EV Digest 2612
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: ev tax credit question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Brush advance on Honda
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) hev
by "veena sampath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) hev
by "veena sampath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: LRR Revisited
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FW: Portland Area Dynamometer...
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) What to look for in a bettery charger?
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Energy policy pics
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ev tax credit question
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Portland Area Dynamometer...
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What to look for in a bettery charger?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more! Bux Dept
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: hev
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: LRR Revisited
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New Product - AC Drive System
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: dc/dc convertor choices?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Battery Damage.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Lithium fire control WAS:Re: Inspired Corporation's Product - Part 2
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: SVR batteries 4 sale
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Reg help
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a grid-charge
able hybrid
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, poo, I've used form 8834 a couple times in the last 10 years without
problems, claimed the vehicle & conversion parts as a total, saved receipts
and photos of the vehicle in case i get audited. I did back around 91' and
showed my receipts and got back an extra $400 for solar stuff on my house I
didn't claim.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Kuehn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: ev tax credit question
> Paul G wrote:
>
> >IRS Pub 535, page 50,
> >"A vehicle is a qualified electric vehicle if it meets all the
> >following requirements.
> >1) It is a motor vehicle (defined earlier) powered primarily by an
> >electric motor drawing current from rechargeable batteries, fuel
> >cells, or other portable sources of electrical current.
> >2) You were the first person to use it.
> >3) You acquired it for your own use and not for resale.
> >4) It has never been used as a nonelectric vehicle.
> >5) It is not nonqualifying property, defined earlier."
> >
> >Of particular note are numbers 2 and 4. I was wondering - if a new
> >vehicle was purchased, not registered at the time of purchase but
> >towed home, then converted, then registered, would the $4000
> >electric vehicle credit apply?
>
> In theory, yes. In practice, this will be very hard to do. First,
> there is the simple hassle of not registering the vehicle at the time
> of purchase. But more importantly, there is the question of how it
> looks to the tax man. You will have major problems of proof on
> clause four, which gives the tax-payer the unenviable burden of
> proving a negative. If the vehicle was designed and built as a
> standard-fuel vehicle, you will have one heck of a time proving that
> you never actually ran it that way. Short of getting some written
> agreement from the dealer to remove the engine for you before you
> accepted delivery, I'm not really sure how you'd go about proving
> your non-use. While such a scheme may be technically valid, you
> might as well just write, "Please audit me" on your tax return.
>
> -Adam Kuehn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> I believe in normal (non-honda) conversions, the motor will turn CCW as
> viewed from the transmission end of the motor. Hope this helps
Reminds me of something that made me smile.
Our Sunrace car was hastily brought up to a state where it could move
under its own power, in time to be shown off at the car club Skite Nite.
(Skite=Brag for those of you don't speak DownUnder)
The last bits were done while I was away on holiday, and I had drawn up
a wiring diagram so the guys would know what to hook up to where.
I got back just in time for the Skite Nite, to be told "we had a serious
problem with your wiring diagram. <serious face> It ran backwards."
Of course his tongue was firmly in cheek, because the little PM motor
doesn't have any markings on the terminals. What's the name of that
law that says if there's a 50/50 chance of getting it the right way round
you'll get it wrong 90% of the time?
Anyway, it was a buzz to see it moving, completely silently under its own
power, even if the frame was still just tacked together.
(What a pity I won't ever be able to drive it.)
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi ppl
i am making a hybrid electric car.i have a 8hp continuous 48V PMDC motor
that has a peak current rating of 330amps. we are going to use it for
traction for a car that will end up weighing about 950kgs.
i have attatched the performance curve of the motor. my controller cannot
take anything more than even 250 amps.what my doubt is wether a differential
reduction of about 3.23 and a further reduction of 3.875 would be enough to
start the vehicle from rest and go may be a max 10kmph. we are thinking
about having gear shifting by retaining the gearbox present in the vehicle
that we are retrofitting. we cant afford to run the risk of burning the
controller.
simulation on ADVISOR shows that we need another 2.3 reduction in addition
to 3.23*3.875. then we can reach a top speed of 45kmph using higher gears.
the gear ratios of the present gearbox are:
first: 3.875
second: 2.04
third: 1.33
top: direct drive
could someone advise?
veena
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "veena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "veena" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: hev
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:38:23 +0530
hi ppl
i am making a hybrid electric car.i have a 8hp continuous 48V PMDC motor
that has a peak current rating of 330amps. we are going to use it for
traction for a car that will end up weighing about 950kgs.
i have attatched the performance curve of the motor. my controller cannot
take anything more than even 250 amps.what my doubt is wether a
differential
reduction of about 3.23 and a further reduction of 3.875 would be enough to
start the vehicle from rest and go may be a max 10kmph. we are thinking
about having gear shifting by retaining the gearbox present in the vehicle
that we are retrofitting. we cant afford to run the risk of burning the
controller.
simulation on ADVISOR shows that we need another 2.3 reduction in addition
to 3.23*3.875. then we can reach a top speed of 45kmph using higher gears.
the gear ratios of the present gearbox are:
first: 3.875
second: 2.04
third: 1.33
top: direct drive
could someone advise?
_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just blow up my regular bimbo tires on my marshmellow car-pod to 45psi.
They are of course rated to 35psi at120mph but on an overweight ev higher
psi is ok and that's what matters, the tire pressure is what makes it LRR
and how much pressure it can tolerate.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 1:29 AM
Subject: RE: LRR Revisited
> Quick question:
>
> How much difference does the type of type make?
> Anyone have any pointers to any research on the topic?
>
> Mark
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wilmer Hechanova [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, 21 February 2003 2:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: LRR Revisited
>
>
>
> I'm needing to replace the tires of my '96 Tacoma EV and have done as much
research as I can. Tire reps seem to know little to nothing when you say
"Low Rolling Resistance." A tiny little bell rings when you say "Fuel
Effiecient Tire." LRR tires that have been used in EVs seem to have very
low ratings in surveys among IC drivers in regard to traction, ride and
noise categories. Fuel efficiency never seems to be rated in surveys.
>
> Invictas are no longer available. Energy MXV4s have mixed reviews.
Potenza is a possibility but have no reviews that I've found. Integrity
reviews have IC drivers swearing never to buy them again. The Nokian rep
says the Hekkapeliita Q is their lowest LRR tire they make but their website
seems to point to the NRT2 as being "fuel efficient."
>
> So . . . I give up. What available tire line is in the most use in EVs
now? What's the best compromise?
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Do you have a metricmind truck? If so, could you forward me info on
its range, speed, and especialy, the cost, including the batteries but
excluding the donor. Sorry, like I've posted on a previous e-mail I don't
currently have internet access, just e-mail, so I can't look up hyperlinks.
I'll definitely use a truck for my conversion and I'm considering going with
an AC drive. Thanks for the info.
john david
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Portland Area Dynamometer...
A while back when I posted my dynomometer plots for the
Metricmind/Seimens AC drive Ranger a number of Portland EVers asked
where they could find the same equipment. I didn't have any suggestions
then, but these folks are highly regarded on an import racing list I
lurk on:
http://www.matrixengineering.cc/dyno/rates.php
I love to see the plots for the Zombie, or Victor's CRX... maybe OEVA
would like to do a group night...
Mark Farver
--
"The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."
-- Justice Louis O. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, I know that Rich's PCFxx chargers are the ideal :-) and any day
now I will be asking EV Parts to get me a quote for shipping one to my
side of the planet.
I also have heard from Steve Downing about Switchtec chargers.
Aside from that, I need to look for some local options for battery
chargers for the Sunrace vehicle. I already know some things:
* Mains input is 240v 10A or maybe 15A if we're lucky.
* We will need to put a total of 6-8 kWh into the three packs at the
maximum rate we can get out of the mains (up to 3.6 kVA)
* Nominal output volts ranging from 24v (existing test pack) to 60v (likely
maximum pack size for this car).
* We want the charging to be self-managing as far as reasonably
possible
So my question is, what am I looking for in terms of control features?
adjustable current limit, and auto shut-off at a preset voltage I guess.
Do we need any other features to help with equalising and stuff?
Batteries will most likely be AGM if that matters.
--
Lesley Walker, Wellington, New Zealand
LRW at clear.net.nz
"Do you like cat?"
"Yes, I quite like cats."
"Leg or breast?"
Neverwhere, by Neil Gaiman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee ,
So,.... The pack is not charged any higher than 75% after a drive and
a chance for the car to recharge the pack ?
If you charged the 6.5ah pack to 100%soc before you start out would you improve
the gas mileage ??
> .....
> It would do a lot better than that! It can go 5-10 miles on its
> present
> 6.5ah pack, except that the electronics fights to keep you from going
> any deeper than 50% SOC or any higher than 75% SOC.
> --
Robert Salem
81 VW pickup 240volt,dcp1200,kostov
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Evercell has reached cycle 352 tonight
>
> > Seth wrote:
> > >
> > > I realize this wasn't a healthy battery to begin with, but the trend
> > > doesn't lend itself to believe that NiZn will have a much greater life
> > > than lead-acid.
> > >
> > > Seth
> > >
> > > Joe Smalley wrote:
> > > >
> >
> > Until you realize that these are %100 DOD cycles, and Optimas are only
> > rated at 270 cycles to %80 DOD.
> > It certainly looks like we will get close to 500 cycles at %50 reduction
> > in capacity. This is pretty close to what they advertised.
> > Very little BS.
> > Most folks with AGMs had failures at 100-150 cycles. Those with real
> > chargers got 250+ Those with voltage controled Chargers and Regs are
> > still getting more.
> > Still 1/2 the weight
> > 2x the cycle life
> > No thermal degradation down to 0 F.
> >
> > These are what sells this battery. If we could get the price down from
> > 400 bucks to 250 to 300, this chemistry would burry Lead acid.
> > It might anyways if they ever get here in volume.
> >
>
> Hi All;
>
> We did have a test pilot, with Jon Sheer Pullin, with a Accord? Rich,
> howz he doin? I'm afraid that he doesn't use the car to get any meaningful
> tests? Sure like to see Lead batteries burried! For sure! Didn't Sheer get
> over 100 miles, on a charge, at hiway speeds? Question, is: Can he still, a
> few years later. Real quiet here, on the Accords life process.
> > --
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > www.manzanitamicro.com
> > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> >
Sheer is out of country until March 1 or so.
As I recall the Ac Accord is at Dave Clouds for some mechanical issues.
But Dave is shy to run it since 3 of the Evercells self discharged to
empty.
Dave is NOT going to be the one who fry the Evercells.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
all right then:
thumbnails:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/lst
individual photos:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/vwp?.dir=/&.src=gr&.dnm=badcvn71.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/vwp?.dir=/&.src=gr&.dnm=stennfly.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/energyproductionpolicy/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=gr%26.view=t
I created the group you see in order to have a place to discuss
general energy policy issues, particularly when discussions in such
places as EV-areas swayed from the topic, as can often happen. I am
not trying to advocate joining or anything like that. I'm pretty sure
I succeeded in turning off the thing that you have to be a member to
view the pics.
MM
On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 14:14:41 -0500, you wrote:
>Listers,
> I have some great military pics that I think nearly everyone on the
>list will agree with and like wholeheartedly. I don't have a web site to
>post them on but send me a blank e-mail and I'll paste the pics on them for
>you. If anyone likes them enough they can feel free to post them on any web
>site they might have. If you want to go that route I'll try to e-mail a .bmp
>image but they are kind of big in that form and I'm somewhat limited on how
>big the files are that I can send.
>
>John David
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From : Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : EV
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject : Re: ev tax credit question Date :
22 Feb 2003 22:33:47 -0700
<snip>
I disagree, if you buy the car new and NEVER register it as anything
other than electric. Then it was clearly never used as a nonelectric. The
key here is the word "used", it doesn't say it has to initially be
built as an electric.
If you're buying a new glider, you may be able to get the dealer to buy the
engine (and perhaps even the fuel tank, exhaust system, alternator, etc.)
from you before you take delivery of the car. Have them subtract the value
of the ICE parts (minus the cost of removing them) from the sale price of
the car. Make sure the mileage is noted (zero), and that the car is listed
as "glider without engine." (You may want to buy from a fleet dealer, as
they are probably more open to such a contract.)
Tim
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
cycle 352 tonight
> >
> > > Seth wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I realize this wasn't a healthy battery to begin with, but the trend
> > > > doesn't lend itself to believe that NiZn will have a much greater
life
> > > > than lead-acid.
> > > >
> > > > Seth
> > > >
> > > > Joe Smalley wrote:
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Until you realize that these are %100 DOD cycles, and Optimas are only
> > > rated at 270 cycles to %80 DOD.
> > > It certainly looks like we will get close to 500 cycles at %50
reduction
> > > in capacity. This is pretty close to what they advertised.
> > > Very little BS.
> > > Most folks with AGMs had failures at 100-150 cycles. Those with real
> > > chargers got 250+ Those with voltage controled Chargers and Regs are
> > > still getting more.
> > > Still 1/2 the weight
> > > 2x the cycle life
> > > No thermal degradation down to 0 F.
> > >
> > > These are what sells this battery. If we could get the price down from
> > > 400 bucks to 250 to 300, this chemistry would burry Lead acid.
> > > It might anyways if they ever get here in volume.
> > >
> >
> > Hi All;
> >
> > We did have a test pilot, with Jon Sheer Pullin, with a Accord?
Rich,
> > howz he doin? I'm afraid that he doesn't use the car to get any
meaningful
> > tests? Sure like to see Lead batteries burried! For sure! Didn't Sheer
get
> > over 100 miles, on a charge, at hiway speeds? Question, is: Can he
still, a
> > few years later. Real quiet here, on the Accords life process.
> > > --
> > > Rich Rudman
> > > Manzanita Micro
> > > www.manzanitamicro.com
> > > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> > >
> Sheer is out of country until March 1 or so.
> As I recall the Ac Accord is at Dave Clouds for some mechanical issues.
> But Dave is shy to run it since 3 of the Evercells self discharged to
> empty.
> Dave is NOT going to be the one who fry the Evercells.
>
Hi Rich;
Thanks for the update. I guess Sheer will drive it when he gets back??
Do Evercells just die of lack of interest?Are those in the Honda junk, or
will they reserrect, if fed juice? Sounds like the Evercell isn't the
answer, but I have/ had big hopes. The one yur testing to death: Is it
putting out more juice tham a lead acid one of the same size, weight? Would
sure be nice idf a carload of EVercells was lighter, so they wouldn't hafta
work so hard to run the car.
Hope to burry the Lead Acids, in MY lifetime!
Bob
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> if it has a PM rotor, there is negligible heat generation in the
> >> rotor.
>
> Rich Rudman replied:
> > NOT so, there is LOTS of eddy current losses in the back iron on the
> > rotor.
>
> Maybe you wrote too fast, Rich. I said the _rotor_ losses were
> negligible in a AC PM (synchronous) motor. The stator windings and iron
> certainly do get hot.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
NO, LEE I MEANT the ROTOR!!!
In my BLDC drive projects we melted stuff because of the unintened heat
in the ROTOR. I spent a few hour bobbing around Lake Meade a few years
ago becuase the Glue holding on the magnets melted!. There is
significant heat dissapated in the iron behind the magnets. You have to
engineer to it or pay the price. Maybe all the BLDC motor designers on
this list should note that this can be a problem, since I have paid the
price, no one else should have to.
Clearly the folks who desined this motor didn't know about it. It was a
fatal flaw for the intened application.
Good glue and forced airflow across the rotor solved this issue. Cooling
the copper and the Stator can be done with a Water cooled case. Still
getting the heat out of the windings is a 3 to 4 step thermal resistance
problem. This is why the Minibike drive never had a cover.
When asking 10 to 15 lbs of iron copper and aluminum and a abit of Neo
magnets to survive 25Kw of power, things get hot. 100Kw into a 3 by 11
inch disk of Alum and iron and
copper will have the same abuse levels. Maybe more.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
>
> A while back when I posted my dynomometer plots for the
> Metricmind/Seimens AC drive Ranger a number of Portland EVers asked
> where they could find the same equipment. I didn't have any suggestions
> then, but these folks are highly regarded on an import racing list I
> lurk on:
>
> http://www.matrixengineering.cc/dyno/rates.php
>
> I love to see the plots for the Zombie, or Victor's CRX... maybe OEVA
> would like to do a group night...
>
> Mark Farver
>
> --
> "The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of
> zeal, well-meaning but without understanding."
> -- Justice Louis O. Brandeis, Olmstead vs. United States
IF this happens, I will come done and join the fun!!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So,.... The pack is not charged any higher than 75% after a drive
> and a chance for the car to recharge the pack?
Yes. The Prius stops charging its battery when it reaches 75% SOC. The
only way it will charge any more is if you go down a l-o-n-g hill using
regen all the way.
Likewise, it quits using the battery when it falls to 50% SOC. The only
way to discharge it further is by driving in reverse or running out of
gas, circumstances where it can't run the ICE to recharge the battery.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lesley Walker wrote:
> I need to look for some local options for battery chargers for the
> Sunrace vehicle.
> * Mains input is 240v 10A or maybe 15A if we're lucky.
> * We will need to put a total of 6-8 kWh into the three packs at
> the maximum rate we can get out of the mains (up to 3.6 kVA)
> * Nominal output volts ranging from 24v (existing test pack) to
> 60v (likely maximum pack size for this car).
> * We want the charging to be self-managing as far as reasonably
> possible
>
For a simple "local option" high power charger, you might want to
consider a motor-generator set. Get a ~2 HP induction motor, and couple
it to a ~24vdc truck alternator. If you happen to be charging 24v AGMs,
the built-in 24v regulator will be all the control you need. It's not
particularly elegant or efficient, but it is cheap and easy!
A step up would be a simple transformer-rectifier charger. If the
transformer has taps, or you add a variac, you can adjust the output
voltage and current to your heart's content.
In either case, the output is isolated. You can add passive power factor
correction with some AC capacitors to maximize the power you can get
from a given outlet.
> So my question is, what am I looking for in terms of control
> features? adjustable current limit, and auto shut-off at a preset
> voltage I guess. Do we need any other features to help with
> equalising and stuff?
>
> Batteries will most likely be AGM if that matters.
If you expect to do "fast charging", then you either need an expensive
charger with a sophisticated control algorithm and close individual
battery monitoring, or you will have to manually control it and "watch
it like a hawk". One screw-up, and your batteries fry!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From : "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To : <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject : Re: EV1s waiting,rant, an' stuff; more! Bux Dept Date : Sun,
23 Feb 2003 23:29:09 -0500
<snip>
Wow! cars with " Body by Pullman" ? sorry I couldn't resist Or
TALGO car builders, or Pacific car? Kawasaki, just a few I could think of
off the top of my head? What a nice idea, for them, waiting for a 1000k
Subway car order to comre in from the NYCTA.
Hmm... I was thinking maybe Bombardier. Between railroad passenger cars
(used on Metrolink and ACE, among others), Sea-Doo watercraft, Ski-Doo
snowmobiles and Learjets, I figured they'd be diversified enough to put a
Tango on the road. (I believe they're doing a deal with ZAP to brand an
electric underwater diving device with the Sea-Doo name--might be doing the
manufacturing as well.)
Tim
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On 24 Feb 2003 at 17:44, veena sampath wrote:
> 8hp continuous 48V PMDC motor
> that has a peak current rating of 330amps. we are going to use it for
> traction for a car that will end up weighing about 950kgs.
> i have attatched the performance curve of the motor.
That's a fair bit of weight for such a small motor, but not impossible if
your performance goals are modest.
Here are a couple of benchmarks which I hope will help with your design of
the car.
Early 1980s Comuta-cars weighed less than 700kg and used a 6hp GE series
motor. They made a top speed of perhaps 60 km/h, and had a single speed
transaxle with about a 5.13:1 ratio, IIRC. They had contactor controllers
that could deliver an instantaneous peak of at least 900 amps at 48 volts.
The motor brush pigtails tended to burn up when the car was climbing
extended hills. I fitted mine with a 300 amp PMC controller and found I
could barely climb ^any^ hill without a running start.
A fairly typical US conversion from 25+ years ago would use a Wiley or PMC
bipolar transistor controller capable of delivering 300 amps or so at 72
volts, and a aircraft generator or Baldor shunt motor. This was often in a
VW beetle, Chevrolet Chevette, or other "light" car. All up weight would be
at least 1000-1100kg. These cars usually would hit about 80 km/h, though it
took a while to get there.
I would recommend that you retain the gearbox in your car.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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On 24 Feb 2003 at 8:24, Mark Hanson wrote:
> the tire pressure is what makes it LRR and how much
> pressure it can tolerate. -
That's a significant part of it, but rubber compounding and belt design
(sidewall flex) are also important. A true LRR tire will always beat a
conventional tire at the same inflation pressure for this reason.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> if it has a PM rotor, there is negligible heat generation in the
>> rotor.
Rich Rudman replied:
> NOT so, there is LOTS of eddy current losses in the back iron on the
> rotor...
> In my BLDC drive projects we melted stuff because of the unintened heat
> in the ROTOR.
>
> Clearly the folks who desinged this motor didn't know about it.
> It was a fatal flaw for the intended application.
Well, let me restate. There is SUPPOSED TO BE little or no changing flux
in the magnets or back iron. Remember that the magnets and back iron are
not laminated; they are just solid lumps of metal. If there is an AC
flux, they look like a shorted turn, and get hot.
Any motor designer should know this, and design the motor (and drive
electronics) so the flux in the magnet is DC.
I have also seen cases where naive motor designers assumed perfect
waveforms in the windings, and then naive controller designers assumed
they could apply square waves. Motor works great; controller works
great; but together, they burn up!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Another alternative is to use two or more smaller converters. One or two
for the bright lights one for the running lights. You could use a step down
possible home made unit and I have sources for low watt max 63v dc/dc. These
are all under 5 bucks each. You could step up later to a single converter.
Just a thought. Works fine on the Golfcart. No radio no fan. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: dc/dc convertor choices?
>
> Sevcon makes a wide variety of DC-DC converters.
>
> Contact Roderick at evparts.com, he should be able to hook you up with one
> for your requirements.
>
> Damon may still have a few available.
>
>
>
> -Jim Coate wrote:
>
> >I had a depressing thought today... with Damon/DCP is putting on-road EV
> >stuff on hold for a while, what choices are left for high(er) voltage
> >dc/dc convertors? There is a rather large gap between 120v Curtis units
> >(if those are even still made) and 336 volts which is the ticket into AC
> >systems with the built-in dc/dc.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
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So the worst is if you reset is you wind up with a full pack and the radio
and emeter are reset. I could live with that. I've seen a lot of damaged
Priuses out here in CA. Just a matter of time before I spot one with a
blown engine. Lawrence Rhodes...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: You Don't Have to Plug It In!
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Seems to me you could put in a relay to reset just the system and not
> > things like the radio and other saved data whatever that might be.
>
> Unfortunately, Toyota has merged and twisted together all the computers.
> They all talk to each other, and check up on each other. It's been
> proving hard to outsmart them. There is a group of people working to
> crack the network codes between the various systems, but they haven't
> done so yet.
>
> > Seems like the Prius as a pure electric would go a good 25 miles if
> > you took out the engine and gastank and put batteries there.
>
> It would do a lot better than that! It can go 5-10 miles on its present
> 6.5ah pack, except that the electronics fights to keep you from going
> any deeper than 50% SOC or any higher than 75% SOC.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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The one Delphi that had a resistor melt into it is now down to 9.29 from
9.49 under charge. There is some pack sag but the resting voltage is the
same as the other batteries charged and discharged. It's causing me to
charge at below maximum voltage. If I charge at the proper voltage it
causes the regs loads to get really hot. Damage: You can see in this
picture the damage from the reg load that melted into its plastic mounting.
You can see two black spots in the damaged area. Lead plates. I am
probably losing fluid. You can also see a nearby reg and load. URL of
Damage: http://home.jps.net/~bassoon/MVC-002S.JPG
I would like to replace this battey. I have a nice charged battery to put
in its place. I will try to fix it. I wonder if I can put some distilled
water in to compensate? Then a little epoxy putty. Lawrence Rhodes....
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Bill Dube, I think I will watch you install these Lithium batts. on your drag
bike and hear of a great sucess before I will put them on the Current
Eliminator. Dennis Kilowatt Berube
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I have 100 svr14 batteries and 50 svr30 batteries 4 sale.They are brand new
and have never been hooked up but have been on float for13months.svr14s
$25ea. svr30s $35 Dennis Kilowatt Berube 6023777583
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Well I finally busted three more regs today. One I know how it was a Mark I
and it got 70 volts just as the positive lead brushed against a load from
another reg. Its green light just stays on all the time now. Could that be
a diode? Anyhow now I can't charge now. At least not all the way. I'll
have to babysit it. Took off a reg from a low voltage battery. One mark one
mystery one Mark II with the undervolt on all the time. Still need one
more. Help. Lawrence Rhodes......
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I am not sure most commercial generators are what you want as a generator
for a series hybrid in any event. I suspect a big alternator that puts out
DC (or pulsed DC) would be better. You would regulate the voltage by
adjusting the field strength on the generator or engine RPM or whatever. No
need to take it off via AC and covnert it back. All you really want is a DC
buss with about the voltage your battery pack and/or controller requires.
Charging is done by feedback to the generator and not via expensive silicon.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: William Korthof [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: February 23, 2003 14:49
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [RAV4-EV] question about turning a RAV4 EV into a
grid-chargeable hybrid
The after-market series-hybrid modification is pretty far
from viable at this time, if ever.
All you need to do is look into commercially available
gen-set combinations. To get one that reliably puts out
a solid 10 kW would weigh you down many hundreds
of pounds and tons of space. To get an idea of such a
beast, figure that it's considerably louder and larger than
the (outdoor) compressor of a large central A/C unit.
(So that's kind of a no-go for the cargo area!).
Many people have worked on this problem, and there
aren't many encouraging results. AC Propulsion trailers
are one of the best, but they are costly and weigh over
400 lbs, despite using a light weight motorcycle engine
and custom AC generator. And they're rather loud.
The UC Davis hybrids utilize conventional [small] car
engines, which are actually heavier and larger, but not
as loud. Other than that, RV generators are loud,
smelly, and are to puny to support even 5kW load for
long enough to make sense. Your typical Home Depot
special would probably fall apart within a few hours at
5-10 kW, and you'd need the biggest model to just to
get that.
At 12:04 PM 2/23/03 -0800, murdoch wrote:
>Since the RAV4 EV can be owned and not just leased, (unlike the EV1,
>Honda EV+, Think EV at present, etc.), and since it seems to be a
>pretty good EV in many respects, I am wondering if anyone has given
>any thought to using a RAV4 EV in a project to equip it with some
>hybrid aspect.
>
>Specifically, instead of trying to get too complicated, I was
>wondering about loading a small diesel generator into the back of the
>vehicle itself and using it to charge the batteries, while the vehicle
>is in motion and being powered by the batteries. This might give the
>vehicle some extended range without sacrificing too much performance
>due to weight problems. Since it's already a four-seat small SUV,
>perhaps there would be room for this.
>
>Yes, I know, many EV fans would consider this the ruination of a
>perfectly good EV, but grid-chargeable hybrids are something I at
>least want to see researched, and they may turn out to have their good
>qualities, such as (if well-done) superior mileage and range, both.
>If the generator were powered by just a few gallons of 100% biodiesel,
>and if the mileage were awesome, I think such a car could be
>incredible.
>
>Of course, I do not mean to imply disrespect for the costs or
>challenges or pitfalls of such a project, just putting the idea out
>there to mull over. One key I think would be finding a suitable
>generator in terms of weight and power. Another would be determining
>whether a battery management system and other electronics could manage
>the problem of charging and discharging both at the same time. Even
>if this is generally possible in some other vehicles, since the RAV4
>might not have been designed for it, and since the batteries are of
>considerable value, I'd wonder about that.
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Harsha Godavari wrote:
> What I would like to see from the talent on the
> list is to design a universal model (for a 4door sedan small
> to medium size)with off the shelf parts taht any bozo (such
> as I)can slap together. One motor,one controller one charger
> and a standard set of batteries. The car should be drivable
> for x number of miles on any terrain /weather on this continent.
>
> We may not find somone willing to put up even 1 million let
> alone 15 for a factory. The design can be based on either a
> popular kit or a popular ICE. If the sturday afternoon
> mechanics can put it together, you have a winner.
>
> Its doable if the knowledgeable folks decide on it. You
> recall IBM publishing the specs for the PC and unintetionally
> caused a revolution. or look at Linux or FreeBSD. We can do
> the same. What do you think ?
Hi Harsha,
I've given a fair amount of thought to an idea similar to what you
describe. Based on a mid-90's Golf (because parts are so easily
available), you would use as much as possible from the donor car. This
helps control cost, and saves a huge amount of time in scrounging parts.
You would put these parts in a purpose-designed tube frame with a
fiberglass body in a microvan layout. It would use 144+ V of flooded
batteries, with a total weight something over 3000 lbs. (which allows
you to use the original suspension without modification). Decent
performance, 60-80 miles per charge, maybe more.
I was thinking in terms of having a company make these, selling kits to
individuals or franchisees who would be the actual "manufacturer" of the
car. A back-of-the-envelope calculation told me a turn-key car would
probably cost the buyer in the mid to high $20k range. That's a bit
steep for a car that would have only adequate performance and would
require gaining the knowledge to cope with its differences from an ICE.
Only dedicated individuals would buy. How many Forces were sold at
retail to individuals?
If we shift this toward your idea of designing it so any bozo can build
it from scratch, you put some additional limitations on the design. It
would need a very basic shape that lends itself to simple raw materials.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, in fact you might be able to give it
a funky-yet-hip post-industrial look that could win it a cult following!
I think it's doable, and I'd love to be the one to do it. The problem
for me (and just about everyone else) is that I can't put that kind of
effort into a product that is essentially open-source. Just building
the first one from scratch and working out the worst bugs would be a
huge investment in time, with little chance of return. And then the
buyers would be limited to those who would attempt to build their own
car.
I think the only way to make this viable is for someone to make real
money from it. Linux is probably the best success story for open-source
products, but how many average people have been able to show Mr. Gates
the door (of the millions who'd love to)? At the very least you would
need someone to do a big chunk of the work for free.
Chris
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