EV Digest 2591
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Civic Hybrid Upgrade
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV trading post scam
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV trading post scam
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Attention list owners, digest readers - List software defect
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Zappy Turbo motor needed
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: LiIons orientation info
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Think sighting
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Conspiracy theorist rant (was: RE: Civic Hybrid Upgrade)
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ampabout
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: BMS
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: OT: Metal suppliers
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: ampabout
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BMS
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Refinery Flares Pollution
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Question about Curtis 1221 with ADC 9"
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Nasty Todd Chargers
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BMS - getting long but you asked for it :-)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Question about Curtis 1221 with ADC 9"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Battery Management (was: Money talk.......)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: BMS - getting long but you asked for it :-)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question about plug in hybrids. The charge controller would need
to anticipate
when and where you would stop the car and whether you would want to plug it
in so that
the batteries would be discharged when you wanted to plug it in. When you
are
not planning to plug in, the batteries should be fully or nearly fully
charged to allow
the electric drive to assist next time power is demanded. How will this
anticipation of the
driver's intentions be accomplished?
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow folks, could you have come up with a scarier subject line? As the
creator/operator of the EV Tradin' Post I kind of freaked out when I saw
it. Thankfully it was neither myself nor one of my advertisers whom you
were discussing, but I was worried there for a moment.
A couple of folks with ads have mentioned getting a weird response
involving checks form Africa and such, and I have been trying to get a
note out to all of them warning about this scam. A CBS report on this was
pointed out by one of the C-Car egroup members, if you are interested you
can find the article at:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/01/eveningnews/main527883.shtml
FWIW, I do decline quite a few ads for the EV Tradin' Post, so far it has
always been because they were inappropriate (not EV related), not because
they were suspicious. I did pull two ads that were questioned by a buyer,
but after all parties verified that everything was on the up and up they
were re-posted.
BTW, if your not familiar with the EV Tradin' Post, it can be found at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geobook.html
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
300 volts referrs to the battery pack voltage. Some EV's are 48 volts, some
96 volts, some 120 volts, and some are "high voltage". The Prizm runs at 300
volts.
You can plug one into 110, 220, or a MagneCharger. The internal charger
takes care of the rest.
Range is as follows:
In the cold: 12 miles tops
In the summer: 28 miles tops
With new pack: 40+ miles reported.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
> Chris:
> I looked at the car online. When you say 300 volts, does that mean I'll
have
> to plug it into a 240? Also, what is your range?
> Christian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: US Electricar Prizm on Ebay
>
>
> > Alan:
> >
> > > Do you have a feel for the cost of shipping cross-country? FL to OR
is
> > > about as far as you can go roughly East/West and not get wet ;-)
> >
> > Don't know; it cost $500 to get it from Fla to MD. Really nice tow
> company.
> >
> > > For real? I was under the impression that most of the commercial
> > > conversions ran at the low end of the performance curve. I'm also
> > concerned
> > > that it has an automatic transmission, and finally, that the batteries
> are
> > > more accessible than they are on the S10s, especially as it will
likely
> > need
> > > a new set. But it does look like a possible way for me to get back
into
> > > an electric...
> >
> > For real, at least according to the speedo. Took everything to get it
> there,
> > but it is a pretty quick little car. No problems doing 70 on a warm day.
> > When it's cold like winter.... Well, she is a bit more pokey.
> >
> > The transmission is interesting. It's actually locked into second gear
> > forever, and the motor has all the torque you need. Actually the motor
and
> > controller have a nice programmed mode to put out lots of torque on the
> > bottom end, then once past 3600 it shifts into a speed mode. Really
nice.
> It
> > does not have a torque converter that I can see or feel. Would screw
with
> > the regen.
> >
> > The batteries are a real pain to get to. You have to drop the whole pack
> > down; which requires a lot of stuff. Not impossible; but not simple.
I've
> > found a pallet jack, a plate made of 1 inch plywood, 4*4's, and three
> jacks
> > do the job pretty well. And two engine hoists and an electric tractor
:-)
> >
> > It is without a doubt a nice conversion. These were the guys who
designed
> > the EV1. Very clean job. The biggest weakness to be honest is it's main
> > feature: The fact that you need 300 volts to run the AC drive. This
> > percludes using T105's (you're going to fit 50 of them in there how :-)
> and
> > the Hawker Genesis batteries though tough are small and pack only a
total
> > size of 15kw of lead. I guess I could put 25 80-100ah batteries in the
> back
> > seat and trunk, but I like having a back seat and trunk :-)
> >
> > I love mine.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have gotten two different versions of that offer. From different
> email addresses. The first one didn't come out with the strange scheme
> immediately but waited until I had sent them a few emails and then sent
> the stuff about the cashiers checks.
In my opinion, anyone getting this kind of offer should immediately contact
his local FBI field office and see if they want to pursue it. If you just
ignore them, they'll move on to someone less savvy.
Links to FBI field offices are at:
http://www.fbi.gov/contact/fo/fo.htm
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to chew up the bandwidth with geek-speak, but I've noticed
a defect in the list's anti-virus software, and I'm not sure who
to report it to.
Some people have complained in the past of truncated digests, and
I have just figured out what is happening.
Every time somebody sends a virus-infected message to the list,
the virus gets removed, and when this happens, the boundaries
between messages in the digest get messed up in such a way that
all messages from the virused one to the end of the digest seem
to be all one message.
An example of this has just occurred in digest 2590, where
message #25 had the Klez virus (pretending to be from Bill
Dube but actually from somebody using rcn.net).
This message, in the digest, has three parts:
(1) says: Found virus WORM_KLEZ.H in file Ohr.bat
The file is deleted.
(2) says: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message
(3) is what should have been message number 26, from Victor,
Re: BMS - getting long but you asked for it :-)
Other digests have had many more messages condensed into one.
List owners,
Can you please pass on the bug report to some appropriate person,
or suggest who I could send the report to?
Digest readers,
Any time you see one of those "virus deleted" messages, look
carefully to see if you can find any extra parts or attachments
to that message, because that will be where the lost digest
messages can be found, if your mail client will let you see them.
They probably show up as something like UNTITLED.ATT but if you
save them to your desktop with filenames like MESSAGE1.TXT you
should be able to read them.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
SuperGeekWoman
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
I posted this to the zappy list at Yahoo and thought I should toss it out
here too :-)
Thanks for any help!
------------------------
Howdy Folks!
Well... at least I _think_ it is a Zappy Turbo motor, a friend just
handed me this motor and said "see if you can find one", it has
obviously "let the smoke out".
I took some pictures, I am not too familiar with the Zappy scooters
though this looks like a Kollmorgen or possibly a Mac. (very similar
to Currie)
Pics here:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/zappy1.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/zappy2.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/zappy3.jpg
Did not see one for sale at nycewheels or evdeals.
Anybody got one?
email me off list if you want... roylemeur _at_ hotmail.com
Thanks!
-------------------
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If they are like Silver-Zinc cells, they are OK on their side unless you
cause them to vent. When they vent, the electrolyte may contaminate the vent
valves preventing them from controlling the internal cell pressure. If the
internal pressure is too low, the cell vents more easily and electrolyte
escapes. When enough electrolyte is lost, the cell impedance goes up and the
capacity goes down. On a deep discharge, the reduced capacity can cause cell
reversal. If cell reversal goes undetected, the temperature can go up and
cause damage outside the cell housing.
If you have cells on their side, leave adequate access to check for spewage
and space to clean it up if it happens. Don't bury them where you can't
check them or clean them.
You may have no problems, but it is like taking an umbrella to the ball
game: If you are prepared, you won't need it. If you are not prepared, you
won't have the resources to deal with it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 14, 2003 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: LiIons orientation info
> At 03:03 PM 2/14/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
> >Not saying he's wrong, I'm saying to tell it can work on the side
> >requires knowledge about it and responsibility for answers;
> >To tell [just in case] it cannot work on the side requires nothing.
> >
> >So take your pick.
>
> Well, we will know as soon as I can get a pack of them. At least 1/2 will
> have to be on their side to fit in my battery boxes.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After coming back from a job interview, I headed out on the
Redwood City streets toward the highway.
I spied a purple Think City EV in the right lane (I was in
the left lane). I caught up to the driver and honked.
He did not respond (as if he was not used to the attention).
I gave a thumbs up, in an effort not to scare him (why is
this blazer honking at me?).
We came along side each other to where our windows were
lined up (I had a captive audience at the light). I
rolled down my passenger window and spoke loudly to him,
but he did not roll his window down until the second time.
I repeated, "Its nice to see 'another' EV on the streets
(with a big smile)".
He smiled back, and said, "I just love it, its great! ...".
With a half a minute before the light would change, I
squeezed in, "Do you know of the Think EV discussion group
where all the Think drivers talk to each other? ..."
He said no with a slight movement of his head
(like, 'Who' is this guy?).
I told him to search for 'think_ev', then the light
changed, and we both 'had' to move, or the SUVs all
around us would get a nasty case of road rage.
We both peeled off away from each other through the
intersection, but I was left with the feeling that he
was an EV newbie, and may not of thought that my blazer
was Electric.
There he was, out there on his own, all alone, with
nothing but ICE all around him ...
Oh well, I hope he finds the wonderful wide world of
the EV community. And who knows I might see him again
on the Redwood City streets (or did my Passion and Zeal
for EVs scare him away from ever driving on 'that'
street where that weird guy honked at him!?!)
...
Oddly enough, for the very first time I had a slow
moving pick up truck pull out way in front of me on the
frontage road I take going home. It turned out to be a
CNG conversion.
Sheesh! Just as I am making notions and motions to move
away, I am starting to see all the afvs in my area!?!
He wasn't driving slow because it was a cng. He was
just another ol' codger that lives I my area (both
hands had a tight grip as he peered over the wheel
through coke-bottle-bottom glasses).
He didn't have hov decal stickers. If I ever caught up
to him, I got info for him as well.
-bruce :-zzz
: hopefully not an ol' codger, yet :
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
http://shopping.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 02:44:11PM -0500, Chris Tromley wrote:
> Damon Henry wrote:
> > Why else would they so consistently beat the "you never have
> > to plug it in" drum.
>
> I think you're right for the most part, the automakers are led around by
> their market research. But who are they asking? How many respondents
> have any experience at all with a car that needs to be plugged in?
I think it's much simpler than that: it seems to me that most advertising
is trying to make people think that something is better than something
else, which means there needs to be something worse. Most people don't
know anything about electrics, having never been exposed to them, and
even so, probably rightly understand that batteries are the big issue.
"never need to plug it in" kills two birds with one stone: it says "the
batteries aren't an issue", a negative, and then says "and we're an
improvement in convenience too". Never mind it's not much of an
improvement, few people know that. All advertising needs is something
to brag about, valid or not.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well put, Bruce. Sorry to see you go, but one of the nice things
about the Internet (for which a lot of the technology was made in
Silicon Valley) is that you can continue to stay connected from
afar. Maybe someday you can return, or maybe I will run into you
somewhere else (EV---(= =)----EV). EV call home...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2003 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: ampabout
> Last week, as part of an effort to complete needed tasks in
> preparation of relocating out the area, I stopped by a local
> store to bag some supplies for the trip (that's if no one
> hires me and breaks this job drought I am having).
>
> When I came back to my Blazer EV, I saw a bright red Think
> City EV (Euro model), parked in front of Trader Joe's
> (yuppie food store).
>
> It was a sweet sight to see, as I knew not only were the
> Euro models soon to be dragged away from the US drivers,
> but if I move I won't see Think Citys (nor any other EV for
> that matter).
>
> It touched me so, I took a long hard look at this nice EV
> that Ford abandoned. While all the ICE around the City were
> smattered with dirt from the brief rain shower, the City's
> plastic body looked as clean as new.
>
> There was plenty of room (even for Big Bruce) inside. The
> license plate holder said S & C Ford, so that SF dealership
> must still be making City EVs available for lease (but
> sadly, not for long).
>
> The dash had a Sony radio w/ CD in it. The City EVs I had
> driven at media EVents as part of the press, did not had
> a radio mounted. The driver had his gym bag in the back.
> This let me assume the driver was one of many Silicon
> Valley professionals.
>
> I stood gawking at the City EV as Trader Joe patrons tooled
> their small carts to their ICE, not understanding why I was
> pay so much attention to that car (what with that guy?).
>
> My size already 'stands out' so I decided to drop the
> tailgate on my blazer EV http://brucedp.150m.com/blazer/
> and wait for the owner to chat with them.
>
> I thought it was interesting to sit on my 85 Blazer
> conversion that I had bought converted in 92 because
> 'I was'nt going to wait' for a production EV. All of the
> effort I and the EV community put to push EV availability,
> had come true with the availability of production EVs
> like the Think City EV.
>
> That sort of made my EV, a classic and the City EV, the
> 'state of the art'.
>
> But no pats on the back would be enjoyed as there are
> no new production EVs being made. We all will have to go
> back the classic conversion if want to drive Electric.
>
> ...
> The driver came out to his City EV and popped the hatch
> to put his bags of organic and pesticide free food in the
> large rear area of the City EV.
>
> I walked over and introduced myself. Turns out Casey is
> on the Think_EV discussion group and knew me. Like many
> he was not sure if an EV would work for him, but the
> ability to rent an EV, allowed him to know driving
> Electric just was not that different and would work for
> him.
>
> I mentioned the dash control lever was positioned wrong,
> as it could be hit by the knees of tall Californians (not
> just me). Casey said he was giving a ride in his EV when
> a passenger said 'whats this' and took the EV out of drive
> while they were running on the road.
>
> He was really happy with his City EV, and sad if I moved
> out the area. But I assured him that I would still be
> supporting the EV cause, just remotely (if you can't pay
> the high cost of living in Silicon Valley, you move).
>
> We said our good-byes, and he took off out of the parking
> lot. I saw a couple that were about to load their bags
> into their huge SUV, turn their heads and say to each other,
> "Hey honey, look at the Electric ...".
>
> That was enough for me to go talk to them (of course). They
> were surprised to hear that Ford would stop production of
> 'such a nice little car'. They said they were from Europe
> and it was hard for them to understand why it was hard to
> get an EV and so easy to drive and SUV (he said with a slam
> of the SUV's rear hatch door).
>
> A flume of exhaust came when he started the American beast.
> He had to make a special effort to maneuver to exit the
> parking lot (there is never enough room for a huge SUV in
> a compact parking spot).
>
> Casey and the couple, both had the same amount of groceries.
>
> The SUV was easy to get, had way too much room unused, and
> was a pain to get its large body in and out of tight parking.
>
> The Think City EV hard to get, held the same groceries with
> still plenty of room for more, could seat both people, but
> backed out and 'zipped' out of the lot.
>
> An EV just makes too much sense.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
> http://shopping.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 15/02/03 01:47:27 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
> Deep discharges - they discharged it to 0V and kept it this way
> for 10 minutes. No sign of degradation. They overcharged other cell
> at 22'C with C/3 current to 4.63V and kept charging for 2.8 hours.
...and the effect on the performance of this expensive piece of chemistry
that we have put our hard earned cash into was?
The old hands on this list can recall quite a number of battricide events on
this list. Manually controlled chargers not shutting down, supposedly 'smart'
chargers not doing what they are supposed to, stretching the range (it'll be
ok just this once!) and reversing a cell at a couple of hundred amps. The
list could go on. I've seen two Optimas open under 90 amp loads due to
previous abuse. Both of these batteries gave rated capacity (1 hour) during
testing.
You can make quite a strong argument for a BMS for lead acid packs to improve
performance, extend life, and prevent potentially dangerous situations.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keith Richtman wrote:
I have marked this as off topic, but could easily argue it is on. I am
looking for some material for the NDSU solar car which is a BEV. Anyway,
our rear suspension is a trailing arm setup welded out of 4130 Steel
sheet (.048). The arms pivot on 2.93" ID bearings so we need 3" OD tube
for the pivots. Wall thickness is not important as we can turn it
down. I have been unable to find 3" OD tube and solid bar is far too
expensive. Anyone know of any suppliers I should look into?
You might try The Metal Source
11 Forbes Rd., Woburn, MA 01801
Tel: 781-932-0482
http://www.admiralmetals.com/metal_distributors.htm
They are geared towards the small-time builder/hobbiest and ship UPS.
But for something less common like this it is a matter of luck as to
what they have at the time.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
But no pats on the back would be enjoyed as there are
no new production EVs being made. We all will have to go
back the classic conversion if want to drive Electric.
Although Detroit let us down, I hope we can at least look to a new
generation of better-than-classic conversions. The last decade or so has
seen the change from Curtis to Auburn to DCP to Zilla controllers on the
DC hobbyist side and recently Victor has made AC drives available to
commoners. My point being that classic adjectives like "wimpy" and
"sluggish" no longer need to be associated with conversions.
Goals for my next truck include: 50 mile minimum range on a bad day and
100+ HP so able to play in Boston traffic or maintain 60 mph up the
local Big Hill. It turns out someone else near me has an EV with DCP
controller and Optima's and can zip right up that hill. Finding a
combination of available parts to do this with a truck has caused me
great frustration, but I still think it is doable. And sorry, but I've
ruled out the NiZn batteries, as production and disposal are important
parts of the equation for me, even if reliability was assured.
I got into my present truck with a $10,000 budget and probably added
another $5000+ over the years. For the same money today, I could get an
electric truck with similar range, better performance, and all the fit
and finish of an OEM AC setup. Unfortunately not from the local
dealership, but at least its obtainable with persistence. My thought is
if I throw a bit more money at it for NiCads, I can get the range I
want. Hopefully.
The driver came out to his City EV and popped the hatch
to put his bags of organic and pesticide free food in the
large rear area of the City EV.
Trader Joe's may sell more "image" than "organic", but that is for
another list...
An EV just makes too much sense.
a-yep. Perhaps the silver lining to Bruce having to move is the chance
to advertise to a whole new set of people.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Current Eliminator dragster could not have gotten 300+ runs on Inspira
batteries an set new records without BMS.True it is a homemade system, but
its been trouble free for 3+years,and now charges the car in 12-14 minutes
between qt.mi.runs. nedra ---------- OUTLAW
Dennis Kill A Watt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out this story in the SF Chron
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/02/15/MN58562.DTL
(If the link goes away before you get there, let me know and I'll email it
to you. I saved it.)
Don't miss the link to the chart. Keep these numbers handy the next time
someone brings up the old pollution-at-the-power-plant distraction.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I'm helping a local EV'er, not on this list, with his 120VDC Toyota truck
conversion that he had bought used. After he put batteries in and drove it
for a number of months, it recently left him stranded with an EV frown! I
just diagnosed that he has a dead Curtis 1221C, so he is thinking about
buying a used 1221B from another local EV'er to replace it. I had heard,
and I think Peter mentioned this recently on the list, that the 1221 is too
small for the 9". Does anyone know if this is model specific, like the "B"
might be better, or should he switch to a 1231? His truck is an early
standard cab, and a lot lighter than mine, and I had to switch from a 1231
to a H2O cooled Raptor because the 1231 was overheating, even after adding
a larger heat sink. I think he experienced a thermal cutback one day last
summer, but otherwise the 1221C has been trouble free. Also, his controller
is mounted directly behind the cab in a utility box (on a large heat sink),
which I've heard can help with the mismatch when used with the 9" motor, in
that the longer cables add inductance.
Thanks for your time,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Executive VP of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
(With an emphasis on youth education)
http://www.devc.org/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
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This is a cross-over request from another list that I belong to:
Does anybody know who does repairs to Todd battery chargers (besides me?).
I have permanently left the Todd charger repair "profession".
Since beginning to repair these units, I have managed to find only a very
few that were an "easy repair". Most needed extensive diagnostics and
rebuilding. Too many of them blew up on the test bench during full load,
and required additional repairs at my expense, often in excess of what they
were sent in for. I've never managed to make any useful amounts of money
repairing them, and in most cases, I ended up working for less than
$2.00/hr. by the time packaging and shipping were figured in. Some are
still here, awaiting my attention while their impatient owners shower me
with bad vibes for not getting them back in order sooner.
In all, I consider the Todds a quirky, hair-trigger design, that is running
on the ragged edge of self-destruction even when it is operating properly.
I won't miss the pressure of having a corner of my shop piled with their
carcasses.
Despite all that there my still be someone out there who has more patience
than I do and could service the units that I will now be turning away.
Anyone up for self-abuse?
-S
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At 5:32 PM -0800 2/14/03, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
My final point is, if you don't have hardware BMS but not
neglecting your pack, keeping eye on it and correct things
promptly, its failure not only far from certainty, it will be less
chances than with unattended automated BMS. And so far experiments
I'm aware of show that effort is far less than with PbA which
happen to be ill sensitive to everything, thus cheap.
As always, welcome to disagree, there is no winner or looser here.
Victor, I wonder if you've learned anything from all the batteries
you've killed? The way you write makes me very worried for anyone who
might unknowingly take your voice as the word of experience.
There are definitely losers here, Anyone who takes your advice and
tries to manually monitor their packs will likely end up a loser of
money in the long run. If you can't make a set of Optimas last over
500 cycles, then I would strongly advise against experimenting with a
much more expensive lithium pack.
It is well known that it is impractical to manually balance AGM
packs. Many of us have tried and realize that at one time or another,
the rest of our life interferes with doing it well. From what I've
heard it's more important to protect lithium ion packs. Manual
balancing is a possibility, but only if the vehicle has a battery
monitoring system to halt any activity which would shorten the life
of the batteries. When the vehicle is stopped and won't run, then at
least you can be sure that the user will balance the back in a timely
manner.
I have a friend who had been testing some of the latest large lithium
cells for hybrids. As I understand it, safety is not the issue here,
its lifetime. And to get rated lifetime you need to avoid overcharge
on any cell as well as prohibit any cell from ever going negative.
As for the question of MOSFETS on each cell, this is just ridiculous.
There is a simple way to do this. The BMS must accurately read the
voltage of each cell, then it must limit the controller draw and the
charger power in order to keep the batteries in a reasonable working
window. That way there is no need for disconnecting each cell.
My personal belief is that this level of integration has been lacking
in both the EV conversions, and the early production cars. This is
something which we can fix. I am slowly working toward it with my
products. When we finally have the BMS controlling both the charger
and the controller, then we should be heading toward read battery
system reliability.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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If memory serves, the 1221 is 400 amps maximum, the 1231 is 550 amps
max. I think the "B" and "C" refers to the switching frequency
revisions. At the least, he should switch to a 1231. I feel that the
1231 is still undersized and would suggest a DCP (if can find one) or
the soon-to-be baby Zillas.
The original owner/convertor of my truck started with a 1221 at 120
volts and a 9" ADC; he upgraded to the 1231 when Curtis came out with
that model. I let the smoke out of the 1231 and put in a DCP and have
been fine ever since. Even a gentle start with the heavy truck can pull
peaks of 600-700 amps on the motor side, which means that the Curtis was
regularly maxing out which probably didn't help its life span any.
David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
I'm helping a local EV'er, not on this list, with his 120VDC Toyota truck
conversion that he had bought used. After he put batteries in and drove it
for a number of months, it recently left him stranded with an EV frown! I
just diagnosed that he has a dead Curtis 1221C, so he is thinking about
buying a used 1221B from another local EV'er to replace it. I had heard,
and I think Peter mentioned this recently on the list, that the 1221 is too
small for the 9". Does anyone know if this is model specific, like the "B"
might be better, or should he switch to a 1231? His truck is an early
standard cab, and a lot lighter than mine, and I had to switch from a 1231
to a H2O cooled Raptor because the 1231 was overheating, even after adding
a larger heat sink. I think he experienced a thermal cutback one day last
summer, but otherwise the 1221C has been trouble free. Also, his controller
is mounted directly behind the cab in a utility box (on a large heat sink),
which I've heard can help with the mismatch when used with the 9" motor, in
that the longer cables add inductance.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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b.t.w. failure rate for 30 x 5% is (1 - (0.95 ^ 30)) = 0.78536... = 79%,
not %150.
You have to view it as how many cells will fail within the
warranty period. If only one cell fails, the pack is dead (or on fire.) As
the pack grows, the odds of a cell failing increase. If 5% of the three
cell packs fail, then 1 pack in 20 will fail, then one cell in 60 will
fail. If you have 90 cell packs, EVERY pack will fail within the warranty
period.
It's worse than that. This assumes that you are regulating each
three-cell group! With no regulation, there is no hope whatsoever.
Regardless of how you work the math, it is very likely that you
will ruin very expensive cells without a BMS.
We can all talk about the benefits and problems of new technology until we
are blue in the face, extrapolating from completely unrelated situations
to suit whichever argument we are making, but it all means nothing until
someone actually puts it in their car and tries it out.
That's what we need to do. Try it out. Discover the real problems. Work
out solutions.
Needlessly toasting expensive Li-Ion packs does no one any good.
Conversely, figuring out how to make these packs last and be economically
viable serves the entire community. Experience has shown that a BMS is
REQUIRED to make these packs survive. The best approach to a successful
application of Li-Ion cells to EVs is to figure out how to make a clever
and inexpensive BMS, not to ignore the requirement and ruin a bunch of cells.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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At 06:32 PM 2/14/03, you wrote:
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> If you are planning to use Li-Ion batteries, you absolutely need an
> automatic battery management system (BMS) that works on a cell level. To
> run these cells without a BMS in place is foolhardy.
I suppose this message is mainly a reply to my previous email.
I can respond with what I know. I'll be taking from a non-racer point
of view and also without bias of using laptop type LiIons for years
with all their problems.
> Lead acid batteries, like the several sets of Optima batteries
you have
> gone through, are pretty robust and will withstand a substantial amount of
> abuse before failing. This is not the case with Li-Ion batteries. Minor
> mistreatment will cause damage. Mistreatment with any regularity will cause
> complete and rapid failure.
I'm not disagreeing, but this is just an opinion. Data please.
Cycle life data is expensive and time consuming. I am simply
restating what the engineers at Li-Ion battery plants have told me. I
haven't taken data myself.
> Self-discharge is a function of temperature and is also is strongly
> altered by minor manufacturing differences. Charge efficiency is also a
> function of temperature and is also strongly altered by minor manufacturing
> differences. These differences "stack up" in a high-voltage pack.
What do you mean stack up? DO you mean in 90 cells pack it's going
to be more than one out of balance? It will always be a fixed
percentage of out of balance cells (number depends on manufacturer).
So?
For a fixed length of time, the lowest and highest SOC become more
diverse as the number of cells increase. The cell environment also become
more variable as the number of cells increase. Thus, for any selected A-hr
charge-discharge cycle, the odds of damaging a cell increases as the pack
size increases.
Remember, you only have to over-charge or over-discharge ONE cell
to ruin the pack (or set it on fire.)
> A > high-voltage pack can get out of balance quite easily and
relatively quickly.
>
> The statistics eat you alive. With each cell you add, the
frequency and
> severity of the imbalance increases Even though you might be able to "get
> away with" no BMS on a low-voltage pack of three or four cells, it doesn't
> extrapolate to many cells in series
I already posted some data available to me: these 18 cells in series
work without any integrated BMS for a half year in a real life vehicle:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bat_comparison.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/carboot.jpg
The cells are checked by human being often and when any gets out of
average by the amount the owner believes is too much, he corrects it.
All I know the correction was needed a few times since the pack
was installed; the rest of the time the pack was (and is) being
closely watched for, but nothing was done to it.
18 cells is not 90 cells. You will have to do 25 times more work
to achieve the same result. You have five times as many cells to check and
you will have to check them five times more often, because they are five
times more likely to get out of balance. You will wear out the probes on
your voltmeter.
Experience with computer related LiIons biases you and you inadvertainly
apply this experience to valved EV sized LiIons.
The major differences are:
Computer LiIons are always totally sealed and encapsulated
in plastic - if doe any reason pressure builds up, they crack.
At least Thunder-sky ones have pressure relief valve - similar
to Optima valve.
Unlike AGMs, if Li-Ion cells vent, they are damaged.
Computer LiIons as you mentioned almost always have internal chip
measuring cell(s) condition and not allowing to charge or
drain too much. It uses MOSFETs in series (often two - Nch and Pch)
to disconnect the battery, and shunts to measure current.
You aren't monitoring anything in real time.
Computer packs are subjected to a large temp gradients -
one side always facing out (ambient) and opposite side is near
hottest components (CPU and stuff). This is great source of
internal leakage and uneven self-discharge rates.
EV packs have it worse.
EV cells can be placed in one enclosure - it's not easy but
doable and up to the user.
Typically not.
Computer cells have no thermal management - just monitoring.
EV cells can be cooled off, heated, whatever.
You are no proposing that. Also, you are not proposing individual
thermal management to control imbalance.
Large cells are not as fragile and far more robust than you may
believe. From the safety tests report I have (translated),
200Ah cell shorted only start smoking 10 min later, providing
about 900A current all this time. Cylindrical cell heated to
100'C (boiling water temp) for 2 hours did not show degradation
in appearance; no data how (if) the capacity changed are given
though.
The thermal time constants are different, but the damage
mechanisms are identical, regardless of the size of the cell. Also, we are
talking about BMS and SOC balancing, not short circuit safety.
Deep discharges - they discharged it to 0V and kept it this way
for 10 minutes. No sign of degradation.
No change in cycle life?
What about reversal?
They overcharged other cell
at 22'C with C/3 current to 4.63V and kept charging for 2.8 hours.
Temp raised to 39'C, no problems reported. They kept overcharging
further: to 4.86V (10A) for 13 min, 37'C, no problem. Further
to 5.04V at 20A for 10 more minutes. 54'C but no other problems.
Kept further with 30A for 2 min. Voltage reached 18V, temp 88'C
and then the cell catched fire and exploded.
This would be what would happen to an unbalanced cell on a long
downhill regen charge or simply during ordinary charging if no cell
monitoring were present.
Well, for 324V pack this means 450V on charge is still safe,
No. You assume equal SOC for all cells. Without a BMS, it is a
guaranty that cells will NOT be in balance.
Point being, imbalance seem to stay with the cells and within
normal conditions does not get progressively worse.
Becoming unbalanced is what batteries do best. When you reverse a
cell during discharge, it gets hot and vents. This reduces its capacity
further and increases the self-discharge, making the problem worse. You
also have to reform the cell in the correct polarity before it can charge
correctly, getting it further behind its pals.
Do you have a data from the real vehicle where initially
balanced multiple cells were installed and they got out of balance
in short order and destroyed the pack? Answer is...
Not on Li-Ion, but I have plenty of lead-acid data. We all do.
It is well known that you can overcharge an AGM lead-acid battery
slightly with no harm done. It is also well known that you can
over-discharge an AGM lead-acid battery slightly with no harm done. It is
foolhardy to run a high-voltage AGM pack without a BMS of some sort. The
pack won't last long without one.
Since Li-Ion cells are well-known to suffer damage from even
slight overcharge or over-discharge, it is beyond foolhardy to run a Li-Ion
pack without a BMS.
> It's even worse than that. The cells you are talking about buying are NOT
> carefully matched. In a large pack, the temperature will vary greatly
Not necessarily, depends on the box construction. Mix the air or
water forcefully. LiIon Think City prototype is built this way.
Are you planning to do this? Wouldn't a BMS be cheaper and simpler?
> The end cells will run close to ambient temperature and the interior
cells will
> run much hotter. In winter, there will be a major temperature gradient on
> the pack. (The cables that go from the pack to the controller act as large
> "fins" that transfer heat very well to and from the end cells/batteries.)
Racer heads... :-D
The "cables" you're talking about are just gauge 4 wires. Remember,
you're the one calculated and suggested this for me a while ago?
Do the heat transfer calculation for an infinite copper fin of
that diameter. Remember, none of the other cells have this added cooling.
Once you calculate the added cooling, using the thermal mass of a cell,
calculate how many extra degrees it will lose in a couple of hours.
As of the temp, in my case doesn't change at all as I drive. Vented box
will do just fine.
The end cells are different than the interior batteries. Measure
them all and you will see.
> It's even worse than THAT. In a three-cell pack, a low or high cell
> voltage will significantly alter the overall pack voltage. Thus, the extent
> of overcharge or over-discharge is likely to be quite small. The device
> with shut off or the charger will top out before the voltage gets too wild
> on any one cell. In a high-voltage pack, the voltage of a single cell is
> buried in the noise. The severity of the overcharge or over-discharge of a
> single out-of-balance cell is much greater and failure will thus occur much
> sooner in a high-voltage pack.
All you have to do, Bill, is clamp the max to 4.2V per cell. Just like
MK2 do. When last cell is clamped, the charger throttles back.
Nothing more complex than that really needed (provided some other
conditions like equal temp are met).
But you are proposing NO BMS. This clamp system would work OK
unless the capacity of one cell started to fade, then you would have a pack
fire on the road when it reversed.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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