EV Digest 2549
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) ZAP L.U.V. cost
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Preliminary BB600 Report
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) OT Low value resistors (was Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacemen
t?)
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT Low value resistors (was Fair Radio Charger ammeter
replacemen t?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV talk/lawn mowers (battery electric landscaping)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Preliminary BB600 Report
by James Wolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: OT Low value resistors
by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Clean Renewable Electricity
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Clean Renewable Electricity
by josh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Preliminary BB600 Report
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Jan 2003 at 13:03, Steve wrote:
> Doesn't Idle Capacity just refer to the *capability* of a plant to generate
> power during otherwise idle times?
Now, understand I'm not a power engineer ... but this is how I understand it
(wish I could remember where I read this).
Because overnight loads are very low, power plants loaf along at reduced
efficiency. This seems to have something to do with trading off efficiency
against the amount of fuel required to shut down and bring up a generator (I
told you I'm not an engineer!). The upshot is that anything that consumes
power at night ONLY is improving the plant's efficiency. (And anything that
adds power to the grid during the day, such as intertied PVs, also improves
it.)
The further contention is that a limited number of EVs (I don't know what
that number is) charged overnight would have a negligible effect on the
actual amount of fuel used and emissions released.
I apologize: my memory's vague, and I can't find a reference. Anybody here
know more about this? Can anyone support or refute it with authority?
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Jan 21, 2003 at 01:10:47PM -0600, Andre Blanchard wrote:
> Now and electric would not likely be used for pulling a heavy load over
> mountains but you may have to go down a large hill from time to time and it
> is nice to have more then one means of keeping the speed down.
What happens with regen systems when the batteries are full? To use it
for braking, you'd need a resistive load to dump the energy into, which
I believe trains do have...
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Part of the problem is that it is difficult to come to a common agreement
on what a "zero emisson source" is. Do you consider the way that the source
was created in this determination? For example, if the solar cell manufacturing
plant uses electricity that comes from a coal-fired plant, can the factory
produce zero emission source products? Soon, it becomes a ridiculous circle.
Perhaps a better way is to strive for a minimal emission source...
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: With Friends Like These. . .
>Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:12:02 -0800
>
>
>
>Good point. I agree that driving EVs could effectively be a truely zero
>emission experience *if* those EVs were charged from only zero emission
>sources.
>
>Anyone have any data on how likely that could be? Is there any
>consideration by the utilities for cleaning the generation of electricity
>during off peak times? It seems one would probably have to take
>photovoltaics out of the equation for generation of power in the evening
>but
>that most other means could be factored in.
>
>It would be nice to have some hard figures that we could use in the
>"elsewhere emission" debates although I admit it would be hard to predict
>them accurately.
>
>Steve
>
>> Not saying this is how things are done, but there is enough excess
>> capacity at night that you could pick the cleanest plant(s) to make
>> your electricity. During the day the system is often nearly maxed out
>> (witness California), so you can't really pick just the cleanest
>> power plants, you have to take what is available, dirty or not.
>>
>> --- Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Doesn't Idle Capacity just refer to the *capability* of a plant to
>> > generate
>> > power during otherwise idle times? It's my understanding that
>> > there is
>> > indeed enough unused capacity during the evenings to charge a great
>> > many EVs
>> > without requiring upgrades to the infrastructure. However, as far
>> > as
>> > emissions goes, it's not as if the plant produces the same
>> > pollution whether
>> > it's employing that unused capacity or not, right? That is, won't
>> > charging
>> > EVs, even in the evening, still require the utilities to produce
>> > the
>> > additional emissions that come from generating the power the EVs
>> > require to
>> > charge?
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
on this site (techTV's best product choices from the recent CES)
http://www.techtv.com/news/ces2003/story/0,24195,3413910,00.html
they list the ZAP Light Utility Vehicle (the freeway-capable,
not-yet-available, 240 miles @ 70mph vehicle) as having a cost of
$25,000... maybe they aren't getting that sweet deal on the batteries,
after all
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On 21 Jan 2003 at 9:04, Edward Ang wrote:
>
> > Also, I was seeing the famous memory effect �
> voltage
> > drops sharply after a certain point.
>
> I may be misunderstanding what you're trying to say,
> but I don't think
> what you're seeing is "memory effect." Memory
> effect is a more or less
> pathological cell condition caused by repeated
> discharge to ^exactly^ the
> same point, no more, no less. I mean ^exactly^ to
> the fraction of an amp-
> hour. This almost never happens in real life,
> period.
>
> So you aren't experiencing memory effect, just
> reduced capacity.
I think this is generally known as the "memory
effect", isn't it? Since my commute was pretty
constant, I experienced a sharp voltage drop when I
tried to drive a longer trip than my commute. It was
"erased" the 3 times I conditioned them down to 0V per
cell. But, it was a pain to discharge 158 individual
cells to 0V.
I was seeing this before the long period of
inactivity.
>
> Periodically (especially after a period of
> inactivity -- the cells', not
> yours <g>) you have to re-commission nicads. This
> begins with a controlled
> C/20 discharge (some recommend to zero volts, but
> only if you have access to
> the individual cells; batteries should not be
> discharged to zero). This is
> followed by a C/10 charge for 15 hours with
> temperature the only limitation.
> This procedure will usually restore normal
> capacity. (Don't you wish it
> were this easy with lead batteries?)
>
> In fact what you describe above is a normal
> characteristic of nicads. They
> hold a very stable voltage until just before they
> poop out, then the voltage
> drops like a rock. Forget 0.9 volts; when you see
> 1.0 vpc, you'd better
> find a receptacle Right Now!
The spec I got says under high load. I should expect
to see down to 0.9Vpc. I will have to do more
experiment on this. These are 30Ah cell. So, 100A is
at 3.3C rate and 150A is at 5C rate.
>
> The only reliable way I know of to determine SOC
> with nicads is an amp-hour
> counter. Voltage is just too stable. This in my
> book is an advantage.
>
> > The battery spec says to
> > stop charging after putting back 130-140%.
>
> That sounds high to me. Saft recommends replacing
> all the amp-hours
> consumed at C/5 constant current, then adding
> another 15% at C/20 constant
> current. Saft used to recommend 20% overcharge for
> the older cells and
> modules. It's hard to imagine that yours would
> require that much more.
My cells were manufactured in 1980 (not bad for
23-year-old cells). So, I guess they are the older
type. I am going to try different amount of
overcharge.
Thanks for the info on Saft NiCads. I should give it
a try also. With my PFC-20, I am charging at 19A
(0.6C) rate. But, temperature did not increase much.
I will monitor the temperature carefully. It is nice
to know I could get 80% in 1 1/2 hours!
Ed Ang
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Your on a rock in a pond :-) The edges are kinda steep. One day you
may want to haul a loaded truck and trailer across the ferry. Make
sure you can haul it to a stop while descending the grades around the
edges. Regen would be a great help here. Water cooling (motor and
controller) would help. One of Victors 45kW motors is about 2 ADC 9"
motors in continuous power handling. The peak power to weight ratio
(provided you run at 336v) should be able to match the Red Beastie up
to about 9200lbs (it ran a DCP 450 amp controller at 120v and weighed
5330lbs). I bet the water cooled system would allow for double the
continuous rated power longer than an aircooled system, Victor likely
could get the numbers.
Buying a used electric Bus might be a way to get a deal on high power
drivetrain (either AC or DC).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:09 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Paul G stated:
Buying a used electric Bus might be a way to get a deal on high power
drivetrain (either AC or DC).
One question on that, aren't the motors in Electric Busses kinda HUGE and
HEAVY?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:09 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Paul G stated:
Your on a rock in a pond :-) The edges are kinda steep. One day you may
want to haul a loaded truck and trailer across the ferry. Make sure you
can haul it to a stop while descending the grades around the edges. Regen
would be a great help here. Water cooling (motor and
While regen would be nice, I don't see it as any better than brakes for
stopping me on these Steep, but short, hills. Last time I checked, my
trailer brakes could stop the truck by themselves. All 3 axles have
electric brakes, which can be "applied" by a switch under the
dashboard. (Of course they also work via the brake pedal.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grannes, Dean wrote:
> the meter goes to 20A and says 50mV full scale, so R=V/I which
> means 50mV/20A = 2.5milliohms. Is that right?
Yes!
> I don't have a good feel for these things, but would have thought
> that the connecting wire and solder connections would be on about
> that order.
Yes again. One can make a shunt out of a short piece of wire or metal.
However, their resistance will change with temperature, so they aren't
very accurate. A proper shunt is a resistor with a zero temperature
coefficient.
> Can one go out and get a 2.5 milliohm resistor?
Yes. Note, however that it needs to be a POWER resistor. P = R X I^2 =
0.0025 ohms x 20^2 = 1 watt.
> I'm heading out to the electronic surplus store later today
Low-value resistors like this are used in power supplies, motor
controls, high power audio amps, etc. so they are available as
replacement parts. Or, you can order them new from any of the big
electronics distributors.
A surplus dealer may well have lots of low-value resistors, but it is a
matter of luck if they have the exact value you need. Be prepared to
compromise. You can buy several larger values, and parallel them to get
what you want (for example, four 0.01 ohm resistors in parallel). Or you
can get a slightly larger value, add a small pot in series with the
meter movement, and adjust the pot so it still reads correctly.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Water cooling does amazing things. One can easily underestimate
ability of water to carry away huge amounts of heat quick.
Ask Otmar or Lee.
As of regen just being "nice" I see more benefit of it in recharging
than braking. Especially for heavy vehicle consuming lots of Wh,
everything you can get back "for free" is not just a nice bonus but
might be a matter or making it to the destination or not...
All, please understand I'm not marketing here. In fact, I believe no
info from me on EVDL resulted a system sale. It's just a food for
thought, info to make more educated decisions on the drive system for
successful EV.
Simple example - I have 4 damaged (reversed) batteries
in ACRX right now, 27 total (well, 29, two LiIons in series, but this
isn't relevant for the topic). I take streets to go to work
(22 miles round trip) as on freeway no longer can make it with
this pack. On the streets I barely can get home
without regen, especially because I live up on the hill and must get
there when the pack is empty. Regen enables me to recover some energy
so I can make it home without really slowing down and risking to
reverse even more cells on that hill.
Granted, this isn't common situation, but to me at the moment
single fact of having regen means keep taking EV to work rather
than ICE. BTW, my regen allows *complete* stop and I can even
roll back a little. Majority of the days I don't touch brake pedal
at all, which is very satisfying.
Victor
John Lussmyer wrote:
>
> At 05:09 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Paul G stated:
> >Your on a rock in a pond :-) The edges are kinda steep. One day you may
> >want to haul a loaded truck and trailer across the ferry. Make sure you
> >can haul it to a stop while descending the grades around the edges. Regen
> >would be a great help here. Water cooling (motor and
>
> While regen would be nice, I don't see it as any better than brakes for
> stopping me on these Steep, but short, hills. Last time I checked, my
> trailer brakes could stop the truck by themselves. All 3 axles have
> electric brakes, which can be "applied" by a switch under the
> dashboard. (Of course they also work via the brake pedal.)
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:01 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
Granted, this isn't common situation, but to me at the moment
single fact of having regen means keep taking EV to work rather
than ICE. BTW, my regen allows *complete* stop and I can even
roll back a little. Majority of the days I don't touch brake pedal
at all, which is very satisfying.
With my commute in my Sparrow, regen would probably make it MUCH easier on
my pack. (The 1 mile downhill just before work would help a lot!)
I've been tempted to figure out just how hard it would be to convert my
Sparrow to AC....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Low-value resistors like this are used in power supplies, motor
> controls, high power audio amps, etc. so they are available as
> replacement parts. Or, you can order them new from any of the big
> electronics distributors.
Sorry for yet another OT question, but maybe Lee or somebody else
can answer this one:
What is the point of a zero-ohm resistor? One of them came in a
kitset that I bought. It has a single black stripe, and the doco
that came with the kitset talked about it being equivalent to a
wire link for use in place of an optional resistor, but didn't
explain why anyone would bother making/using it instead of just
using a handy bit of snipped-off resistor lead (which is what I
would normally use for that sort of thing). Is it just to make
the circuit board look better?
OvEV: the kitset referred to above is an adjustable voltage
regulator that will provide a reference voltage so I can set up
my battery charger properly.
--
Lesley Walker
"Jill of all trades and mistress of none"
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:02 PM 1/21/03 -0800, you wrote:
Part of the problem is that it is difficult to come to a common agreement
on what a "zero emisson source" is.
As I said in the beginning, when we are talking about ICE emissions, we
ONLY include those produced at the tailpipe, not at the refinery,
etc. This is the definition of the term, by commonly accepted usage. So
if we are going to do apples to apples comparisons with EVs, we should not
be including power plant emissions. Power plant and refinery emissions are
separate issues, to be dealt with separately from vehicle emissions.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Low-value resistors like this are used in power supplies, motor
> controls, high power audio amps, etc. so they are available as
> replacement parts. Or, you can order them new from any of the big
> electronics distributors.
Sorry for yet another OT question, but maybe Lee or somebody else
can answer this one:
What is the point of a zero-ohm resistor?
They are a jumper wire that can be installed by automatic equipment
just like a normal resistor.
What gives me a kick are ones that have tolerance ratings.
For example: Look up the P0.0BACT-ND from www.Digikey.com. It is
rated at 5% and 1/4W.
5% of what? And how do you figure power dissipation on 1/4W?
Fortunately they also come in a 1/8W rated part :-)
Of course, somewhere in the spec. it says .5 ohm or 5% whichever is
greater, but it can still be the source of some good geek jokes in
the shop.
Have fun!
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Z2K controller, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will work, these guys do it with their vehicles and attachments.
www.elec-trac.org
30 years old and still running, EV's rule!
Rod
Roy LeMeur wrote:
Steve Clunn wrote:
> But, why not just use one of the commercially available electrics?
My point was not that I wanted to convert my mower to electric but
that I
understood why people Don't convert/buy electric cars even though I have
three EV's and believe in them i do run a gas mower . . Yes I know I
should
do something . I
could at least switch to LP gas for starters . . after 20 years i have
things runing
like a well oiled clock and just don't want any problems(sounds like
joe 6
pack). I am in and out in 20 min . Switching to a small electric
mower that
might take 2 hours to do the same work is not to appealing (I sound just
like "them " now). I did get a smaller fuel eff engine and it uses
1/2
the gas that the old engine did (patting myself on that back for
making a
small small change, just like them) . I'm also hoping to get out of the
lawn bis and into the EV conversion bis any minute now :-) ( more
excuses
just like them) ..
After almost mentioning this quite a few times, Steve's posting here
about hauling around two-stroke weed wackers (and other ICEs) to do
lawncare/landscaping with an EV has motivated me to finally bring up a
long held idea of having an electric lawncare/landscaping business.
Yes... the initial expense and engineering of a workable system would
be substantial, but could certainly be done with a little effort,
especially with a one person/one machine at a time type of operation.
Just think of the marketing hype! --
*Clean and quiet and pollution free machines minimally affect the
customer's environment.
* No smoke, no fumes, no burning of fossil fuels required to cut da
grass!
*I would bet many would be willing to pay extra for this type of service.
You could adapt all the required machines to do this with a little
planning:
Lawn Tractor, blower, string trimmer, hedge cutter, and push mower. (
may have to go with corded AC on some of these to save $)
Have all the battery operated devices run at the same voltage for easy
dump charging from support vehicle pack.
OK... example support vehicle, (one drawback of this system is that
you would probably want to pull it with an ICE powered truck for many
reasons including _foremost_ weight, and the ability to recharge
while driving from job to job, might be doable in flat Florida with EV
tow rig if you can plug into most customers grid power and charge main
pack while working)
Something like this support vehicle to haul, power, and recharge
equipment:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/trailerpage.html
Some more good pics of the same setup with no technical pics:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/mmsolfest.html
(OK... could be smaller)
These are just pictures with no descriptions but a picture is worth a
thousand words. Yes... you could save a bunch of money not having the
PV on the roof, but the marketing possibilities may make this type of
option pay for itself (solar powered! :^D)
Take a look at the large versions of pic 3 and 4 on the first page
showing the battery pack and inverter panel, you could do remote
locations with no grid hookup! (Given that you go in fully charged)
Using a lawn tractor and other battery powered equipment that can be
dump charged from the main pack (24 or 48V, RE standards, w/Trace type
inverters) could shore make for a quick turnaround between jobs :)
I can think of many environmentally aware communities around the
country which could be a good starting place for this. Plugging into
the customer's 20A 120V service should be no problem with a semi-aware
customer. (costs them a few cents while you are there)
You could start small, an electric lawn tractor, corded wacker and
blower could get cha goin'.
If you can make the whole mess including tow vehicle battery electric,
well... that should surely wow the crowd :^D
OK everybody.... tell me why this won't work.
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
John,
The drives I have are too powerful for a Sparrow, but in general
you will benefit from all the AC advantages if the system is sized
properly, as any other vehicle would.
Victor
John Lussmyer wrote:
>
> At 06:01 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
> >Granted, this isn't common situation, but to me at the moment
> >single fact of having regen means keep taking EV to work rather
> >than ICE. BTW, my regen allows *complete* stop and I can even
> >roll back a little. Majority of the days I don't touch brake pedal
> >at all, which is very satisfying.
>
> With my commute in my Sparrow, regen would probably make it MUCH easier on
> my pack. (The 1 mile downhill just before work would help a lot!)
> I've been tempted to figure out just how hard it would be to convert my
> Sparrow to AC....
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor writes:
John,
The drives I have are too powerful for a Sparrow, but in general
you will benefit from all the AC advantages if the system is sized
properly, as any other vehicle would.
Victor, are you sure?
Sparrows are 156V, and I've seen a very fun one that ran at 1200
amps. 300 amps is not unusual.
They are limited in space, and fitting the inverter in may be an
issue, but aside from that I think a AC sparrow would be great.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Z2K controller, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> The drives I have are too powerful for a Sparrow
Try saying that to Madman Rudman! One of your
drives would sure be nice in a Sparrow, of one could be
made to fit. It would solve John's commute problems
with increased efficiency and regen, if the voltage
would be high enough.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Saft recommends replacing all the amp-hours
> consumed at C/5 constant current, then adding another 15% at C/20 constant
> current.
Let us not get the cart before the horse..hi hi
>From the SAFT manual:
"The recommended charging method for SAFT STM batteries is two level
constant current charge.."
"First level: constant current at 0.2 C/5 up to predetermined threshold
voltage"
"Second level: .05 C/5 without voltage limitation."
"The voltage threshold that ends the first level is set at 1.63 V/cell,
i.e. 8.15 V per monoblock. (5 cells per monoblock) The voltage threshold
is calculated from +10C and is adjusted according to the battery
temperature with a negative coefficient..."
I have limited experience with flooded nicads but I have learned that
they respond better with deep discharges and faster charging, just be
careful of temperature. They seem to thrive in conditions that would
kill flooded lead acids. They certainly respond better with faster
charges.
BTW: SAFT calculates the cycle life at 80% discharges.
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan (SAFT NiCd's)
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Comments inserted...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 3:41 PM
Subject: RE: With Friends Like These. . .
> On 21 Jan 2003 at 13:03, Steve wrote:
>
> > Doesn't Idle Capacity just refer to the *capability* of a plant to
generate
> > power during otherwise idle times?
>
> Now, understand I'm not a power engineer ... but this is how I understand
it
> (wish I could remember where I read this).
>
I guess I should jump in here since I am with PacifiCorp (Pacific Power &
Light.
> Because overnight loads are very low, power plants loaf along at reduced
> efficiency. This seems to have something to do with trading off
efficiency
> against the amount of fuel required to shut down and bring up a generator
(I
> told you I'm not an engineer!). The upshot is that anything that consumes
> power at night ONLY is improving the plant's efficiency. (And anything
that
> adds power to the grid during the day, such as intertied PVs, also
improves
> it.)
Non polluting power plants, like hydro and wind, can shut down and start
back up in a matter of minutes and in some cases seconds.
Unfortunately, the polluting power plants, the ones that burn coal / gas /
whatever, can't. Most of these plants operate by firing a very large boiler
that makes steam and the steam turns the turbine. It takes a very long time
to bring the boiler temperature up to the operating range from cold. This is
usually at least 24 hours. This is partly because of the time it takes to
heat the water and partly the need to not have rapid thermal expansion in
the pipes, etc. or things would rupture. Because of all this they don't shut
down at night. When they want to stop making power they just bring the
temperature down enough to not be making steam, but they are still burning a
LOT of fuel (with NO output). These plants are also most efficient at full
production (pollution % to power output is best).
So when we use power by charging at night we are causing a little more
pollution but we are actually reducing the overall % of pollution compared
to the energy obtained.
>
> The further contention is that a limited number of EVs (I don't know what
> that number is) charged overnight would have a negligible effect on the
> actual amount of fuel used and emissions released.
>
> I apologize: my memory's vague, and I can't find a reference. Anybody
here
> know more about this? Can anyone support or refute it with authority?
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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John,
Talk to Corbin about AC. They might be able to supply you with the system
they are putting in the new Sparrows.
http://www.corbinmotors.com/dailynews/2003/dailynews.html
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
> At 06:01 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
> >Granted, this isn't common situation, but to me at the moment
> >single fact of having regen means keep taking EV to work rather
> >than ICE. BTW, my regen allows *complete* stop and I can even
> >roll back a little. Majority of the days I don't touch brake pedal
> >at all, which is very satisfying.
>
> With my commute in my Sparrow, regen would probably make it MUCH easier
on
> my pack. (The 1 mile downhill just before work would help a lot!)
> I've been tempted to figure out just how hard it would be to convert my
> Sparrow to AC....
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
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The Northrop-Grumman AC systems in my Rangers are 75HP and 100kw max.
Northrop-Grumman has used this same system in full size BlueBird buses, they
just use two of them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Truck (im)possibility
> At 05:09 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Paul G stated:
> >Buying a used electric Bus might be a way to get a deal on high power
> >drivetrain (either AC or DC).
>
> One question on that, aren't the motors in Electric Busses kinda HUGE and
> HEAVY?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> They are a jumper wire that can be installed by automatic equipment
> just like a normal resistor.
Oh, of course. <kicks self> Thanks, I can sleep now. :-)
Damned if I know why anyone would put them in a kitset for manual
assembly though. (Rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer)
> What gives me a kick are ones that have tolerance ratings.
> For example: Look up the P0.0BACT-ND from www.Digikey.com. It is
> rated at 5% and 1/4W.
> 5% of what? And how do you figure power dissipation on 1/4W?
> Fortunately they also come in a 1/8W rated part :-)
I see they're made of carbon film, too.
> Of course, somewhere in the spec. it says .5 ohm or 5% whichever is
> greater, but it can still be the source of some good geek jokes in
> the shop.
Hmmm. High-tech equivalent of sending the apprentice for a "long
weight" or a left-handed screwdriver. I like it.
--
Lesley Walker
Geekwoman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
> It's my understanding that there is indeed enough unused capacity
> during the evenings to charge a great many EVs without requiring
> upgrades to the infrastructure. However, as far as emissions go,
> won't charging EVs, even in the evening, still require the
> utilities to produce the additional emissions that come from
> generating the power the EVs require to charge?
It's complicated. Power is being generated by many different kinds of
plants; coal, hydro, nuclear, etc. Each kind of plant has a different
cost per KWH, and can be throttled up/down at a different rate.
Let's make it simple. Suppose you have a coal plant and a nuclear plant.
The coal plant is dirty and expensive to run, but you can raise and
lower its power output faster (full power by day, low power by night).
The nuclear plant is cleaner and cheaper to run, but you have to run it
at a constant load (takes days to throttle it up or down).
Suppose your load is 2000 MW peak (day), and 1000 MW off-peak (at
night). Then you have to run the clean plant at 1000 MW continuously,
and supply the other 1000 MW peak load with the dirty plant. Half your
daytime power comes from the dirty plant.
But suppose you can get people to shift more of the load to night so
it's 1750 MW by day, and 1250 MW at night. Now you can run the clean
plant at 1250 MW continuously, and the dirty one only supplies 500 MW
peak. You're generating the same total amount of power, but cut your
pollution in half.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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The bigger and heavier they are, the slower the thermal time constant and
the larger the heat dissipation. Remember big amps make big heat squared.
Any time you run big power numbers, the waste heat has to be passed to the
atmosphere and out into space. Moving liquid carries the heat to a radiator
in a liquid cooled system. An air cooled system, heats the air directly
without the weight and complexity of a liquid pump. A properly designed
liquid cooling system keeps the temperature much more stable and prolongs
service life.
A large thermal mass allows high crest factors in thermal loading without
the temperature getting dangerous. A large surface area will dissipate (&
radiate) heat better than a small object.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Truck (im)possibility
> At 05:09 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Paul G stated:
> >Buying a used electric Bus might be a way to get a deal on high power
> >drivetrain (either AC or DC).
>
> One question on that, aren't the motors in Electric Busses kinda HUGE and
> HEAVY?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Here in Texas we have a choice as to who provides our electrical power. So
I choose Green Mountain Energy. They have Wind Farms and a small number of
PV Farms. But in SF, you also have Geothermal energy sources. Calpine
(www.calpine.com) has a dozen to the North of SF. You might want to see if
you have a choice in California also. I should know, as I work for
Calpine, but I never had a reason to look into it. There are also other
Wind Farms and such available for energy sources, even if you aren't the
one owning them your support and patronage does make a difference.
At 03:25 PM 1/21/2003, you wrote:
I have to ask this question since I am going no where
in my search. How do I switch my electricity from
PG&E to some renewable sources? I am in SF Bay Area.
I don't have the budget to put a PV system.
Thanks.
Ed Ang
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Here in San Diego we had a great many new choices about two or three
years ago. I chose utility.com. They advertised good rates, but I
didn't give a darn. I wanted them for their renewable aspect and
their savy online approach.
Then, as deregulation became a disaster, my renewable place sent me
notice that they were turning me back over to my original utility, who
had ZERO program for allowing me to choose renewable energy.
While theoretically deregulation was not the same thing as increased
choice in how the electricity was derived, the fortunes of both
concepts seemed to coincide.
In fact, I once read an article describing how the very small nascient
in-state renewable efforts were suffering under some refusals to pay
them properly for their energy, the refusals either coming from the
government or industry, I'm not sure how that worked.
Anyway, maybe now that the dust has settled there are some
Californians, somewhere, with some access to choosing renewables.
It's been awhile since I checked it out.
jl
On Tue, 21 Jan 2003 23:09:21 -0600, you wrote:
>Here in Texas we have a choice as to who provides our electrical power. So
>I choose Green Mountain Energy. They have Wind Farms and a small number of
>PV Farms. But in SF, you also have Geothermal energy sources. Calpine
>(www.calpine.com) has a dozen to the North of SF. You might want to see if
>you have a choice in California also. I should know, as I work for
>Calpine, but I never had a reason to look into it. There are also other
>Wind Farms and such available for energy sources, even if you aren't the
>one owning them your support and patronage does make a difference.
>
>At 03:25 PM 1/21/2003, you wrote:
>>I have to ask this question since I am going no where
>>in my search. How do I switch my electricity from
>>PG&E to some renewable sources? I am in SF Bay Area.
>>
>>I don't have the budget to put a PV system.
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Ed Ang
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>>http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>> So you aren't experiencing memory effect, just
>> reduced capacity.
Edward Ang wrote:
> I think this is generally known as the "memory
> effect", isn't it?
Colloquially, people call *anything* that reduces capacity "memory
effect", no matter what the conditions or even what type of battery they
are talking about.
But, the true nicad "memory effect" is a very specific condition. It
means the cell has normal amphour capacity, but its voltage falls
partway through the discharge, at the point of the previous deepest
discharge. Like this (view with fixed width font):
voltage
|
1.5 +\_________________good cell
| \ \
1.0 + \_________\
| cell with \
0.5 + memory effect \
| \
0 +-----------------------------time
The good cell holds its voltage almost constant until it is almost dead.
The cell with memory effect has a sudden drop in voltage when it hits
the amphour point it is used to being discharged to, and then holds
constant at this new plateau until it has delivered its normal amphour
capacity (and then falls to zero).
If the thing the cell is powering is sensitive to voltage, or has a
low-voltage cutout, the user thinks the battery is "dead", when it is
really just at an abnormally low voltage.
True memory effect was eliminated by changes in the way nicads are
manufactured. In old batteries that do exhibit it, it can be "cured" by
simply discharging the battery more deeply, and then recharging it
normally. Thereafter, just avoid discharging it to the same depth of
discharge each time.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
