles, but
> determing the true cost would be such a political process, it could never be
> done fairly. As a first approximation, I think manufacturers should have to
> take back all products they've made for disposal and/or recycling, sorta like
> pop bottles. They'll quickly make them much more reuseable and recyclable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My next project is to build a recumbent around a battery box(long and
skinny). This design uses only 2 hp to attain 60 mph. Look Ma I have a
battery box and it's not being used.
http://www.voidstar.com/bff/images/recped.jpg This is what I want to make
next. I believe I can make this little demon go 100 miles at Freeway
speeds. Lawrence Rhodes... I am sure Frank the metal god could weld this
up in one day...................
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: New EV Project
> >I don't totally agree with Tom. He is right if you leave it as is. But
if
> >you use a full faring and I mean a full fairing covering the whole bike
it
> >shouldn't be hard to do it at 48v as long as the hills aren't too bad and
> >you only want to go about 60mph. I have a fairing that will work and
only
> >needs 3hp to push it 60 mph. Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> Check out the pages on Cedric Lynch's electric streamliner. They are
> on Paul Compton's website ( http://www.sciroccoev.co.uk ). Cedric's
> is 48V using YTs and gets about 80 miles per charge at 40 MPH. It's
> super light and fully faired.
> --
>
>
> Auf wiedersehen!
>
> ______________________________________________________
> "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
>
> "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
> of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
> women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
>
> "..No."
>
> "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
>
> -Real Genius
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing people forget is because of their size they are numerically a
better target. Small cars get hit less. This study was done on Cadilacs
more than 20 years ago. The more area the more chance of being hit.
Lawrence Rhodes..............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Batie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: (OT) EV-1, Steve Tanner@ vbiz Iink
> On Sat, Jan 11, 2003 at 01:40:32PM -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA)
wrote:
> > The parking lot where I work probably has fewer SUVs than most (owing to
> > both the prevailing culture and the salaries), but of the 5 who do have
> > them, only one ever carries anything large in it.
>
> I never (or rarely) carried anything to work in mine either, but that
doesn't
> mean I don't have need of the carrying capacity.
>
> > A person who bought an SUV to p**s someone off is a hazard.
>
> A person who bought an SUV solely to annoy someone is a hazard to their
> own checkbook and an idiot. More than likely they bought it for a reason
> and said what they said to p**s someone off.
>
> > For those of us who drive small cars, including light EVs, large
vehicles
> > that don't absorb their share of collision energy are a hazard.
>
> The fact that there are a range of sizes of vehicles on the road is no
> reason to demonize them; semi's are far more dangerous than anything else
> in terms of size disparity issues, but it would be ludicrous to try to get
> them banned. Accidents are bad regardless of the size of the vehicle and
> a good driver keeps an eye out to avoid them even when someone else tries
> to create one. Small cars have the advantage of being more maneuverable
> too.
>
> > But when a person chooses an oversized vehicle as a daily commuter, and
> > doesn't really need all that extra space, that person increases the
danger
> > to us with no real practical benefit for society. Quite the opposite.
>
> For most people having multiple cars so they can drive the best fitted for
> the purpose is impractical. Much as I would like an EV to run around town
> in, it's not in the cards soon. Any SUV basher is more than welcome to
buy
> me an EV.
>
> > Second, in a collision this vehicle will do more damage and cost society
in
> > property damage, lives, and dollars.
>
> This a strawman. I've never been in a collision. If someone else causes
> it, frankly, I don't much care how much it costs them. If the SUV driver
> causes, they and their insurance company are responsible for it, not
"society".
>
> > Excessive vehicle's size is a burden on society.
>
> There are far worse burdens that we accept in a free society. Freedom
only
> means anything when applied to something you don't like.
>
> > 1. A purchase tax based on the cost to society of its manufacture. This
> > would include environmental damage in the assembly and disposal of the
> > vehicle, and the use of raw materials. (To be fair, we should also make
the
> > nearly forgotten gas-guzzler tax apply to trucks.)
>
> Something like this should be done for all products, not just vehicles,
but
> determing the true cost would be such a political process, it could never
be
> done fairly. As a first approximation, I think manufacturers should have
to
> take back all products they've made for disposal and/or recycling, sorta
like
> pop bottles. They'll quickly make them much more reuseable and
recyclable.
>
> > 2. A carbon tax based on fuel usage as determined by EPA rating. This
will
> > obviously be low for EVs.
>
> That would not be unreasonable.
>
> > 3. A road and injury tax based on weight. This could be a problem for
EVs,
> > but perhaps an EV credit could be provided.
>
> This I disagree with, as it makes good drivers pay for the mistakes of bad
> drivers. We have a system in place already to handle this issue: it's
called
> insurance. A bad driver in a small car is much more of a hazard than a
good
> driver in a big car.
>
> > These taxes would be
> > adjusted according to the benefit society derives from each vehicle.
>
> Do you *really* want to try to create a process to define "benefit to
> society"? I don't think you could get two people to agree, much less a
> committee or the whole of society. And in fact, I think the task is
> inherently impossible because there will always be cases of winners vs
> losers, some people valuing this, others that. I would not want to be
> anywhere near a society that tried to do something like that.
>
>
> What is reasonable to do is determine where the real costs are (namely
fuel
> and pollution), and make sure those costs are accurately reflected in the
> operational cost. Fuel will take care of itself in the market, and an
> emissions tax would take care of the other. I'd dearly love for all the
> badly tuned diesels to get taxed according to the stench they put out.
And
> I'll bet all the SUV bashers out there wouldn't say a word one if I was
still
> driving the 64 chevy pickup I used to have, despite getting 2/3rds the gas
> mileage, no catylytic converter, far worse brakes, no seatbelts and a
metal
> dash with a ridge that couldn't be better designed to crack a skull in a
> collision. Oh, and very rigid, sturdy, non-shock-absorbing steel bumpers.
> Despite all that going against it, no one was ever injured in or by it in
> the 250,000 miles and over 20 years my parents and I owned it.
>
> --
> Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
> alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
> PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
> 27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had this problem with Rudmann regs and all it was was user error. I had
the pots set the wrong direction. I just took a screw driver and rotated
them the other way to turn them off and the problem went away. None of my
undervoltage red lights ever have gone on again. I think some of the regs
have a pot that is reversed for the undrevoltage or for some reason I had to
run the pots back the other way so they won't come on. They don't always
reset with charging so don't charge unless the red light is off. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 2003 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
> The batricidal maniac finally hooked up the regs. I drove around
> enough to drain the batteries (they actually dipped below 10.7
> per 12 volt battery momentarily under load), made sure that the
> switches on the PFC-50 were set according to Rich's instructions
> (1,3, and 4 on, the rest off) and fired her up. Now 5 of the
> regs were showing undervoltage when I started up the PFC. I'm
> presuming that the charger throttled itself back here; for some
> reason yet to be discerned, the e-meter does not show any
> positive amps, though it shows negative amps well enough when I
> was driving. Voltage rose quickly from 98 to 103 (96 volt
> pack)and slowly after that. A couple of hours later, the blue
> light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
> but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
> Individual voltages on those batteries were
> 13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash. The
> temperature in the battery box was only 12C - it looks like we'll
> need a few more feet of heat tape to fight the prairie chill.
>
> I reset the undervoltage regs by disconnecting each for a moment
> (with the charger off) then when they were all reconnected I
> fired up the charger again. Within seconds, the voltage limit
> led came on and two of the regs started flashing green slowly.
>
> How do I get this charger / reg combination to equalize the
> batteries? If I understand correctly, the ideal circumstance
> would be that the charger backs off when the first reg starts
> bypassing, and keeps going till the last one reaches its voltage
> limit and starts flashing green.
>
> The batteries are old tired Hawker 26Ah Genesis in buddy pairs.
> I'm thinking of breaking up the pack and just running with the
> best 8 of them; I don't seem to get more range with the 16 of
> them than I did a few test runs ago with just 8, but on the other
> hand I probably have not charged them properly yet.
>
> Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
> batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
> over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
>
> Still, it's a heap of fun driving around in my unlicensed open
> car (after the second run I put the windshield on), even at -18C
> with a 15 km/hr headwind. The ev grin is literally frozen on my
> face.
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
>
> Who needs cooling fans, anyway?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks very much, Joe. That was an original. Sorry about the
"Re" - the message started out as a reply to Rich with subject
changed but I thought that it might have more general
applicability since the PFC chargers seem to be flying off the
shelves and on-line documentation is for an earlier version. I
hate to pester people with phone calls.
Comments inserted into abbreviated message
Joe Smalley wrote:
Why was this a reply?
I never saw the original and I did not see anything quoted in the message.
The trim pot is apparently set for 103 volts. If the Yellow LED on the front
of the charger came on, it confirms it.
The trim pot was set for 117 volts. This reading is mysterious -
the blue timer light was on, but not the yellow voltage limit
light. This is the only time that has happened - other times
when the voltage light comes on the e-meter reads 117 volts and
drops back only when the blue timer light comes on steady.
The next time I charged, the voltage had fallen back to 106 volts
a couple of hours after the blue light came on. From this I
conclude that the charger stops charging when the timer light
comes on steady. Is this correct?
A couple of hours later, the blue
light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
Individual voltages on those batteries were
13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash.
Apparently the acceptance voltage set with the trim pot on the front of the
charger stopped the voltage rise before any regulators came up to voltage.
If you divide 103 by 8 batteries, the average battery voltage is only 12.8
volts. This is not nearly enough voltage to top them off and get the green
LEDs blinking.
That explanation works for me, but the average voltage was more
like 13.28. I guess that the undervoltage light didn't go off
becaue the voltage in those batteries never got high enough for
the regs to bypass. I have not checked the undervoltage setting
on the regs - they are at whatever the factory settings were. The
batteries went undervoltage because I drained them too much.
Equalization and topping them off are two different things.
Thanks for the detailed explanation
Did you test the batteries individually before installing them in the car so
the best battery is paired with the worst battery therefore the sum of the
pairs is as consistent as possible throughout the pack?
Um, no... I should know how to test them ... seem to recall
something from an old message... How about if I run a load, say
some lights or something and watch how long they run before the
voltage sags?
Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
You haven't damaged them with the charger yet. If you don't get too
aggressive, it won't happen.
The damage comes from heavy use of the "go" pedal, as I see it.
Do you have the undervoltage remote optocoupler hooked up to a "lift" light
to know when the undervolt threshold is tripped on any battery?
Undervoltage remote optocoupler? I don't recall seeing anything
about that. Please forgive my ignorance.
Still, it's a heap of fun driving around in my unlicensed open
car (after the second run I put the windshield on), even at -18C
with a 15 km/hr headwind. The ev grin is literally frozen on my
face.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Who needs cooling fans, anyway?
People with a lot of heat in their cars when the park them in the sun.
I forgot to put the smiley face after that last question..
A comment about ignorance vs stupidity. I'm ignorant about the
charger, regs and battery husbandry in general. But stupidity -
I'll give you stupidity. I was framing a question to the list
asking why my e-meter only shows negative current, and remains at
0.0 when the charger is on. Doh! I pictured the connections in
my mind's eye: Battery negative to fuse, fuse to shunt - other
side of shunt to controller. Charger to fuse side of shunt. Doh!
Doh! Doh! How could I have done that? No charge juice goes
through the shunt at all. I knew that...
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now, is there a chance that keeping the batteries that hot will bring
their capacity back up near full? I probably need about 10% more than
they can deliver when at 60 deg F.
Yellow tops are quite sensitive to temperature. Raising the
temperature can make a BIG difference in capacity.
I'm still not sure if I will bother though. Running the warmers off the
pack makes charging more awkward. And may not buy me enough time to be
worth the effort.
The most clever way to run the heaters is to have them switch on
after the charging cycle is complete. In this way, you don't have to worry
about thermal runaway or overheating the batteries on a fast charge. Also,
the batteries warm up a bit during the charge, so you can save a bit of
electricity by waiting until after the charge to bring them up to
temperature. The big advantage to waiting is that you don't hog as much
line current by running the charger and the heater at the same time.
You can look around for cheaper alternatives, but KTA and Wilde
EVolutions sell battery heaters that will do exactly what you want without
the hassle of re-inventing the wheel yourself.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I
dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:13 AM 1/12/2003 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The most clever way to run the heaters is to have them switch on
after the charging cycle is complete. In this way, you don't have to
worry about thermal runaway or overheating the batteries on a fast
charge. Also, the batteries warm up a bit during the charge, so you can
save a bit of electricity by waiting until after the charge to bring them
up to temperature. The big advantage to waiting is that you don't hog as
much line current by running the charger and the heater at the same time.
I'm not worried about line current, but thermal runaway may be a
problem. Also, I have the Temp probe on my Zivan NG3 - and I don't know
how it will react to a 100deg+ battery! I'm also one of these people that
considers a "go out and fiddle/switch/check on the charge every 30 minutes"
to be a broken system. I need to be able to plug it in and forget it.
You can look around for cheaper alternatives, but KTA and Wilde
EVolutions sell battery heaters that will do exactly what you want
without the hassle of re-inventing the wheel yourself.
Last I checked, they did NOT have something like that.
What was available was either rather expensive, and/or not temp regulated.
I already have a battery heater setup that works, I'm just going to
overdrive it to run the batteries a LOT hotter.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> The most clever way to run the heaters is to have them switch on
>> after the charging cycle is complete.
A problem with heating them after charging is that then they won't be
quite full. Cold batteries accept less charge. So if you are trying to
maximize amphour capacity, they should be at their final temperature
when you stop charging.
>> The big advantage to waiting is that you don't hog as much line
>> current by running the charger and the heater at the same time.
This shouldn't be a problem, as the last few hours of charging will be
at a low current anyway. Of course, this assumes that your pack was
already fairly close to the desired final temperature when you started,
and that your heater wattage is high enough so you really don't need to
run the heaters for all that long.
John Lussmyer wrote:
> thermal runaway may be a problem. I have the Temp probe on my Zivan
> NG3 - and I don't know how it will react to a 100deg+ battery!
You should find out. Certainly 100 deg.F temperatures are perfectly
possible, even without battery heaters, so the charger *should* handle
it correctly. If it can't handle it, it's broken! (Which is also
possible).
> I'm also one of these people that considers a "go out and
> fiddle/switch/check on it every 30 minutes" to be a broken
> system. I need to be able to plug it in and forget it.
Oh, I see -- you don't work around PCs :-)
>> You can look around for cheaper alternatives, but KTA and Wilde
>> EVolutions sell battery heaters that will do exactly what you want
>> without the hassle of re-inventing the wheel yourself.
> Last I checked, they did NOT have something like that...
> I already have a battery heater setup that works, I'm just going
> to overdrive it to run the batteries a LOT hotter.
The beauty of the self-regulating wire is that it is a simple system.
But if you want to change the self-regulating temperature, then it isn't
going to be simple any more. For instance, if you over-voltage the wire,
it may fail or not regulate properly and cause a meltdown or fire.
Maybe we should look for some different wire that will self-regulate at
a higher temperature?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:22 PM 1/12/2003 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
The beauty of the self-regulating wire is that it is a simple system.
But if you want to change the self-regulating temperature, then it isn't
going to be simple any more. For instance, if you over-voltage the wire,
it may fail or not regulate properly and cause a meltdown or fire.
Thats the one thing I worry about. I did run the cable for an hour or so
at about 170VDC, and it got hot and then maintained that temp. It should
be able to exist at that temp, as a hot roof could easily exceed that.
Maybe we should look for some different wire that will self-regulate at
a higher temperature?
Would be nice to find. The one manufacturer I found last time I looked
wanted full design specs for the entire system before they would even give
me a price range. i.e. don't want small purchases.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lisa Jones wrote:
>
> Dear Lee,
> Hello, I'm one of those RAV4 EV drivers. I love
my
> ev. I have three kids that I have to take to school
> and I can drive without guilt. The incidence of so
> many diseases, asthma, cancer, lung disease etc.,
> reminds me that we have a duty to ourselves and the
> planet to drive electric and or any other
> non-polluting alternative.
> Now that Toyota has pulled the plug, what in your
> opinion should we do?
Sell it to me? :-)
Here in Minnesota, NO commercial EVs were ever made
available. I don't
even think any of the recent batch of auto company EVs
were ever shown
here at all. To the average Minnesotan, they never
existed. I've had to
build all my EVs myself.
Seriously, I am deeply saddened by the way this most
recent EV
boom-then-bust cycle is playing out. I've been driving
EVs for over 25
years, and every 5-10 years there has been another
cycle. First,
everyone gets excited about EVs, then a few actually
make it to market,
then they are pulled back and the pundits slander
them, then nothing at
all is heard until the next cycle.
This time, more EVs were produced, they worked better
than ever, and
they were made by mainstream companies like GM,
Toyota, Honda, Ford,
Chrysler, etc. that really had the power to mass
produce them if they
desired. As skeptical as I am, I really hoped that
finally, this time,
EVs would make it.
But, the demise of EVs has been incredibly fast, and
the rhetoric from
the critics murderously harsh. The EV crash is so bad
that it is even
driving the small EV parts suppliers out of business;
and without them,
even hobbyists will have a hard time building and
driving EVs.
If you can, hang onto your RAV4 EV. It's a piece of
history, like the
old Tucker, or Dymaxion, Cord, or Pierce-Arrow
automobiles -- examples
of what cars could have been if they weren't driven
out of the market.
Being that it is an EV, it has the potential to keep
running far longer
than a conventional car. The main barrier will be
Toyota's willingness
to supply parts or service information. I can well
imagine that a 5
cent
part will fail, and Toyota will refuse to fix it, and
won't tell you
what that part is so you can fix it. The only hope is
to find a GOOD
mechanic who chooses to specialize in these unique
vehicles, and will
spend the time to reverse-engineer the car so it can
be fixed. This is
not as unlikely as it might seem -- this is exactly
what happens with
virtually all unique and collectible cars.
I envy you for at least having the chance to drive it
as long as you
did. Best wishes!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still
can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect
offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in
everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets
in - Leonard Cohen
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Follow-up
I shopped around for a good place to take my Blazer in.
Some of the places had one overloaded person at the front
desk, who had to handle the entire store while the
mechanics were doing their own thing in the parking lot.
After several greasy hand shakes, I decided to go to the
Firestone store in Sunnyvale. They already knew my Blazer
and had no problem working with an EV when they put my new
tires on.
The brake system check showed I still have 30% of my
front pads and rear shoes. But they showed me that the
proportion valve was leaking, and the mechanic also
recommended that I replace the brake cylinder.
The brakes could be adjusted, but the real problem was the
loss of brake fluid and leaking proportion valve made for
weak brakes.
The proportion valve had to be removed and reworked at
another shop down the road. I was quoted $500 and four
hours. I needed this work done, so I went for it.
While I hung out in their waiting area, I got a lot done:
replaced the cooked connectors on one of my power extensions
cords, checked the want ads (nothing except a security guard
job - stick'em up!), listened to the man next to me snore
while having to smell his feet (he took his shoes off),
hearing how 'Central Valley' the store owner was (if you
made racial jokes like that in Hi-Tech: you are walked out
the door - but it is an auto store, what do you expect),
hearing how many naive customers are given the 'we'll give
you a special discount if you sign up for our credit card'
(I wasn't offered that, I think they knew I would see
through it), and finished a third of my thick A+
Certification book (looks like I will have to dumb-down
to pass that test).
Towards the end, I chatted with the store manager (the owner
had gone home). He said he saw I had the people skills needed
to be a manger, and said if my Intel interview did not
pan-out, I should look him up (I could sell - but my senior
said I was 'too honest' to be a salesman).
They held true to their price and time required, the brakes
were now safe to use while driving. Brake issue resolved.
Now I am (almost) ready for the Intel interview on Wednesday
for the contract PC test position they have. I am getting
with Dean @ Intel to show me the EV charging they have at
the Santa Clara Intel site.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not worried about line current, but thermal runaway may be a
problem. Also, I have the Temp probe on my Zivan NG3 - and I don't know
how it will react to a 100deg+ battery! I'm also one of these people that
considers a "go out and fiddle/switch/check on the charge every 30
minutes" to be a broken system. I need to be able to plug it in and forget it.
You can do that. The NG3 has a set of contacts for "charge
complete". Connect the heater relay to these contacts. Simple.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had POSTed how my range is suffering when I drive on the
rain wet highway. I noticed that if I drive on city streets
(Middlefield Road) to get home, even though it is stop and
go, I use less energy. Perhaps there is less loss on the
city streets?
But when accelerating from red light to red light to keep up
with traffic, I smelled hot battery cables. My high current
draw was heating cables .
Saturday, when I drove South to the San Jose EAA meeting I
purposely drove faster than usual. Instead of driving at 55
mph drawing 100 amp at 125 VDC (on a 132 VDC pack), I turned
the current up to 150 amps.
Not that much more current but after 25 miles, when I pulled
into the parking spot, I smelled the hot plastic cable
insulation.
I tapped on the meeting room window and motioned the members
to come out and gander at my hot-n-toasty cables.
The batteries were warm but not hot. Most of the rear
battery posts and cables were hot to the touch. These are
the original cables from when the EV was made ten years ago
by Solar Electric (now defunct).
I believe it is time to make new cables. Most of my cables
are 00 gauge with automotive lug connectors.
The other cables were replaced when Mike Slominski changed
my pack voltage from 120 VDC T125's to 132 VDC T145s. Those
do not have automotive connectors, they have lug connectors
(flat with a hole in the center).
Batteries now come as 'universal posts' unless you pay extra
and wait. These are a funky half-n-half wannbe battery
posts. They aren't quite a round post because the center is
cut away to be flat with a hole through it.
I plan to go buy 00 gauge cable and use the flat lug
connectors to build replacement battery cables. I will
borrow a cable crimper from one of our local gurus and buddy
up with a guy who will need to know how to make cables
anyway (he is building an E-cycle with a sidecar of
batteries).
I am concerned that these tired cables are wasting my
energy, reducing my range and could melt a post.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted..
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus (long and technical reply)
> Comments inserted into abbreviated message
>
> The trim pot was set for 117 volts. This reading is mysterious -
> the blue timer light was on, but not the yellow voltage limit
> light. This is the only time that has happened - other times
> when the voltage light comes on the e-meter reads 117 volts and
> drops back only when the blue timer light comes on steady.
> The next time I charged, the voltage had fallen back to 106 volts
> a couple of hours after the blue light came on. From this I
> conclude that the charger stops charging when the timer light
> comes on steady. Is this correct?
Correct.
> >>A couple of hours later, the blue
> >>light was on steady, meaning that the timer had done its time,
> >>but the 5 regs still had their red undervoltage leds on.
> >>Individual voltages on those batteries were
> >>13.26-13.29. No regs were green nor had I seen any flash.
> >
> > Apparently the acceptance voltage set with the trim pot on the front of
the
> > charger stopped the voltage rise before any regulators came up to
voltage.
> > If you divide 103 by 8 batteries, the average battery voltage is only
12.8
> > volts. This is not nearly enough voltage to top them off and get the
green
> > LEDs blinking.
> >
> That explanation works for me, but the average voltage was more
> like 13.28. I guess that the undervoltage light didn't go off
> becaue the voltage in those batteries never got high enough for
> the regs to bypass. I have not checked the undervoltage setting
> on the regs - they are at whatever the factory settings were. The
> batteries went undervoltage because I drained them too much.
Concur.
Concur.
> > Equalization and topping them off are two different things.
> >
>
>
> Thanks for the detailed explanation
>
> >
> >
> > Did you test the batteries individually before installing them in the
car so
> > the best battery is paired with the worst battery therefore the sum of
the
> > pairs is as consistent as possible throughout the pack?
>
> Um, no... I should know how to test them ... seem to recall
> something from an old message... How about if I run a load, say
> some lights or something and watch how long they run before the
> voltage sags?
Bingo!
Recharge them individually before connecting them together again.
> >>Bit of a learning curve here. I can see how us neophytes kill
> >>batteries through ignorance. I'm constantly feeling like I'm in
> >>over my head. At least I'm learning on a pack I got for free.
> >
> > You haven't damaged them with the charger yet. If you don't get too
> > aggressive, it won't happen.
> >
>
> The damage comes from heavy use of the "go" pedal, as I see it.
You can hurt them on either end of the cycle. You just were a long way from
hurting them on the top end.
> > Do you have the undervoltage remote optocoupler hooked up to a "lift"
light
> > to know when the undervolt threshold is tripped on any battery?
> >
> Undervoltage remote optocoupler? I don't recall seeing anything
> about that. Please forgive my ignorance.
It is in the charger but the instructions for using it never made it to the
manual.
> A comment about ignorance vs stupidity. I'm ignorant about the
> charger, regs and battery husbandry in general. But stupidity -
> I'll give you stupidity. I was framing a question to the list
> asking why my e-meter only shows negative current, and remains at
> 0.0 when the charger is on. Doh! I pictured the connections in
> my mind's eye: Battery negative to fuse, fuse to shunt - other
> side of shunt to controller. Charger to fuse side of shunt. Doh!
> Doh! Doh! How could I have done that? No charge juice goes
> through the shunt at all. I knew that...
A lot of our mistakes become obvious if we just take a minute to think about
it. Everyone of us live and learn. As long as you don't make the same
mistake repeatedly, you can consider yourself an intelligent life form.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check your undervoltage cutout. They can be set so low (0.8 volts per cell)
that they never come on.
If you put the negative meter probe on TP1, you can check the undervoltage
cutout on TP3 and the reg set voltage on TP2 with the positive meter probe.
The voltage you read is the volts per cell. If you have 12 volt regs, you
need to multiply the number by 6 to get the battery threshold. For 8 volt
regs, multiply by 4. For 6 volt regs, multiply by 3.
There is some uncertainty in the threshold because the regs are built with
5% resistors. After the coarse setting is done using a meter on the test
points, you should trim them to the exact value with the green LED blinking.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: Ticket to ride the Reg Bus
> I had this problem with Rudmann regs and all it was was user error. I had
> the pots set the wrong direction. I just took a screw driver and rotated
> them the other way to turn them off and the problem went away. None of my
> undervoltage red lights ever have gone on again. I think some of the regs
> have a pot that is reversed for the undrevoltage or for some reason I had
to
> run the pots back the other way so they won't come on. They don't always
> reset with charging so don't charge unless the red light is off. Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The PFC-20 controller presently being shipped has a two stage algorithm.
Stage one:
It can trickle charge.
It can equalize charge.
It can bulk charge.
Stage two:
It can acceptance charge.
It can float charge.
It can be set for any combination of one "stage one" and one "stage two". If
you set it up to do a bulk charge and an acceptance charge (like most normal
users), you will need to alter the settings to get it to do something else
and then set it back when you are done.
There are some users attempting to build a more sophisticated controller but
I have not observed any working units (yet).
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Evercel MB80's won't fit!
> Can a PFC-20 be configured to do a float stage?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce Parmenter wrote:
I had POSTed how my range is suffering when I drive on the
rain wet highway. I noticed that if I drive on city streets
(Middlefield Road) to get home, even though it is stop and
go, I use less energy. Perhaps there is less loss on the city streets?
But when accelerating from red light to red light to keep up
with traffic, I smelled hot battery cables. My high current
draw was heating cables .
Saturday, when I drove South to the San Jose EAA meeting I
purposely drove faster than usual. Instead of driving at 55
mph drawing 100 amp at 125 VDC (on a 132 VDC pack), I turned
the current up to 150 amps.
Not that much more current but after 25 miles, when I pulled
into the parking spot, I smelled the hot plastic cable
insulation.
I tapped on the meeting room window and motioned the members
to come out and gander at my hot-n-toasty cables.
The batteries were warm but not hot. Most of the rear
battery posts and cables were hot to the touch. These are
the original cables from when the EV was made ten years ago
by Solar Electric (now defunct).
I believe it is time to make new cables. Most of my cables
are 00 gauge with automotive lug connectors.
The other cables were replaced when Mike Slominski changed
my pack voltage from 120 VDC T125's to 132 VDC T145s. Those
do not have automotive connectors, they have lug connectors
(flat with a hole in the center).
Batteries now come as 'universal posts' unless you pay extra
and wait. These are a funky half-n-half wannbe battery
posts. They aren't quite a round post because the center is
cut away to be flat with a hole through it.
I plan to go buy 00 gauge cable and use the flat lug
connectors to build replacement battery cables. I will
borrow a cable crimper from one of our local gurus and buddy
up with a guy who will need to know how to make cables
anyway (he is building an E-cycle with a sidecar of
batteries).
I am concerned that these tired cables are wasting my
energy, reducing my range and could melt a post.
Hi Bruce, most of the road going EVs I have worked on all use 2/0 cable and
heavy duty automotive style terminal clamps. You may want to consider
upgrading to 2/0 if you a replacing cables anyway, especially in a heavy
truck.
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
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