EV Digest 2828
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Efficiency web page
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Was: toyota echo conversion; now NiZn sag
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Efficiency web page
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Efficiency web page
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Efficiency web page
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: battery watering
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Semiconductors wear (was: Efficiency numbers)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery pack sizing questions
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) battery cooling
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Fwd from Bob Rice: Visit to Menlo Park 3
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: battery watering
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: battery watering
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Efficiency numbers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Efficiency numbers
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
James,
Great web site. It might be valid to include some deprecation for the gas
engine and EV motor. They both wear out eventually.
Paul Scott on the EV1 list posted a link to a LA times article on car
operating costs as calculated by the AAA. It seemed ridiculously high like
64.2 cents per mile. It might be interesting to look at the AAA report and
see what else they are including and what might be different between ICE's
and EV's.
<There is an article in the LA Times Highway section titled, "Owner's Cost
More Than Just the Payment". I talks about the cost per mile for operating a
car today. The survey was done by AAA and was conducted before gas went up.
Has anybody done any calculations on a per mile cost for operating an EV? It
would need to be inclusive of all known costs, tire rotation (a big one I
hear), windshield wiper replacement, etc. I'd like to write a letter to
contrast the ICE and EV in this way, but I want good data if it exists.
This is a pertinent paragraph from the article:
Costs take into account gas, oil, maintenance and tires as well as
insurance, depreciation, finance charges, title, registration and license
plates. However, tolls and parking fees, two major daily expenses, are not
taken into account.
Paul Scott
http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-costs23apr23,0,6
119313.story?coll=la%2Dclass%2Dautos%2Dhighway1
Owner's cost more than just the payment
A study for AAA calculates that a motorist spends an average of 64.2 cents a
mile for the added costs of gas, oil, maintenance and tires.
By Jim Mateja, Chicago Tribune
Dig deep.
A little deeper, if you own an SUV.
Most consumers think the cost of owning a car is simply the amount of their
monthly payment to the lending institution. But AAA says that's only part of
what it takes to operate a vehicle.
In its annual study on nationwide vehicle costs, AAA found that motorists
spend an average of 64.2 cents a mile, or $6,420 a year, for 10,000 miles of
motoring in a 2003 model car, up from 62.3 cents a mile, or $6,230 a year,
for an '02.
On average, drivers in the U.S. put about 15,000 miles a year on their
vehicles, even in freeway-filled Southern California.
According to the study, in 2003 it will cost you 55.3 cents a mile for a
compact car, 62.1 cents for a mid-size car and 75.2 cents for a full-size
2003. That's up from 53.4 cents, 60 cents and 73.6 cents, respectively.
Although an increase of a few cents a mile doesn't seem like much, consider
that over 10,000 miles of driving, that's $5,530 in '03, up $190 from $5,340
in '02, just to operate a compact car such as a Chevrolet Cavalier.
The cost to operate a mid-size car such as a Ford Taurus rose to 62.1 cents
a mile, or $6,210 a year, for '03, from 60 cents a mile, or $6,000 a year,
for 2002, a $210 increase.
The cost to operate a full-size car such as a Mercury Grand Marquis rose to
75.2 cents a mile, or $7,520 a year, from 73.6 cents a mile, or $7,360 a
year, a $160 increase.
The costs were actually higher because the AAA study was done when gasoline
averaged $1.46 a gallon in '03 and $1.19 a gallon in '02.
As for those who switched to sport utility vehicles, according to the study
a mid-size SUV, such as a Chevy TrailBlazer, cost 65.4 cents a mile, or
$6,540 a year, to operate in '03, up from 63.5 cents a mile, or $6,350 a
year, for a 2002 model, a $190 increase.
The study calculated the cost for a two-wheel-drive vehicle, not a less
fuel-efficient four-wheel-drive model.
The cost to operate a mid-size SUV is $330 more than for a mid-size car, but
$980 less than for a full-size car. The AAA study surveyed costs for just a
mid-size SUV, so Lee Czarapata, vice president of business vehicle services
for Runzheimer International, the management consulting firm that conducts
the AAA survey, was asked to calculate the cost for a full-size sport ute.
He did so for a GMC Yukon with a V-8 engine. The result: 78.64 cents a mile,
or $7,864 a year, to own a 2003 model.
As for vans such as a Dodge Caravan, the cost is 59.7 cents a mile, or
$5,970 a year for '03, up from 57.6 cents, or $5,760 a year, for '02, a $210
increase.
Costs take into account gas, oil, maintenance and tires as well as
insurance, depreciation, finance charges, title, registration and license
plates. However, tolls and parking fees, two major daily expenses, are not
taken into account.
Although gas prices were higher last year, interest rates declined and that
reduced financing charges.
For example, in 2002 the finance charge on a four-year loan at 8.5% on a
Taurus was $842, but in '03 the charge was $751 on the same loan at 7.5%.
And those who took advantage of zero-percent financing saved even more.
But the savings on financing were wiped out by higher insurance costs, which
reflect the increase in new-car prices for '03 from '02. On that Taurus, for
example, comprehensive coverage rose to $191 annually from $144, collision
rose to $386 from $321 and bodily injury/property damage increased to $498
from $484.>
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 6:21 PM
Subject: Efficiency web page
> Ok,
>
> I've been working on a project at my desk today so I had time to take the
> spreadsheet I posted earlier and turn it into a dynamic web page.
> This works pretty good (so far) I'm sure there are other things I should
> include (and I may if people tell me what to change/include).
>
> Anyway, take a look and play with it. I'd appreciate some feedback.
>
> http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV/index.php3
>
> James
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two EVers, Jon "Sheer" Pullen, and Leo (forgot last
name), are using them. 264V (Jon's car) will sag down
to 170 on a hard pull (ie, uphill), and if you're
going with a normal flooded replacement pack (120V,
Leo's car), you will _really_ sacrifice performance,
according to Leo.
Perhaps there is a new generation of NiZn that I
just haven't heard about and missed discussion about,
but that's the latest I knew.
--- Christopher Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I looked at this a couple of years ago; a quick
> look-over at the dealer
> seemed promising, but I didn't make any measurements
> at that time
> (the salesman wasn't amused or intrigued, in fact,
> it was Larry Fenton,
> the guy (mentioned on the Prius list) I later tried
> to buy a Prius from,
> but wouldn't deal (whereas another dealer quoted
> $500 less over the
> phone)). Anyway, it's been a year since I checked,
> but they were
> holding resale value well (>$7500 then), and haven't
> found any with
> dead motors that are out of warrantee (hadn't been
> long enough, yet).
>
> Let us know what you find out...
>
> -Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
>
>
> > I don't own an Echo and have yet to go take
> measurements. I will do this
> in
> > the next few days, I hope. Anyway I am hoping to
> fit 22 batteries under
> the
> > hood and in the trunk. By the way, the Echo has a
> 5 speed manual tranny.
> >
> > You mention, though, "quite a sag". I have read
> parts of Evercel's
> > technical document --
> >
>
http://www.evercel.com/download/nickelzinctechnology.pdf
> -- and they do
> talk
> > about a sag dependent on temperature of about 15%
> (200mV), where the
> higher
> > temperature (40 deg C) produces the higher
> voltage. They also mention a
> sag
> > due to current load, but I can't find any numbers.
> (They do refer to a
> > number of graphs, but they are missing from the
> document...) In a later
> > paragraph, they claim that capacity is essentially
> independent of current
> > load, though. I'm not sure how both of these
> statements can be true. One
> > thought is, as current load increases, so does
> temperature, thereby
> somewhat
> > neutralizing the temperature and internal
> resistance effects.
> >
> > Do you have any references to actual emperical
> data?
> >
> > -- Peri
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 6:11 AM
> > Subject: Re: toyota echo conversion
> >
> >
> > > It strikes me as an extremely narrow body.
> Remember,
> > > those Evercels have quite a sag, so you'll need
> to fit
> > > about 20-22 of them, both to overcome the sag,
> and
> > > also to get high enough voltage for the AC
> controller
> > > to perform decently.
> > >
> > > --- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > Do you have an echo ? dose it have a standard
> tranny
> > > > ? They look like good
> > > > car's for conversions to me
> > > > Steve Clunn
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 10:39 PM
> > > > Subject: toyota echo conversion
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm considering doing a conversion using a
> Toyota
> > > > Echo. Given it's
> > > > > relatively light weight, low drag
> coefficient, and
> > > > ample cabin size, it
> > > > > seems like a good choice. However, I don't
> know
> > > > what problems may lurk,
> > > > > such as enough space for batteries and space
> for
> > > > mounting the motor. Does
> > > > > anyone have experience with this vehicle or
> have
> > > > any advice, positive or
> > > > > negative?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm considering one of the AC motors and
> > > > controllers from Siemens with
> > > > > Evercel NiZn batteries.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Peri Hartman
> > > > > Seattle
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > > (in progress)! ____
> > > __/__|__\ __
> > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> came out of the steering
> > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync
> to Outlook(TM).
> > > http://calendar.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary,
I think, and I hope Victor will correct me if I am wrong, that if you can
control battery max amp draw by setting parameter 430 Ibat_Max_Pos.
Parameter 431 Ibat _Max_Neg sets max regen battery amps. Parameters 432 and
433 do the same thing for when you have the "Valet" switch on (the switch
which only allows only reduced power for when you trust your car to the
parking attendant <G>).
I have been conditioning my pack by setting Ibat_Max_Pos to 5 amps, putting
the car up on jacks, and running full throttle. (Don't try this at home
unless you make sure the car can not fall off it's jacks<g>). The motor
spins at about 3500 while I moniter the weakest cell. I start my recharge
when it hits 1.75 volts.
It does seem that I see higher instantaneous amp draw if I bang on the
throttle. Once it settles, it stays below what ever Ibat_Max_Pos is set at.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Battery pack sizing questions
> Ralph's experience suggests that we should consider the max power
> ratings, which appear to be lower in most of the advanced battery
> chemistries. I'm currently using a temporary pack of 14 nine-year-old
Hawker
> 38AH AGM batteries for a nominal voltage of 168V.
>
> The Siemens SIADIS program gives me the following statistics for my
> current draws on my Insight:
>
> total running time 5:44:30
> 0 amps 41:49 or 12.5%
> 0-100 amps 3:18:47 or 57.5%
> 100-200 amps 1:20:36 or 23.3%
> 200-300 amps 20:14 or 5.9%
> 300-400 amps 3:4 or 0.9%
>
> I have set a current limit of 200A for the motor (which can take
> 280A), but it would seem that it boosts the voltage and thus draws more
> battery current. (I'd really like to limit the battery current, so I'll
have
> to look at all the cryptic parameters to see if there is such a limit). I
> have two 300A 500VDC fuses in the battery pack which of course allow
short,
> small excursions past their rating without blowing.
>
> I plan to use a LiIon pack of 86 cells for 309V nominal. These seem
to
> have high internal resistance and the temperature increases with current
due
> to the exothermic reactions as well as the cell resistance. The
manufacturer
> has only published up to 1.5C constant current curves.
>
> We're seeing a temperature 43C after 72AH at 27A (.3C) constant
> discharge for one cell in a free standing battery of 4 cells. Lee has
seen
> 50C after 87AH at 25A.
>
> Perhaps an experiment is in order to watch the effects of larger
> current draws, but for short times. We'll probably have to arrange some
> cooling to avoid damaging the cell.
>
> This also suggests recording the volts and amps during normal
driving
> so that we have an idea of the proper real-life mix of current draws.
Victor
> had a small amount of data on this for his first two cells.
>
> Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting Cliff Rassweiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> James,
>
> Great web site. It might be valid to include some deprecation for the
> gas
> engine and EV motor. They both wear out eventually.
>
>
> Paul Scott on the EV1 list posted a link to a LA times article on car
> operating costs as calculated by the AAA. It seemed ridiculously high
> like
> 64.2 cents per mile. It might be interesting to look at the AAA report
> and
> see what else they are including and what might be different between
> ICE's
> and EV's.
>
Stuff Deleted
Yeah, There are a lot of things that I could add. I'm still trying to decide if
I should. For instance, wether the car is gas or electric you are still going
to have the following (not insubstantial) costs:
Insurance: This is MURDER on a new car.
Tires: EV's probably would cost a bit more, but who knows..
Tune Ups: While an EV doesn't have plugs, and timing, and all of that, it does
have batts that have to be fine tuned (individualy charged) and sometimes
replaced. Chargers that need adjusting, motor controllers that need to be
tweeked, etc.
Taxes, Tolls and other Fees.
I could very easily include these fields, and I may put them in an "optional"
section. Dunno, but the hard part is deciding what NEEDS to be there. In my
opinion (and correct me if I'm off base) the only things that should be
included are things that are significantly different between the two types of
cars.
I decided that since Gas or Electric, they have to be insured, to leave it out
as a "common" expense. I made the same decision on tune ups for two reasons.
1: I modern ICEs tune ups are rare enough to not noticably affect the per mile
cost, and 2: Since EV's also need minor adjustments, tweeking and futzing, I
figured, over the course of the life of both vehicles, that these costs were
not noticably different.
Your point about the "lifetime" of the motivator (Engine or Motor) is valid,
But since I don't have any idea as to the lifetime of gasoline engines or
electric motors, I left it out. I suppose I could put it in tho. But what do
I put?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2003-06-01 at 12:20, Lee Hart wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >> Same with an ICE. Your engine with 160,000 miles on it is mostly
> >> worn out. Its value is far less than it was when new. To restore
> >> your engine to its original condition could cost thousands of
> >> dollars. Even if your
>
> > Sure, but a escort new engine doesn't cost thousands of dollars.
>
> That's a surprise. What does a new Escort engine cost?
>
Just called Autozone. New engine costs $1499. Like I said, less than
two cheap battery packs
> > I don't know why we keep having this argument. Until gas gets a
> > whole lot more expensive EVs on average are more expensive than
> > ICEs on average.
> > If your goal is saving money, then EVs aren't the answer (yet).
>
> All I can say is that they've worked for me!
>
Yes but if there is one thing this list has CLEARLY demonstrated, you're
not average ;-) Not even for this list, let alone Joe Public.
> Under these conditions, EVs *are* cheaper than ICEs. I've kept records
> on all my cars for many years, and I actually do spend less on the EVs.
With the same kind of effort you could have bought $200 used ICEs and
got several years out of each without spending much money on parts (I
know people that do this.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Yeah, There are a lot of things that I could add. I'm still trying to decide if
> I should. For instance, wether the car is gas or electric you are still going
> to have the following (not insubstantial) costs:
>
> Insurance: This is MURDER on a new car.
And often more expensive for EVs, because they are different.
> Tires: EV's probably would cost a bit more, but who knows..
Don't forget brakes. They wear out faster on EVs without Regen and
slower on EVs with regen.
> I decided that since Gas or Electric, they have to be insured, to leave it out
> as a "common" expense. I made the same decision on tune ups for two reasons.
> 1: I modern ICEs tune ups are rare enough to not noticably affect the per mile
> cost, and 2: Since EV's also need minor adjustments, tweeking and futzing, I
> figured, over the course of the life of both vehicles, that these costs were
> not noticably different.
The Th!nk (I think) needed monthly battery maintenance that could only
be performed by the dealer. This may or may not be a trend.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James,
>
> Yeah, There are a lot of things that I could add. I'm still trying to
decide if
> I should. For instance, wether the car is gas or electric you are still
going
> to have the following (not insubstantial) costs:
>
> Insurance: This is MURDER on a new car.
> Tires: EV's probably would cost a bit more, but who knows..
> Tune Ups: While an EV doesn't have plugs, and timing, and all of that, it
does
> have batts that have to be fine tuned (individualy charged) and sometimes
> replaced. Chargers that need adjusting, motor controllers that need to be
> tweeked, etc.
> Taxes, Tolls and other Fees.
>
> I could very easily include these fields, and I may put them in an
"optional"
> section. Dunno, but the hard part is deciding what NEEDS to be there. In
my
> opinion (and correct me if I'm off base) the only things that should be
> included are things that are significantly different between the two types
of
> cars.
Yes, it makes a clearer more interesting page with just the things that are
significantly different. Engine costs might be. New ICE engine $1500 to
$8,000? 150,000 to replacement? EV motor- should you include the cost of
controller? How long will a electric motor last? How long will a contoller
last?
> Your point about the "lifetime" of the motivator (Engine or Motor) is
valid,
> But since I don't have any idea as to the lifetime of gasoline engines or
> electric motors, I left it out. I suppose I could put it in tho. But
what do
> I put?
You could put 5 optional fields: ICE motor cost, ICE motor Life, EV motor
cost, EV motor cost, EV controller cost, EV controller Life but without much
data, you are right, they probably are not helpful.
The only other suggestion I have is make the default for MPG closer to the
national average for new vehicles. I think it is something like 24 MPG which
just makes EV's cheaper <G>.
Thanks again for an interesting page.
(http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV/index.php3)
Cliff
www.ProEv.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken,
I'm guessing you have a new set of batteries.
If so, from what I understand, when the batteries are shipped new they are
not completely filled (to keep from sloshing around and spilling during
shipping). They are shipped with an adequate amount to sufficiently cover
the plates and then some. So you will probably be adding more water then you
normally would on that first fill then you will on a monthly basis.
When my car was at 96 volts I think I used a gallon or less every month or
so, after that initial first fill.
My method of filling is somewhat primitive. When I'm good at monthly filling
I use 3/4 of a dixie cup per cell of water per month. When I'm lazy and let
it go for like three or four month's it ends up being 2 dixie cups per cell.
Chip Gribben
On 6/1/03 2:47 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have 16 US125s (96v total) system, and just did my
> first watering after 6 weeks and 400 miles. The
> batteries took about 1.5 gallons total. Does this
> sound about right for the time/mileage?
>
> I live in the Bay Area (California), so the weather
> is moderate with mild temperatures and humidity.
>
> The plates appeared to be completely covered when I
> did the refill. I used a battery filling can, which
> has a special nozzle to limit the water height to
> the appropriate level.
>
> Thanks,
>
> .....Ken
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Electronic controllers don't wear out; they just work until
>> you exceed some rating and they "snap" (over-voltage, over-current,
>> over-temperature, or some other rating exceeded).
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee, I wish this was true, but this is wrong statement.
> Electronic components do wear out and have predictable life time.
> Mechanisms are well known and the life of the semiconductor
> parts even within specifications cannot be expected indefinite.
> Minimum 10-30 years though for typical parts you get from digikey
> or mouser, far longer than mechanical wear of ICE.
I'm not sure I would say semiconductors "wear out", like tires or light
bulbs or other things that suffer from wear or physical changes as they
get used. For these things, every time you use them, a little damage
occurs. When enough damage accumulates, they "wear out".
Semiconductors have some wearout mechanisms, but they are usually so
long it doesn't matter. We usually kill them for overstress (right now!)
rather than wear them out from decades of use.
The semiconductor wearout mechanisms I know are all thermally related.
If you don't get the parts too hot, they don't bother you. Are there
others that *do* apply to EV parts?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that you mentioned the parameters, I find that my 430 Ibat_Max_Pos
parameter is actually set at 280 (not 200, as previously claimed--I had it
set lower earlier). So this makes me feel a lot better knowing that this is
the limiting parameter for battery current. Perhaps I adjusted it up again
to get a bit more performance.
My 431 Ibat_Max_Neg is 100A. The corresponding "valet mode"
parameters, 432 and 433 are 100 and 100, respectively.
Your idea of jacking it up and running a load test is interesting!
If I could get 27A doing this, I wouldn't have to drive around the
block for 3 and one half hours. ;-)
Seriously, it means that one can do data collection with lab equipment
vs having portable monitors for everything. I should also find my weakest
battery and use it for the fuel gauge (haven't got to that point yet).
Gary
==========================================
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun Jun 1, 2003 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: Battery pack sizing questions
Gary,
I think, and I hope Victor will correct me if I am wrong, that if you
can
control battery max amp draw by setting parameter 430 Ibat_Max_Pos.
Parameter 431 Ibat _Max_Neg sets max regen battery amps. Parameters
432 and
433 do the same thing for when you have the "Valet" switch on (the
switch
which only allows only reduced power for when you trust your car to
the
parking attendant <G>).
I have been conditioning my pack by setting Ibat_Max_Pos to 5 amps,
putting
the car up on jacks, and running full throttle. (Don't try this at
home
unless you make sure the car can not fall off it's jacks<g>). The
motor
spins at about 3500 while I moniter the weakest cell. I start my
recharge
when it hits 1.75 volts.
It does seem that I see higher instantaneous amp draw if I bang on the
throttle. Once it settles, it stays below what ever Ibat_Max_Pos is
set at.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 12:45 PM
Subject: Re: Battery pack sizing questions
> Ralph's experience suggests that we should consider the max power
> ratings, which appear to be lower in most of the advanced battery
> chemistries. I'm currently using a temporary pack of 14
nine-year-old
Hawker
> 38AH AGM batteries for a nominal voltage of 168V.
>
> The Siemens SIADIS program gives me the following statistics for my
> current draws on my Insight:
>
> total running time 5:44:30
> 0 amps 41:49 or 12.5%
> 0-100 amps 3:18:47 or 57.5%
> 100-200 amps 1:20:36 or 23.3%
> 200-300 amps 20:14 or 5.9%
> 300-400 amps 3:4 or 0.9%
>
> I have set a current limit of 200A for the motor (which can take
> 280A), but it would seem that it boosts the voltage and thus draws
more
> battery current. (I'd really like to limit the battery current, so
I'll
have
> to look at all the cryptic parameters to see if there is such a
limit). I
> have two 300A 500VDC fuses in the battery pack which of course allow
short,
> small excursions past their rating without blowing.
>
> I plan to use a LiIon pack of 86 cells for 309V nominal. These seem
to
> have high internal resistance and the temperature increases with
current
due
> to the exothermic reactions as well as the cell resistance. The
manufacturer
> has only published up to 1.5C constant current curves.
>
> We're seeing a temperature 43C after 72AH at 27A (.3C) constant
> discharge for one cell in a free standing battery of 4 cells. Lee
has
seen
> 50C after 87AH at 25A.
>
> Perhaps an experiment is in order to watch the effects of larger
> current draws, but for short times. We'll probably have to arrange
some
> cooling to avoid damaging the cell.
>
> This also suggests recording the volts and amps during normal
driving
> so that we have an idea of the proper real-life mix of current
draws.
Victor
> had a small amount of data on this for his first two cells.
>
> Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
"With the various advanced batteries, it sounds like
active cooling
systems may be needed. For the LiIons, the Evercells,
and most of
the
NiCads, no provisions are made into the battery cases.
What would
be an
effective and efficient way to provide the needed
cooling? Is
there
anyway to estimate what the cooling load would be?"
Jim:
I am wrestling with this as I get the Evercel MB80's in my car. I dread
ever having to pull out the pack so I want to get the basics of an
active cooling system in before I put in the batteries and re-cable them
(from Optima automotive posts to Evercels dinky 1/4" bolts.)
I started with routing a channel for 1/4" I.D. Norprene tubing into a
piece of plywood that snugly fit the bottom of my rear battery box.
That was a failure since the pump I have could only push 1 liter per
minute thru the tubing. This from a pump that does 4gpm running
unconstricted.
The second attempt was much better and was inspired by Roger Stockton, a
grid of 1/2" copper pipe. The whole grid is shown being leak tested in
the pool with 20psi of air.....and voila no leaks. There are a bunch of
leaves and stuff floating on the surface in the picture, alas. I
previously flow tested about 2/3 of this serpentine deal and it moved
3gpm so this flow rate should be fine. While this is tedious to solder
all these joints, it will ultimately prove cheaper than larger diameter
Norprene would have been. I would have tried flexible copper tubing and
a bender, but it didn't seem to hit this same small radius that 90
degree and 90 degree "street L" fittings can achieve. The batteries
will be sitting on this, with 5/8" wood spacers between the loops so
they don't get squished. I also intend to put a Dallas one-wire temp
sensor under, and perhaps also on top or on one terminal, of each
battery. These are very accurate and I have proved them out with 10
Dallas 18S20 sensors sitting on the current Optima YT pack. The other
end of this cooling serpentine will be either a little radiator/heater
core or some loops of norprene in the unheated pool, or possibly a loop
of copper inside the little fridge that just came home for the summer
with one of my kids. There is a huge bunch of PC "Overclockers" and
active coolers that do gorgeous Wayland-esque workmanship liquid cooling
on their PC's complete with clear tubing and UV dyes and black lights.
Do a google search...
So....I don't know the total thermal load but I intend to find out in my
brute force, i.e., non thermal/liquid engineer method. Something tells
me that 700 pounds of NiZn or LiOn which go up 50 degrees F under fairly
light load are going to want to dissipate a bunch of heat by whatever
means possible. If homespun liquid cooling like this helps, I am sure
the battery manufacturers will take notice. I believe that the newest
generation of Texaco Ovonic NiMh are going to have hose barb and an
internal serpentine cooling path built into the case. At least that was
the design that ECD showed at one of their annual meetings.
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/norprene.JPG
http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/no_bubbles2.JPG
More as I learn more. Victor is shipping me a Brusa and I am struggling
to get higher amperage charge curves from Evercel. I hope to have the
first string of 10 MB80's in the car by mid June. This will follow with
a second paralled string of MB80's in the fall/winter when I can rip out
and rebuild the front battery racks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun Jun 1, 2003 10:32:46 AM US/Eastern
To: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fwd from Bob Rice: Visit to Menlo Park 3
Hi Listers;
A few updates from the Least Coast, CT in general. I just joined
the
legions of Electrak owners. Found one on line and the guy was 6 miles
down
the road from me in CT! A l;ocal fone call, run over in the Rabbit to
check
it out. It had last run in 96-7 or so so he said, the guy that
inherited it.
The snow from last winter had crushed the shed it was living in, so it
was
in solitary splendor in the back yard, under a tarp. Wow! It LOOKS
like a
tractor! Pulled the tarp back! A Very rusty, but solid, no missing
things,like steps seats, ect, Lying next to it was a lovely mower
deck. YES!
I had electric mowing in mind, can retire my MTD tractor,gas, still,
same
Beasty that John Wayland started with to create the Heavy Metal Garden
Tractor. Hey John; maybe ya could use the tranny if I junk it??Can
deliver
to PDX on the way to Woodburn. Same for you East Coaster motor need
people,
drop the motor off at Warfield on the way out, pick up on the way
back, save
shipping.Brian Metheny, drag that blown out 9" for reincarnation, ya
got.
Back to the story; "Batteries not Included" Cool! Be easier to
move it,
anyhow. Opened the rear battery box, a surprised and annoyed mouse
peered up
at me. USUALLY mice take off pretty fast , but this one acted very
annoyed
that I would dare disturb him. He hung in there, giving me looks of
distain,
as I looked over the tractor. HE looked over me, like where am I gunna
go?
Housing in CT, prices as they are. I would sorta like to ease him out
right
there in Westbrook, as if I bring him home, the cats may find him good
take
out, if I bring him home. Cats show their love and appreciation by
bringing
in their latest "Captures" and giving them to you. Hada friend over
for the
night and the cats presented us woth TWO confermed kills , delivered
to the
kitchen floor. BLEECH!
I don't know the model no. of the 'Trak, haz the little forward
reverse
lever on the right of the control panel. A charger, I guess in the
forward
end of the battery box? More details can follow, as I clean things up.
At
least the cover is still on the control box, unlike the one I bought
lastr
fall, a rolling rusted out gutted hulk that is a Wheel Horse, but
REALLY is
an Elect trac, you can see the family resemblance. THAT one came with
a nice
mower deck AND a snowthrower, plow, too. SO I have some good basic
stuff to
work with now. Oh JOY! No more gas mowers, EVentually. This Electrac
looks
good enough to do a restoration, do very local car shows.Etc.Oh I don't
think I'll go for the HMGT paint job, just the Yellow stock stuff.With
a"
Powered by American Electrons" sticker on it somewhere.
A visit to Menlo Park, 3, Yesterday I got to visit Bill Glickman's
answer to all the other Menlo Parks out there. Yes, it is in
Glastenbury CT
an easy 30 mile drive from my place. Was gunna meet Bill there and
drive
electric to the meeting of the Solar Energy Association of
Connecticut, a
group that meets monthly to talk about solar power. Before we left Bill
showed me around his extended garage, an EVers dream, including a nice
50
amp 240 volt plug I could refresh my Rabbit while there. Brought my
famous
Little Blue Box, Half wave across the 120 sides of a 240 volt outlet to
neutral. Plugged it in and WOW! 70 amps went surging into my
batteries! The
conduit to the outlet rattled, the little 12 volt Sears chargers on his
bench hummed strangly. Talk about Power Factor massicure! But the lites
DIDN'T dim, no, sir! Bill has 400 amp service in his HOUSE! Two ought
cables
out to his garage! Gees! Louise! you could run an Acela train out
there!
Checked the line voltage with a meter 241 No voltage drop here! Envey!
I
only have 200 amp service in my house, deprived, compared to this. Bill
showed me the box where the cables come into the house. Looked like the
mains at the RR shop! Needless to say, if yur in the Hartford area, and
needa charge, give Bill a shout!The charge went along about 60 amps,
my RR
surpluss diodes actually got warm! The ones that normally power, in
banks, a
65 tor electric RR coach up to 90 mph in their former life! That I
have clip
leaded on to. I could see J Wayland and Bruce Parmenter turn green with
envey, cables big around as my thumb! NO voltage drop here! Current
transformers to run the meter!Not a direct shot through a wimpy meter
socket. Other wonders were the piles of boxes of solar collectors
waiting to
be installed to join the ones on the garage roof, the gorgious Trace
48 to
120 volt pure sine wave inverters awaiting their masters call. Motors
batteries wires, goodies like John's Juice Bar in PDX. hard to believe
that
it could happen in CT, so far away from the Left Coast! And a cute Wind
Turbine on the roof if the wind picked up. As EVerybody else into this
kinda
stufrf, it's the Time Factor to deal with, having to go to work duz
cut into
Bill's time to finish up all the Wonders to be at Menlo Park After the
tour
we had a bite for lunch, and launched out in the rain, weekend, you
know,
for the meeting, refreshed, pretty much charged up to 150 volts again.
Arriving at the SEAC meeting, about 40 people aware that something
needs
doing, in energy saving Many of the members have solar assised homes,
solar
hot water panels and photovoltiac panels to assist cutting energy
bills.
These guy are doing it! But doing it in CT of late hasn't been easy.
We had
one of the coldest winters on record, vertually no spring, cold even
now, in
the 50's and RAINING as it has EVery weakend for the last month or so.
With
this shitty westher the output of the solar collectors was pretty
dismal,
but it dous clear up, so they say, but CA and Fla would be the place
for
payback, more than here, but it is to see spirited folks trying, to
save and
make their own energy. Jim Mell came down, by Preus, so we had 3 EAA
guyz
among the solar group. Much interest was shown in EV's many had never
met a
working, non trailer queen daily driver EV. Was thinking that it was a
perfect place for a Blue Meany appearance, maybe smoke show. When a
blaaah
Rabbit can steal the show, yu KNOW that those people are ready for a
custom
built clean EV. But, of course they can't just go out and BUY one, they
hafta make it themselves, like EVerywhere else. Sigh! Of course it
opened up
and POURED as the meeting let out. We had a veggy Diseasel Rabbit, a
Preus,
Jim's and a ' lectric Rabbit all lined up for anybody to swim out and
look
Went back to Bill's plugged in for some conduit rattlin' good
charge,
watched a PBS CT PBS specials on the CT energy scene. OF COURSE! they
never
mentioned EV's but blathered on about fool cells and " Cleaner " Gas
engines. By the time their done ya wanna throw something at the TV,
like a
brick, and re collect your donation to PBS from their LAST Begathon.
PBS is
getting to be more an' more like commercial TV with thinly veiled ADS
for
this and that, "Funded in Part by, and member donations" Bla Bla Bla.
One
guy DID ask if we would like to do a TV spot on EV's for a home grown
cable
thing. Of course I sed "yes", and volunteeered Jack Gretta Tony
Ascrizzi,
Bill, of course and EVerybody else in this area. Yeah! Overwelming
selection! I know<g>! But were working on expanding our ranks out
here. Some
TV time? We'll try anything!
OK I went out and BOUGHT that Plymouth Sundance I mentioned, for
the
NEXT EV. Evercells? Li Ons? Waiting to see how they are working out
for ,
maybe the NEXT bulk purchase, after hearing how great they are doing,
first
time around.No more 4000 lb EV's?? Meanwile the ICE runs good,
Sundance can
be a spare, spare car for now. Wheee! No rust! Everything underneith
shiny
and CLEAN!
That's about it from the CT front, for now.
Seeya
Bob
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's hard to say if the amount of water used is reasonable without
knowing how much water was in the cells in the beginning.
I didn't like and didn't use my water filling can because it put more
water in each cell than I wanted. It would fill the cells almost 1/4
inch above the bottom of the slotted tubes. I preferred to stop filling
about 1/8 inch or so below the bottom of the slotted tubes which
hopefully reduced the amount of acid pushed out the cell vents when
the cells gassed.
I used a drinking water glass. I'd look in each cell, estimate how water
was needed, put slightly more than that amount in the glass, pour in
about 2/3 of the contents of the glass, look in the cell again, pour more
water into the cell if needed. This sounds slow and tedious but it's not.
The routine is quickly learned and then it's fast and easy.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sell, Ken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:34 AM
Subject: battery watering
> Hi,
>
> I have 16 US125s (96v total) system, and just did my
> first watering after 6 weeks and 400 miles. The
> batteries took about 1.5 gallons total. Does this
> sound about right for the time/mileage?
>
> I live in the Bay Area (California), so the weather
> is moderate with mild temperatures and humidity.
>
> The plates appeared to be completely covered when I
> did the refill. I used a battery filling can, which
> has a special nozzle to limit the water height to
> the appropriate level.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you're using floodies (no more for me!), I highly recommend those
battery watering cans. They make watering so much easier and faster!
The amount of water your batteries take obviously depend on a lot of
things, but one no one has mentioned yet is your charger. A simple
charger like a Lester will overcharge your batteries every single
charge unless you modify it so it doesn't. This means your batteries
stay more equalized, but they also consume a lot more water.
Seth
On Sunday, June 1, 2003, at 04:28 PM, Chip Gribben wrote:
Ken,
I'm guessing you have a new set of batteries.
If so, from what I understand, when the batteries are shipped new they
are
not completely filled (to keep from sloshing around and spilling during
shipping). They are shipped with an adequate amount to sufficiently
cover
the plates and then some. So you will probably be adding more water
then you
normally would on that first fill then you will on a monthly basis.
When my car was at 96 volts I think I used a gallon or less every
month or
so, after that initial first fill.
My method of filling is somewhat primitive. When I'm good at monthly
filling
I use 3/4 of a dixie cup per cell of water per month. When I'm lazy
and let
it go for like three or four month's it ends up being 2 dixie cups per
cell.
Chip Gribben
On 6/1/03 2:47 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi,
I have 16 US125s (96v total) system, and just did my
first watering after 6 weeks and 400 miles. The
batteries took about 1.5 gallons total. Does this
sound about right for the time/mileage?
I live in the Bay Area (California), so the weather
is moderate with mild temperatures and humidity.
The plates appeared to be completely covered when I
did the refill. I used a battery filling can, which
has a special nozzle to limit the water height to
the appropriate level.
Thanks,
.....Ken
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> What does a new Escort engine cost?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Just called Autozone. New engine costs $1499. Like I said, less than
> two cheap battery packs
That's not new; its rebuilt. It's like buying surplus nicads or used
golf cart batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are some other variables that come to mind .. The way I use my work
truck would make batteries look a bit better than for most . When I used
gas I got 10 mpg using it the way I do , pulling a trailer and lots of
starting and stopping . I might start it 10 to 20 times a day (cutting
lawns ) with a lot of slow driving between yards . This is good for the EV
but bad for the gasser. I have gotten over 15 k on a pack . So if we wanted
to make EV's look good and gasser's look bad then compare them under driving
conditions like these . On the other hand take high way driving 75 mph and a
gas car may look better . Many times while cutting people's lawns I'll
find a bucket of old motor oil sitting open somewhere and I ask " want me to
take that in to the recycling place " , The guy at the auto store " for
someone who drives an EV you sure bring in a lot of used motor oil" Well at
least they put it in a bucket ,I sure it would have been easier and cheeper
to just drain it on the ground right , .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Efficiency numbers
> >> A general comparison that non-EVers might understand better is that
> >> battery cost and the savings in ICE maintenance roughly cancel out.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Sorry but I don't buy that. Not with modern ICEs. My Escort is almost
> > 10 years old and approaching 160,000 miles. Assuming a similar EV
> > with 'cheap' 6V GC batteries I'd have gone through 5-8 sets by now
> > ($5,000-$8,000).
>
> Suppose your EV batteries are good for 10,000 miles. If you drive your
> EV 9,999 miles, is your cost for batteries zero? No, because the
> batteries are shot. The value of your EV is low because of the bad
> batteries. You'd have to replace them to sell it. When you include the
> replacement cost, then you have a more accurate picture of battery cost
> per 10,000 miles.
>
> Same with an ICE. Your engine with 160,000 miles on it is mostly worn
> out. Its value is far less than it was when new. To restore your engine
> to its original condition could cost thousands of dollars. Even if your
> engine hasn't failed yet, your cost per mile is the cost of a new engine
> minus what your old one is worth.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
