EV Digest 2843
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Battery Research at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 72V dc/dc
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Starting torque
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Thundersky cells
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Tropica battery replacement
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Starting torque
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 1200A contactor?
by "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) : Photos - General Motors Hy-wire
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) was over-priced EV on eBay/factory conversion.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 72V dc/dc
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) DC to AC
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Citroen Saxo pictures online
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Citroen Saxo pictures online
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: was over-priced EV on eBay/factory conversion.
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) article: Brits target electric speed record
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: REV2003
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) !958 Chevy Truck Conversion
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: was over-priced EV on eBay/factory conversion. Ford Truck Price.
by Lee Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: !958 Chevy Truck Conversion
by "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: article: Brits target electric speed record
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://eetd.lbl.gov/BERC/ejc.rep.html Lots of references. Lots of
technical data. Lawrence Rhodes..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little trick might be to use two 36v small 35 to 50 watt dc/dc units.
Getting power each from half the pack. This will charge your battery. Run
your lights. 4 bucks a piece. Lawrence Rhodes...If they weren't enough you
could use more.........
----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:40 AM
Subject: 72V dc/dc
> As the posibility of my Henney Kilowatt getting on the road looms closer
> (only a few days now I hope!!) I have come to the scary realizaion that
the
> built in charger does not charge the 12v accessory battery. This is bad.
I
> can charge it separately with a 12v charger I have, but ideally, I would
> like a good 72v dc/dc charger to keep it "topped up" from the main pack.
>
> Anyone got a good (and cheap) 72v dc to 12v dc converter you are willing
to
> part with? Wattage is not an issue. Of course, the higher, the better.
>
> James
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
> The superior man is distressed by the limitation of his ability; he is not
> distressed by the fact that men do not recognize the ability he has. -
> Confucius
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> AC convert, NO>>>>>>>>>>>>the potential to bypass and tweak is
to
> much fun!!~!! Dennis Kill A WATT Berube
8
> sec qt.miles currenteliminator.net
I'm sure *someone* in EV land can "tweak" an AC drive, it's just not as
easy - maybe more software than hardware?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I certainly hope this is a theoretical upper bound. Something a cooling
system might want to have an adequate amount of thermal mass to deal with
these sudden influxes of heat. I have the original full sized radiator, and
I like the idea of liquid battery cooling. This might have the advantage of
combining battery and motor controller heat, so that the water cooled motor
controller will throttle back when things get too hot.
So far I have never seen the heat gauge move on both the Insight and my S10
truck.
I'm not sure that I can relate the internal resistance data to the TS curve
4 data, which I assume is for their 100AH cell. One might expect the 90AH
cells will be fairly close to the 100AH numbers. Curve 4 shows the voltage
drop for 1.0C (100A) as giving about 95AH before they hit 3V. Is this curve
constant current (that's my guess). And even at 1.5C (150A) draws
continuously it still delivers 65AH before hitting 3V.
The other interesting aspects are the actual heat generated (or cell
temperature for a fixed configuration), and, of course, the cell lifetime
under those conditions.
It should be easy to replicate the .5C (45A). 1.0C (90A), and 1.5C (135A)
curves in graph 4 for the 90AH cells, and record the temperature while we're
at it (being careful to not get too close the 70C degree limit). This should
answer some of the questions.
Later, I wouldn't mind using one or two cells for lifetime tests. Perhaps
one at constant current and the other under a simulated driving test (this
will take some time to program, but we could simulate the 6% peak loads of
150A).
The original Insight power is 54KW with gas and electric going full bore. So
I won't be drag racing! I, too, am more interested in range and pack
longevity, as long as I can merge onto the freeway at >50% SOC!
BTW, my 5000 lb S10 pickup full of lead with the Dolphin AC driver fully
charged only takes 145A at 312V nominal to go up the 6% grade at 45mph on
route 26 from downtown Portland to the Sylvan summit. I'm sure the 2100 lb
Insight will be fine at 150A and 309V nominal, even with 2-3X the internal
resistance of Hawkers. However, the same truck does pull 170A to accelerate
on a flat surface.
With 200mi range, we don't have to go below 50% SOC very often at all!
I can also do the hybrid pack thing with 20 Hawker Genesis 12V 16AH power
pack in the gas tank box and 56 LiIon in the IMA box and still get 175 mi
range with 143 lbs more weight. However, I am still optimistic that a pure
LiIon pack will be fine.
Recall that Wayland's original idea was to use the Insight hyrbrid drive as
a genset for long trips. I'm still keeping the engine for that idea, even
though it may end up on the truck and not on a trailer. For both the genset
and hybrid pack ideas, a slightly modified DC-capable PFC50 could be very
handy! (Don't worry, Rich, I'll have you do it if I go there!).
But that's why we're doing these experiments! Thanks to your work, Lee's
work, and others, we should have at least some information to make the
judgement calls and some options to choose from! We'll know the strengths
and weaknesses, and can then come up with something that works for our
varied goals.
Another thought is to run your same experiment with a Hawker (I have a few
extra of 42AH ones as well). It would be interesting to compare the internal
resistance numbers as a function of SOC.
Gary
============================================================
Chris Brune wrote:
> Gary wrote:
> How about 15.4KW at 85%SOC to 26.3KW at 25%SOC!
> Good thing I'm only planning on using 309V nominal pack drawing up
to
> 1.5C or 135Amps: only 13.2KW at 85%SOC to 22.6KW at 25%SOC. ;-)
I assume you are talking about a theoretical amount of heat generated by the
cells here. Do we have enough data to assume that "equivalent series
resistance" of the cells actually results in 100% heat?
What concerns me more is that at least upto 1.0C discharge currents the
thunder sky graphs (Curve 4) seem to show the cell voltage be limited to
2.75V. If the cell voltage needs to be kept above 2.75V then it is entirely
possible that at only 100A draw you'll be limited to ~42Ahr drawn out of the
cell.
And at 100A with the cells down at 2.75V even your 85 cells only give you
~23kW of usable power. Not exactly stellar accleration.
I HOPE that series resistance goes down as I add more cycles. The
Thunder-sky curves certainly imply a much lower series resistance. We'll
see. And keep in mind that this is a sample of one cell, I haven't tested
any of the others.
Chris Brune
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using the best impedance measurement of 8.45 milliohms and an OCV of 3.9
volts, the maximum power current is 230 Amps. The peak power at this point
is 448 Watts per cell. If four cells were considered a 14.4 V block, then
the peak power would be 1792 Watts per block.
Evercel MB100 internal impedance is 8.8 milliohms deteriorating to 15
milliohms near end of discharge. If the battery is 90% charged, the maximum
power current is 795 Amps for a maximum power of 5568 Watts per 8 cell
block.
Has anyone made duration measurements at these current levels?
It would be interesting to see the temperature rise at this current.
To do the test, do the following:
-Set a temperature recorder probe on the cell.
-Wrap the cell in insulation. A blanket or foam cooler is adequate for this
test.
-Start the temperature recorder.
-Draw peak amps for 5 seconds.
-Wait for the heat to conduct to the surface and the surface temperature to
stabilize.
-Repeat using longer and longer discharge periods until the cell reaches the
maximum operating temperature.
-Plotting the duration on the horizontal axis and the temperature rise on
the vertical axis should approximate a straight line.
-It may take several cycles to fill in the curve.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 2:20 PM
Subject: Li Ion Series Resistance
> I have been conditioning some of Gary Graunke's Thunder sky Li ion cells.
> After completing three charge discharge cycles on one of the cells I
> decided to try to investigate the current capability of the cell.
>
> Starting from a fully charged state I measured the voltage of the cell as
I
> increased the discharge current in 10A steps upto 60A. I did these steps
as
> fast as I could, pausing approximately 5 sec at every step.
>
> After completing the readings I discharged the cell at ~27A for 30min. I
> then set the current to 0A and waited 1 min. I then repeated the process
of
> taking data in 10A steps.
>
> This was repeated until the cell was essentially fully discharged.
>
> A graph of the data is on Gary's web site at
> http://ev.whitecape.org/lion/Cell89ResistancevsSOC.PDF
>
> I would be interested to know what system voltages people plan on running
> with the cells. What kind of current draws are planned?
>
> Chris Brune
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Watts per Ampere hour is a performance issue.
Watts per Watt hour is basically the inverse of hours. The higher the
number, the faster you can discharge the battery.
A battery that you can discharge in 10 seconds will accelerate a lot faster
that one that takes one hour to discharge even if it were externally
shorted.
The number is roughly proportional to short circuit current or roughly
inversely proportional to cell impedance. These are the more common
measurements of a similar parameter.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 4:12 PM
Subject: Re: Thundersky cells
> On Mon, 2003-06-09 at 14:37, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I was looking at the thundersky site last week.
>
> > A more useful rating might be Watts per Ah or Wh.
>
> Huh? 1 watt for 1 hour = 1Wh. How would watts per Wh be a useful way
> to rate anything?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Once they are dead, fill the case with baking soda. That will make them
benign enough to handle.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 2:08 PM
Subject: Tropica battery replacement
> I pulled out my pack this morning and found 3 batteries with their tops
blown off. The cause of the explosion seems to be that arcing I saw between
the top of one battery and the battery rack. When I removed the top of the
rack, you could see a burn mark and a hole that went into the battery. It
appears the flame traveled through the watering system as the 3 blown
batteries were all on the same watering circuit. So much for flame disks.
I'll be replacing the watering system as well. One question I'll have to
answer is why is my rack not floating and why I'm not tripping ground fault
interrupters? Can you arc from acid seeping from a cell to the frame? I'll
post pictures in the next few days.
>
> I just got off the phone with US battery and will have some nice new
US125s soon. In the mean time I'm cleaning up the mess and making some
improvements. Does anyone have a suggestion for the best way of disposing
the topless batteries? I thought I might put a load on them until they are
dead just to reduce the acid concentration. As this all occured at the
finishing stage, they're all almost fully charged.
>
> thanks,
> Steve
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The hard part is getting the impressive zero RPM torque to move the first
car length out of a lightweight motor AND still pull big amps across the
finish line. Dennis can do both with DC. I'm still waiting for an AC machine
to do it. They can do it at the finish line, but not at the starting line
with the same hardware.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "The Levine Family" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: Starting torque
> > AC convert, NO>>>>>>>>>>>>the potential to bypass and tweak is
> to
> > much fun!!~!! Dennis Kill A WATT Berube
> 8
> > sec qt.miles currenteliminator.net
>
> I'm sure *someone* in EV land can "tweak" an AC drive, it's just not as
> easy - maybe more software than hardware?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Using the best impedance measurement of 8.45 milliohms and an OCV of 3.9
> volts, the maximum power current is 230 Amps. The peak power at this point
> is 448 Watts per cell. If four cells were considered a 14.4 V block, then
> the peak power would be 1792 Watts per block.
Although I completely understand where you got these numbers, we need to be
clear that this isn't necessarily useable power. At the maximum power point
the voltage at the terminals would be 3.9/2 = 1.95V. From the graphs, I
have seen the voltage needs to be kept above 2.5V. So in reality you can
only get (3.9 - 2.5)/8.45mohm = 166A and only 2.5V*166A= 415 W/cell.
I don't want to jump to conclusion on these cells yet though. I've only
tested one extensively.
I did do a series discharge of four cells today at 27A. One cell had a temp
rise of about 30C. The whole block gets pretty warm.
>
> Has anyone made duration measurements at these current levels?
>
> It would be interesting to see the temperature rise at this current.
>
> To do the test, do the following:
>
> -Set a temperature recorder probe on the cell.
> -Wrap the cell in insulation. A blanket or foam cooler is adequate for
this
> test.
> -Start the temperature recorder.
> -Draw peak amps for 5 seconds.
> -Wait for the heat to conduct to the surface and the surface temperature
to
> stabilize.
> -Repeat using longer and longer discharge periods until the cell reaches
the
> maximum operating temperature.
> -Plotting the duration on the horizontal axis and the temperature rise on
> the vertical axis should approximate a straight line.
> -It may take several cycles to fill in the curve.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Interesting idea. What exactly is this going to tell me? Do you have an
example of the graph that I could see?
Chris Brune
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may have a 24V coil, but for what voltage are the contacts rated:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2536936098
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This will tell you the surge power capability of the cells.
I would imagine that the cell is not going to be destroyed by pulling it
under 2.5 volts for a millisecond or even a second. At one second, I would
imagine that the temperature rise would be measurable.
By using the temperature rise of the cell, you can measure the stress on the
materials. There is a point where the materials will fail. It may be at 166
amps for 20 minutes or 230 amps for 1 minute.
There is an operating envelope where they survive. I would imagine the
envelope is defined by temperature, current and time. By using the test
procedure I proposed, the relationship between the three variables can be
measured to get a better picture of how the envelope is shaped.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Brune" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: Li Ion Series Resistance
> >
> > Using the best impedance measurement of 8.45 milliohms and an OCV of 3.9
> > volts, the maximum power current is 230 Amps. The peak power at this
point
> > is 448 Watts per cell. If four cells were considered a 14.4 V block,
then
> > the peak power would be 1792 Watts per block.
>
> Although I completely understand where you got these numbers, we need to
be
> clear that this isn't necessarily useable power. At the maximum power
point
> the voltage at the terminals would be 3.9/2 = 1.95V. From the graphs, I
> have seen the voltage needs to be kept above 2.5V. So in reality you can
> only get (3.9 - 2.5)/8.45mohm = 166A and only 2.5V*166A= 415 W/cell.
>
<snip>
>
> Interesting idea. What exactly is this going to tell me? Do you have an
> example of the graph that I could see?
>
> Chris Brune
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't see any windshild wipers and what that running out from under the
left front wheel ?
> Nice concept. This vehicle could easily accomodate a large pack of
> batteries below the floor. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
>
> > Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
> > http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003/photos_035.html
> >
> >
> > General Motors Hy-wire
> >
> > Front passenger side.
> > Actually, that all depends.
> > The driver controls can be moved from the left side to the right.
> >
> > Front wheel and bumper.
> >
> > Arriving at the Philadelphia Festival.
> >
> > "Will I get to drive something like this?"
> > Notice the little rear-view camera housing on the front corner of the
side
> > window. It's image is presented on an LCD screen inside the car, at
just
> > about that position, although a little lower and further forward,
> > mounted on the inside surface of the front wheel well.
> > There is another camera-monitor pair on the other side.
> >
> > Now that's a BIG game console.
> > Actually it is used for data analysis and emergency braking. It also
> plays
> > Tetris.
> >
> > The rear seats.
> > The center panels of the seat backs are a mesh material that "breaths"
> easily.
> > Notice the size of the single door hinge.
> >
> > Here you can see one LCD display on the steering wheel and another on
the
> > center console.
> > Notice how the steering wheel is on the left side of an arm supported by
> the
> > center console. The arm can be slide so it would now be in front of the
> > right seat, and the steering wheel slides on the arm so it is in the
> correct
> > position for the person in that seat.
> >
> > - - - -
> > The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2003 can be found at:
> > http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2003
> > The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
> > http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
> > - - - -
> > The above is Copyright 2003 by Michael H. Bianchi.
> > Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
> > without modification and this notice remains attached.
> > For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
> > - - - -
> > For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
> > http://www.TourdeSol.org
> > - - - -
> > Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
> > the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
> > 413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
> >
> > Jack Groh
> > Tour de Sol Communications Director
> > P.O. Box 6044
> > Warwick, RI 02887-6044
> >
> > 401 732-1551
> > 401 732-0547 fax
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
.
> There is a EV in my town that I have heard about but not
> gone to see . Its one bought at an auction from one of the power companies
,
> a ford ranger I believe , AC drive and all the goodies but it doesn't work
.
> What is it worth ? If it's not working not very much but if it was a
> "regular" conversion I'd have been there the day I heard about it but as a
> "factory conversion" I'm almost sure there's nothing I could do to get it
> going . Some day when I have time I'll go look at it and may be posting
> questions but I know how things go ,
Friday I just happen to be in the area , I drove down a long road called
industrial av. with big buildings on either side , things didn't look good
for finding the EV ford hidden somewhere in all these where houses. It was
close to 5 pm so most places looked closed . I saw two men talking one on
a fork lift . I pulled in , ( with my 83 ford ranger ev) and said I'd heard
there was another EV ford ranger somewhere around here. They didn't look
very impressed with my rig , didn't ask the usual questions ,seem either
people love them or are just indifferent
so I didn't expect any help form them , They both just gave me that long
blank look and for a moment I didn't even think I'd get an answer. "Yep
it's mine " said the guy on the fork lift "follow me" . I followed him back
a few ware houses and there parked at the entrance was a motor/generator
about the size of a semi truck. Bob was in the scraping business and there
where motors and generators everywhere but as we toured the yard I didn't
see
one motor /generator that was small enough for EV use. I did see some
armatures that looked about the size of an 8" in a scrap bin with the ends
burned off but that was it / if you needed a train motor he had one or 6
foot gen from a power plant. I steered him back to the EV after buying
some nice 00 cable 600v at a $1 a lb and finely got the story or part of it
. He'd got the truck thinking that at worst he could put a gas engine back
if it didn't work , it was a 1999 . He said it worked fine when he got it
and was very imprested with the speed and pickup but when he tried to charge
it , it would charge .
Bob went on to say " It has a computer that talks to you and said the
truck is charging but it never gets charged which is also announced by the
computer , The truck only has 11,000 miles on it ". Bob say the Shop manual
is $1800 which he doesn't have.
So where is this truck!!!!!! oooooo "I gave it to this golf cart repair
guy to try to fix it , he's trying to charge the batteries one at a time."
"how long has he had it " I asked ? "5 weeks" Of course I then asked how
much he wanted for it.
any Idea's on what it's worth?
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quoting Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> A little trick might be to use two 36v small 35 to 50 watt dc/dc units.
> Getting power each from half the pack. This will charge your battery.
> Run
> your lights. 4 bucks a piece. Lawrence Rhodes...If they weren't enough
> you
> could use more.........
>
>
Sounds good to me, where could I get 4-5 of these for $4.00 each tho?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I'm looking for an inverter that takes my DC pack voltage (144V DC) and turns it into
240V 50Hz AC (Australian mains current).
The closest I've been able to find is combining a DC/DC (144V -> 12V) with a 12V to
240V inverter.
I want to avoid massive 12V currents (and massive DC/DC) to get a decent amount of
power from the inverter.
Does such a beast exist?
What sort of price?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My personal pages statistics show it work, problem is on your side.
thanks for your link.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: Citroen Saxo pictures online
> Thanks Philippe, but I get server error. May be others are luckier.
>
> Better to use this link:
> http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/b/blingodyna.html
>
> Victor
>
>
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> >
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Saxo.html
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I understand Victor, no problem
Just to inform US EV friends than for now this car is not available in
France, it's another ev snake, like i use to say:
it exist for nobody but media !
same as Ford e-Ka and many other pre-production cars.
Ready but no one want to be the first to open the box !
hopes it will change soon
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Citroen Saxo pictures online
> Sorry, didn't realize it is YOUR Citroen, not just an OEM Citroen.
>
> Victor
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Philippe, but I get server error. May be others are luckier.
> >
> > Better to use this link:
> > http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/b/blingodyna.html
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > Philippe Borges wrote:
> > >
> > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Saxo.html
> > >
> > > Philippe
> > >
> > > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anything less than 10k would be a steal unless the
batteries themselves are bad. If it has NiMH
batteries, and they do take a charge, I would think up
to 20k depending on the condition of the truck itself.
If you don't buy it let me know :)
-Sam
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> .
> > There is a EV in my town that I have heard about
> but not
> > gone to see . Its one bought at an auction from
> one of the power companies
> ,
> > a ford ranger I believe , AC drive and all the
> goodies but it doesn't work
> .
> > What is it worth ? If it's not working not very
> much but if it was a
> > "regular" conversion I'd have been there the day I
> heard about it but as a
> > "factory conversion" I'm almost sure there's
> nothing I could do to get it
> > going . Some day when I have time I'll go look at
> it and may be posting
> > questions but I know how things go ,
>
>
> Friday I just happen to be in the area , I drove
> down a long road called
> industrial av. with big buildings on either side ,
> things didn't look good
> for finding the EV ford hidden somewhere in all
> these where houses. It was
> close to 5 pm so most places looked closed . I saw
> two men talking one on
> a fork lift . I pulled in , ( with my 83 ford ranger
> ev) and said I'd heard
> there was another EV ford ranger somewhere around
> here. They didn't look
> very impressed with my rig , didn't ask the usual
> questions ,seem either
> people love them or are just indifferent
> so I didn't expect any help form them , They both
> just gave me that long
> blank look and for a moment I didn't even think I'd
> get an answer. "Yep
> it's mine " said the guy on the fork lift "follow
> me" . I followed him back
> a few ware houses and there parked at the entrance
> was a motor/generator
> about the size of a semi truck. Bob was in the
> scraping business and there
> where motors and generators everywhere but as we
> toured the yard I didn't
> see
> one motor /generator that was small enough for EV
> use. I did see some
> armatures that looked about the size of an 8" in a
> scrap bin with the ends
> burned off but that was it / if you needed a train
> motor he had one or 6
> foot gen from a power plant. I steered him back to
> the EV after buying
> some nice 00 cable 600v at a $1 a lb and finely got
> the story or part of it
> . He'd got the truck thinking that at worst he could
> put a gas engine back
> if it didn't work , it was a 1999 . He said it
> worked fine when he got it
> and was very imprested with the speed and pickup but
> when he tried to charge
> it , it would charge .
> Bob went on to say " It has a computer that
> talks to you and said the
> truck is charging but it never gets charged which is
> also announced by the
> computer , The truck only has 11,000 miles on it ".
> Bob say the Shop manual
> is $1800 which he doesn't have.
> So where is this truck!!!!!! oooooo "I gave it
> to this golf cart repair
> guy to try to fix it , he's trying to charge the
> batteries one at a time."
> "how long has he had it " I asked ? "5 weeks" Of
> course I then asked how
> much he wanted for it.
> any Idea's on what it's worth?
> Steve Clunn
>
> www.grassrootsev.com
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A new speed record attempt is going to be made.
link to article:
http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/newsarchiveitem.html?id=2795&pos=1
--
Paul Wujek
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an alabi. Gisele, Ken and I took the electric tram to
Granville Island for an hour of shopping so we missed the
electrathon. So I have 2 witnesses. :)
My post yesterday was a little rushed, and I realize that I
missed reporting on some of the real high points of the REV2003
experience.
As we were setting up, wiping the pollen off the Insight and
getting registered, a several electric bikes were cruising
silently around the compound. One that came over to greet us was
piloted by the high school kid who had built it. It had 4 17 Ah
Panasonics and a home made controller. The motor was one of
those E-teks. This guy, I thought, is the future of hobby EV's.
"It's a little faster than the legal limit", he said, "but the
cops don't know that." I'm sorry I did not get his name. There
were several other very impressive home made bikes with their
young drivers gliding around all day. There was a Segway,
apparently, but the owner left early and I missed it. There were
scooters zipping around all day. You had to keep your eyes open
or you'd be run over by some crazed kid on a silent scooter or
for that matter in an RX-7.
Sadly, I missed both electrathon races. For those who don't know
anything about electrathon cars, these are home built one person
(usually a kid) cars that zoom around the track on one battery of
regulation size. The winner is the one with the most laps in one
hour. Some day, maybe, one of those "kids" will be me.
At the Science Centre next door there was a display of fuel cell
technology. I did not get over there at all, but at the end of
the day as we were leaving, the fuel cell bus drove over to the
1912 electric tram for a photo op. I got some pictures of the
Insight in front of this pair of beauties. To bad I wasn't
driving electric.
After the EVent we all met at the Red Dog brewery for a BBQ.
Fill yer mug from a spigot coming right out of the wall. Gotta
get one of those at home, eh? Good beer, good company. The
annual REV EVent is a super one-day holiday. Mark your calendars
for next year. First Saturday in June, I believe.
Mike Hoskinson
Roger Stockton wrote:
Are you sure you didn't happen to poke around the Delta-Q electrathon
car? We're still trying to determine what caused our motor to fry
halfway through the race... ;^> (just kidding you, of course).
Thanks to everyone who was able to make it out to the show, in whatever
capacity: you are what makes this event successful year after year!
Cheers,
Roger.
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would like to do an old truck conversion.
I'm looking at a 1958 - 1959 vintage Chevrolet.
Would like reasonable performance instead of long range.
Is this a good candidate for John Waylands high performance setup?
Here are a few specs I have been able to get.
Chevrolet Model 3104 Stepside Pickup
114" Wheelbase.
6.70-15 Tire Size.
3 speed manual transmission
rear axle ratio of 3.90:1
Weights:
3410# Curb Weight; 2015# Front 1395# Rear
5000# GVW
612# Engine and Clutch
65# Transmission
17.5 gal fuel tank
2" dia exh pipe.
Other possible weight reduction could come with fiberglass body parts.
They offer all parts for this vintage truck, but could become cost
prohibitive.
Just replacing the bed could shed ~ 300#, but at a cost of ~$2000.
Is this vehicle a good choice, bad choice.
I would like to do a pickup and have owned a few of these in the past.
Thought it would be nice to do something different.
I value any opinions or comments.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, this is Ivan Workman. IF it is a Factory Ford
Ranger with Lead Acid Batteries, Running it would sell
for $40,000 New. If it is a TDM Ford Ranger with a
Westinghouse AC Drive, it would have sold for $35,000
new.
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> .
> > There is a EV in my town that I have heard about
> but not
> > gone to see . Its one bought at an auction from
> one of the power companies
> ,
> > a ford ranger I believe , AC drive and all the
> goodies but it doesn't work
> .
> > What is it worth ? If it's not working not very
> much but if it was a
> > "regular" conversion I'd have been there the day I
> heard about it but as a
> > "factory conversion" I'm almost sure there's
> nothing I could do to get it
> > going . Some day when I have time I'll go look at
> it and may be posting
> > questions but I know how things go ,
>
>
> Friday I just happen to be in the area , I drove
> down a long road called
> industrial av. with big buildings on either side ,
> things didn't look good
> for finding the EV ford hidden somewhere in all
> these where houses. It was
> close to 5 pm so most places looked closed . I saw
> two men talking one on
> a fork lift . I pulled in , ( with my 83 ford ranger
> ev) and said I'd heard
> there was another EV ford ranger somewhere around
> here. They didn't look
> very impressed with my rig , didn't ask the usual
> questions ,seem either
> people love them or are just indifferent
> so I didn't expect any help form them , They both
> just gave me that long
> blank look and for a moment I didn't even think I'd
> get an answer. "Yep
> it's mine " said the guy on the fork lift "follow
> me" . I followed him back
> a few ware houses and there parked at the entrance
> was a motor/generator
> about the size of a semi truck. Bob was in the
> scraping business and there
> where motors and generators everywhere but as we
> toured the yard I didn't
> see
> one motor /generator that was small enough for EV
> use. I did see some
> armatures that looked about the size of an 8" in a
> scrap bin with the ends
> burned off but that was it / if you needed a train
> motor he had one or 6
> foot gen from a power plant. I steered him back to
> the EV after buying
> some nice 00 cable 600v at a $1 a lb and finely got
> the story or part of it
> . He'd got the truck thinking that at worst he could
> put a gas engine back
> if it didn't work , it was a 1999 . He said it
> worked fine when he got it
> and was very imprested with the speed and pickup but
> when he tried to charge
> it , it would charge .
> Bob went on to say " It has a computer that
> talks to you and said the
> truck is charging but it never gets charged which is
> also announced by the
> computer , The truck only has 11,000 miles on it ".
> Bob say the Shop manual
> is $1800 which he doesn't have.
> So where is this truck!!!!!! oooooo "I gave it
> to this golf cart repair
> guy to try to fix it , he's trying to charge the
> batteries one at a time."
> "how long has he had it " I asked ? "5 weeks" Of
> course I then asked how
> much he wanted for it.
> any Idea's on what it's worth?
> Steve Clunn
>
> www.grassrootsev.com
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
http://calendar.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm considering doing a 53 chevy pickup conversion. I will be putting
mine in the car shows to maybe peak the interest in some of the people.
It will obviously be in the modified division but I think a very nice
conversion like that would take a whole lot of awards. A Waylandesque
sound system, looks, and performance would be beautiful.
The frame could take a whole lot of optimas since it is so open. There is
so much room to put stuff, you might have trouble filling it up. Consider
shortening the drive shaft and not using a tranny (clears up the floor
board) and putting the motor(s) behind the cab or behind the rear axle and
filling the rest of the space with batteries. The axles and frame are
strong and would be easy to add battery racks to. Smaller wheels to help
keep the RPMs up. Lowered to make the big fenders sit right above the
wheels. Fiberglass box that lifts to show the batteries and motors.
Louvred hood. Zilla 2k at 300V of optimas. Finely polished dash pefectly
matched to the Emeter, speedometer, and stereo face. Leather bench seat
for pulling the wife close just like high school. Tire smoking
restoration project. *drools* If I only had the 25 Grand to do it.
Anybody got 25G to give? :)
I think an old pickup like that would make wonderful vehicle for 10-15
mile trips. Wonderful!
*gets smacked by wife for dreaming*
Eric
> Would like to do an old truck conversion.
> I'm looking at a 1958 - 1959 vintage Chevrolet.
> Would like reasonable performance instead of long range.
> Is this a good candidate for John Waylands high performance setup?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will be interesting to see who does better !
At least there is a date for the Ohio State Run.
http://www.eng.ohio-state.edu/news/coe_news/archives/0210/021010_Bullet.html
Go BUCKS !
Robert Salem
Columbus, OH
> A new speed record attempt is going to be made.
>
> link to article:
>
> http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/newsarchiveitem.html?id=2795&pos=1
>
> --
> Paul Wujek
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Brune wrote:
> Although I completely understand where you got these numbers,
> we need to be clear that this isn't necessarily useable power.
> At the maximum power point the voltage at the terminals would
> be 3.9/2 = 1.95V. From the graphs, I have seen the voltage
> needs to be kept above 2.5V. So in reality you can only get
> (3.9 - 2.5)/8.45mohm = 166A and only 2.5V*166A= 415 W/cell.
That's my understanding as well. With lead-acid, high-current failure
modes are entertaining but not deadly. I'm not so sure with LiIons; they
are capable of causing some impressive explosions or fires. Thunder-Sky
provided some brief test data on failure modes, but I don't want to find
out in my basement or car that they're not telling the whole story!
Thus, I'm going to stay within their upper and lower voltage limits.
> I did do a series discharge of four cells today at 27A. One cell
> had a temp rise of about 30C. The whole block gets pretty warm.
Yes, I'm seeing that too. Notice that the terminal bolts get hotter yet,
indicating that the internal temperature is even higher.
I'm doing some low-current charge and discharge tests now. Preliminary
results are that amphour efficiency is extremely high -- essentially
100%. Capacity is 68.33ah at 4.5 amps (C/20 rate), 67.1 at 27a (C/3
rate); hardly any change at all (no Peukert effect).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:43 AM 6/10/2003 -0700, Lee Hart stated:
Yes, I'm seeing that too. Notice that the terminal bolts get hotter yet,
indicating that the internal temperature is even higher.
Lee, I'm starting to setup my regs with temp sensors.
Do you have any idea what size crimp terminal will take a TO-99 in the wire
hole? (umm, urrgg, not sure if that is the right number. Same package as a
2N2222 transistor.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
