EV Digest 2856
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: wheel motor
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Starting torque
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Meter
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: battery charging
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: battery charging
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: This is a MUST READ LA Times Article
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: battery charging
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: wheel motor
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Wheelmotors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Auranthetic parts
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) New Yahoo Group for Evercel Nichel-Zinc Batteries
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: battery charging
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: battery charging
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: battery charging
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Evercel MB80 cycling
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Evercel MB80 cycling
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Auranthetic parts
by "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Why did the Optimas explode?
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Most of the centripetal effect belt and moving sheave design CVTs that
use V-belts are not known for being anything like efficient. Van Doorne
laminated metal push belt CVTs are better but uncommon and expensive and
unnecessary, in my opinion, for an electric motor.
>From what I have seen in *conventional* transmissions, there is a fixed
torque loss at low load, so the best way to increase efficiency is to
slow the input shaft and increase the input torque. Or reduce the size
of the transmission. So 4 e-teks driving into one transmission could be
better than 4 driving their own transmission. But with specially
designed units, you might do better.
Seth
Sam Harper wrote:
>
> >> I agree, but isnt the problem with Lemco sized motors tied directly to
> >> wheels is that they lack a torque range capable of accelerating a car
> >> with any speed. Since a CVT is continuously variable you can keep the
> >> electric motor at its highest power output level for an infinite
> >> amount
> >> of time by simply changing the gearing as you accelerate. When
> >> cruising, simply change the gearing so that the motor is at the most
> >> efficient point. Am I wrong?
> >
> > No, the problem is that a single Lemco isn't powerful enough for
> > anything other than a motorcycle or very small (or very slow) car.
> Wait - I have been talking about using two or four motor/controller/CVT
> combinations, not one. And I'm not speaking of the older Lemcos, I
> mean the new 2x2s that are producing 22kw
> > Adding a CVT will rob you of nearly half the Lemco's power making it
> > even less suitable.
> Where did you come up with this statistic? CVTs are much better than
> automatic transmissions due to the improvement/elimination of the
> torque converter. You get much less slip. I don't mean pull a CVT
> from a Honda Insight, but use a smaller - lighter duty one from an ATV.
> You can ever get performance improvement kits, such as this:
> http://www.atving.com/editor/review/accessory/hotseat/clutch.htm.
> >
> > Even you are using the Lemco in a vehicle where it's not powerful
> > enough
> > for a single speed transmission, then use a manual multispeed
> > transmission. However you will STILL be limited by how much power it
> > can produce. A single Lemco-200 in a 3,000 lb EV will be fine as a
> > parking lot cruiser but will never make it to highway speed, regardless
> > of transmission.
> Note that none of my initial discussion ever said one Lemco. It said
> two, or four.
>
> -Sam Harper
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Hudson wrote:
>
> I went ahead and set up a Yahoo Group for discussion of Evercel NiZn battery
> technology with an emphasis on EV applications. I belong to a similar group
> for Saft NiCds and it's great for focusing on just that technology -- Not a
> lot of traffic on that list but when a question comes up, people respond
> very quickly -- No "noise" from non-NiCd traffic. This is not a "snub" to
> the EV List, but a way for those of us looking at NiZn technology to have a
> dedicated discussion area.
>
> Since the Evercel technology is relatively new, and some of us are working
> them into existing EVs I think this group will be a good way for all of us
> to share info, ideas and solve problems.
>
> To join the group, go to:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Evercel-EV
>
> I hope to see you there.
>
> -Tom
>
> Thomas Hudson
> http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
> http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
> http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
> http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
NO Damit !! keep it here on the EV list for all to See!!
I don't do Yahoo, I get enough Spam already.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> >An AC induction motor has Torque = Current^1. You only get high torque
> >with high current.
>
> Unlike the series-wound, the induction torque tops out at
> saturation of the rotor. Aside from plasma or motor grenade, there is no
> upper limit to the torque of a series-wound.
I would beg to differ with this. This is not quite true. The comm and
the brushes frag and vaporize before Mag sat gets really bad.
Industral AC servo drives twist thier output safts off if commanded max
torque without some limits.
>
> >Thus, the AC inverter is going to need something like 6 times the
> >silicon to match an equivalent series motor. Possible; but expensive!
Not so. Youa are assuming a lot about both motors.
>
> Holy mackerel! You finally came around on this. I guess those 50
> posts I made convinced in the end. :^)
>
Having my feet in both camps here, says you all are not seeing the whole
argument.
> >But for drag racing, efficiency per se is not all that important. You're
> >only going to be racing for a matter of seconds. The series DC motor and
> >PWM controller is only 50% efficient under these conditions. So your AC
> >drive doesn't have to be 90% efficient; even 60% will do.
First the Series Buck converter is better than %98 at it's current
limits. Darn near all the Zorch gets to the copper and steel.
What the copper and Steel motor do with it is a major issue.
Bill and the DC crowd are VERY concerned about the efficiency. We have
limited amps and volts from a limited battery source. What we can do
with it is
What Ev racing is all about. Some numbers show that the total watts
delivered the the motor and the total HP delivered to the Chassis in
draw bar Horse Power is under %50.
I am not sure what Yours is Bill, but I bet you do. This is where Dumb
Ass old DC brushed motors can be really improved. They can be pushed a
lot harder easier that a AC drive because the controllers are simpler
and Contactors are cheap and affordable. I think, I still don't have the
dyno curves, that a single 8 incher in Bill's bike with no real mods can
out perform his twin motors. Lighter, no second chain, and a bigger
Diam comm let you get more shaft force with less Amps. With a 2000 amp
controller, No series parallel shanagins needed!! Just get your brush
timing right at both ends of the track. This doesn't scale to the 9
incher for some reason. Twin 6.7s are 82 lbs each, heavier than a 9.
A 8 is 103 lbs.
>
> Actually, you are very concerned with efficiency in a drag racing
> EV (unlike and ICE.) Poor efficiency translates directly to pack weight and
> lower HP. You don't mind a slight reduction in efficiency off the line for
> less than a second, but you certainly care very much as the vehicle goes
> down the track.
Yer Damn straight about this!! If the DC world only has a monopoly on
the first second, AC drives are the coming thing. Dc can be "Woken up"
at the far end and AC induction can make as much or more shaft torque on
the slow end "IF the inverters and control" let it happen.
Ya wanna bang on field coils and brushes or hack Vector control
software??? Your choice.
And by the way Bill and team are the only ones doing both.
Well maybe me also, but I don't have a record setter in the drive way
anymore.
>
> If I were to go from, say, 80% down to 60% efficiency, the bike
> would go much, much slower. The HP would be reduced by 33% and/or the
> weight of the battery pack would go up 33%. For my old TMF pack, this would
> have meant going from 135 pounds to 180 pounds or dropping the HP from 300
> down to 200. This would put the bike in the high 10's instead of the low 9's.
Bill I think you are maybe %30 off the line %50 in the 1/8 and maybe %60
at the traps. In a weekend you can change that by %10 at all places.
Dennis is going to go sub 10s on SVRs, in like weeks. Maybe another rail
might get there also. Your bike shoulda been there last summer.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
Oh sorry I forgot we all have real lives oytsdie of racing Evs, Except
for someone in Phoenix, he has a obsession.
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James
I saw the meter a while back and the electronic part is no big deal. the web
site gave plenty of details . First you need the two meter setup which is
used in ham radio transmitters . Or you could mount two meters in a box . do
you understand how to make a volt meter from a ma amp meter? lets talk in
120 volt terms (or what ever you like) . You want the meter to be full on at
150v and full off at 105 , so meter needs to see 45v to full scale ( we'll
talk about the other meter later) . You must next find out how many ma amps
your meter will take to go full scale .Hook a ma amp meter in series with a
variable power supply and turn it up slowly till it reads full scale them
see what is the ma amps , lets say it's 1 ma . use Ohms law 45/.001 =R
45k , you'll need a 45k resistor , but that's not all , you also need to
drop that 105 volts which you do with a 105v ( 5 20v and 1 5v in series)
zenar diodes . Lets see what other's say on this .Feel free to call me on
my cell after 8.00 ( cheaper then) 772-971-0533. or try any time at home
(daughter on this phone most of the time) at 772-465-1982
that's the volt meter end next is the amp meter.
Steve Clunn.
> You know,
>
> I REALLY like this idea. This is something simple but really useful. I'm
not
> an electrical engineer (not by a long shot) but I think I could really get
some
> use out of something like this.
>
> Any of the EE's on this list intersted in a little joint project with a
newbie
> to make one of these for my car?
>
> James
>
> Quoting Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > > At 12:18 AM 6/15/2003 -0700, Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > At one time, someone on this list described an interesting and simple
> >
> > > SOC meter that gave useful results. It was 2 Analog meters, one for
> > > current, one for voltage, pointed at each other in the same case....
> >
> > yea. he's here in ABQ...
> >
> > http://www.qsl.net//k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
> > --
> > Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
> > Albuquerque, NM |
> > aaron_at_birenboim.com |
> > >http://aaron.boim.com |
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Garry
>
> I've charged my share of batteries, but never this many together at once.
it's kind of the same just more . We are talking lead acid right?
> My mobility scooter is charged when the battery amp draw goes down to
under
> 5 amps on an 8 amp charger but I was concerned that this was not
necessarily
> so on a larger pack.
Lots of things effect that amp while charging and you really need to see
both amp and volts. Let's talk 12v ( you can time's it by 6 for 72v)
Your charger's amps probable drops as the voltage goes up . Think of you
batterie as a bottle with a big bottom and a long neck that get's smaller
and smaller as you go towrds the top. As you start filling the bottle the
water(electrons) will rise slowly at first as the bottom is big .Once you
start getting close to the neck (and this bottle has a long neck) the bottle
starts filling faster , You'll notice the voltage will start rising faster
at the end of the charge after about 13.7v ( this also changes with the amps
your charger puts out) . I have not seen two batterie packs act this same
yet , I have to get to know them and they change with age. Now you bottle
when it get old it leaks and you have to fill it longer to make up for the
leaking . If you don't have a PFC-20 or somthing that can keep pumping even
when the voltage starts going up your old "bottle " may never get full as
the water leaks out as fast as you put it in .
> I believe the batteries are 135 amp hour but they are the same weight and
a
> little larger than t105's.
that is a 6v or a 12v bat, 135ah would be a small golf cart batterie ( 220
or 240 is usual) I am thinking these are 12v
> Their normal use is for emergency lighting and computer back up systems
> rather than high drain like an ev, but at $10 each instead of $175 each
they
> are better than nothing and have worked quite well on my toer over the
last
> few months.
sealed ? 12v?
That's 175 for a 6v golf cart flooded bat?
Not many golfer's there hu.
> As this is a forklift charger my guess is it is set to give a full charge
> when the forklift is drained and I assumed that an 11 hour cycle with a 30
> amp rating would be to charge 300 odd amp hours of batteries but of course
> the amps fall off so maybe it only had a 150 amp hour set like the toer
> which is from a similar era.
If you understand this then you would seen to understand batteries pretty
well . I don't see how you missed the 15v = charged part
Flattish means it was still going but not accelerating in the higher gears,
> it seems to have some protection built in and when getting flat it will
cut
> out in top gear and then eventually in 3rd gear and when this first
happened
> it didn't have the power to get the wheels over a little rise at the door
> without a push.
What I tell new ev drivers is that the charge in the batterie is like oil in
the engien. Things are fine as long as you got 1/2 or more but once you've
taken out 1/2 the ware on the parts starts going up . Driving it till it
starts losing power gas or electric is hard on them. If you got a volt meter
and see 10.5v with a light ( crusing) load your almost out of oil . Yes it
will run for a while but your out of oil .
> Because these have gone flat while sitting I thought that charging for a
few
> hours and then running down and charging again would be a quick way to get
> the batteries evened out and working as a string, but this time around im
> going to let them go to below 5 amps cause I want to get some idea of
range.
That a little like taking an old engien and putting in a 1/2 quart them
running till its empty and repeating this isn't going to help.
> After 4 hours this time they are now below 10 amps and today I will give
> them another couple of hours and once I establish what the charge time is
I
> will reset the charger to run for this time rather than leaving it and
> hoping fro the best.
I would put the charger on and then watch the voltage on the batteries , as
each one hits 15v put a light bulb or two on it till the last one is charged
, this way you won't over charge them but also get them all charged . You
could also find the lowes on (voltage) and put a small charger on just that
one while charging them ( a small 12v batterie charger ) .write down a list
with all the batteries voltage before and after charging ect so you can know
which one's are the good ones.
> Garry Stanley
>
> Cable.net.nz
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Would you mind sharing a URL for the NiCd group? I didn't manage
> to find it.
Tha Saft group info (including archive) can be found at:
http://lists.evcl.com/listinfo.cgi/saft-evcl.com
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> NO Damit !! keep it here on the EV list for all to See!!
> I don't do Yahoo, I get enough Spam already.
Tell you what, I'll post my stuff to both the Yahoo list and here, when
appropriate. Makes sense; I typically do that with my posts to the
Solectria Force list.
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it is better to put NiZn items on the EV List.
Actually the EV List bandwidth is a lot less that in
previous years. If you feel there is just too much to
wade through, perhaps you are viewing the EV List wrong.
Instead of getting a ton of individual POSTs, or having
to serially go through a bunch of digests, I archive
the individual POSTs on a yahoo group
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/messages
Now, without subscribing, you can read the POSTs without
receiving the messages, digests, or spam (its web page
accessible, no subscribing needed). You can even use
keywords to select only the POSTs you want.
I see that the Evercell group is closed to the public (only
members can view POSTs). I do not set my groups this way.
I set all my groups so POSTs can ge viewed and found by the
search engines. Making EV information available to the public
encourages others to learn about EVs. For every person that
does POST, there are ten that lurk (read only - quiet mode).
They read our POSTs to learn.
...
I feel NiZn is a nice step up, but if I upgrade to a 'better
battery' I want to two steps better. From NiZn, by passing
NiMH, and going straight to Li-ion.
That is why I am happy to see Li-ion discussions on the EV
List and hope it stays there. I hope the EV List knows that
there are active lurkers and delayed lurkers (people that
bring print-offs of the EV List to their EV groups) that
are excited with all the Li-ion information and excitement.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary,
could you remind the List and tell us?
-what type batteries you have?
-what pack voltage you have?
-what type of outlet do you charge from?
-what charger do you have, and what voltage is it set for?
-when it tapers to 20 amps what is the pack's surface voltage?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Already POSTed
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/3071
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll admit, specialized battery chemistries are a limited-interest item, and
sometimes the discussion can get lost in the clutter of the main EV list.
There are also those who, for one reason or another, simply prefer not to
use the EV list. If you look at the names on archived posts from 5 years
ago and compare them to the names you see now, you'll understand. These
people are still active in the EV field, and some of them are highly
knowledgable and experienced, but they've stopped reading and/or posting to
this list.
Some of these folks are apt to be more willing to post and respond on a more
specialized, lower traffic list. So I think there's merit in posting more
general-interest material here, and posting other more specialized material
on a specialized list for NiZn (or whatever).
That said, I agree with those who prefer to avoid Yahoo. I would rather see
special-interest lists hosted on private, non-commercial list servers
whenever possible. They're are harder for the spammers to harvest from,
don't accumulate personal and web browsing information from the users, and
don't have delivering ads as their primary purpose.
I still maintain a Yahoo email account as a last-resort backup, and for some
specialized needs, but I've moved most of my email activity onto private
servers over the last year.
I'm well aware that there are those on this list who aren't bothered by the
ads. Sorry, no offense meant, but I believe we're exposed to far too many
commercial messages already. IMO, ad-blocking software isn't really an
answer, because it treats the symptom instead of the disease. Again,
though, there's a lot of opinion involved here. I don't want to start a
flame war, I'm just explaining my position and I acknowledge that other
positions exist.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me add my voice to the others who would prefer to read
about NiZn batteries here on this list instead of in a Yahoo!
group. NiZn batteries is one of my favorite topics on this list
and I'd hate to see it go.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Jun 2003 at 0:47, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> So I think there's merit in posting more
> general-interest material here, and posting other more specialized material
> on a specialized list for NiZn (or whatever).
>
Just to be 100% clear here, I mean that most general interest topics on
specialized chemistries (NiZn, nicad, LIon) should probably be discussed
here, with the separate lists reserved for the real nuts and bolts stuff. I
learn a lot from this list, and I'm sure others do too, and I'd hate to see
it splinter too much.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To get it full, charge it until the amps stop falling or the voltage stops
climbing. Read your meters every 10 to 15 minutes.
Starting with a discharged battery, start recording the time, volts and amps
every 10 to 15 minutes.
Initially the current should remain stable and the voltage will rise.
When the voltage reaches the Acceptance limit, the voltage will remain
relatively constant and the current will drop.
If you plot the data on a chart, the current drop over ampere hours will be
linear.
If the charger voltage is too high the slope will be concave looking from
the top and the end current will be too high. Normal is 1% of the battery
capacity.
I you measure the data and post it on the list, I can plot it and interpret
it for you.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: battery charging
> After 4 hours this time they are now below 10 amps and today I will give
> them another couple of hours and once I establish what the charge time is
I
> will reset the charger to run for this time rather than leaving it and
> hoping fro the best.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > No, the problem is that a single Lemco isn't powerful enough for
> > anything other than a motorcycle or very small (or very slow) car.
> Wait - I have been talking about using two or four motor/controller/CVT
> combinations, not one. And I'm not speaking of the older Lemcos, I
> mean the new 2x2s that are producing 22kw
If you have 4 of them (88kw) then you have PLENTY of torque, run them
though a fixed reduction and be done with it. If you run them through
CVTs and loose 1/2 your power you also loose torque at your upper RPM
range where you need it for high speed..
> > Adding a CVT will rob you of nearly half the Lemco's power making it
> > even less suitable.
> Where did you come up with this statistic? CVTs are much better than
> automatic transmissions due to the improvement/elimination of the
> torque converter. You get much less slip. I don't mean pull a CVT
> from a Honda Insight, but use a smaller - lighter duty one from an ATV.
LOL. Actually the Insight CVT is pretty good (for a CVT). The belt
drive CVTs, like they use in ATVs. is what I've been talking about. A
belt drive CVT approaches 90% efficient...at a 1:1 ratio. At anything
other than 1:1 the efficiency drops off.
Now for highway speed you'll want about a 4:1 reduction between the
motor and the wheels, at start up you'll want something closer to 12 or
15:1. At this point efficiency sucks (<50%). Now you can improve this
efficiency a bit. Normally they run the CVT at 1:1 for high speed
operation and use a fixed gear reduction to give them the 4:1 reduction
they need. Now your efficiency at highway speeds is 98% (gears) * 90%
(CVT) = 88%, and that's your BEST efficiency. For low speed your CVT is
going to be at 3 or 4:1. I forget the exact figure for belt driven CVT
efficiency at this point, but I think it's around 70%.
So let's review at startup (low speed) our choices are:
Single speed gear reduction = 98%
Belt driven CVT = 50%
combo gear and CVT = 70%
At highway speed:
Gear = 98%
CVT = 70%
Combo = 88%
Now I don't have any charts for this particular motor (it's basically
two LEM-200s on the same shaft right?), but let's assume the torque
curves are similar to the LEM-200.
Let's say that you are driving around at low speed and only need about
1kw from the motor. Depending on the RPM efficiency will be somewhere
around 80% +or- 5%. Motor is turning slow and voltage across it is low.
Now let's use our CVT. Motor is spinning fast (that's the point of the
CVT right?) which means high voltage but low current. Believe it or not
this is where the LEMCO really sucks. Efficiency at high voltage/low
current can drop to 10% or less.
So the CVT hits you with a double whammy of poor efficiency. So how do
you fix this? Simple run the CVT up so the motor runs slow at slow
speed (kinda like not having the CVT) Now the motor is running at the
same speed as it would be without the cvt so it's efficiency improves,
but you're loosing at least 10% going through the CVT.
So the CVT doesn't help at high speeds (costs you at least 10%) doesn't
help at low speeds (costs you 10-90%). Where DOES it help?
Maybe for quick starts, hmm? Ok let's assume the car is accelerating at
the maximum rate possible and take a look at our charts as the car hits
5mph.
4 each of these 2x2s with a fixed 4:1 reduction will be spinning at
about 400 rpm. These motors can produce roughly 13kw or 920 ft-lbs of
torque at the wheels (Current limited). Motor efficiency at this point
is about 48% * 98% for the gears = 47% from batteries to wheels (eew)
Using our combo gear/CVT we can run the motor at a higher RPM and
therefor produce more power. Assuming a 4:1 CVT reduction with a 4:1
gear reduction the motor will be running at 1600 rpm. Power will be
about 42kw from the motors (I'm assuming the CVTs can handle this), the
CVTs are running at about 70% * 98%(gears) so about 29kw makes it to the
wheels. So yes we get about twice the torque for accelerating (at low
speeds, this drops off at high speeds and ends up with less available
torque at highway speeds), but it costs us efficiency. Even though we
are keeping the motor at a higher efficiency point, the CVT is costing
us more that we are gaining. Total pack to wheel efficiency drops to
42% (motors are running 65% at this power level).
It's important to note that this is the ONLY time the CVT proves useful,
high power acceleration. For this you loose at >10% of your range over
going with a straight single reduction ratio.
It's even more important to note that a multispeed transmission can give
us even MORE acceleration AND high efficiency than either of these
setups. Torque can be 4x that of a single gear, and efficiency goes
from 42-47% to >60%
Switching to a multispeed manual transmission can improve our range by
about 50% or more. In fact with a multispeed transmission you could get
roughly the same performance as the CVT with only two motors instead of
4. Efficiency goes up even more and acceleration is roughly the same.
No matter how you slice it, adding a CVT to an electric drive train
costs you efficiency, which means less range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> #9-5389 -- Parker Wheel motor w. brake, 266 rpm at 20 gpm...
>> #9-3557 -- Ross wheel motor, 252 rpm at 20 gpm...
Gordon Niessen wrote:
> I guess you are looking at either really big wheels or some
> sort of gearing to get to rpm's to convert to 55mph.
You're right; 250 rpm with a 2-foot diameter tire is about 18 mph. These
aren't the wheel motors you'd use at 55 mph. These are just examples
that are easily available because they are used in mass-produced
products; probably in things like Bobcats or fork lifts.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A simple web search show many links to explore
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Auranthetic
Any owner you find might know. I know the EAA historian
drives one. Contact him (http://eaaev.org , click EAA
board, use link to send email).
...
A little personal ancient history:
After the Vietnam War (circa 1974), I was out of
the military, and I needed transportation to go
to College, then work at night, return home to
catch some zzz's ... repeat.
My budget and research gave me a choice.
Either a small Homda Trail 50 (ICE) or an
Auranthetic Electric mini bike.
In my 20's I was slimmer then, but still way tall
(6' 6"). In either case I was going to look gangly on
the cycle (long legs and knees sticking out).
I choose the Electric (an EV addict's first taste).
had always wanted to drive Electric. I think this was
I developed my fast charging abilities as well.
I had mounted the transformer from a 12 VDC car battery
charger on the back seat rack. I changed the wiring to
double the voltage and pump 40 amps into the two
12 V group 27 deep cycle wet cells.
I was able to get an 80% charge with in my class time,
so I could drive across town to work.
This was a special Auranthetic. I had an extra motor
welded and geared, so that instead of going 18 mph
with a 35 mile range, I went 35 mph with a 18 mile
range. Faster with less range.
Since this during the 70's, cars were being sold in
two odd colors: awful-orange or gremlin-green. My
Auranthetic frame was orange. Going down the road
with me on it, ... was quite a sight :-o
I had a a lot of fun with that Ebike, but years later
when parts were no where to be found (I could not find
replacement spokes), I had to shed a tear and kiss my
Ebike goodbye.
It wasn't until 15 years later, that I could spend
some money on myself, did I get my Blazer EV.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"I went ahead and set up a Yahoo Group for discussion of Evercel NiZn battery
technology with an emphasis on EV applications."
My initial reaction to the EVBMS list was negative since I couldn't
imagine where it would end up. It looked like a club, but reading it
proved that it was a narrow topic range and intense exchange. The NiZn
topic is interesting and a 'great white hope' with a modest amount of
traffic (less than 3 Megs in a year of interesting conversation, but
including graphs and data) isn't that much. I'll never buy one, but I
think EV people need to be up to date on the state of this art.
"I belong to a similar group
for Saft NiCds and it's great for focusing on just that technology -- Not a
lot of traffic on that list but when a question comes up, people respond
very quickly --"
My reaction is the same except that NiCad is a proven technology and
just has different ways to murder the pack
"No "noise" from non-NiCd traffic. This is not a "snub" to
the EV List, but a way for those of us looking at NiZn technology to have a
dedicated discussion area."
If there were a battery development program, sure, but the traffic is
simply test/experience on an existing product and defining usability
of the product.
"Since the Evercel technology is relatively new, and some of us are working
them into existing EVs I think this group will be a good way for all of us
to share info, ideas and solve problems."
Not having the experience of "working them into existing EVs" in the
current EV discussion list is counter productive.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes all lead acid ..sealed
They are 6 volt batteries made up of three 2 volt cells and while I don't
know how the 135 amp hour rate is calculated that's all I can find on the
web site.
Yeah $175 for a cheap golf cart battery and they go up to $250 each.
I like your engine oil scenario, the only reason I partly charger them the
first time is that I didn't want to damage any by overcharging some that
might be higher than others.
I have noticed in earlier motor experiments that batteries that have a
higher charge seem to discharge faster when running than those with lesser
charge in them.
I love the light bulb idea too so simple and efficient I will be doing this
tomorrow for sure.
Unfortunately im no longer expecting a good result from these as I spotted
something on the side of one today that I hadn't seen before, it said
replacement battery 23 12 91 and looks like it may have been a warranty
replacement which means these batteries could all be 12 or 13 years old.
Still $10 each wasn't too bad.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
I have sealed lead acid batteries, they are 6 volt made up of three 2 volt
cells, each with individual terminals.
My pack voltage is 72 volts ( 12 batteries).
I charge from a 240 volt 10 amp power source.
The charger is the original forklift charger rated 240 volts 30 amps, on the
high setting (normal) it pumps out 30 amps at 93 volts and on low (equalize)
it pumps out 10 amps at 79 volts.
I have not measured the pack voltage while charging but I will next time
around, as well as following Steve's advice to measure each batteries
voltage separately as the pack is charging.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanx Joe,
I will try and get this info on the next charge.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the urging of the company, and with some help from Roger Stockton, I
have begun cycling my MB80's prior to getting them into the car. I've
lashed up a spare eMeter, shunt, 3 replacement headlights (soon to be
augmented by some 12volt "RV" bulbs with a regular screw in base), and
one of the pair of Sorensen 20 volt/30amp power supplies I acquired off
of eBay. Right now this rig is running "manually" but I am well along
adding relays and trim pots (to program the Sorensen) which will be
under the control of a java powered TINI. The TINI will start and
terminate the discharge, start and terminate the charge, and monitor
volts, amps, and temps. I may also get it accurately measuring internal
resistance of each battery it visits.
Lee answered my query of last week on how to calculate internal
resistance. While I don't yet have two flavors of discharge load. I
used 0 amps and the resting voltage, and my present 3 headlights at 8.3
amps. This gave me 5.5 milliOhms. And yes, I realize the surface
charge throws this off.
I was delighted that the first discharge at ~8amps gave me 691
amphours. It is charging up now at Evercels recommended 11amp CC
charge. I don't yet have the temp sensors on, but at this weak drain my
calibrated palms registered the battery stayed pretty much at ambient.
Once I get some baseline data and the temp sensors I may venture to the
threshold of Rudman-esque charging levels to see what they can take. I
have two "spare" batts for ummmm, "experiments".
Tom Hudson and Ed Thorpe have asked a bunch of questions about the
batteries. At this moment the most useful factoids are that the MB80 is
6.75" wide (not the 5 and change listed on the spec sheet), and they
weigh 38 pounds (not the 36.4 listed on the spec sheet.) Tom
tentatively started an Evercel group at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
although there is a howl of protest from some who dont' like Yahoo and
prefer the discussion remains here on the EVDL. I've copied this to
that group and would still be in favor of a repository of our acquired
knowledge which may get a little granular for the
EVDL.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops make that 69.1 amphours. I have a 50amp/50mv shunt which makes the
readings on the eMeter 10x actual. 691 amp hours out of this little package
would have been fine indeed! BTW this was down to the 9.6 volt shutoff
recommended at this drain rate. 7.6 volts is the recommended cutoff for EV
style amperages. My next discharge will be at 20 amps and I may go all the
way up to a staggering 32 amps to get some idea of Peukert.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For information on Auranthetics,
http://www.econogics.com/ev/auranthe.htm
Per the Parts Locator on that page, recommend you contact Brad Richelson for
Auranthetic parts.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Darryl McMahon
Date sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 13:53:41 -0400
Subject: Auranthetic parts
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Anyone know where I can get a keyswitch and a meter for the Auranthetic?
>
> A friend dropped one by for me to fix up and I got it running again. It's
> a blast to ride. I'm using a temporary keyswitch but would like something
> closer to the original. The original meter is shot, rusted and has been
> painted over, so I need to find another one of those.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chip Gribben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to be so late on this reply. I've been away from easy net
access.
Ken had no regulators at the time of the explosions. He had
bought some used Powercheques (sp?) but despite carefully
following the installation instructions, they all burned out pop,
pop, pop when he first hooked them up. Sort of a downer, at the
time, and no warranty; he had bought them used. I asked him why
he had not gone Rudman; he said they looked unfinished, (i.e., no
case) like someone had built them in a garage. Joke's on him.
Bunch of money down the drain, and batteries blown up in the
bargain. Heck, one of my rudman regs popped once; it was
replaced promptly. Rich stands by his products.
I have no connection to Rudman except that I let the smoke out of
some of his stuff. (and bought some that keeps its smoke bottled up).
Mike Hoskinson
Rich Rudman wrote:
Timothy Humphrey wrote:
Two thoughts...
1. I thought Optima's were not supposed to gas, thus there should
be no hydrogen present in the battery box. Was a regulator system
used?
2. Possibly if no regulator system was used the Optimas did gas;
thus lowering the liquid level inside the battery, (I know with
AGM liquid is not really a proper term). Possibly low enough to
cause the plates to be exposed to a very hydrogen rich atmosphere,
especially right off from charge. Then driving (i.e. pulling big
amps) would turn the intercell connections (now dry) into big
heaters/ignitors, or maybe causing a plate to plate spark.
I'm not a battery engineer, the above is pure speculation.
Stay Charged! anyway
Hump
Same thought thread I had.
YTs Gas. Lead acid chemistry requiers it. But they recombine the H2 and
02. If there is is too much pressure the vent. Hence VRLA or Valve
regulated lead acid.
Dry plates and big amps is most likely right.
There should be a plug here for adjustable voltage regulated chargers
and battery regulators. And remote voltage monitors and displays.
does he have the proper charger for 72 volts???? This level of over
charge is kinda hard to fathom with anything even close to correct.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
.
--- End Message ---
