EV Digest 2604
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Quiet Snowmobiles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Test of EV list
by "Trotman Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) ev tax credit question
by GreenVW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Civic Hybrid Upgrade
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BMS cost (was Re: LIN bus link)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) sunset from space OT
by Daniel J Rivest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an\' stuff
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Civic Hybrid Upgrade
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an\' stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV1s waiting - a hobbyest inspired corporation
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Real Quiet here!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: torque rod
by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: (Shunt) controller options
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) EV1s Escape Crusher for the Big Apple
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Force Update, the Saga Continues..........
by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE:
re:New Product - AC Drive System
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Force Update, the Saga Continues..........
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an\' stuff
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Force Update, the Saga Continues..........
by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) EVLN(Job: hybrid Engineer in Kalamazoo)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Looks like someone is already on it. Are you on the list? Just wondering
if Yellowstone will get the electric alternative?
http://www.deq.state.mt.us/CleanSnowmobile/solutions/engine/hansen.pdf
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Test...are you out there
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Has anyone out there successfully claimed the federal tax credit for an ice
to ev conversion. I have read IRS Publication 535 and Form 8834, but
neither seem to cover the tax credit for a conversion which is not being
used for business. From what I have read, I can claim a credit of 10% of
the cost of the ev (does this include the purchase price of the running ICE
donor?) to a maximum credit of $4,000. Any information would be
appreciated.
Ben Graves
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384.html
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Adam Kuehn wrote:
> But if it does all that, is there no performance penalty? Remember,
> we are starting with the assumption that this is supposed to be an
> "unlimited" range vehicle. But how do you effectively couple that
> with a need for plugging in at your destination?
Adam,
I think you make a mistake assuming that gas car has unlimited range.
It's not, a gas station nozzle has to be plugged into it every
300-400 miles to replenish energy storage. And, if you forget
to do it, today's bullet proof gas car won't run at all -
maximum performance penalty. Yet, people forget to refuel
time to time, or choose to try to "make it home", and get
stuck on a freeway. This doesn't mean they are idiots, does it?
Electric is no different, you make it not run if user forgets
to plug it in, exactly the same thing. ("refueling", i.e. charging
time is different story, it CAN be made short enough, we're
discussing principle On the level 1 charger you may need 10 min
charging to go another 10 miles).
>From the user view point I don't see a difference. If he/she
forgets to refuel (gas) / recharge (EV) a car will (should) stop.
Forgetting and being an idiot are very different states of mind :-)
Victor
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This is sure the winner price wise, the only draw back I see is doing
one battery at the time. If you have 10 of them, you have enough time.
If you have 90 individual cells and recharging time (like in my case)
is under 1 hour, it becomes problematic, but in several cycles I guess
doable. And, if one relay ever gets stuck, your system better
detect it quick. I believe, this is what your balancer with BS2
brains does, is it?
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Unspoken consensus is that about 15% of the battery pack is
> > in the BMS is acceptable. Make it 20% for good BMS.
> > For $150 LiIon cell (in quantity) this means the module
> > must be $30 or less. Tough, but doable. 15% would be $22.5
> >
> > I don't believe one can even break even, the parts alone will cost
> > $15...$20. Doing it as a hobby spending money as for everything else
> > is OK, but selling such thing at some profit will be very difficult
> > task, unless mass produced and committed customer(s) exist.
>
> This is why I think the only practical option is to have one DPST relay
> and fuse per battery. It's not hard to put a relay in an environmentally
> sealed package, and make it work despite stupendous noise levels.
> Depending on how much current you want to allow (charge, discharge, or
> just measurement), it then becomes fairly easy to get under $10 per
> module finished cost.
>
> Then you only have one expensive central controller. It needs enough
> outputs to select any one of the relays, and then then does all its
> voltage measurements (and charge or discharge currents) thru the single
> pair of high-current wires.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Totally OT but an incredible picture
sunset from space http://www.jokesnstuff.net/surprise/sunsetspace.htm
Daniel
Beyond Oil
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--- Begin Message ---
> >
> > This may read like the hopeful musings of an enviro-socio-idealist. Not
> > true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm grasp of
> > what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this happen, yet
> > so far. We could literally change the face of personal transportation.
> > How do we get there?
> >
> > Chris
> >
If I don't think about this everyday!
I have been thinking lately that just exposing ev's to people is where we
are right now . Most of the people I show my EV to have never seen one or
been in one ,it that new, . Before people start wanting them lots will have
to see and ride in conversions first. Stage 2 is where we try to keep up
with consumer demand , We are in stage I were we let the consumer know there
is a better product, . so How do we do that. ? Leave you hood up , EV
shows , clubs (must be nice to be where there's more that one) . When each
town has a person who works on EV's like golf carts, NEV's and conversions
then will be ready for stage 2. I'll bet there are a lot of people who would
like to start a local EV biss.
Steve Clunn
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> The car can start the gasoline engine when needed to prevent
>> serious battery discharge. It can also keep driving on electric
>> when "nearly" out of gas (or oil or coolant) to prevent damage
>> to the engine or its fuel system. These are both *improvements*
>> over standard cars, and makes them *more* bullet-proof.
Adam Kuehn wrote:
> But if it does all that, is there no performance penalty? Remember,
> we are starting with the assumption that this is supposed to be an
> "unlimited" range vehicle. But how do you effectively couple that
> with a need for plugging in at your destination?
If you used lead-acid batteries, then it would shorten battery life to
routinely leave them in a discharged state. But suppose you used nicads.
Their life is not materially reduced if you let them sit discharged.
So, a very simple control algorithm would be that the car runs as a pure
EV until the battery SOC is (say) 20%. When it reaches this level, then
it starts the gasoline engine, and runs it at an optimal power setting
until the batteries return to (say) 80% SOC.
If you routinely plug in when parked, you could go for weeks on end
before ever reaching 20% SOC, and so never run the engine. But if you
rarely (or never) plug in, the car will run a few days as an EV, then
one as an ICE, then EV, then ICE, etc.
> Either you make it bullet-proof so that there is no risk to the
> batteries, but take a severe performance hit when you reach
> maximum safe discharge; or you accept battery damage risk to improve
> system performance. I still can't see a reasonable way to meet in
> the middle.
I think you are much more fearful of damaging the system than you need
to be. EVs obviously run their batteries down all the time; the good
ones still last many years. ICEs obviously run their engines under
wildly varying conditions, too -- when cold, long periods idling, lots
of stop-and-go; in fact *most* of the time they are being operated far
from their optimal point. They still last hundreds of thousands of
miles.
Combining the EV and ICE is going to be easier on *both* powerplants.
The EV will do what it does best; handle the short-range low-speed
stop-and-go driving. The ICE does what it does best; run at a constant
high-power load for long periods of time.
> Two points: First, it is a mistake to assume that a bullet-proof
> design is assuming that people are idiots.
No, of course not. But the two *are* related. If you design something so
there is no penalty for doing it wrong, people WILL do it wrong on
purpose. So, speaking as an engineer, I need to design things so that
even a customer who is *trying* to break it will fail.
I'll never succeed; idiots are maddeningly clever! But I have to try :-)
> Those people - the majority of the target audience - are almost
> certainly not going to be thinking much about the car itself, and
> going to forget to plug in from time to time. This will risk the
> life of the battery pack, which also happens to be the most
> expensive component in the vehicle.
All this means is that you don't use ultra high performance but fragile
battery systems, just as you don't use an ultra high performace race car
engine in a family sedan. A conservative hybrid design would use rugged
old-fashioned batteries, and a fairly simple control systems. It won't
get the maximum performance, but it will be sufficiently rugged to still
do a good job.
> Second, your comment doesn't at all address the underlying concern -
> how do you combine good vehicle performance and sufficient reliance
> on the battery system to require a plug-in at the destination? Heck,
> *I* don't always know how far I'll be travelling on a given trip.
> How is the car supposed to know and adjust to a variable length trip
> while still giving decent performance?
The key is that the EV and ICE systems back each other up. It doesn't
matter if you guess wrong, and can't plug in when you reach your
destination. You just burn more gas.
I guess what I'm saying is that the "optimazation problem" for a hybrid
is so complicated that you can't solve it. So dont' bother to try. Even
a solution that's close will be better than a hybrid that you can't plug
in at all.
>> Just as people can be trusted to have manual transmissions, they
>> can be trusted to decide when to use gasoline or electric. Sure,
>> not all people; but give them the choice!
> This, I agree with. The default should be automatic, but I wouldn't
> mind having a switch that allowed the driver the freedom to choose.
> Choosing manual mode would almost necessarily have to void any
> battery warranty, though.
Why? Batteries are pretty predictible over the long haul. If you drive
your ICE car like a madman, it breaks down sooner. If you drive or EV
like a nut, you kill the batteries sooner.
I can understand why Toyota and Honda provide very long battery
warranties; it't to allay people's fears. But that is not a realistic
long-term strategy -- it traps us with hybrids that make negligible use
of their batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ok, so lets get together and write a business plan to get funding
> and start this dream now.
My vote would be to build a clone of the EV1. This way, anyone who
"signs on" knows exactly what they will get. We would set out to
duplicate it as closely as possible, just substituting parts that are
more readily available for many of the original custom parts.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I completely agree, but I need to figure out some numbers first.
I cant see people paying the below price for this:
A completely rebuilt Honda Civic del Sol (or insert any other semi-cool
early/mid 90s sports car available used for $3k, and rebuildable (new
seats, new interior panels, paint job, CVT transmission, etc.) for a
total of another $4k, or SAFE kit car, making your donor no more than
$7k), with awesome AC drive system (100kw, mmm, around $6k, inverter,
drive, contactors, etc.), 252volt 100ah volt thunder-sky li-ion pack
($7800, begging for the 1000count price, while only buying 300, but
promising to buy more in the future), various welding and modifications
(AC, power brakes/stearing, $1k), useable charger/BMS (maybe inductive?
budget of $4k), all those other little things needed (e-meter or cooler
replacement, LRR tires, brakes, a badge, who knows, budget of $1k). I
know some of these numbers I pulled out of a hat, but I cant see anyone
paying $26,500 for an electric sports car, and we'd need to sell 50.
Can someone find a way to either get a better donor, or something that
would make the car sellable at that price? I feel that the AC drive
system and Li-Ion batteries are on the necessity list, as a vehicle
worth any money needs to have a decent range with some wiggle room, but
still perform. Please help me build on this.
-Sam
On Thursday, February 20, 2003, at 06:42 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ok, so lets get together and write a business plan to get funding and
start this dream now.
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 16:29:48 -500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Count me in. :) I have a little funding available to me, but nothing
near 15 million. I'd love to do this, buit lack some time (being a
student), and the experience (although interested and
semi-competant). I wish this stuff was a little cheaper, then I'd
be all over it.
-Sam
Bob Rice wrote:
Some of this inginuity were applied to EV
technology, as well as energy saving stuff too. So we
wouldn't need so much oil. Just the talent on this List,
ganged up anf funded, could get EV's out there in big no.s
Hi Bob,
I couldn't agree more. All the talent we need is right here on
this
list right now. Unfortunately, we all need our day jobs to
support us.
Is there anyone on the list who knows someone with more net worth
than
they will ever need, and a big heart? It's a serious question.
Twenty
to thirty employees, 15000 to 20000 sq. ft., maybe fifteen million
dollars (a big chunk of that for marketing). Shoot for 200
vehicles the
first year, ramping up to 1000/year in five years. DO NOT TRY TO
BE THE
NEXT GM OR FORD. Start small. Get a fully-functional EV
available to
the public. Market it like the new thing it truly is. They will
buy.
Then you grow.
I have zero doubt that a company made from the talent of this list
could
open the eyes of the public to a whole new way to drive. The only
unknown in my mind is the certification process. How long, how
much?
For that matter, the quickest way to put production EVs on the
road is
simply to fund the certification and production tooling of Rick
Woodbury's Tango. Rick could probably have cars on the market
within
months of certification.
This may read like the hopeful musings of an
enviro-socio-idealist. Not
true. This is from an engineering manager with a pretty firm
grasp of
what can and cannot be done. We are so near to making this
happen, yet
so far. We could literally change the face of personal
transportation.
How do we get there?
Chris
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob,
I also just got about 50 messages from various lists after only getting
16 earlier today just after 5 pm.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:32:51 -0500 "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Hi All;
>
> Is the list down? Really quiet here.! Not getting my daily feed
> of EV
> stuff!
>
> Seeya??
>
> Bob
>
>
________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Only problem with the $25000 to $35000 Tango is that it cannot compete
> economically with a $ 10000 Echo that gets 35 miles per gallon.
As soon as you want the cheapest solution, you are guaranteeing the
status quo wins. The cheapest solution is ALWAYS to use what you've
already got, what's already been done; don't do anything new or
different.
When you decide to "go" for an EV, you have made a decision NOT to
decide on price or economics. You know it will cost more, but are
choosing to do it for other reasons.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Dimensions of the Inverter would be helpful. And cost.
At 12:10 PM 2/21/2003, you wrote:
Hey guys. I'm talking with a manufacturer now, because I want to resell
their AC drive systems. I'm not really doing this to sell product, but I
want to learn more about products, and I think this is a way to do
so. Would people be interested in a drive system with these specs:
Inverter
-100kw power rating
-Input from 12-400 VDC
-Peak current: 400 amps Nominal current: 300 amps
-Efficiency - 97.5%
-Liquid cooled
-Output - three-phase AC for flux vector or Volt/hz controlled induction
motors
-Features such as pot-box control, cruise control, regen braking, vehicle
reverse, and real-time diagnostics
-10lbs
Motor
-Peak power - 100kw/135HP, continuous power - 50kw/67HP
-Peak output : 300nm/220lbft, continuous output - 150nm/110lbft
-Base speed - 3000rpm
-Max speed - 6000rpm
-Efficiency - 92%
-3 in. long (4.75in long total), 11.2in diameter
-45lbs
-Water cooled
-Built-in encoders for inverter
-Sam Harper
Distortion Networks, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
678-758-4615
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I got one from a Honda Accord, I forget what year. I just looked
around in the you pull junkyard...
-Jeremy
On Friday, February 21, 2003, at 03:44 PM, Seth Murray wrote:
Does anyone know where to get a nice torque rod? I would like to find
one with the rubber vibration absorbers on the ends. Thanks in
advance for any info
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
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Hi All
Had a request for a controller to replace a couple of rather old
shunt-field units by the local railway. There are two control methods, one
has a pot, the other is to be controlled by either 0 to 5V, 0 to 10V, or 4
to 20mA.
So we are looking for a controller to PWM a field (several applications)
over ranges up to 70A. B+ is nominally 110VDC, I talked to the Australian
importer of Curtis controllers, the ones that he knows of that can cope
with that voltage are 400+Amp units, and priced accordingly.
These might be just what you want. If you check the continuous
ratings you'll see that they are much lower, I think maybe 250A. My
guess is that you'll have a tough time finding a better deal.
What is available in a manufactured item PWM controller that meets the
following spec?
- B+ maximum 150V
- Max current up to 100A
- isolated from case to 1500V <4mSec, alternatively we can add
supplimentary case isolation.
It should handle this, But you may want to mount it on plastic
standoffs just to be sure.
- Choice of pot or voltage inputs
The Pot is simple since they run on 0 to 5K ohm. You'll need to make
a circuit on the outside to make it a voltage input.
If your volumes are high enough then it could justify a custom unit,
but It sounds like it's just a few repairs, not 1000.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Zilla controllers, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
Looks good , any idea on the price for the whole set up .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Harper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 10:10 AM
Subject: New Product - AC Drive System
> Hey guys. I'm talking with a manufacturer now, because I want to
> resell their AC drive systems. I'm not really doing this to sell
> product, but I want to learn more about products, and I think this is a
> way to do so. Would people be interested in a drive system with these
> specs:
>
> Inverter
> -100kw power rating
> -Input from 12-400 VDC
> -Peak current: 400 amps Nominal current: 300 amps
> -Efficiency - 97.5%
> -Liquid cooled
> -Output - three-phase AC for flux vector or Volt/hz controlled
> induction motors
> -Features such as pot-box control, cruise control, regen braking,
> vehicle reverse, and real-time diagnostics
> -10lbs
>
> Motor
> -Peak power - 100kw/135HP, continuous power - 50kw/67HP
> -Peak output : 300nm/220lbft, continuous output - 150nm/110lbft
> -Base speed - 3000rpm
> -Max speed - 6000rpm
> -Efficiency - 92%
> -3 in. long (4.75in long total), 11.2in diameter
> -45lbs
> -Water cooled
> -Built-in encoders for inverter
>
> -Sam Harper
> Distortion Networks, Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 678-758-4615
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Apparently not all EV1s will meet their fate with the Grim Crusher. The New
York State Department of Environmental Conservation (NYSDEC) has apparently
been in discussions with GM to use EV1s that have just come off lease in
California. The vehicles will be used so New York can meet its ZEV mandate.
GM claims the vehicles are not being taken away from their California
owners. Instead they are saying the vehicles are "coming off lease".
The EV1s headed to the Big Apple will be fully reconditioned NiMH models.
Interesting to hear how the CARB reacts to this news, especially after being
sued by GM, then taking the cars and using them for ZEV credits in another
state. Absolutely incredible.
For your reading pleasure here is the document that explains it all . . .
Chip Gribben
************************************
Intent to Approve General Motor's Alternative Compliance Plan for Meeting
NYSDEC 6 NYCRR Part 218-4 Zero Emission Vehicle Requirements
General Motors Corporation (GM) has submitted a proposed Alternative
Compliance Plan (ACP) in accordance with the provisions of subpart 218-4.2
for the generation of Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) credits for compliance
with New York State's ZEV mandate. The New York State Department of
Environmental Conservation (Department) proposes to approve that plan. The
proposed plan includes information claimed by General Motors as business
confidential. Therefore, a summary of the proposal is included, as described
below.
Summary of General Motors Corporation Alternative Compliance Plan.
General Motors Corporation (GM) will place into service a number of
reconditioned EV 1 battery electric automobiles, equipped with advanced
Nickel metal hydride batteries. These are vehicles which have recently come
off lease in California, and have been thoroughly reconditioned, and
batteries brought up to specific standards. The vehicles will be placed in
service with employees at GMs Global Alternative Propulsion Center (GAPC) in
Honeoye Falls, New York. The vehicles will be used by employees at the site
as regular use vehicles, including commuting, errands, family and community
use. GM will promote the use of the vehicles in high visibility applications
by its employees. GM will also place up to 8 EV 1s with one or more New York
State agencies.
The Department has been asked to identify the appropriate agencies, with the
express desire by GM that this be limited to one or two agencies in close
proximity. These vehicles will be for general use by the agency, although
assignment by the agency to individuals on a rotational basis (to maximize
vehicle use and driver input, exposure of individuals to the technology, and
program visibility) would be desirable.
Both GM and Government drivers of the EV 1s will be required to complete log
sheets and questionnaires for the vehicle operations, to provide feedback on
the vehicle technology. Information collected will provide real world data
regarding advanced EVs in the northeast climate and roadways.
Vehicle performance data and driver response will provide information useful
in continuing the development and advancement of zero and advanced emission
technology.
GM will place chargers at the GAPC and State Agency fleet locations to serve
the recharge needs of those vehicles. GM may place additional chargers at
strategic locations in the Rochester area, and potentially additional
chargers to extend the state fleet range. Additional chargers placed in this
manner will generate additional program credits for GM.
GM has indicated its intent to place into service a number of Neighborhood
Electric Vehicles (NEVs) at various locations in New York State. These
vehicles are being placed in restricted use areas, such as campgrounds,
parks, etc. GM has projected introduction of gasoline Partial Zero Emission
Vehicles (PZEVs) in New York during the planning period of the ACP. These
are gasoline vehicles which are certified to Super Ultra Low Emission
Vehicle tailpipe standards, meet California's Zero evaporative emissions
standards, and are provided a 150,000 mile emissions system warranty. GM has
committed to offering for sale or lease in New York any advanced technology
vehicle models that GM sell or leases in California during the term of this
ACP.
General Motors Corporation will earn Zero Emission Vehicle credits through
the conduct of this alternative compliance plan. Credits earned will be
sufficient to offset requirements for ZEV credits under the ZEV mandate
included in 6NYCRR 218-4.1. In addition, under this Alternative Compliance
Plan, GM will earn sufficient credits to carry forward into future years,
after the term of this ACP, to be used as determined by GM.
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Why not go with a wrecked Metro? My limited understanding is that a Force is
just a Geo Metro with certain electrical enhancements that allow it to work
properly.... If you buy a dead (or ugly but functional) gasser, you're
probably going to get the same tranny, and you're significantly improving
the gasoline-powered car by removing a part vital to its function. Besides,
if the part fits correctly, the gas-powered car would be a bit easier to
find (and possibly cheaper when you do find it). ...just a thought. Figured
I'd share it since they're not such common events with me. ;)
-Doug Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: Force Update, the Saga Continues..........
> Hi folks,
>
> Well after the good news on one car we all knew the other car would be
> worse. The faint noise I was hearing was the motor spinning merrily away
> without moving the car. Would you believe a shredded gearbox? Somehow,
the
> differential gears and probably more inside the custom Solectria reduction
> gearbox are broken apart and some even came out with the oil when I
drained
> it. Solectria is looking into my repair/replacement options, but I smell
> major expense here. Anyone know of a wreaked Force with parts for sale?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks, It really sounds great, but I hope it's not priced like the
"AC propulsion inc." system as I remember just for their nice 150kw
motor and controller they wanted 32k$ thats right... a new luxury car
price for just the motor/controller. We will never compete with ICE this
way.
Subject:
New Product - AC Drive System
From:
Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Fri, 21 Feb 2003 13:10:23 -0500
To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hey guys. I'm talking with a manufacturer now, because I want to resell
their AC drive systems. I'm not really doing this to sell product, but
I want to learn more about products, and I think this is a way to do
so. Would people be interested in a drive system with these specs:
Inverter
-100kw power rating
-Input from 12-400 VDC
-Peak current: 400 amps Nominal current: 300 amps
-Efficiency - 97.5%
-Liquid cooled
-Output - three-phase AC for flux vector or Volt/hz controlled induction
motors
-Features such as pot-box control, cruise control, regen braking,
vehicle reverse, and real-time diagnostics
-10lbs
Motor
-Peak power - 100kw/135HP, continuous power - 50kw/67HP
-Peak output : 300nm/220lbft, continuous output - 150nm/110lbft
-Base speed - 3000rpm
-Max speed - 6000rpm
-Efficiency - 92%
-3 in. long (4.75in long total), 11.2in diameter
-45lbs
-Water cooled
-Built-in encoders for inverter
-Sam Harper
Distortion Networks, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
678-758-4615
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
I was a bit surprised by the howls of protests from this discussion
group when the Insight and Prius were introduced with no way to
charge them and when the makers touted that as a feature.
If I had a Prius or Insight, I certainly wouldn't be complaining that
I couldn't plug it in. On these cars, the electric drive system has so
little energy storage capacity that very little gasoline could be saved
by discharging the batteries and recharging them from an electric
charger. Plugging in could be worthwhile if electricity provided
a bigger fraction of the propulsion energy.
I had an EV for 6 years and always considered charging and upkeep
of batteries a flaming nuisance. It was worthwhile to escape the
noise and pollution and upkeep of an infernal combustion engine,
but a nuisance just the same.
It's possible to have a hybrid that needs both battery charging and
trips to a gas station. No thanks, I don't need that.
Tom Shay
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--- Begin Message ---
On 21 Feb 2003 at 22:10, Doug Martin wrote:
> If you buy a dead (or ugly but functional) gasser, you're
> probably going to get the same tranny, and you're significantly improving the
> gasoline-powered car by removing a part vital to its function.
No, it's not the same. Solectria removed the Metro's original transaxle and
fitted a new, smaller, ligher one.
I know of only two sources for this transaxle: Solectria and Brusa. However,
I suspect that they buy it from another manufacturer. I wonder who that
might be ...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
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> > > We are so near to making this happen, yet
> > > so far. We could literally change the face of personal
> > > transportation. How do we get there?
> > > Chris
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >
> If I don't think about this everyday!
> I have been thinking lately that just exposing ev's to people is
> where we are right now . Most of the people I show my EV to have
> never seen one or been in one ,it that new. Before people start
> wanting them lots will have to see and ride in conversions first.
> Stage 2 is where we try to keep up with consumer demand , We are in
> stage I were we let the consumer know there is a better product,
> so How do we do that. ?
After trying to educate myself about all this electric stuff for more
than 1/2 a year (for boats actually, not cars), I went out this week
and plunked down $500 Cdn.pesos for a second-hand electric scooter, to
have the "hands on" experience. It's just a 50lb., standup thingee.
12" wheels. Two 12 volt 10ah batts running 24 volts into a 400 watt PM
brushless motor. The batts are old and tired and just SLA's, but *damn*
is this thing fun. This little scoot can't go up an incline to save
it's life, and snow and slush and cold just kill the speed and
distance, but, *damn* is this thing fun.
I'm fortunate to live in an urban environment where most of my
travel has been by electric subway and electric streetcar. Because I
can take this scoot on the subways and streetcars, I no longer have to
wait for diseasel buses on the bus routes...
But the best part of all this is, the interest that other
pedestrians are showing. Because I am out "in the open" and not
enclosed in a larger vehicle, it's easy for folks to question me at
stop lights etc. I'm averaging a demo drive a day! I let two folks
demo drive the thing today, and we're all standing around doing that EV
GRIN thing. *Damn* is this fun.
I especially like it when the younger folks say "cool"! If I were
king of this country I would invest one thousand bucks a kid in giving
every young teenager one of these things. (Yeah, I know you can go a
lot cheaper, but I mean a *quality* scoot with a good charger and BMS.)
Get `em addicted. Then when they're older, what would they wish to
drive in a larger vehicle? A gasser? I think perhaps not.
> I'll bet there are a lot of people who would like to start a local EV
> biss.
> Steve Clunn
I was very interested to read about the success of the Montreal
outfit that did a roaring business last year apparently, renting
electric scoots to the tourists... I actually live in a car-free little
community in a larger car-free (and hill-free) park. There *is* a pedal
bike rental outfit (two wheel and four wheel up to four persons), and
I'm beginning to think the Montreal experience might make it an easy
sell, to get a scoot rental business going here this summer. The parks
folks ban gas/diseasal vehicles, but they don't seem to have a problem
with little electrics. Yeeeeeeha!
Lock
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/
ps... sorry `bout all the swearing :)
pps... already planning upgrade to 36 volts <grin>
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
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Dang. Just when I think it's safe to open my mouth... here comes my foot!
Sorry about the misinformation and thanks for the correction. Good luck with
the project, and I hope it's not too difficult/pricey to get the replacement
parts!
-Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: Force Update, the Saga Continues..........
> On 21 Feb 2003 at 22:10, Doug Martin wrote:
>
> > If you buy a dead (or ugly but functional) gasser, you're
> > probably going to get the same tranny, and you're significantly
improving the
> > gasoline-powered car by removing a part vital to its function.
>
> No, it's not the same. Solectria removed the Metro's original transaxle
and
> fitted a new, smaller, ligher one.
>
> I know of only two sources for this transaxle: Solectria and Brusa.
However,
> I suspect that they buy it from another manufacturer. I wonder who that
> might be ...
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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--- Begin Message ---
The graphic can be viewed at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/evercel%20cycle%20352%20summary.gif
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Job: hybrid Engineer in Kalamazoo)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
US-MI-Kalamazoo-Sr. Product Engineer-Principal Engineer Vehicle
Systems :. Status: Full Time, Employee
Reference Code:
RUEATON/2925BR/WMON
Job Location: Kalamazoo
Description:
Eaton Corporation in Galesburg, MI has an opening for a Sr.
Product Engineer - Principal Engineer, Vehicle Systems.
Assume top-level responsibility for creating hybrid electric
powertrain systems that meet the needs of OEM and End-User
customers. This involves organizing and leading
multi-disciplinary engineering teams inside Eaton, as well
as coordinating and leading projects with external
technology partners, suppliers and customers.
Perform/support vehicle modeling and simulation activities
to predict performance, efficiency and emission results
(with validation testing where required). Utilize modeling
tools for design and performance tradeoff studies. Combine
the performance potential of engine, transmission drive
unit, energy storage and hybrid powertrain controls
components into an optimized system(s) that delivers
dramatic improvements in fuel efficiency, performance and
exhaust emissions. Work closely with OEM and end-user
customers to make sure Eaton is focused on delivering
products (and in a manner) that are highly valued throughout
the marketplace.
Provide engineering and commercial leadership to move these
products and technologies from concept to production, both
internal to Eaton and within OEM organizations. Represent
the "voice-of-the-customer" inside Eaton. If interested,
apply online at www.eatonjobs.com
indicating salary requirements/history. No phone calls or
3rd party vendors please.
Please make sure to reference the Job ID: 2925BR!WMON when
submitting your resume.
Qualifications:
Extensive engine and/or vehicle engineering background with
high aptitude for calibrating hybrid vehicle controls to
meet challenging driveability, performance, emissions and
fuel efficiency targets. Ability to travel to OEM and
partner facilities frequently. Advanced Creative Problem
Solving, strong project management, systems engineering,
design engineering, application engineering, software
development, customer support, interpersonal communications
skills. Drive for results mindset toward meeting project
goals. Familiar with basic engine and vehicle design and
control theory (as well as the practical application of
control theory to automotive products). Heavy-hybrid
vehicle experience. BS Engineering.
Salary/Benefits:
Salary commensurate with experience Eaton''s comprehensive
benefits package-medical, dental, vision, life insurance,
disability, retirement savings plans and more-offers
flexibility, choice and value. We know that, as a
significant part of Eaton''s total compensation package,
good benefit plans are important to employees and their
families. Medical ~A'^A. Dental ~A'^A.Vision , Life and AD&D
Insurance ~A'^A. Disability ~A'^A. Flexible Spending
Accounts ~A'^A. Total Retirement Resources ~A'^A. The Eaton
Personal Pension Account ~A'^A. The Eaton Savings Plan (ESP)
and Eaton Personal Investment Plan (EPIP ~A'^A. Finding the
Balance with Work/Life Programs.
. Employee Assistance Program (EAP)
. Wellness Programs and Concierge Services Adoption Benefits
. Holidays
. Leaves of Absence
. Paid Vacation
. Tuition Reimbursement
Job Location: Galesburg, MI
Job Number: 2925BR!WMON
Company URL: http://www.eatonjobs.com
Company Profile:
Eaton is a global $7.3 billion diversified industrial
manufacturer that is a leader in fluid power systems;
electrical power quality, distribution and control;
automotive engine air management and fuel economy; and
intelligent truck systems for fuel economy and safety. Eaton
has 49,000 employees and sells products in more than 50
countries.
Mission:
Producing the highest quality products at costs which make
them economically practical in the most competitively priced
markets. -- J.O. Eaton, 1911
............................................................
Contact Information : Eaton Corporation OH 44114
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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