EV Digest 2558
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Maserati EV conversion considering
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Vent plugs for batteries
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Internet Virus affecting traffic on Saturday
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Maserati EV conversion considering
by "steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Vent plugs for batteries
by "Johanna and Stan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: E-teks for Sparrows
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Vent plugs for batteries
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Battery condition indicator
by Roger Daisley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Maserati EV conversion considering
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Sparrow motor available
by Roger Daisley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV Fillling Stations (was: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Vent plugs for batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Electric Renault Express Vans
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric Renault Express Vans
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EVLN(Industry funds EPRI study: have feds OK dirty power)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know much about these cars.
But there is an EV Maserati the was converted 10 years ago and is in
immaculate condition.
Told goes fast but have no range details.
I suspect lead acid & DC motor/controller.
For about 10 grand.
Can any Maserati be capable of a 4o mile range with lead acid ?
I can not imagine these cars being good EV candidates unless they are
strong and light.
Any opinions appreciated.
Thanks,
Danny...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2003 at 11:31, Johanna and Stan wrote:
>
> > We heard that vent plugs cut down on the need for adding
water to batteries -
> > has anyone had experience with these and do they work?
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Are you talking
about literally
> plugging up the vent holes in the cell caps? That would be
dangerous.
> During the last 20% of charge, batteries produce hydrogen and
oxygen gas.
> If the vents are plugged, the gases can't escape. The pressure
will build
> up and try to vent wherever it can. If the seal is good
enough, the battery
> could rupture from the pressure.
>
> VRR ("sealed") batteries use a catalyst to help recombine H2
and O2 into
> water. They also have pressure valves to release the gases in
case the
> battery produces them faster than the recombination reaction
can handle
> them.
>
> Are you maybe thinking of Hydrocaps? These are gadgets which
contain a
> similar catalyst. They're sometimes used in home alternative
energy
> systems, and I understand they're successful (to some degree)
in reducing
> water usage. But they add quite a bit of height to the
battery, something
> like 2" or more, and this might pose a problem for the tight
quarters that
> are typical in EVs. I don't think they're anyting like $5 each,
either,
> though I suppose there might be some shoddy far-east sweatshop
imitations
> out there selling for less.
And the Hydrocaps can also get quite hot if the battery is
gassing good due to the catalytic reaction of turning the H2 and
O2 back into water. That would also make me think that the
recombinant batteries must produce a fair amount of heat (from
their catalyst) if they're getting pushed.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's because this virus goes after servers running Microsoft SQL2000 -
only on NT and Windows 2000.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Internet Virus affecting traffic on Saturday
> Hmm, I've been seeing those hits on my firewall for weeks now. Odd
> thing is I've only seen three of them in the last three days, all of
> them yesterday.
>
> On Sat, 2003-01-25 at 07:24, Eric Penne wrote:
> > >From Slashdot.org:
> >
> >
> > defile writes "Since about midnight EST almost every host on the
> > internet has been receiving a 376 byte UDP payload on port ms-sql-m
> > (1434) from a random infected server. Reports of some hosts receiving
> > 10 per minute or more. internetpulse.net is reporting UUNet and
> > Internap are being hit very hard. This is the cause of major
> > connectivity problems being experienced worldwide. It is believed this
> > worm leverages a vulnerability published in June 2002. Several core
> > routers have taken to blocking port 1434 outright. If you run Microsoft
> > SQL Server, make sure the public internet can't access it. If you
> > manage a gateway, consider dropping UDP packets sent to port 1434."
> > bani adds "This has effectively disabled 5 of the 13 root nameservers."
> >
> >
> >
> > Eric
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > There appears to be a worm or virus affecting internet traffic today.
> > > It
> > > must be bogging down the routers.
> > >
> > > I was attempting to update the EVA/DC website but cannot access the
> > > site or
> > > any of my other sites for that matter. Hopefully things will clear
> > > up later
> > > today as hosting providers respond to the situation.
> > >
> > > Chip Gribben
> > > Webmaster
> > > Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
> > > http://www.evadc.org/
> > > Power of DC
> > > http://www.powerofdc.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know the exact details, but I've seen people at Reva work on a similar concept
- 15min to 80% charge. I know
they blew some very costly apparatus....
Prasad
http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
_____________________________________________________________________
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
I guess a thing to do is keep it small and use a PFC. Under an hour on
something like a 72v pack. Guess the next project will be very small.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 22:13, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > > This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it?
> Lawrence Rhodes....
> > >
> http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news-fordevfastchr
> g.html
> >
> > the major problem is simply getting the power to the charger.
> Assuming
> > the batteries and charger total 80% efficient that means you
> have to put
> > over 56kw into the pack for 20 minutes.
> > that's 255 amps at 220V.
> >
> > That's more than twice what the average household power panel
> is rated
> > for.
>
> Seems like high-power Level III(+) charging would be in the
> domain of fast-fill service stations with industrial-level power
> feeds. I would think that the charger equipment (AC -> DC -
> maybe Rich could supply this equipment) would be in a stand, much
> like the inductive Magnacharger box. (The vehicle's on-board
> charging equipment for Level II and below would be switched out
> of the circuit.) Have a wide-open DC connection and pour the
> juice in. (Can Avcon do DC? - I know it has a couple of extra
> connections for high power, but those are probably AC.)
> Communications between the vehicle and the charging stand control
> the charging rate. One or two of these fast-fill stations in
> some gas stations scattered around the area would certainly do
> wonders for "charging infrastructure". That way if one service
> station's charging "pumps" were broken, you could go down the
> road a mile or two and try another station with minimal
> inconvenience, just like with gas cars. But this was discussed
> years ago, and we don't seem to be any closer to it now...
>
> Hey, does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going to happen
> with the current charging infrastructure now that all the
> production vehicles are gone. I don't like where I end up with
> that; maybe somebody can inject some cheering thoughts on this
> into my soul...
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> As a rule of thumb, if you force a flooded battery to its gassing
> voltage (about 2.37v/cell, or 14.2v on a 12v battery), the charging
> current will be approximately equal to the number of amphours needed to
> reach full charge.
I have noticed this also also on the balk charge . When the amps going in,
say 25amps = the neg ah on the e-meter (25) then the voltage is usually
around 13.8 v (on golf cart bats) . I've also noticed that It doesn't take
much more amps than ah to push the voltage right on up there.
> For example, suppose you have a 12 volt, 60 amphour flooded lead-acid
> battery. It is at 50% SOC, which means it needs 30 amphours to recharge
> it. If you connect it to a high-current 14.2v supply, it will initially
> draw a huge surge, then settle down to about 30 amps. This 30 amps will
> gradually taper down to 20a when there's 20ah to go, 10a when there's
> 10ah to go, etc. until it is almost zero amps when fully charged.
I have though a lot about this since I first noticed it . these are just
thoughts
1 pushing in more amps that what the neg ah is, is just wasting the above
amps . exp charging 35 amps when 25 ah are needed to fill the bat would
still take the same time to charge as if you were putting in 25
2 when you look at it from a mythical point fo view you can never get to 0ah
as the numbers keep getting smaller but never go a way so because they never
get fully charged they lose ah each charge. of course this is very small in
the end but it would seem like you can never get a batteries fully charged
even when over charging it .
> A sealed AGM has a lower internal resistance; they will draw 2 or 3
> times this current.
>
> > Using the motor as an inductor for the PWM - is that to smooth the
> > square wave to an average V?
>
> A PWM controller is a "buck converter", which is one of the fundamental
> DC/DC converter circuits. It consists of 4 basic components; a
> capacitor, an inductor, a transistor, and a diode.
>
> But a typical PWM motor controller only has the transistor and diode;
> the batteries serve as the capacitor (plus a small bank in the
> controller), and the motor's field serves as the inductor.
>
> If you use a PWM controller to drive something other than an inductive
> load (for example, as a battery charger), then you need to add a
> physical inductor. The purpose of this inductor is to act as a flywheel;
> it stores energy during the transistor's "on" time, and gives it up
> during the "off" time. Thus, the output current is relatively smooth.
>
> Without the inductor, the current would be extremely large during the
> "on" time, and zero during the "off" time. Worse, the controller's
> current limit circuit wouldn't work; the transistor would be likely to
> be destroyed.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Prasad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 10:32 AM
Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
> I don't know the exact details, but I've seen people at Reva work on a
similar concept - 15min to 80% charge. I know
> they blew some very costly apparatus....
>
> Prasad
>
> http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
> _
Hi Prasad:
Hey! These things happen! When you are working with Railway amps! To get
that kind of power stuffed into a battery, in that amount of time. Probably
found ANY poor or weak connection on the car, it arced over and probably
blew up a battery cell or so. You would need a commercial electric power
supply, as I'm sure homes in India aren't wired for that kind of amp, as
ther aren't here in the USA.
Thanks for sharing your website with us on the List. People, cars an'
stuff in your part of the world_Do keep us posted with EVents in India. Fast
charging capability for the Reva will make it very useful as a daily driver
vehicle. I have always said that a EV is only as good as it's charger. I
have run over 100 miles in a day, multiple trips, with charging inbetween @
70 amps. Sure couldn't do it from a 15 amp wall outlet! If there were a lot
of Rivas in ,say, a city, they could have EV "Gas" stations with REALLY big
batteries, for dump charging, maybe use surplus submarine boat batteries?Or
at least locomotive starting batteries?
My two Amps worth
Seeya
Bob__________________________________________________________________
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:42 AM
> Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
>
>
> I guess a thing to do is keep it small and use a PFC. Under an hour on
> something like a 72v pack. Guess the next project will be very small.
> Lawrence Rhodes......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:45 PM
> Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
>
>
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 22:13, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > > > This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it?
> > Lawrence Rhodes....
> > > >
> > http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news-fordevfastchr
> > g.html
> > >
> > > the major problem is simply getting the power to the charger.
> > Assuming
> > > the batteries and charger total 80% efficient that means you
> > have to put
> > > over 56kw into the pack for 20 minutes.
> > > that's 255 amps at 220V.
> > >
> > > That's more than twice what the average household power panel
> > is rated
> > > for.
> >
> > Seems like high-power Level III(+) charging would be in the
> > domain of fast-fill service stations with industrial-level power
> > feeds. I would think that the charger equipment (AC -> DC -
> > maybe Rich could supply this equipment) would be in a stand, much
> > like the inductive Magnacharger box. (The vehicle's on-board
> > charging equipment for Level II and below would be switched out
> > of the circuit.) Have a wide-open DC connection and pour the
> > juice in. (Can Avcon do DC? - I know it has a couple of extra
> > connections for high power, but those are probably AC.)
> > Communications between the vehicle and the charging stand control
> > the charging rate. One or two of these fast-fill stations in
> > some gas stations scattered around the area would certainly do
> > wonders for "charging infrastructure". That way if one service
> > station's charging "pumps" were broken, you could go down the
> > road a mile or two and try another station with minimal
> > inconvenience, just like with gas cars. But this was discussed
> > years ago, and we don't seem to be any closer to it now...
> >
> > Hey, does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going to happen
> > with the current charging infrastructure now that all the
> > production vehicles are gone. I don't like where I end up with
> > that; maybe somebody can inject some cheering thoughts on this
> > into my soul...
> >
> > Chuck Hursch
> > Larkspur, CA
> > NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> > www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Strong VW kits but w/Batteries and an electric motor? Fiberglass kit-car
turnkey maseratis, ferraris, lamborghinis, etc, are about $10-20K.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV SEND MSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 2:44 AM
Subject: Maserati EV conversion considering
> I don't know much about these cars.
> But there is an EV Maserati the was converted 10 years ago and is in
> immaculate condition.
> Told goes fast but have no range details.
> I suspect lead acid & DC motor/controller.
> For about 10 grand.
> Can any Maserati be capable of a 4o mile range with lead acid ?
> I can not imagine these cars being good EV candidates unless they are
> strong and light.
> Any opinions appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Danny...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All:
Perhaps the question was not clear: We have been looking at Cerafil
Vent Plugs. They seem adequate. Anybody ever use them or equivalent?
They may be seen at:
http://www.cerafil-ventplug.com/Product/Product.html
Thanks,
Stan and Jo Soliday
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Vent plugs for batteries
> On 25 Jan 2003 at 11:31, Johanna and Stan wrote:
>
> > We heard that vent plugs cut down on the need for adding water to
batteries -
> > has anyone had experience with these and do they work?
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Are you talking about
literally
> plugging up the vent holes in the cell caps? That would be dangerous.
> During the last 20% of charge, batteries produce hydrogen and oxygen gas.
> If the vents are plugged, the gases can't escape. The pressure will build
> up and try to vent wherever it can. If the seal is good enough, the
battery
> could rupture from the pressure.
>
> VRR ("sealed") batteries use a catalyst to help recombine H2 and O2 into
> water. They also have pressure valves to release the gases in case the
> battery produces them faster than the recombination reaction can handle
> them.
>
> Are you maybe thinking of Hydrocaps? These are gadgets which contain a
> similar catalyst. They're sometimes used in home alternative energy
> systems, and I understand they're successful (to some degree) in reducing
> water usage. But they add quite a bit of height to the battery, something
> like 2" or more, and this might pose a problem for the tight quarters that
> are typical in EVs. I don't think they're anyting like $5 each, either,
> though I suppose there might be some shoddy far-east sweatshop imitations
> out there selling for less.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> I have noticed this also on the bulk charge. When the amps going
> in (say 25amps) equals the neg ah on the E-meter (-25ah), then the
> voltage is usually around 13.8 v (on golf cart bats). I've also
> noticed that it doesn't take much more amps than ah to push the
> voltage right on up there.
Exactly. This is about the maximum rate that the battery can accept
current at its present state of charge.
Since your golf cart battery was only at 13.8v, you could raise the
current a little more; to maybe 30 amps before the voltage hit 14.2v at
-25ah on the E-meter. AGMs would be higher yet, and 12v floodeds with a
higher Peukert exponent would be lower.
> 1. Pushing in more amps than the neg ah is just wasting the extra
> amps. For example, charging 35 amps when 25ah are needed to fill
> the bat would still take the same time to charge as if you were
> putting in 25a.
Basically correct. Once you go above the gassing voltge, more current
won't charge faster; it just pushes the voltage up and causes more
gassing and heating.
However, you still need to go above the gassing point at the end of a
charge to equalize, stir the electrolyte, etc.
> 2. When you look at it from a [theoretical] point of view, you can
> never get to 0ah as the numbers keep getting smaller but never
> go all way.
Yes. This is basically what happens with a constant-voltage float
charger. At 13.8v max it takes more than a day to reach full charge.
13.5v takes a week or more. 13.2v takes a month, and below that it never
gets there.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From : "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To :
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject : RE: E-teks for Sparrows Date : Fri,
24 Jan 2003 19:16:02 -0500
I suppose I could be called biased, but I think the best idea yet is one of
Victor's drives. Between the regen and the efficiency tweak, you'll have a
somewhat better chance of making your commute goal. And while I know some
here disagree, I just think that AC induction drives nicer than series DC.
(Sepex DC would probably be comparable.)
I can think of a couple of advantages. The higher RPM limit means you can
gear the Sparrow down for better acceleration (or equivalent acceleration if
you use the small Siemens drive.) With the DC/DC and contactors integrated,
you might even be able to make enough room for an extra battery elsewhere
(haven't seen a Sparrow up close myself.)
Most importantly, you can cram as many of almost any size of battery as you
can, and still know it will run. Your PFC, inverter and DC/DC would have a
wide range of compatible input voltages, so you can go with Evercells,
Hawkers, NiCads or whatever will get you the most range, and not worry about
smaller batteries possibly making the voltage too high.
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These vent plugs are designed to prevent water loss due to evaporation.
For EV's water loss due to evaporation is only a tiny portion of the
water lost. Most is lost due to electrolysis during the last portion of
the charge. This site states specifically that these caps allow gasses
to flow out which means they will do nothing to prevent the hydrogen and
oxygen from escaping.
In other words these won't help much in your watering schedule and will
mostly be a waste of money.
On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 10:47, Johanna and Stan wrote:
> All:
>
> Perhaps the question was not clear: We have been looking at Cerafil
> Vent Plugs. They seem adequate. Anybody ever use them or equivalent?
>
>
> They may be seen at:
> http://www.cerafil-ventplug.com/Product/Product.html
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Stan and Jo Soliday
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 1:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Vent plugs for batteries
>
>
> > On 25 Jan 2003 at 11:31, Johanna and Stan wrote:
> >
> > > We heard that vent plugs cut down on the need for adding water to
> batteries -
> > > has anyone had experience with these and do they work?
> >
> > Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Are you talking about
> literally
> > plugging up the vent holes in the cell caps? That would be dangerous.
> > During the last 20% of charge, batteries produce hydrogen and oxygen gas.
> > If the vents are plugged, the gases can't escape. The pressure will build
> > up and try to vent wherever it can. If the seal is good enough, the
> battery
> > could rupture from the pressure.
> >
> > VRR ("sealed") batteries use a catalyst to help recombine H2 and O2 into
> > water. They also have pressure valves to release the gases in case the
> > battery produces them faster than the recombination reaction can handle
> > them.
> >
> > Are you maybe thinking of Hydrocaps? These are gadgets which contain a
> > similar catalyst. They're sometimes used in home alternative energy
> > systems, and I understand they're successful (to some degree) in reducing
> > water usage. But they add quite a bit of height to the battery, something
> > like 2" or more, and this might pose a problem for the tight quarters that
> > are typical in EVs. I don't think they're anyting like $5 each, either,
> > though I suppose there might be some shoddy far-east sweatshop imitations
> > out there selling for less.
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
>
--
EVDL
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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The owner died a year or two ago and its been sitting.
The widow wants to sell.
Waiting to get a look at it.
No idea if kit car or conversion.
Voltage, number of batts etc.
If fiber glass body then its obvious, which is good because of the less
weight.
But only a complete examination will tell.
Danny...
steve wrote:
>
> Strong VW kits but w/Batteries and an electric motor? Fiberglass kit-car
> turnkey maseratis, ferraris, lamborghinis, etc, are about $10-20K.
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV SEND MSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 2:44 AM
> Subject: Maserati EV conversion considering
>
> > I don't know much about these cars.
> > But there is an EV Maserati the was converted 10 years ago and is in
> > immaculate condition.
> > Told goes fast but have no range details.
> > I suspect lead acid & DC motor/controller.
> > For about 10 grand.
> > Can any Maserati be capable of a 4o mile range with lead acid ?
> > I can not imagine these cars being good EV candidates unless they are
> > strong and light.
> > Any opinions appreciated.
> > Thanks,
> > Danny...
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Motor from a new Sparrow available on eBay.
See:
ADVANCED DC SERIES ELECTRIC MOTOR - Like New
Item # 2401225344
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:08 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute
> charge to 80%)
>
>
> There are a few holes in the logic...
>
> 1. If a pack is too small to run the car, then it holds too
> few kilowatt hours to move the car a reasonable distance. If
> you use this battery pack to store the charge, then the
> energy it holds it will only move the car 80% of the distance
> the pack would move it.
>
> For instance, if the dump pack only holds 5 kilowatt hours,
> then it can only dump 4 kilowatt hours into the car if the
> dump charger is 80% efficient.
>
> 2. The voltage sag of the donor pack during a dump charge
> will probably come down to about 10 volts per 12 volt block
> and the pack being charged would come up to nearly 15 volts
> per 12 volt block.
>
> For example, a 120 volt pack will need to come up to 150
> volts during charge. You will need at least 160 volts into
> the controller to get this output if you budget for voltage
> drops in the current loop. Therefore you need 16 (12 volt)
> batteries to produce a good dump current. The pack should be
> 192 volts to operate properly.
>
> 3. The higher voltage dump pack needs to have an ampere hour
> capacity AT THE DUMP CHARGE CURRENT as the battery being
> charged needs to absorb. This means the Peukert effect will
> take a big chunk out of the dump pack capacity.
>
> For example, a Trojan T105
> (http://www.altenergystore.com/cart/379.html) is rated at 225
> AHr at the 20 hour rate but only 143 at 75 amps. This battery
> has only 63% of its full capacity when operated at 75 amps
> instead of 10 amps.
>
> Summary:
>
> -The dump charge pack needs to be more than 50% higher in
> voltage than the pack being charged if you are using the
> common buck converter for a controller. -The dump pack ampere
> hour capacity needs to be larger than the pack being charged
> AT THE DUMP CHARGE CURRENT.
To go from 20% to 80% SOC is "only" 60% capacity though. The dumper I'm
contemplating can't be a substitute for a "real" charger, with the
necessary control to do the last 20%. My original intent or expectation
was to be able to stop home (at as low as 20% SOC) for >1/2 hour and
regain at least 1/2 the nominal range of the car, in my case, 16 Optimas
@192V. An on-board charger would be available for most of the charging
duties.
OK, so the dump source pack needs much higher V than the traction pack,
more so as current and traction pack SOC increases.
Which brings up another hopefully minor issue that can probably only be
evaluated by testing; the higher charging currents would tend to amplify
battery inequalities... making more work for the equalizers the next
time the pack was fully charged. They might be pushed harder thermally.
The question of what is the inrush current remains unknown, along with
the fuses' ability to handle it.
The thought of using a motor controller instead of a charger was 1) amp
capacity, and 2) cost per amp is lower, provided you can find one with
high enough voltage rating. A contactor-based system would be great
(read, much cheaper) if inrush can be limited to a safe level. Even if a
junk motor had to be bought for an inductor.
>
> Another option:
>
> The PFC-50 architecture can be used as a dump charger. The
> present design works if the input circuit breaker is changed
> to a DC rated device. The present configuration is set up for
> as much as 400 volts peak input and output. If the voltage
> limits were reduced, the current limits can be increased. As
> it sits, it is capable of running off as little as 120 VDC to
> as much as 380 VDC. If the voltage limits (both input and
> output) were reduced to less than 200 volts peak, then the
> existing design should be capable of over 150 amps as a dump
> charger. The safety circuits and control issues have already
> been worked out.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If the PFC-50 could be modified to handle DC input (CB) and optimized
for the needed voltage levels of a particular pack, and thereby yield
100+ amps initial output... This might satisfy my original intent, while
not blowing fuses and melting insulation... And left to it's own devices
would continue to charge past 80% if time permitted. It also solves the
voltage rating problem. Would it be simply a matter of turning the Amps
knob up and down to move from AC Normal mode to DC Dump mode?
This would be a future project for me, however the design concept could
effect my on-board charger decision. Hopefully there are others on the
list with dump ambitions who are ready to start trying things now.
- GT
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--- Begin Message ---
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Rice
SNIP
>I have always said that a EV is only as good as it's charger. I
>have run over 100 miles in a day, multiple trips, with charging
>inbetween @
>70 amps. Sure couldn't do it from a 15 amp wall outlet! If there were a
>lot
>of Rivas in ,say, a city, they could have EV "Gas" stations with REALLY
>big
>batteries, for dump charging, maybe use surplus submarine boat
>batteries?Or
>at least locomotive starting batteries?
More SNIP
Would this be a good application for a huge Flywheel? How efficient are
they? I imagine with enough rotational mass you could get some serious amps.
Stay Charged!
Hump
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Johanna and Stan wrote:
> We have been looking at Cerafil Vent Plugs. They seem adequate.
> Anybody ever use them or equivalent? They may be seen at:
> http://www.cerafil-ventplug.com/Product/Product.html
The english on their description is rather lumpy and perhaps erroneously
translated. If all they do is prevent water vapor from escaping, they
would be useless. As others have said, water loss through evaporation is
negligible.
But, they might have meant that the caps prevent loss of water through
electrolysis. If this is the case, then they would have to contain some
kind of catalyst (like platinum) which can recombine the H2 and O2
produced back into water. This would account for the larger size of the
caps, since a large surface area is needed for the catalyst to be
effective. Catalyst-type vent caps do reduce water usage.
A related problem is whether these caps cause or allow a pressure
difference between inside and outside of the cell. If they do, you may
have problems with breaking the battery case from too large a pressure
differential. Industrial batteries are usually in very strong steel
cases, and could withstand a lot more internal pressure than the typical
plastic-cased batteries used in EVs.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Anyone know about the Electric Renault Express Vans?
Seen at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/331.html
Some are for sale over in France (see the Tradin' Post) - complete &
running for a little less than just the NiCad batteries would cost.
Tempting in a way to get a couple of the packs for re-use (if can make a
long string), but they are just too cute to scrap for parts. By American
standards they are a bit lethargic (0-30 in under 10 seconds and top
speed 55 mph), but for the intended use as an urban delivery van not
bad. I don't exactly why the pilot program they were built for ended.
Would the US allow such to be imported and put on the road?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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Except that I believe the NiCads are leased. Purchasing the car just
gets you the option to continue leasing the batteries.
On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 20:27, Jim Coate wrote:
> Anyone know about the Electric Renault Express Vans?
> Seen at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/331.html
>
> Some are for sale over in France (see the Tradin' Post) - complete &
> running for a little less than just the NiCad batteries would cost.
> Tempting in a way to get a couple of the packs for re-use (if can make a
> long string), but they are just too cute to scrap for parts. By American
> standards they are a bit lethargic (0-30 in under 10 seconds and top
> speed 55 mph), but for the intended use as an urban delivery van not
> bad. I don't exactly why the pilot program they were built for ended.
>
> Would the US allow such to be imported and put on the road?
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To get over 100 amps out of a PFC-50 would require derating the peak voltage
from 400 down to 200 volts. This means that it will no longer operate from a
208, 220 or 240 volt source. This would seriously limit the options for AC
operation.
200 volts output is too low for your 192 volt pack since it would need to go
to as much as 240 volts during equalization. We might be able to do 250 or
300 volt peak if we can find some good 300 or 400 volt modules. When we test
them, we can determine how much overhead is needed.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:20 PM
Subject: RE: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
> If the PFC-50 could be modified to handle DC input (CB) and optimized
> for the needed voltage levels of a particular pack, and thereby yield
> 100+ amps initial output... This might satisfy my original intent, while
> not blowing fuses and melting insulation... And left to it's own devices
> would continue to charge past 80% if time permitted. It also solves the
> voltage rating problem. Would it be simply a matter of turning the Amps
> knob up and down to move from AC Normal mode to DC Dump mode?
>
> This would be a future project for me, however the design concept could
> effect my on-board charger decision. Hopefully there are others on the
> list with dump ambitions who are ready to start trying things now.
>
> - GT
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Besides which you don't need a PFC charger when going from DC to DC, do
you?
On Sun, 2003-01-26 at 21:38, Joe Smalley wrote:
> To get over 100 amps out of a PFC-50 would require derating the peak voltage
> from 400 down to 200 volts. This means that it will no longer operate from a
> 208, 220 or 240 volt source. This would seriously limit the options for AC
> operation.
>
> 200 volts output is too low for your 192 volt pack since it would need to go
> to as much as 240 volts during equalization. We might be able to do 250 or
> 300 volt peak if we can find some good 300 or 400 volt modules. When we test
> them, we can determine how much overhead is needed.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 1:20 PM
> Subject: RE: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
>
> > If the PFC-50 could be modified to handle DC input (CB) and optimized
> > for the needed voltage levels of a particular pack, and thereby yield
> > 100+ amps initial output... This might satisfy my original intent, while
> > not blowing fuses and melting insulation... And left to it's own devices
> > would continue to charge past 80% if time permitted. It also solves the
> > voltage rating problem. Would it be simply a matter of turning the Amps
> > knob up and down to move from AC Normal mode to DC Dump mode?
> >
> > This would be a future project for me, however the design concept could
> > effect my on-board charger decision. Hopefully there are others on the
> > list with dump ambitions who are ready to start trying things now.
> >
> > - GT
> >
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Industry funds EPRI study: have feds OK dirty power)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
Top Stories - USA TODAY
Sick of pollution? Don't blame us, power plants say
Thu Jan 23,10:57 AM ET
Traci Watson USA TODAY
The electric power industry has developed a new message at a
key time: Emissions from power plants don't make people
sick.
The industry's contentions could have implications for air
quality across the USA. Federal officials are deciding
whether to loosen rules that require plants to install
better pollution filters. During the next few years,
officials may also decide whether power plants will have to
slash the amounts of pollution they emit.
The industry's argument focuses on the health effects of
''fine particles,'' microscopic specks of acid, soot and
other pollutants. A major component of fine particles is a
chemical called sulfate; it comes primarily from power
plants.
Studies have linked fine particles in general to heart and
lung disease. But power companies say the sulfate and other
fine particles that their plants emit are neither dangerous
nor dominant pollutants.
''The best new studies indicate so far that sulfates are not
causing health problems, though we continue to research the
possible relationship,'' says John Kinsman of the Edison
Electric Institute, a utility lobbying group.
''Most (particulate) exposure is not attributable to power
plant emissions,'' says a briefing paper another industry
group released in November. ''The worst sources of outdoor
(particulate) are automobiles and trucks.'' The paper was
distributed by the Electric Reliability Coordinating
Council, a coalition of power companies.
Many scientists say the industry's arguments on fine
particles are premature at best and misleading at worst.
Research ''certainly does not give us the impression that
sulfate particles aren't damaging,'' says Arden Pope of
Brigham Young University, one of the first scientists to
establish that low levels of fine particles are
life-threatening. ''Sulfates are implicated just as much as
about anything we have.''
Pointing to ARIES
Power companies used to argue that the level of fine
particles in the nation's air was too low to harm health.
But the Environmental Protection Agency (news - web sites)
rejected that thinking in 1997.
At the time, the agency argued that overwhelming evidence
linked fine particles to disease. Industry groups sued the
EPA. The Supreme Court sided with the government in 2001.
Now a new study has led the industry to change its tactics.
The Aerosol Research and Inhalation Epidemiology Study, or
ARIES, is being coordinated by the Electric Power Research
Institute, which is funded largely by power companies.
Preliminary results from ARIES show that in Atlanta, health
problems are linked to particles emitted by cars and trucks,
not to particles from power plants.
Electric industry representatives cite ARIES as proof that
their particles aren't responsible for health problems.
''The type of pollution that is most significantly
associated with respiratory illness is organic forms of
(particle pollution), and those forms are most significantly
associated with automobile emissions,'' says Scott Segal, a
spokesman for the Electric Reliability Coordinating
Council.
Such research is important because it will help determine
''which emission to decrease in which area,'' Kinsman says.
''We need to get it right so we lower the right
particulate.''
Industry experts have briefed the EPA and members of
Congress on this research. They want the information to
influence the EPA's and Congress' deliberations on pollution
cuts by power plants.
They also hope to help shape the debate over ''new-source
review,'' a set of arcane rules that govern when polluters
have to upgrade their air-protection technology.
Legislators will consider the industry's arguments,
congressional staffers say.
''We're going to explore those studies in the hearing
process for Clear Skies,'' says Michael Cantizaro, spokesman
for Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla. Inhofe is chairman of the
Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. Clear Skies
is a Bush administration initiative intended to reduce power
plant pollution.
The EPA is considering whether to make rules more flexible
for power plants. In November, it announced more flexible
rules that apply to factories and refineries.
Plants 'aren't off the hook'
Brian MacLean, head of the EPA's Office of Atmospheric
Programs, says the agency has given ''careful
consideration'' to the studies presented by the power
companies. But he says there's a ''much larger number of
studies showing fine particles as a group, including
sulfates, are associated with mortality and other serious
health effects.''
Many scientists argue that the power industry isn't telling
the whole story. In particular, they cite the research on
sulfate. Several well-respected studies have tied sulfate to
cancer and heart and lung disease.
Scientists say it's possible that sulfate itself is
non-toxic. The true culprit might be traces of other
chemicals stuck to sulfate particles, or still-undiscovered
chemicals emitted alongside sulfate from power plant
chimneys.
Nevertheless, scientists say the research so far does not
exonerate power plants. They criticize the electric
industry's interpretation of ARIES. They say it is just one
study.
They also say that the study must be repeated in other
cities before its results are taken as fact. ''The power
companies are putting a spin on'' ARIES, says Douglas
Dockery of Harvard University, a pioneer in particulate
studies. ''Power plants aren't off the hook.''
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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