EV Digest 2678
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) TdS Report #1: Here Comes the 2003 Tour de Sol
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Ethanol battery?
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Escort EV limbo?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Escort EV limbo?
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: That time of the year again...
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV Digest Mode
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New and improved bumper sticker design
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Evercel Capacity
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Evercel Capacity
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Hot Nickel
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Vodka Fuel Cell?! Ethanol battery?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Vodka Fuel Cell?! Ethanol battery?
by "amadare" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
by Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) ZAP highway EV
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) ZAP RAP BO
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) (no subject)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AC controllers
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #1: Here Comes the 2003 Tour de Sol
Every spring since 1989 there has been a gathering of alternative
transportation enthusiasts, known as the Tour de Sol. This year is the 15th
and once again the clan will bring together many variations on the theme of
energy efficient and Earth-friendly transportation. The field will include
"for sale" products as well as the one-of-a-kind vehicles that reflect the
variety and originality of thinking that is the signature of the Tour de Sol.
Central to the Festival will be the Road Rally for which the Tour de Sol is
famous. In the past, the Tour has featured solar-electric and battery-electric
scooters, motorcycles, cars, vans, trucks and buses, research hybrid-electric
vehicles of many stripes, using many different fuels and technologies,
including the first fuel-cells every used in open-road competition. Everything
from personal designs, through vehicles built at schools and colleges, through
current commercial offerings, and futuristic dreams still taking form will be
on display and in competition. This year attracts teams from as far away as
Washington state, Canada, Oklahoma, Minnasota, Florida and Maine. Some entries
are old favorites with the habit of improving year-to-year. Others are first-
timers bringing new ideas and fresh interpretations on the idea of energy
efficient vehicles. The contestants will run between the festival sites and
then be on public display. The teams always have interesting stories to tell,
and children particularly enjoy talking to the school entries. Not a few kids
got their first look at an electric car at the Tour de Sol and then went on to
produce entrants while in high school or college.
I first attended the Tour de Sol in 1993, and wrote the first of these Reports
in 1994. In 1995 I purchased my electric car, a Solectria "Force" (156 Volts,
AC drive) which has been my primary transportation since then. I will once
again be there capturing the stories behind the teams and vehicles. I'll also
be serving as announcer during the Road Rallies.
The entire set of Tour de Sol Reports will be available at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
So come along for the ride! The previous Tour de Sols tell me that there will
be lots to see and do!
Mike Bianchi
Based on
http://www.TourdeSol.org
2003 Tour de Sol: The Great American Green Transportation Festival
May 10 - 14, 2003
The Tour De Sol: The Great American Green Transportation Festival is a unique,
award-winning, year-round public education campaign that culminates in May in a
series of festivals and a road-rally competition in the Northeast.
Come visit one of the Festivals. See state-of-the-art hybrid and fuel cell
cars, buses, bikes, neighborhood vehicles, green electricity choices, renewable
energy displays, and other displays of Earth-friendly products. Test-drive new
clean cars that are on the market today. Learn first-hand about products and
services that can save you money while improving our national security, the
economy, public health, and the environment by reducing oil use, pollution, and
greenhouse gas emissions.
For those interested in learning more about entering the competition,
exhibiting, sponsoring, volunteering, or bringing your students on a field trip
go to "How to get Involved".
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/involved
Check out previous Tours de Sol for photos and much more.
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/previous/
Started in 1989, the Tour de Sol has grown to be the largest sustainable
transportation event in the world. Mark your calendar today!
May 10: Burlington County NJ. Location to be announced
May 11: no public events; vehicles in range competition
May 12: Trenton, NJ
May 13: Philadelphia, PA
May 14: Washington, DC
http://www.TourdeSol.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
50 Miles Street
Greenfield, MA 01301
413-774-6051
Copyright (c) 2001 by NESEA. All rights reserved.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Jack Groh
Tour de Sol Communications Director
P.O. Box 6044
Warwick, RI 02887-6044
401 732-1551
401 732-0547 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It does say the enzymes are sensitive to temperature, but still an
interesting possibility:
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993539
An enzyme-catalysed battery has been created that could one day run
cell phones and laptop computers on shots of vodka.
Enzyme-based batteries have the potential to be cheaper than
fuel cells that rely on expensive platinum or ruthenium catalysts.
"Enzymes are inexpensive and catalytically very active."
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, Joe;
I don't think that is what they are talking about, what you have there is
just your basic monster truck. What they are talking about is a monster car,
a knid of frankenstein looking beast.
I have one down the road from me, I'll try to get a pic posted.
That link will be the last post from me on this WOT.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:22 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Better range from less weight
>
>
> Some advertisements for vehicles like you seem to be discussing:
>
> http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/2/0/40164820.htm
> http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/6/0/39890460.htm
> http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/2/4/42853424.htm
> http://adcache.atvtraderonline.com/16/4/0/43287040.htm
>
> These are not body transplants. I don't know what they are
> called. The key
> word seems to be 'monster'.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 9:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Better range from less weight
>
>
> > At 11:23 AM 3/24/2003 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
> > >There's bound to be a name for them, but I don't know what
> it is. This
> > >is a small town, and there are at least 2-3 of them
> around. Anyone else
> > >know?
> >
> > Not a clue, the ones I've usually seen were Camaro bodies
> on a 4x4 truck
> > chassis.
> > REALLY stupid looking.
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Harsha wrote:
>David:
> May I present some thoughts on this...?
By all means. That's why I ask:-)
>Buyer: Would this be a person who already owns/built one
> or more EVs? If so what is he looking for that he
> does not have or cannot build?
I was kind of aiming at a first or second time owner, or a commuter that
does not demand V8 performance. (This EV has only moderate acelleration.)
There is nothing unusual that they could not do themselves, but rather the
advantage is that they would not *have* to do it themselves. Some people
who would consider buying a product like this with the work already done
simply do not want to put a lot of work into it, and some are not able to
for a variety of circumstances. For them, a used EV makes a lot of sense.
> If it is a first time buyer, he would be concerned
> about the range, source of repair facilities,
> parts availabilty in spite of all the psyching up
> of all the pros of an EV. Who is going to test the
> EV (unlike an ICE that one can take to the nearest
> garage) and give him an evaluation? Ofcourse we
> assume that the owner is scrupulously honest, yet
> one oversight is all that it takes to frustrate
> a newbie.
Agreed. I am pretty verbose when someone asks me for a description,
because I want to be sure I cover everything.
>Please don't think I am being nasty. I am a lurker here
>and I didnot see these points considered. Untill EV's
>become more common these will plague the recycling of
>EVs. It is not easy to ship them across the border to
>Canada since the canuck dollar is worth roughly 0.50USD
>and our winters are much harsher & longer :-(
No problem. I usually just lurk, too. Yes I haven't heard of too many
Canadian EV's, though I know they are out there.
>Price: If the buyer is from out of state, there is the
> problem of transporting the EV. I seem to have
> read (on this list) that depending on the
> distance, it can add 800.00 USD or more! The
> chances of a local buyer are slim considering
> how few enthusiasts are there.
Yes, that is a difficulty. The only potential local buyer I know of was
trying to sell his a year ago. It cost $900 to get mine here from Oregon.
The transport services are readily available, however.
Thanks for the advice.
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SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > What's wrong with my math ?
> > NiZn does better in cold weather than Lead-Acid, but what about normal 70
> > F weather ? Isn't NiZn only about twice the energy density as
> > Lead-Acid
> > (30 whrs/pound verse 15 whrs/pound) in 70 F weather ?
>
> Here's what's wrong with your math...it's called Peukart's Curve. On paper, not
> taking
> this effect into consideration, NiZN has roughly double the energy density as lead
> acid.
> So...'on paper', if you take an Optima at 65 ahrs and really baby it and only pull a
> wimpy
> 3.25 amps form it for 20 hours, yes, you will get all of its ahr rating...do the same
> thing to a NiZN battery, say a 40 lb. 87 ahr model, and you will also get its rated
> ahrs.
> As is often the case though, in the real world, away from bench racing and spec
> sheets,
> things are way different. That same 65 ahr lead acid battery, when beefy EV type
> currents
> are pulled, thanks to Peukart's Curve, falls to just 25 ahrs., but the 87 ahr NiZN
> battery, which is largely immune to such an effect, can give nearly the same 87 ahrs,
> even at EV currents.
>
> When battery 'chemistry' is merely compared, no regard is given to the application,
> and so
> lead acid looks better than it really is. If a lead acid battery is rated at a 20
> hour
> rate (useless when talking EVs), and if it is tested and discharged at that rate, it
> will
> in fact, deliver its rated whrs/pound. This same battery, however, will 'not'
> deliver that
> same whrs/pound at the one hour rate...not even close.....a NiZN battery will.
>
> At the one-two hour rate, a NiZN battery is about three times the energy density as a
> comparably sized lead acid battery....if both batteries are cold, say at 32 degrees,
> the
> NiZN jumps way ahead of lead acid, at nearly six times the deliverable EV current
> ahrs!
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
Wow John You have it clearly now.
You still didn't get the cycle life numbers. 500 100% DOD cycles. and
that's just a degrade down to %80 of rated capacity. If we run 'em until
useless, Say %50 or until they don't give the range a Yt will new, say
30 amphours.... then we will get a "couple of thousand" cycles. The the
unknown of short cycles, that are not a full capacity pull, and we have
years of use .
Oh I hear the MB100s have a max amp rating of 400 amps , not a paltry
250 like the older M100. This is getting close to what flooded PbLAs can
do.
John, I may have a set to work on here in Seattle as early as Next week.
They Are here in the states, and are going to a charger customer of
mine. Expect lots of Photos and REAL data collected by Joe and I and
Sheer, with a set of MK3... and well REAL life testing will begin.
My guess is that the M100s will give Goldie 5x the range , and the
MB100s will be more like the 6x, By the way X for me is 10 miles.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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EVs tend to be worth a bit more in California than they are
elsewhere. Gas prices on my daily commute are currently ranging from
US$2.18 - US$2.30 for Regular Unleaded, up to US$2.49 for the supreme
flavors.
We have a high number of environmentalists per capita.
My point? Your price of US$6K is too low if you are considering
advertising in Los Angeles (where a typical commute is 30 miles and
most every parking lot has electricity), but perhaps too high if you are
advertising it in Detroit. The car is worth whatever someone will pay for
it.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ [EMAIL PROTECTED](=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Thomas Shay wrote:
>
> This sounds too good to be true. You're telling us, John, that
> Evercels suffer no loss of amphour capacity at the high currents
> that an EV demands and no loss of capacity at lower temperature.
> I hope you're right. Are these untested claims or has somebody
> actually tested and proved that amphour capacity is not affected
> by high current drain or reduced temperature?
>
> Tom Shay
The Real answer is not true... but pretty darn close. AMazingly close.
The only folks that will see it are those of us that ask for 500 plus
amps. So John will notice.... But a EVer after range not power will not.
Expect plots in a couple of weeks.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, sounds like a job for a washing machine motor, a soft-start capacitor,
a 15-amp breaker and an extension cord plugged into a GFCI. Wire it up so
that a spring-loaded "dead-man" handle cuts the power if you let go.
Tim
------------
From : "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject : Re: That time of the year again...
Date : Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:14:15 -0700
James and the group,
My son likes to collect scrap mowers from junk piles and fix them by
trading parts. He then either gives them away, or sells them with the
proceeds going to charity. Because of his activities, I have lots of
experience with walk behind mowers.
- Gas mowers are smelly, dirty, noisy, unreliable, and high
maintenance.
- Corded electrics are quiet, clean, reliable, light, and low
maintenance. But, then there's the cord.
- Cordless electrics are like the corded, but very heavy, limited
range, and expensive when those batteries need replacement.
- Push mowers are very quiet, clean, reliable, light, and
some maintenance. Little dust and pollen thrown about.
The cord. Someone showed me how to deal with the cord. Run the cord up
one arm, over the neck, down the other arm. That keeps the cord right
at your hand should you need to move it around and gives you tactile
feedback about what the cord may be doing. Mow back and forth and
always turn away from the power source.
Pushing. Modern push mowers are as easy to push as a light power
mower. They don't cut quite as well and should be sharpened about once
a year. you can sharpen them yourself in about 15 minutes with no
special tools, but send email if you are interested in the procedure
since it doesn't belong on this list.
My choice. I use a push mower unless I'm concerned about the clippings,
i.e. tall grass or lots of leaves. For that, I use a mulching corded
electric.
Mike - Phoenix, AZ
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The EV digests are available on the web at. There is a search function and
no extra stuff.
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Andre' B. andre-at-usermail.com
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of gail
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 3:36 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: EV Digest Mode
I receive the evdl messages one at a time and never get HTML attachments,
although sometimes there is a note which says an HTML message has been
removed. I am very happy with the list as it is, have no interest in
looking at yahoo messages. Quite often I am not using a mail tool which
can read HTML so I much prefer plain text which can be seen in anything.
Gail
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Here is some more info on Evercells in use.
http://www.evercel-europe.com/news.htm
Andre' B. andre-at-usermail.com
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 11:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
Thomas Shay wrote:
>
> This sounds too good to be true. You're telling us, John, that
> Evercels suffer no loss of amphour capacity at the high currents
> that an EV demands and no loss of capacity at lower temperature.
> I hope you're right. Are these untested claims or has somebody
> actually tested and proved that amphour capacity is not affected
> by high current drain or reduced temperature?
>
> Tom Shay
The Real answer is not true... but pretty darn close. AMazingly close.
The only folks that will see it are those of us that ask for 500 plus
amps. So John will notice.... But a EVer after range not power will not.
Expect plots in a couple of weeks.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> I wanted to order a couple, but lost track of your email with the final
> cost and where to mail my check. Could you refresh my memory?
The bumper stickers turned out beautifully. Here is the URL to Dean's site:
http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/grannumura/index.html
Here is a picture of the bumper sticker on my EV.
http://www.evadc.org/american_electrons_sticker.html
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
Power of DC
http://www.powerofdc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich wrote:
The only folks that will see it are those of us that ask for 500 plus
amps. So John will notice.... But a EVer after range not power will not.
Expect plots in a couple of weeks.
Hmmm, the MB80-12-8 looks like a good candidate for my Buggy. But I
don't know if the smaller MB80 would like seeing 400 amp (6C) peaks
(would the MB100 complain to much about 530 amp peaks?). Because of
the low average amp draw and minimal hill climb power needs of a
1420lbs EV I suspect I can get 30ah out of my Optimas. I'm not sure
what percentage I could really get of the MB80's 64ah when they
become available.
Taking a string of any battery to 0%SOC is never quite practical, if
for no other reason than the fact that 10 feet later you are in
trouble (while you can occasionally take Optimas below 20%SOC). Also,
I don't know how practical (or even desirable) bringing the Everecels
to 100% SOC each cycle really is. And then, what the actual ah and
watt hour penalties are for the occasional need for >250 amps would
be.
Still, if I could *use* 50ah then I would bring the safe range to 30
miles. If the batteries scale up, the MB100 (which won't fit in my
Buggy) would be good for 2.5 times the range as an equal number of
Optimas (and nearly the same weight). There is some real potential
here for a 1350lbs EV with a 30 mile range using a battery that I can
"drop in" replace my Optimas with (and replace the charging system).
I'm only running a Curtis 1221B :-)
I'm awaiting your reports on the new Evercels Rich...
Neon
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--- Begin Message ---
The other day Joe Smalley questioned Billg about where he came up with the capacity of
an
Evercel MB80 as being 64Ahr. I think he found it in the specs on their website at:
http://www.evercel.com/manufacturing.html
That's whats so interesting about your life cycle testing on a damaged battery which,
last
time i looked, still had capacities above this. These guys must not know that there
are
"Liars, damn liars, and battery manufacturers" in that order.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. I think the battery I gave Joe
was a M-100.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "fred whitridge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:19 PM
Subject: Evercel Capacity
> The other day Joe Smalley questioned Billg about where he came up with the
capacity of an
> Evercel MB80 as being 64Ahr. I think he found it in the specs on their
website at:
>
> http://www.evercel.com/manufacturing.html
>
> That's whats so interesting about your life cycle testing on a damaged
battery which, last
> time i looked, still had capacities above this. These guys must not know
that there are
> "Liars, damn liars, and battery manufacturers" in that order.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Evercells versus Yellow tops
> Tom, where have you been? Are you skipping messages on the EVDL? This
indeed, has been
> 'actually tested and proved'...I suggest you go back and read the myriad
of posts from
> myself, Sheer, Rudman, etc. Sheer has been out there, trudging away with
his Evercell
> powered Honda, and a year ago, was reporting 100 mile ranges in 29-32
degree weather,
> with a mere 800 lbs. of batteries!
John, I will take your suggestion to go back through the archives and read
about Evercels. No doubt there is much I've overlooked or forgotten. I do
skip a lot of messages.
Tom Shay
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> In really broad terms, this is what most nickel based batteries do. They
> are as a rule, much less affected by the rate at which the energy is
> withdrawn, and much less affected by lower temperatures. Not immune (it
> gets really cold near Boston) but less affected. NiMH starts to get soft
> at 20F, for example. Lead by comparison, is near useless at that
> temperature. I have ridden in vehicles powered by both chemistries and
> there is a big difference when it is cold.
>
> I am not aware of a nickel based chemistry that likes to be hotter than
> lead, though.
NiNaClAl - Nickel-Alumanum-Salt. It likes it at 300 degrees, and it offers
cell lifespans and energy densities that are phenomenal. Unfortunately, it's
still mostly made of unobtanium, and if you do happen to get one, expect a
pack to cost a cool 20 grand USD.
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Alan also saw it.
Ethanol is different than methanol.
Ethanol could be made from non petro chemical fertilized
field corn, but most is, in the corn belt. Its a bit
silly to use oil to grow corn, make ethanol, and then
run your car, when it takes food from mouths.
Methanol could be made from many waste sources, but the
Texas boys make most of it from Mexican NatGas CH4.
Both are fuels that release CO2 which would not be a
problem is the system were closed (not from a fossil
fuel).
Since this is not an available product and uses fuel,
I would of POSTed it on the AE List
http://www.eere.energy.gov/resources/list-altenergy.html
where fuels are discussed.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
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I am pretty sure it is not taking any food from mouths. There is so
much wet corn that sits around NW Ohio for months because they can't do
anything with it. There is a group of investors/farmers in Defiance
Co., Oh that are trying to get funding around to build an ethanol
production plant. They will be able to use a more wet corn that a
farmer could not normally sell to a grain elevator and will be producing
ethanol with many different by-products, the only one I can think of at
the moment being animal feed. I'm not exactly sure I remember what
their intened use of the ethanol was going to be. Just some FYI
Robert Rothrock
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce
> EVangel Parmenter
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 4:15 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Vodka Fuel Cell?! Ethanol battery?
>
>
> Alan also saw it.
> Ethanol is different than methanol.
>
> Ethanol could be made from non petro chemical fertilized
> field corn, but most is, in the corn belt. Its a bit
> silly to use oil to grow corn, make ethanol, and then
> run your car, when it takes food from mouths.
>
> Methanol could be made from many waste sources, but the
> Texas boys make most of it from Mexican NatGas CH4.
>
> Both are fuels that release CO2 which would not be a
> problem is the system were closed (not from a fossil
> fuel).
>
> Since this is not an available product and uses fuel,
> I would of POSTed it on the AE List
> http://www.eere.energy.gov/resources/list-altenergy.html
> where fuels are discussed.
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
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OK I found a link;
Most of them, that I've seen, are not this "refined" and really do look like
some backyard freakazoid weekend project thingy.
Definitely NOT EV material.
http://www.4x4hp.com/index.html
Stay Charged!
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: Humphrey, Timothy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 12:11 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: WOT! Monster cars was:( Better range from less weight)
No, Joe;
I don't think that is what they are talking about, what you have there is
just your basic monster truck. What they are talking about is a monster car,
a knid of frankenstein looking beast.
I have one down the road from me, I'll try to get a pic posted.
That link will be the last post from me on this WOT.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 1:22 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Better range from less weight
>
>
> Some advertisements for vehicles like you seem to be discussing:
>
> http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/2/0/40164820.htm
> http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/6/0/39890460.htm
> http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/2/4/42853424.htm
> http://adcache.atvtraderonline.com/16/4/0/43287040.htm
>
> These are not body transplants. I don't know what they are
> called. The key
> word seems to be 'monster'.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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A response from ZAP about their highway EV.
http://www.nbc11.com/morenews/1909403/detail.html
says what their battery could do.
He did say they are 'working' on it.
-
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:22:05 -0800
From: "Alex Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: re: zap car
> A news release says you have a 70 mph EV. <
I don't recall ZAP reporting that it is now selling such a
car. We are working with a company to develop our own 70
mph car and we unvealed a prototype at CES. Other than the
used ones though, we do not have a 70 mph car available yet.
Sorry for the confusion. If you could point out where it
says that we have one for sale, I would correct it.
Alex Campbell
Corporate Communications
ZAP
www.zapworld.com
Stock Symbol:ZAPZ
direct (707) 824-4150 x 241
main (707) 824-4150
fax (707)824-4159
117 Morris Street
Sebastopol, California
95472 USA
ZAP... Clearly a leader in transportation
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
A response from ZAP.
Typical sales type and no he does not remember me (he
always confuses my blazer with another).
Bottom line:
They do not want to put prices on their page.
-
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:16:29 -0800
From: "Alex Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: re: rap page
> On http://zapworld.com/new-cars.htm the link says EVs for
rent, but on the linked page http://zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
it does not have any EVs for rent. Also on
http://zapworld.com/rapcars.htm
You list Price: best offer
You should put a price not just best offer. <
Hello, Bruce! Now I'm sure you already own an electric car.
>From your questions, though, you sound very interested.
We've been getting many, many offers and questions. Since
most of these cars are used, we are trying to match people's
needs with what we have and/or finding them a car through
the ZAP network we are creating. Are you still driving that
sky blue blazer? Looking for an upgrade? We accept
trade-ins.
Alex Campbell
Corporate Communications
ZAP
www.zapworld.com
Stock Symbol:ZAPZ
direct (707) 824-4150 x 241
main (707) 824-4150
fax (707)824-4159
117 Morris Street
Sebastopol, California
95472 USA
ZAP... Clearly a leader in transportation
-
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com
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which
=====
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, lots of good background here. See my comments below. Mark
Thomasson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: AC controllers
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> The first problem is that you are not loading the batteries equally.
>
> Mark Thomasson replied:
> > In actual city traffic conditions, all the batteries get used almost
> > equally.
>
> That has not been my experience. For many years I drove a ComutaVan,
> which has a 3-step 3-contactor controller (36v with resistor, 36v
> direct, and 72v direct). Its top speed was 55 mph (at 72v), but my daily
> commute was on streets with a maximum 40 mph speed limit (which only
> needed 36v). Thus, I only used 72v while accellerating or on hills. Most
> of the time was spent cruising at 36v.
>
> With your arrangement, I would have had half the range. I'd arrive at
> work with the lower 36v half of the pack dead, but plenty of charge
> still left in the upper 36v half.
No, The method I am proposing does not work like this and does not suffer
this problem, or at least not in the manner you describe. Referring to the
circuit shown at http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/electric_drive.html ,
suppose that you have a 6v, 12v, 24v, and a 48v battery (represented by B1
to B4 in the circuit diagram). Also suppose your top speed is 60 MPH at
full voltage of 90v, and assume that speed is directly proportional to
voltage. For the 15 available voltage steps, the table below shows the
motor voltage, the speed, and the batteries used:
step 1 6v 4 mph 6v
step 2 12v 8 mph 12v
step 3 18v 12 mph 6v 12v
step 4 24v 16 mph 24v
step 5 30v 20 mph 6v 24v
step 6 36v 24 mph 12v 24v
step 7 42v 28 mph 6v 12v 24v
step 8 48v 32 mph 48v
step 9 54v 36 mph 6v 48v
step10 60v 40 mph 12v 48v
step11 66v 44 mph 6v 12v 48v
step12 72v 48 mph 24v 48v
step13 78v 52 mph 6v 24v 48v
step14 84v 56 mph 12v 24v 48v
step 15 90v 60 mph 6v 12v 24v 48v
If your usual speed is 40 mph (step10), you would be using batteries12v and
48v. If you're on a hill or need to speed up some, you go to step 11
(batteries 6v, 12v, 48v) or step 12 (batteries 24v, 48v), or maybe higher
with other battery combination. If you need to slow down, step 9 uses
batteries 6v and 48v. The point is that the batteries are shuffled in and
out of the circuit in a manner that tend to balance their loading during the
normal variations of driving speeds. However, if you spend most of your
time below 32 mph, then, with this design, the 48 volt bank will be under
utilized. For this and other reasons, the control scheme shown at
http://www.geocities.com/thomassonmj/motor_circuit.html has some definite
advantages. Using a shunt field motor, the armature voltage steps described
above control speed up to 20 mph. Then, with armature voltage at maximum
and all batteries in service, field voltage is weakend to control speed up
to 60 mph. Since the field current of shunt motors is typically only 5% of
the armature current, controlling this current uses relatively inexpensive
components. Also, speed control above 20 MPH is continuous with no steps.
With this arrangement, you could think of the armature voltage control as a
soft starting system, with the field weaking as the main speed control.
>
> >> Next problem; you still have a lot of contactors. The way they are
> >> arranged, if one fails shorted, it could be disastrous to close the
> >> next one.
>
> > Good point. Each battery bank should be fused.
>
> Note that a fuse is a resistor. It will have more voltage drop than a
> contactor. They are also amazingly expensive for ones that is guaranteed
> to work at high DC voltages and currents. You always need at least some
> fuses, but want to minimize the number of them.
>
> I think a better solution is not to use SPST contactors; use SPDT
> contactors, built so it is physically impossible to close both contacts
> at once even in the event of a welded contact. This is always done in
> commercial contactor controllers.
Unfortunately, this control scheme does not allow the use of SPDT
contactors. The interlocking you mention could be accomplished with
auxiliary contacts off each contactor tied back into the control circiut of
the appropriate interlocked contactor.
>
> >> This problem has been studied for a very long time by some great
> >> minds. You might want to look at some of their solutions.
>
> > Exactly, that's why I'm asking you guys for input!
>
> Most of the "guys" today have never even seen a contactor controller.
> :-) So, you'll have to study old equipment, books, articles, patents,
> etc. to see how they were done in their "golden age". Nowdays, most of
> the engineers who knew how to design them are dead. So, the ones you see
> today are often naive designs by people who lack the knowledge and
> experience to do it right.
>
> Thus, it's easy to find a high-mileage 1920 Detroit Electric with its
> original contactor controller that still works. And, it's easy to find a
> low-mileage CitiCar or golf cart with a contactor controller that's
> destroyed.
>
> >> For example, the batteries can be switched in series-parallel
> >> combinations so the load is always divided equally between them.
> >> Twelve 6v batteries can be wired for... 6v, 12v, 18v, 24v, 36v, 72v
>
> > This arrangement would take 33 contacts and gives only 6 steps.
>
> Correct; though that's 11 series/parallel contactors.
Thanks, good catch.
>
> > If you are willing to give up on the symmetry, you could get all
> > 12 evenly spaced steps.
>
> If you are using a PM motor, then you need more steps because its speed
> is directly proportional to voltage. With a series motor (much more
> common in EVs), you need fewer steps because motor speed is a function
> of both voltage and load. With a series motor, roughly 2:1 voltage steps
> turns out to be adequate (6v, 12v, 24v, 48v, 96v, ...)
The new method gives you smooth 6v increments all the way up.
>
> > The new method would give 15 steps with 15 6v batteries, but only
> > use 9 relays. Balancing of battery discharge would depend on the
> > natural variability of driving speed.
>
> There was a streetcar controller similar to what you describe. However,
> they had a scheme to balance the discharge. All the batteries were in
> series. There were two *big* rotary switches, that could select any tap
> from 0v to full pack voltage in 1-battery steps. One wire of each rotary
> switch went to each side of the motor.
>
> Start with both rotary switches fully counterclockwise, so both motor
> leads were at the 0 volt tap. To accellerate, turn ONE of the rotary
> switches up. 6v, 12v, 18v, 24v... the farther you advance it, the faster
> you go.
>
> But, this would discharge the batteries at the lower end faster, because
> they are used less. So, to slow down, leave the first switch where it
> was, and move the SECOND switch up to meet it. This brings the motor
> voltage back down. 24v, 18v, 12v, 6v, and 0v when both switches are on
> the same tap. This discharges the batteries at the higher end of the
> pack faster, thus compensating so all batteries average out to the same
> discharge rate.
>
> There was a voltmeter between the two taps, so the operator could see
> the battery voltage. It was a manual process; he looked at the voltages
> to see where his weakest battery was, and avoided using that one.
>
> The rotary switches were big slate panels, with coin-sized contacts
> arranged in a circle. The two switch arms were concentric cranks that
> the operator controlled manually.
>
> >> The classic series-parallel switch is a single contactor with 3
> >> contacts:
> >> ______________________
> >> + __|__ K1b |
> >> battery 1 ___ normally closed / K1c
> >> |__________/___________| normally open
> >> | K1a __|__+
> >> / normally open ___ battery 2
> >> |______________________| -
> >>
> >> If you don't need to do regen (carry current in both directions),
> >> then K1a and K1c can be replaced by a big diode. Then series-
> >> parallel switching is done with a single SPST contactor.
>
> > The new method also lets you reduce relay count by using diodes,
> > but diodes always have a forward biase voltage drop (~.7 v for
> > silicon) and therefore energy loss
>
> Contactors have a voltage drop too, especially as they age.
Mine have .004 ohms each after light usage.
>
> For low voltage systems you wouldn't use silicon diodes; you'd use
> Schottky diodes (0.5v drop), germanium diodes (0.25v drop), or MOSFETs
> (even less)
I wonder how the cost of these alternative device compare to silicon?
.
>
> Diodes have other big advantages. They provide a path for the inductive
> motor current during switching, which greatly reduces contact arcing to
> extend life.
I planned to use a free wheeling diode, but after seeing very little voltage
spiking across the relays on the oscilloscope, I left it out.
>They also eliminate the timing problem between opening one
> contact and closing another "simultaneously".
I originally used doides in the circuit for this purpose, but the
multiposition switch I use for speed control has enough "break before make"
that they were not needed and I left them out.
>
> Peukert effects
>
> There's another factor you may not be aware of. The amphour capacity of
> a lead-acid battery depends on the load current. The higher the current,
> the lower the capacity. It's called the "Peukert effect".
>
> Suppose you have golf cart batteries rated at 6v 225ah (at the 20-hour
> rate). If you load them at 75 amps, they only deliver 144 amphours. If
> you load them at 150 amps, they only deliver 122 amphours.
>
> Now suppose you have twelve of these batteries (a 72v pack). You want to
> cruise at a speed that requires 36v at 150 amps. With your controller,
> only half the batteries are supplying this current. Each has to provide
> 150 amps, so you can only drive for 122ah / 150a = 49 minutes.
As discussed above, at half speed I have the 48v bank in service. Speed up
a little and I pick up the 6v bank also. Slow down a notch and the 48v bank
drops out and the 6v, 12v, and 24v banks come into service. Small
variations in driving speed will balance out the discharge on the banks.
>
> With a series/parallel controller, the two halves of the pack would be
> in parallel, so each battery delivers half the current or 75 amps. Now
> you can drive for 144ah / 75a = 115 minutes. That's a big difference --
> more than 2:1!
It is definitely a good thing to have all the batteries in service all the
time, but this old method gives those big jumps in voltage and uses more
hardware for much fewer voltage steps.
>
> With an electronic PWM controller, it would leave the pack wired for
> 72v. It would draw 72v at 75 amps from the pack, but deliver 36v at 150
> amps to the motor. As for the series-parallel case, you could drive for
> 115 minutes.
>
You lost me here. How did the PWM increase 75 A of input current to 150 A
of output current? Where did all those extra electrons come from?
> For your scheme to be viable in any but very small vehicles that run at
> full speed almost all the time, I think you really must have some way to
> equalize the loading on all the batteries.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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