EV Digest 2834
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Watch your quoting!
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: [video link] as a consolation prize..
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Status of E-Cycle?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT - Please don't use HTML
by Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Scooter project
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: OT - Please don't use HTML
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Scooter project
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Status of E-Cycle?
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: US Battery Life
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: OT - Please don't use HTML
by "Mark Abramowitz"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Another over-priced EV on eBay
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Status of E-Cycle?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Another over-priced EV on eBay
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC technology reprsentation (Re: all-electric Insight in the EValbum
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: OT - Please don't use HTML
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: battery cooling
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Scooter project
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: battery cooling
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: battery cooling
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Put out the flames! (was RE: Status of E-Cycle?)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Status of E-Cycle?
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another over-priced EV on eBay
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Scooter project
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Put out the flames!
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Status of E-Cycle?
by "Mike Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Another over-priced EV on eBay
by "Russell Levine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: First EV ride from Oz.
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: First EV ride from Oz.
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Another over-priced EV on eBay
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Status of E-Cycle?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>So if you use Outlook, please use its setup to ^turn off^ message
quoting, and selectively copy and paste the text to which you want to
respond into your reply.
Lol. Well it is widely used. I use it on both my PC and my Mac. Wouldn't
it be easier for the one or two people left in the world that can't
handle html, and quoting, just to upgrade rather than have the rest of
the world disable their computers to such extremes?
Now don't everyone go postal on me. I'm not kidding, but I mean it in a
friendly way :)
HTML email should be banned for security reasons. Plain text can't
automatically call websites to download spyware or Trojan horses, or
run system scripting to install viruses. These are all things that
virus mails have done (especially on Windows) in the past few years.
All in exchange for a little "usability" that adds nothing. Email's
only function is communication. Plain text and the ability to attach
files communicates information just as easily, and with more
reliability and interoperability than HTML. Therefore, HTML is
useless for email. As for quoting, I don't care what method a person
uses as long as I can read the message and figure out what is being
said. Again, the only point of email is communication. A person
should use what they are comfortable with and skilled at.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> ...
> Wouldn't it be cool to have a camera that could
> easily be put in a racing EV. Then each run
> could be recorded?
>
> I suppose to get the whole experience, the camera
> would need to be mounting in a light weight crash
> dummy that could be strapped into the passenger
> seat.
Never mind that - have the entire run computer / remote controlled and put the
dummy in the driver's seat! Save 80kg! :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my very unqualified opinion, I would say that the difficulty on the
power electronics side is at least equal to the control side. It depends
on the level of control you want. But the minimum "ante" for development
is higher on the power side than the controls for just basic
functionality, like a scooter drive. For something in that power range
you could buy some specialized ICs to do the 3 phase logic work and
spend the rest of the year getting the power stage to do what you want.
If I remember correctly, the Motorola/ On Semiconductor MC33033 and
33035 are a good place to start for the ICs if you want to spin your own.
If you were to get someone else's design, unless you build exactly the
way it is designed to be built, you are likely to run into a lethal
powerstage design flaw. I would be surprised if anyone gave out their
layout and power stage packaging info, because getting all those pieces
heatsunk, connected correctly with snubbing, high speed caps and a
low(ish) inductance path to the big bus caps is a little bit art. And
probably the result of some expensive learning. Or so it seems to me, as
an amateur who has blown up a few MOSFET (amongst other things) in the
past year.
I wish there was a low voltage ~5kW BLDC drive available, but I went to
sep-ex last year because I couldn't get one. The minibike from hell
motor won't do 5kW for 30 minutes, and Rich had the only drive that
could do that power (I suspect, I never got to test it for no fault of
Rich's product).
Just my 2nH
Seth
Gordon Niessen wrote:
>
> That is all well and good for an electronics guru like you to say. But
> point me to one person or company that can give me a BLDC motor and
> controller in the 4-8kw range. Or send me your design and I'll build and
> test it. But I'm a digital guy and try not to warp my brain trying to
> design analog circuits.
>
> If someone helped eCycle deliver on what they are promising, they could do
> a lot of good and make money doing it.
>
> At 12:47 PM 6/3/2003, you wrote:
> >I just laugh.
> > I have the prototype BLDC motor that E Cycle " Swiped" from a
> > client of
> >mine.
> >I have a few controls that drive it. Not a issue.
> >I have one that makes 250 amps per phase at 60 volt, and was intened to
> >make 250 amps at 156. I did have to make all the electronics. So It
> >works.
> > Ecycle seams to have no real clue how to make a BLDC power stage that
> >is current limited. Kinda a basic DC control concept.
> >My first BLDC stages were 6 DCP raptor circuits on little test cards.
> >Then I stuffed them onto a PCB, and that worked at 48 volts. I don't
> >trust them at over 60 volts. And have since designed better.
> > Now this Gate drive is on the PFC chargers, and does 240 VAC and
> > 480 DC
> >gate control. So doing a current limited 3phase BLDC drive with 400 volt
> >peaks should be pretty basic.
> >
> >There are about a Dozzen folks here on the EVlist that could Dash out a
> >BLDC power stage for Ecycle. That would work very well. I still can't
> >believe that they used a Curtis to feed a inverter, and claimed they had
> >the most advanced BLDC drive. You can do this now with single chips, no
> >great amount of Data or CPU needed. The shots they had of thier power
> >stage was mind boggling complex. Multi QFP chips and control.
> > The logic is they do a current Source feed to thier inverter
> > stage, OLD
> >stuff, say pre WW1 contol strategy. Now you can do it with PWM control
> >of the same transistors that do the phase inversion work.
> > Pretty motor... No cooling. and that's another story.
> >The Mini bike from hell has all this stuff on it and it is now a 5 year
> >old project.
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Rich Rudman
> >Manzanita Micro
> >www.manzanitamicro.com
> >1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting Mike Brandon:
> Lol. Well it is widely used. I use it on both my PC and my Mac.
HTML is for web pages. Use it on your web pages, don't use it in email.
It doubles (at least) the size of your messages, and 99% of the time it
adds no value whatsoever that can't be expressed in plain text.
> Wouldn't it be easier for the one or two people left in the world that
> can't handle html, and quoting, just to upgrade rather than have the
> rest of the world disable their computers to such extremes?
Perhaps, Mike (and anyone else who wants to use HTML), you would like to
pay for those "one or two people" to upgrade their computers and their
internet connections so that you can send them crap they don't need.
Oh, and while you're feeling generous, there are some trans-atlantic and
trans-pacific comms links that are slowing the rest of us down, too.
> Now don't everyone go postal on me. I'm not kidding, but I mean it in
> a friendly way :)
If that was friendly, I don't want to see what "unfriendly" looks like.
It came across as a whiney "I wanna do it my way" to me. Sounds like
you think the whole world works the same way as Mike Brandon's little
corner of Missouri - well, it doesn't, okay?
I mean all this in the nicest possible way, of course. :-)
--
Lesley Walker
LRW_at_clear.net.nz
No longer @eds.com !!!
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
--- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depending on battery storage maybe a Lynch motor might be good for your
project. Lawrence Rhodes....
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=3449
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=3312
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:03 AM
Subject: Scooter project
> I'm starting to change a vintage Powell scooter from a 5-hp Briggs &
> Stratton to electric. Anyone have a suitable package they want to sell?
>
> Roger Daisley
> Laguna Hills CA
> Ph: 877-454-0205
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HTML is for web pages. Use it on your web pages, don't use it in email.
It doubles (at least) the size of your messages, and 99% of the time it
adds no value whatsoever that can't be expressed in plain text.
Well I do and will use it in email. I won't use it in this list however.
Feel free not to use it if you like : )
> Wouldn't it be easier for the one or two people left in the world
that> can't handle html, and quoting, just to upgrade rather than have
the > rest of the world disable their computers to such extremes?
Perhaps, Mike (and anyone else who wants to use HTML), you would like to
pay for those "one or two people" to upgrade their computers and their
internet connections so that you can send them crap they don't need. Oh,
and while you're feeling generous, there are some trans-atlantic and
trans-pacific comms links that are slowing the rest of us down, too.
Guess I don't much like you're attitude. You're sending us "crap" we
don't need in this message without using html. So it's all relative I
suppose. I'm a pretty nice guy. I sent my message with a smile on my
face and a smile in the message. You seem somewhat hostile.
> Now don't everyone go postal on me. I'm not kidding, but I mean it in>
a friendly way :)
If that was friendly, I don't want to see what "unfriendly" looks like.
It came across as a whiney "I wanna do it my way" to me. Sounds like
you think the whole world works the same way as Mike Brandon's little
corner of Missouri - well, it doesn't, okay?
Maybe we should get together and I could show you. And no, it's not ok.
You have more than crossed the line here. I encourage you to speak to me
and others in email the same way you would if we were face to face. Keep
in mind the chance that we will meet face to face is extremely high
considering our love for EV's.
I'm not sure what set you off, but I suggest you see someone about your
problem.
God Bless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok,
Now I have a question. The motor/controller pair listed in the below
message comes out to be a little over 9 hp & 36v.
The motor in my Henney is only a 7 hp motor. I know that these are not
rated at 72 volts (or are they?). Aside from the obvious mechanical
problems, what is to keep me from hooking two of these in series (kinda like
Otmar's car) and using them to replace the old Henney motor. I know it's
not long for this world (it's already over 40 years old).
Am I completely missing something or would this work?
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
IBM: Invented By Murphy
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 9:00 AM
To: Roger Daisley; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Scooter project
Depending on battery storage maybe a Lynch motor might be good for your
project. Lawrence Rhodes....
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=3449
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=3312
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 10:03 AM
Subject: Scooter project
> I'm starting to change a vintage Powell scooter from a 5-hp Briggs &
> Stratton to electric. Anyone have a suitable package they want to sell?
>
> Roger Daisley
> Laguna Hills CA
> Ph: 877-454-0205
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a moderator for this list? If so to I have to put up with the
likes of that last message?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked Nawaz a while ago about the suitability of the US250 and
US250HC for EV use. He said no problem, only difference between
them and smaller 6V deep cycle batteries was that the 250's came
in a slightly heavier rubber (?) case. This seems to no longer
be the case, so to speak, since the ones I got have nice two-tone
blue plastic cases. He recommended that I go for the HC version.
I did not specifically ask him about cycle life. I assumed
that their cycle life would be proportional to depth of discharge
just like any other deep cycle battery. They are pretty heavy,
and have big L-posts with a hole big enough for an M8 bolt. I
assume that they have not seen a lot of use in EV's principally
because they are so heavy. At 78 lbs, a pack of 24 would weigh
nearly 1900 lbs. I went with these because I have a 96 volt
system and wanted some range.
So far they have zero cycles. I started installing them and have
still to make a rack for two of them. Found another place where
one of the connectors for the controller was nearly touching the
frame so I'm moving the controller. Also moving the e-meter -
can't read it in the sun. Too much to do! The garage is a
mess, I still have to wire up the batteries and rewire the
charger connections, wire up the 240 volt outlets for the charger
and the welder I just bought. REV2003 is 3 days away and I don't
EVen have picures yet. Where does the time go? It's that day
job. My accountant says I can't retire yet, so there is not much
choice.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
According to
http://www.usbattery.com/dealers1.htm#Connecticut
Rae Storage Battery Company
51 Deming Road, Berlin CT 06037
(860) 828-6007 , Fax (860) 828-4540
is your local dealer and can give you the prices you
need. Be sure to tell them the quantity you plan to
buy (large quantity purchases should cost less).
More+
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22RAE+Storage+Battery%22
Looking at battery manufacturers in your area
http://www.gy.com/biz/335911/860.htm
You might want to see what they offer in a US-250
comparable battery.
Verify if they charge for delivery (they don't here)
and if they will allow you a 2 week delay before
picking up the dead cores. If you do not have
dead batteries to return, you will have a per
battery charge.
I can usually find enough abandoned dead starter
batteries in the back of parking lots and shopping
malls. Ask, but they usually do not care what
battery they take back. All lead-acid batteries
are the same: lead+electrolyte+plastic.
...
Battery specs can be found on
http://www.usbattery.com/specs1.htm
Looks like the US-250 models are a 6V battery, but
they are not listed on the EV battery page. They are
listed on the Renewable Energy/PV page
http://www.usbattery.com/photovlt.htm
and the sweeper/scruber page
http://www.usbattery.com/6vltswpr.htm
Looking at the Trojan page, a comparable Trojan battery
is the J250P
http://www.trojanbattery.com/GeneralDC.asp?Product=186
Using their battery picker page
http://www.trojanbattery.com/combo.asp
I see their J250P not on the golf cart page, but on
their renewable energy and deep cycle pages.
This makes me think the US-250 is not a traction
battery, but a deep cycle battery.
If this is true, then like the cheap nEVs that do not
use traction batteries, but deep cycle batteries, you
should not bring the US-250 down beyond half capacity.
Else you will shorten the battery life.
Traction batteries like:
US-1800 US-2000 US-2200 US-125 US-145
or T-105 T-125 T-605 T-145
are designed to be deeply discharged.
You should ask your US battery dealer (above) if
the US-250 models are deep-cycle. IF this is for an
EV, ask if the US-205 can handle the vibration an
EV can produce.
-Bruce
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Bruce,
My Menlo Park III is located in Glastonbury, CT.
I use Menlo Park III as a signoff because one of our previous VPs
of
NEEAA once said my place reminded him of the real Menlo Park after
he
took a tour of all my solar systems, electric vehicles, and
experiemental
projects such as heat pumps and flywheels. There are two real
Menlo
Parks that I know of, so I use Menlo Park III :-).
I still need the answer to the question of deep cycle (80 % DOD) on
US
Batteries: US250 and US250HC and ballpark prices for a dozen.
Thanks.
Menlo Park III,
Bill Glickman
1051 Hillstown Road
Glastonbury, CT 06033
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 06/05/03
at 12:31 AM, Lesley Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>HTML is for web pages. Use it on your web pages, don't use it in email.
>It doubles (at least) the size of your messages, and 99% of the time it
>adds no value whatsoever that can't be expressed in plain text.
Thanks for posting that.
>Perhaps, Mike (and anyone else who wants to use HTML), you would like to
>pay for those "one or two people" to upgrade their computers and their
>internet connections so that you can send them crap they don't need.
Hardly a matter of upgrading PCs for most of us. I can handle HTML just
fine if I want, but as you say, it's a waste for E-mail, which a plain
text medium. 95% of my HTML mail are spam anyway, and I delete it
automatically. Others aren't aware that they're sending HTML mail (what
idiot made HTML on by default in browser E-mail programs?!), and turn it
off when instructed how to do so.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Mark Abramowitz"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
-----------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$10K for an EV Civic wagon...does it become more valuable when it gets to
28yrs old? (at least the batteries are new):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2417660823
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 06:23, Mike Brandon wrote:
> Is there a moderator for this list? If so to I have to put up with the
> likes of that last message?
>
That's a bit harsh Mike. I don't see what Seth said that you're upset
about.
Successfully building a BLDC power stage is at least as difficult as any
other EV drive and completely on topic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I don't consider this overpriced.
If it is everything he says it is then I would expect to pay up to 15,000
for it. New batteries and immaculate. Looks good. High range. Old body
style but that's not horrible.
> $10K for an EV Civic wagon...does it become more valuable when it gets
> to 28yrs old? (at least the batteries are new):
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2417660823
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Talking about AC, less than half of people I know have done (or
> currently doing) it, submitted anything.
>
> At the moment, in 2.5 years of availability,
> Siemens AC systems equipped EVs are:
>
> Gary: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/461.html
> Al: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/455.html
> Bryan: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/260.html
> Sheer: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/338.html
> Jim: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/326a.jpg
> Eddy: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html (OEM)
> myself: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/194.html
>
> Wating for Cliff :-)
>
Before we can take pictures, the car needs to washed and waxed and the new
stickers need to be applied and......
Ok, Ok, soon <G>,
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I encourage you to speak to me and others in email the same way you
would if we were face to face.
I expect that she did. I detected a strong hint of sarcasm in Mrs.
Walker's note.
Keep in mind the chance that we will meet face to face is extremely high
considering our love for EV's.
Unlikely considering Lesley lives in New Zealand.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1/2" tubing seems a little big. To aid in cooling / heating I would solder
on a fin made of copper flashing to the straight sections of pipe. Then
bend the flashing to go up the sides of the batteries. This would help the
heat transfer to the tubes.
Steve Paschke
> ----------
> From: Christopher Zach
> Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2003 7:56 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: battery cooling
>
> What you run into is condensation.
>
> Chris
> (has a 50 year old Radiant heat system. Copper pipe)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 9:27 AM
> Subject: Re: battery cooling
>
>
> > So basically put tubing in the "floor" of the battery compartment just
> > like the radiant heating system I'm working on for my house.
> >
> > However, in reading about radiant heating, everything I've seen says
> > that it doesn't work to run cold water through the tubing in the floor
> > to cool the house. How well will the heat inside the battery get
> > transferred to the liquid in the tubes underneath?
> >
> > Joe's thought of surrounding the batteries with a liquid sounds much
> > more effective, but, umm, messy. To keep the interior batteries equally
> > cooled, perhaps could sub divide the box into several compartments each
> > with its own fluid pump.
> >
> >
> >
> > fred whitridge wrote:
> > > I started with routing a channel for 1/4" I.D. Norprene tubing into a
> > > piece of plywood that snugly fit the bottom of my rear battery box.
> > > That was a failure since the pump I have could only push 1 liter per
> > > minute thru the tubing. This from a pump that does 4gpm running
> > > unconstricted.
> > >
> > > The second attempt was much better and was inspired by Roger
> Stockton,
> > > a grid of 1/2" copper pipe. The whole grid is shown being leak
> tested
> > > in the pool with 20psi of air.....and voila no leaks.
> > >
> > > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/norprene.JPG
> > > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/no_bubbles2.JPG
> > >
> >
> >
> > Joe Smalley wrote:
> > > One idea that was tossed around it to use flooded battery boxes where
> > > a cooling fluid bathes the sides and bottom of the batteries in a
> > > continuous flow. If the velocity is fast enough, the difference in
> > > temperature between the batteries is minimized. The cooling fluid
> > > could be either a liquid or a gas. The trick is to control the flow
> > > and temperature gradients to get a constant battery temperature.
> > >
> >
> > _________
> > Jim Coate
> > 1992 Chevy S10
> > 1970's Elec-Trak
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Jarrett wrote:
> Ok,
> Now I have a question. The motor/controller pair listed in
> the below message comes out to be a little over 9 hp & 36v.
>
> The motor in my Henney is only a 7 hp motor. I know that
> these are not rated at 72 volts (or are they?). Aside from
> the obvious mechanical problems, what is to keep me from
> hooking two of these in series (kinda like Otmar's car) and
> using them to replace the old Henney motor. I know it's not
> long for this world (it's already over 40 years old).
>
> Am I completely missing something or would this work?
>
> James
<snip>
> Depending on battery storage maybe a Lynch motor might be
> good for your project. Lawrence Rhodes....
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&pro
duct_id=3449
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=527&product_id=33
12
Hi James,
The Etek motor has a continuous rating of 7 hp with a peak power of only
15 hp. If your Henney motor is series-wound DC, its peak power could be
over 30 hp. Series motors are typically much more tolerant of higher
peak output, in part because their greater mass takes longer to heat up.
Also, don't assume your motor is on its last legs because it's 40 years
old. With an occasional brush replacement (every 50-80k miles?) and
maybe new bearings (150-300k miles?) it might live longer than you.
Maybe your grandchildren, for that matter.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a great idea. In fact, you could optomize on this solution by
taking sheets of copper and cutting them large enough to slide between pairs
of batteries, with an extra 1/2" sticking out the top. Then solder the pipe
to the flanges sticking out the top. The benfits of this technique:
batteries sit on the bottom of the rack and have no play between them.
Pipes sit on top and would be accessible should there be a problem.
Peri Hartman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 8:03 AM
Subject: RE: battery cooling
>
> 1/2" tubing seems a little big. To aid in cooling / heating I would
solder
> on a fin made of copper flashing to the straight sections of pipe. Then
> bend the flashing to go up the sides of the batteries. This would help
the
> heat transfer to the tubes.
> Steve Paschke
>
>
> > ----------
> > From: Christopher Zach
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2003 7:56 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: battery cooling
> >
> > What you run into is condensation.
> >
> > Chris
> > (has a 50 year old Radiant heat system. Copper pipe)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 9:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: battery cooling
> >
> >
> > > So basically put tubing in the "floor" of the battery compartment just
> > > like the radiant heating system I'm working on for my house.
> > >
> > > However, in reading about radiant heating, everything I've seen says
> > > that it doesn't work to run cold water through the tubing in the floor
> > > to cool the house. How well will the heat inside the battery get
> > > transferred to the liquid in the tubes underneath?
> > >
> > > Joe's thought of surrounding the batteries with a liquid sounds much
> > > more effective, but, umm, messy. To keep the interior batteries
equally
> > > cooled, perhaps could sub divide the box into several compartments
each
> > > with its own fluid pump.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > fred whitridge wrote:
> > > > I started with routing a channel for 1/4" I.D. Norprene tubing into
a
> > > > piece of plywood that snugly fit the bottom of my rear battery box.
> > > > That was a failure since the pump I have could only push 1 liter
per
> > > > minute thru the tubing. This from a pump that does 4gpm running
> > > > unconstricted.
> > > >
> > > > The second attempt was much better and was inspired by Roger
> > Stockton,
> > > > a grid of 1/2" copper pipe. The whole grid is shown being leak
> > tested
> > > > in the pool with 20psi of air.....and voila no leaks.
> > > >
> > > > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/norprene.JPG
> > > > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fw/no_bubbles2.JPG
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe Smalley wrote:
> > > > One idea that was tossed around it to use flooded battery boxes
where
> > > > a cooling fluid bathes the sides and bottom of the batteries in a
> > > > continuous flow. If the velocity is fast enough, the difference in
> > > > temperature between the batteries is minimized. The cooling fluid
> > > > could be either a liquid or a gas. The trick is to control the flow
> > > > and temperature gradients to get a constant battery temperature.
> > > >
> > >
> > > _________
> > > Jim Coate
> > > 1992 Chevy S10
> > > 1970's Elec-Trak
> > > http://www.eeevee.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These may be of some interest, I have no idea what they cost.
http://www.chtechnology.com/products/chillplates.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peri Hartman
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 10:29 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: battery cooling
This is a great idea. In fact, you could optomize on this solution by
taking sheets of copper and cutting them large enough to slide between pairs
of batteries, with an extra 1/2" sticking out the top. Then solder the pipe
to the flanges sticking out the top. The benfits of this technique:
batteries sit on the bottom of the rack and have no play between them.
Pipes sit on top and would be accessible should there be a problem.
Peri Hartman.
<< snip >>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jun 2003 at 8:23, Mike Brandon wrote:
> Is there a moderator for this list? If so to I have to put up with the
> likes of that last message?
Mike, I hope you'll forgive me when I say that the tone of your posts on
this subject, including the first, has also been a little too rough. I know
you meant well, and you even mentioned that you were writing in good faith.
But please remember that sometimes text (even with html ;-) does a rather
poor job of conveying the in-person communciation we all are used to -- body
language, facial expression, tone of voice, and so on. We all need to
choose our words carefully when the subject is even mildly controversial.
Lesley, your response was actually ^more^ of a problem. I understand your
point, but your post increased the anger level. Better to go the other way.
Both of you -- please let this thread die. Our objective is to have all
posters send only plain text to the list, not html. Mission accomplished
(at least for now). No further discussion is needed.
To everyone -- One of the things that make the list valuable is spirited
discussion, even debate, on EV topics. That's good. But once in a while a
poster gets angry and goes too far. The post becomes flame bait. The best
way to handle flame bait is for everyone to IGNORE it. If you feel you must
respond to flame bait, please do so privately, not on the list.
I strongly recommend that when you do respond to a potentially controversial
post (on or off list), don't send the response right away. "Park" it for an
hour or two, then come back and review it. Most likely you'll either edit
it to tone it down, or not send it at all, and the list will be better off
for your restraint.
Thanks all.
Wearing my assistant EVDL admin hat today,
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Which E-Cycle message are you referring to?
At 08:23 AM 6/4/2003, you wrote:
Is there a moderator for this list? If so to I have to put up with the
likes of that last message?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jun 2003 at 6:53, The Levine Family wrote:
> $10K for an EV Civic wagon...does it become more valuable when it gets to
> 28yrs old?
It does look nice, and the description suggests that condition is quite
fine, but I think that the starting bid is off by about a factor of five.
This is not a high performance EV. It's a traditional conversion with 80's-
vintage technology -- flooded golf car batteries, a Prestolite motor, a
transistor controller (probably Curtis, though it doesn't say).
It's also a really old glider. Although it may be well maintained, it's
still going to be tough to get some of the parts.
I'm sure there's a lot more than $4k in it, but I'd say that's about what
it's worth.
PS - check out the row of meters across the instrument panel. <g>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jun 2003 at 9:31, James Jarrett wrote:
> I know it's [the motor] not
> long for this world (it's already over 40 years old).
'Taint necessarily so! Carefully used, traction motors can last for
hundreds of thousands of miles. GE estimated in 1980 that theirs were good
for at least 250,000 miles with regular brush maintenance.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion
Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
-- Harper's Index, April 2002
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is there a moderator for this list? If so to I have to put up with the
> likes of that last message?
Mike, I hope you'll forgive me when I say that the tone of your posts on
this subject, including the first, has also been a little too rough. I
know
you meant well, and you even mentioned that you were writing in good
faith.
But please remember that sometimes text (even with html ;-) does a
rather
poor job of conveying the in-person communciation we all are used to --
body
language, facial expression, tone of voice, and so on. We all need to
choose our words carefully when the subject is even mildly
controversial.
My apologies to the list. Onward and upward!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lol! Ok. Forgot to change the subject.
That's a bit harsh Mike. I don't see what Seth said that you're upset
about. Successfully building a BLDC power stage is at least as difficult
as any other EV drive and completely on topic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<PS - check out the row of meters across the
instrument panel. <g> >>
Meters? Oh, I thought those were the "6 out of 7"
awards he mentions, all mounted on his dash!
Even if it somehow *is* worth $10K, it should be as a
reserve price, not the starting bid. I tend to trust in
the market to set the final value of an eBay item, so
most of mine are started well below what I *hope* they
will sell for. Sometimes it goes higher, sometimes much
lower, but to me, at least, it means *someone* wants it!
________________________________________________
PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
http://www.peoplepc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote:
What is the peak
amperage on the emeter when you take off from a complete stop. How many peak
amps can you safely pull from the batteries without doing them harm.
The baby DCP controller is rated for 450 battery amps peak. Actually,
I've never saw much over 400 amps.
As far as doing the batteries *harm*, I'm not sure. The range is
better if you generally limit the amps used to 300 peak and 150
continuous.
My last question for the group, the motor on Mikes VW truck is a Prestolite
MTC-4002, how does that compare with 6" or 7" ADC motors?
Its comparable to the ADC 8" motor. Actually, quite close in specs
all the way around except that Prestolite motors are very rarely duel
shaft. Plus, the brush area of a Prestolite motor is larger, so they
are pretty good at taking high amp abuse.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> As far as doing the batteries *harm*, I'm not sure. The range is
> better if you generally limit the amps used to 300 peak and 150
> continuous.
Is there a "rule of thumb" for this sort of thing? I have wondered what the
best amp-hour draw and max peak for my 26 ah Hawkers should be.
Right now I keep the pack (52 ah) between 60 amp hour for highway cruise and
no more than 120 amp hour for peak accel.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, I think somehow this fellow feels that $10K is a low starting
price.
He mentions that if the bid goes high enough that he will pay the
"negligible" cost of shipping. Of course he doesn't mention how high
"high enough" is.
On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 11:29, Russell Levine wrote:
> <<PS - check out the row of meters across the
> instrument panel. <g> >>
>
> Meters? Oh, I thought those were the "6 out of 7"
> awards he mentions, all mounted on his dash!
>
> Even if it somehow *is* worth $10K, it should be as a
> reserve price, not the starting bid. I tend to trust in
> the market to set the final value of an eBay item, so
> most of mine are started well below what I *hope* they
> will sell for. Sometimes it goes higher, sometimes much
> lower, but to me, at least, it means *someone* wants it!
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________
> PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart.
> http://www.peoplepc.com
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > The logic is they do a current Source feed to thier inverter stage, OLD
> > stuff, say pre WW1 contol strategy. Now you can do it with PWM control
> > of the same transistors that do the phase inversion work.
>
> Hi Rich.
>
> They were claiming that by separating the PWM and the three phase
> inverter that you keep PWM out of the motor and this improves motor
> efficiency.
>
> What are your thoughts on this?
Total Bullshit!
The PWM is there no matter what you do. And Like who cares?? With high
enough PWM Hz and some amounts of inductance in the motor, You get a
sine wave or modified Trapazoid wave anyways. The magnetics kinda make
the wave they want. And if you are useing the magnets as your encoder
pulse, you get the timing you need for massive starting torque. This is
what us EVers with traction need. Prop guys need timing advance and
sensorless for the nice high speeds.
Also if you break down any good AC drive, including my stuff you get 6
nice little Curtis type PWM controllers. Of course mine were 6 nice
little DCP Raptors.
If you used a PWM and a large inductor, and filters, then the inverter
stage would see cleaner DC. But again what's the point?? You get NO
gains in power or smoother torque ripple.
Trans mag makes a cute credit card version. Aevox also has nice simple
ones. But they really need propeller forced air cooling to get any hang
time at full power.
My stuff makes full power for about 15 minutes at 175 amps a phase. Size
does matter if you don't have good cooling.
I see there is still a demand for 2 to 15 Kw BLDC and AC drives... 5
years after I thought so.
The nasty thing about this market sector is: It needs the largeness of
REAL power stages, Copper and cooling and REAL control software, and
everybody thinks it should cost about what the dinky credit card RC
drives cost. 400 amps for 1/2 a second is nice but at 30 seconds it's
gonna make some real heat.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
