EV Digest 3246
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Newest electric addition
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 70 MPH Stealth ( Charger & Reset Hack )
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Newest electric addition
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newest electric addition
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Optima YT short circuit amps and seconds
by George Tylinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: fu...ing tree hugger.
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: fu...ing tree hugger.
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: fu...ing tree hugger.
by Kris Kirby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Tango at LA Auto Show/New Brochure
by RickWoodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: fu...ing tree hugger.
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Newest electric addition
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Tango at LA Auto Show/New Brochure
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Filter Caps on battery chargers
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Tango at LA Auto Show/New Brochure
by Christian Kocmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT: Diesel Question
by Christian Kocmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Mike's electric adventure
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OT: Diesel Question
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Newest electric addition
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Mike's electric adventure
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Newest electric addition
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Mike's electric adventure
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Mike's electric adventure
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: OT: Diesel Question
by Harmon Seaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Mike's electric adventure
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I just finished tearing out the wiring harness in the 4-wheeler powerwheels
we got in order to track down a power loss. It has a feature I never would
have expected in a cheapie kids EV...resistive braking. When released, the
footswitch connects the PM motors across a braking resistor. Might be able
to turn this into regen with some effort.
Actually, the problem turned out to be, I think, a bad bearing in one of the
motors.
Anyway, it should be a simple matter to make a new harness to rearrange the
motors in series/parallel instead of the batteries. All I need is the
existing switches. Then I can use the same batteries in each.
Chris, have you ordered that Z2K for yours yet? :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 12/27/2003 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Newest electric addition
Chris Zach wrote:
>
> Well, today I was on my way to the dump, and met a guy with a
> Fischer-Price Barbie Power Wheels car. "Doesn't work anymore". Mmmmhm.
A
> quick swap and it was in my van...
>
> Took it home and cleaned it up. Took out the totally dead Fischer
Price
> 12volt 10ah pack and replaced it with a 26ah Hawker Genesis with a
30amp
> fuse. Cleaned it up, and off it went.
>
> The Hawker is the right battery for the job: After running around the
> yard all afternoon it was nowhere near dead. This model however has
the
> battery in the back which with the kids makes the front somewhat
light.
> I have a pair of 12ah batteries in the front now as ballast; might
wire
> them into the main pack for even more range.
>
> The car has two motors, one on each rear wheel. The controls are a
> fairly basic. When the pedal is down, the car either runs in R, D1
(both
> motors in series with the battery) and D2 (both motors in parallel
with
> the battery).
>
> The problem with this of course is that in D1 (which is what you want
in
> the yard) the motors run in series. Thus when one motor loads up,
power
> goes to the other one. Thus if you get stuck it behaves like a very
bad
> differential, putting all the power on the spinning wheel (and you go
> nowhere). D2 fixes this, but the car runs too fast.
>
> So what should I use to slow this thing down properly.
You could use a little Ebike PWM controller. That would be a high-tech
solution, a little expensive, but it would work well.
Can you tap the battery? Connect a wire from the center connection of
the two motors in series to the center tap of the battery to force 6v
per motor.
You could also rig a pair of resistors and relays, so in the series
position, if the voltage on one motor gets too high, the relay pulls in
n and connects the resistor across that motor.
> Second question: Would it be worth it to wire a 12 volt contactor to
> handle the switching load the pedal switch now handles? Do people make
> contactors that are SPDT?
Sure. At only 12v, any automotive relay will work. There is a standard
12v 40amp SPDT automotive relay made by several manufacturers.
> Third question: Does anyone have a spare Magnecharger port and box? I
> would like to install a MC system into this thing so I can charge it
> using the very safe paddle charger. Another option might be a LiOH
> battery system to save on weight :-)
Oh, of course you need a Magnecharger to be safe. Especially with kids
doing the charging! (yeah, right :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Lee Hart mentioned how to do this. If you search the archieves you
should find it. The only problem is that you lose all saved data if you
disconnect the 12v battery. However if you don't you will get a system
error because the computer won't know where the extra charge came from.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: 70 MPH Stealth ( Charger & Reset Hack )
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > As far as the Prius as a pure electric...... Right now you can charge
the
> > pack, reset the system and drive it as pure electric.... Right now.
It's a
> > bit of a hassle & you only get a few miles but it just requires charging
and
> > pulling a fuse and then reinserting it. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
> Could you provide technical details as to this process!
> What was used to charge? Where do you connect to the battery pack?
> What fuse# is pulled, and what exactly does the 'reset' accomplish.
>
> I could speculate on these points, but would rather have a solid
> reference from someone who has successfully performed this hack.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just finished tearing out the wiring harness in the 4-wheeler powerwheels
we got in order to track down a power loss. It has a feature I never would
have expected in a cheapie kids EV...resistive braking. When released, the
footswitch connects the PM motors across a braking resistor. Might be able
to turn this into regen with some effort.
Yeah, I noticed that on my Power Wheel. I assumed actually that it
simply shorted the motors to themselves (a-la the Electrak's mower blade
brake trick); does it have a resistor in there somewhere? Is there an
overload circuit in there as well?
Given that I would *not* recommend regen on brake. Watching my kids with
the power wheels I have noticed that there is no other braking system.
And on the Prizm, when the pack is full (or nearly so) you don't get any
regen to speak of when you brake. Thus your power wheel will have no
brakes until the battery is burned down a bit. Exceptionally bad.
Besides, since the thing is a PM motor, you get regen anyway when you go
down a hill. Kind of like the E10, E12 series tractors; a PM motor can
always do regen on decel.
Another note: On our power wheel, one can fit a Hawker Genesis 26ah
battery *perfectly* in between the motors in the rear. I have a pair of
10ah batteries in the front now for ballast; am considering wiring them
into the system with a set of soleniods so they can act as a "get home
battery" if the Hawker is ever run down.
Given that the original batteries in this thing was a 9ah pack this
gives one four+ times the range.
Anyway, it should be a simple matter to make a new harness to rearrange the
motors in series/parallel instead of the batteries. All I need is the
existing switches. Then I can use the same batteries in each.
*nod* That's how speed control works on this one. Speed 1 is both motors
running in series; speed 2 is both in parallel. Speed 1 isn't bad, but
you can get stuck. On speed 2 it seems to go thru anything.
After watching the kids I think it works well enough. Tapping the
battery would give one more power in speed 1, but speed 2 seems to be
fine for power. For now :-)
Chris, have you ordered that Z2K for yours yet? :-)
*nod* I do need a reasonable charge port. Don't know if I could get a MC
port and logic; I might have to settle for Avcon. Still, I feel more
comfortable teaching the kids to use the paddle than an Avcon plug.
And a 12 volt set of contactors and.... :-)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, of course you need a Magnecharger to be safe. Especially with kids
doing the charging! (yeah, right :-)
Sure. My 4 year old son *loves* to plug in the car for me. Given that
one can't get electrocuted with a MC even if you're standing naked in a
salt-water rainstorm, I have no problem with this.
Speaking of which; should one use any sort of lubrication on a MC
paddle? I'm not thinking oil, but the paddle does show a tiny bit of wear...
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence wrote:
I blame the social hostility created by the current administration
against people like us [snip]
meat wrote:
Well.
You "people like us" jackasses keyed my Hummer.
Since I doubt either of you keyed the others vehicle I suggest you
blame someone else. Its not a Democrat/Republican issue. Its a
criminal element issue, only anarchists support that kind of behavior.
I'm sorry for the vehicle damage both of you have suffered. And now
back to the topic of this list...
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought that some of you might find this interesting. Please don't shoot
the messenger, just passing along info that I was told.
I mentioned this thread to a non-environmentalist friend of mine who owns a
body shop, suggesting to him that environmental issues may be helping his
business. His response was that he didn't think it had anything to do with
the environment or politics. He said that he usually found that car keying
was more the result of the damaged vehicle's driver parking improperly and
offending other drivers. He mentioned things such as blocking other drivers
access by parking crooked in a space or parking in a space that was too
small for the vehicle, or drivers with expensive cars taking up more than
one space in a crowded lot.
Dan
> Lawrence wrote:
> I blame the social hostility created by the current administration
> against people like us [snip]
>
> meat wrote:
> >Well.
> >
> >You "people like us" jackasses keyed my Hummer.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, meat wrote:
> You "people like us" jackasses keyed my Hummer. I blame the social
I thought Hummers had fiberglass/kevlar bodies covered in olive-drab
paint? ;^)
EV Content: The elecric version of the Hummer got better gas milage than
the diesel version. Then again, the diesel version only gets 8 MPG.
-- Kris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In case anyone is interested, the Tango is at the LA Auto Show. It now has a
fit and finish befitting its price tag after spending another $80k on it.
Public showing is from January 2 - 11 at the LA Convention Center.
There is a new brochure available on our web site in PDF format. The link is
on the front page under updates. Note the new headlights on the inside front
cover photo (the other photos are from before the modifications. We have
50,000 printed brochures at the show.
Hope to see some of you at the show.
Best wishes,
Rick
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hummers are fiberglass and aluminum. Some Humvees have armor plating
that includes Kevlar, and some are painted olive drab.
The diesel version of the Hummer gets 12-14 mpg. The diesel version of
the Humvee gets 9-10 mpg. The Hummer H2 - no relation to the Hummer or
the Humvee- gets 8 mpg.
Your pal,
Meat.
Kris Kirby wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, meat wrote:
You "people like us" jackasses keyed my Hummer. I blame the social
I thought Hummers had fiberglass/kevlar bodies covered in olive-drab
paint? ;^)
EV Content: The elecric version of the Hummer got better gas milage than
the diesel version. Then again, the diesel version only gets 8 MPG.
-- Kris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris zach wrote (in part):
"Yeah, I noticed that on my Power Wheel. I assumed actually that it
simply shorted the motors to themselves (a-la the Electrak's mower blade
brake trick); does it have a resistor in there somewhere? Is there an
overload circuit in there as well?"
The footswitch, when depressed, connects the power lead to the motor. When
you let up, it becomes a normally closed switch, which shorts the motors
through a power resistor (5 Watts is the marking on it).
Also, there is an 18A self resetting circuit breaker downstream of the
footswitch. On the jeep, there is a self resetting thermal fuse built into
the battery.
"Given that I would *not* recommend regen on brake. Watching my kids with
the power wheels I have noticed that there is no other braking system.
And on the Prizm, when the pack is full (or nearly so) you don't get any
regen to speak of when you brake. Thus your power wheel will have no
brakes until the battery is burned down a bit. Exceptionally bad."
Actually on your Prizm, this is a function of the motor controller
protecting the battery from overvoltage. These little EV's don't have a
controller, so they would stuff power into the batteries regardless of SOC.
Not necessarily a good thing, but then you are unlikely to get much power
out of those little motors.
"Besides, since the thing is a PM motor, you get regen anyway when you go
down a hill. Kind of like the E10, E12 series tractors; a PM motor can
always do regen on decel."
But due to the construction of the footswitch, the motors are ALWAYS
connected either to the resistor or to power.
"Another note: On our power wheel, one can fit a Hawker Genesis 26ah
battery *perfectly* in between the motors in the rear. I have a pair of
10ah batteries in the front now for ballast; am considering wiring them
into the system with a set of soleniods so they can act as a "get home
battery" if the Hawker is ever run down.
Given that the original batteries in this thing was a 9ah pack this
gives one four+ times the range."
Cool. I got a pair of surplus UPS batteries, but American Science and
Surplus has the Hawker 13 Amp-Hour batteries for like $16.00...
IMPORTANT - THIS MESSAGE (INCLUDING ANY ATTACHMENTS) IS INTENDED ONLY FOR
THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY
CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM
DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF YOU ARE NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU
SHOULD DELETE THIS MESSAGE IMMEDIATELY AND YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY
READING, DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE, OR THE
TAKING OF ANY ACTION BASED ON IT IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. THANK YOU.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Last week, the Woodbury's stopped in to have a fun Thai dinner with us as they blew
through Portland on their way to the LA show.
The brochures are very nicely done, and have a professional look . As I've had quite a
bit
of experience working on Tango, I was especially pleased to see the detailed picture of
the reworked car's new bodywork! I've always been a vocal critic of kit cars and how
every
one I've ever seen, have a homemade look, ill fitting panels, and in general, are of
low
quality when compared to regular production cars, especially those Toyotas and Hondas
from
Japan. Tango had this same low quality appearance, understandable, because of the
prototype nature and its 'built on a budget' status. Still, as Rick and Bryan will tell
you, I kept my mouth running about the car's kit car look and less than acceptable fit
and
finish. That's all changed now! The car was not with them this time around (already in
an
enclosed trailer and on its way to the show), but the fresh picture of the 'new car'
clearly showed a new level of refinement, that quite frankly, gave me goose bumps! The
perfectly aligned door seams are Hondaesque, the paint has a Porsche sheen, and the
reworked front fascia with all new headlights, gives the car a more unique look. Now it
screams, "Yeah, I'm worth the price and am worthy of sitting in the three car garage
next
to your slow Ferrari."
Congrats to Rick and Bryan, for getting the car up to this level of quality, and
congrats
to the LA Auto Show feature spot!
Go get 'em, guys!!!!
See Ya.......John Wayland
PS: Don't forget to crank up that Wayland Signature sound system with a Grooveyard CD
in
the slot!
RickWoodbury wrote:
> In case anyone is interested, the Tango is at the LA Auto Show. It now has a
> fit and finish befitting its price tag after spending another $80k on it.
> Public showing is from January 2 - 11 at the LA Convention Center.
>
> There is a new brochure available on our web site in PDF format. The link is
> on the front page under updates. Note the new headlights on the inside front
> cover photo (the other photos are from before the modifications. We have
> 50,000 printed brochures at the show.
>
> Hope to see some of you at the show.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
> President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
> Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
> Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
> Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
> 715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
I'll let the experts comment on whether batteries charge better with 60
Hz pulses or smooth DC.
However, I picked up on the transformer having a capacitor directly
connected to it. You may have "tuned" transformer, and yes the
capacitor helps with the power factor. These tuned systems have another
characteristic in that they have a constant output voltage over varying
loads and normal variation of input line voltages. So, if you need to
replace the capacitor, be sure to find the correct one. Bigger is not
better in this case.
My Lester charger uses one of these transformers. One winding charges
the pack directly. A second higher voltage winding with its own set of
diodes charges the pack through a resistor. Both are always connected.
The idea seems to be that the lower voltage winding pushes a lot of
current into the pack for most of the charge cycle and the second higher
voltage winding finishes the charge at much lower currents. This means
that the pack is equalized on every charge and consumes water at a
higher rate than other charging schemes. The charger electronics
watches for the change in pack voltage per unit of time (dV/dt) to
approach zero and then just shuts off the AC to the transformer.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't seen the Tango, but the videos are great! (I really though the
car would be tippy, but, its, obiously very stable.)
Christian
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Last week, the Woodbury's stopped in to have a fun Thai dinner with us as they blew
through Portland on their way to the LA show.
The brochures are very nicely done, and have a professional look . As I've had quite a
bit
of experience working on Tango, I was especially pleased to see the detailed picture of
the reworked car's new bodywork! I've always been a vocal critic of kit cars and how
every
one I've ever seen, have a homemade look, ill fitting panels, and in general, are of
low
quality when compared to regular production cars, especially those Toyotas and Hondas
from
Japan. Tango had this same low quality appearance, understandable, because of the
prototype nature and its 'built on a budget' status. Still, as Rick and Bryan will tell
you, I kept my mouth running about the car's kit car look and less than acceptable fit
and
finish. That's all changed now! The car was not with them this time around (already in
an
enclosed trailer and on its way to the show), but the fresh picture of the 'new car'
clearly showed a new level of refinement, that quite frankly, gave me goose bumps! The
perfectly aligned door seams are Hondaesque, the paint has a Porsche sheen, and the
reworked front fascia with all new headlights, gives the car a more unique look. Now it
screams, "Yeah, I'm worth the price and am worthy of sitting in the three car garage
next
to your slow Ferrari."
Congrats to Rick and Bryan, for getting the car up to this level of quality, and
congrats
to the LA Auto Show feature spot!
Go get 'em, guys!!!!
See Ya.......John Wayland
PS: Don't forget to crank up that Wayland Signature sound system with a Grooveyard CD
in
the slot!
RickWoodbury wrote:
In case anyone is interested, the Tango is at the LA Auto Show. It now has a
fit and finish befitting its price tag after spending another $80k on it.
Public showing is from January 2 - 11 at the LA Convention Center.
There is a new brochure available on our web site in PDF format. The link is
on the front page under updates. Note the new headlights on the inside front
cover photo (the other photos are from before the modifications. We have
50,000 printed brochures at the show.
Hope to see some of you at the show.
Best wishes,
Rick
Rick Woodbury Phone: (509) 624-0762
President, Commuter Cars Corporation Toll-free: (800) 468-0944
Doubling the capacity of freeways Fax: (509) 624-1466
Quadrupling the capacity of parking Cellular: (509) 979-1815
Zero to 60 in under 4 seconds
715 E. Sprague Ave., Suite 114 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spokane, WA 99202 Web: http://www.commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That big diesel-electric bus got me thinking. Does anyone know where (or
if) the biodiesel or veggie oil groups are?
Christian Kocmick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everybody. Merry Christmas to all. Best wishes for the New Year.
#2 son came home from Berkeley for Christmas with his girlfriend,
her sporting a rock. So I'm going to be a father-in-law! Whew-hoo.
Anyway, Emile (the son) took an interest in the D. Asked me a
bunch of questions about the batteries, charging, etc. "Can't
you just put more batteries in?" He noticed the test pack of old
Hawker 26 Ah Genesis lying on the floor of the study. So we came
up with the idea of making a series string of these and
paralleling that with the floodies. At a little less than
200lbs, the Hawkers would be about the same weight as a
passenger, so any performance improvement would be comparable to
past experience. The D seems a little heavy for the 96 volt
pack. I have to slow down up the hills to avoid dragging the
voltage below 84 volts, and by the end of the 30 mile trip in
from the cottage, the ev grin changes to a worried frown as I
creep up the hill out of the river valley. I wondered if adding
the high-output Hawkers as a second string might protect the pack
from sag at the 300 watts needed for that hill.
I chose 8 Hawkers that had the closest resting voltages (6 months
after their last charge, all were above 12.6) and wired them up
with spare cables. I used a 250 amp breaker to make the final
connection, but left the main pack disconnected so I could break
in and test out the Hawkers.
First trip out with just the string of Hawkers, I could get 200
amps output but the pack did not last. A trip to the mailbox (1
mile) was about it, and I had to slow down and gear down on the
way back. Repeated the experiment 4 or 5 times. Once, when my
son came along and we had foolishly run the heater on the way
out, we actually pushed the car part way back. I wished that the
new breaker for the main pack had arrived. It would have been
nice to be able to switch in the main pack for a full power trip
back. I could get 10 Ah out of the Hawkers before they would sag
to 84 volts even at 20 amps. This was mostly at ~100 amps draw.
Anyway, after a few warm-up trips I hooked up the main pack and
did some test runs with both packs hooked up. For the first part
of the trip there was no sag at full power, not unusual I guess.
OTOH, full power seemed sluggish compared to the usually sluggish
performance I have been accostomed to. The true test would come
with a trip into town. The whole family was heading in Saturday
so I took the opportunity to go alone in the D. Definitely
sluggish; the car slowed on the low hills even at 300 amps.
Yikes, I've created a Sled!
A little over halfway in, I heard a ting ting that was definitely
not a rock in the wheel well. This seemed like it was under the
car. Just 2 "tings", but when I went to shift gears, oh-oh, no
gears! Arrgh. It's -15C and I'm supposed to be at West Ed in an
hour and a half to see Lord of the Rings with the family. I
coasted to the side of the road, called my wife to send a rescue
party, then lifted the hood and poked around. The nice thing
about doing your own conversion is that you get a basic idea
about how things fit together. I found the clutch linkage
disengaged, but that may have been due to my efforts prior to
coasting to a stop, because reconnecting it did not help. I
checked out the various linkages for the gearbox and found
(eureka) a missing screw that prevented the gears from changing.
OK, fine, but the screw is long gone (I looked) and I have no
tools. Ha! The paper clip that I had used to hold the window
crank on would do just fine, at least enough for me to lock her
into 3rd gear and get home. Lying on the ground reaching up
awkwardly, I got the clip through the screw hole and wound it
around a bit so it wouldn't fall out, then into the car to gently
slide it into 3rd gear. Yay! On the road again. A quick call
to cancel the rescue, and I'm on my way.
She was a little slow on the freeway, I have to admit, and deadly
slow coming off a red light on the river valley hill, but I made
it. Can't say this was a proper test of the parallel strings,
but well, at least I didn't have to walk home.
If anybody has any wisdom to share regarding the feasability of
hybrid strings of flooded and SLA batteries, I'm all ears. I am
toying with the idea of trying out a single string of those
Orbitals that Wayland goes on about, with a main pack of flooded
batteries for range, something lighter weight than the ones I
have now. With my present setup I need 100-120 Ah (9-10 KWh) for
my maximum trip. I doubt if buddy triplets of Orbitals would do
that for me, at 150 Ah nominal, without excessive discharge.
Buddy quadruplets? That would weigh a little more than the 16
US250HC's that I have now, and the local Exide office quoted
C$185 each for those puppies. My flooded pack does the trip, but
wimps out on the last hill.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
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Chris Zach wrote:
> *nod* That's how speed control works on this one. Speed 1 is both
> motors running in series; speed 2 is both in parallel. Speed 1 isn't
> bad, but you can get stuck. On speed 2 it seems to go thru anything.
And, given that we seem to have 11 months of winter and 1 month of poor
skiing here in Minnesota, I made a set of tire chains for my son's
Powerwheels jeep. Now it really does go thru anything! :-)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
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Interesting. I think Hawkers hate the cold, as I have been getting about
15ah into my 52ah pack before the voltage sinks bewlo 290 at a 60amp draw
(C). At full power fully charged (and resting overnight at 0 degrees c) I
drop into the 290's at a 200 amp draw. Right out of the shed. 300 volts is
at about 80amps.
(note: I measure pack performance myself by the amps I can pull while
maintaining 300 volts (12 volts per battery. When I cross C (60amps) at 300
volts I know it's time to find a charge.)
However if I drive it 15ah, then charge, then drive it again I can get 300
volts at 130 amp draw. And if I draw it down 20 ah, then charge it I get
even better performance (300 volts at almost 180amp draw). After a few
cycles I am sure I can get back to the 30ah ranges I was getting before
things cooled off.
Moral: Hawkers hate the cold too. However they at least move the car when
stone cold. I wonder how flooded batteries compare. A T105 does have the
advantage of being a physically bigger battery than the 21lb Hawker; perhaps
they fare cold better.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 10:57 AM
Subject: Mike's electric adventure
> Hi Everybody. Merry Christmas to all. Best wishes for the New Year.
>
> #2 son came home from Berkeley for Christmas with his girlfriend,
> her sporting a rock. So I'm going to be a father-in-law! Whew-hoo.
>
> Anyway, Emile (the son) took an interest in the D. Asked me a
> bunch of questions about the batteries, charging, etc. "Can't
> you just put more batteries in?" He noticed the test pack of old
> Hawker 26 Ah Genesis lying on the floor of the study. So we came
> up with the idea of making a series string of these and
> paralleling that with the floodies. At a little less than
> 200lbs, the Hawkers would be about the same weight as a
> passenger, so any performance improvement would be comparable to
> past experience. The D seems a little heavy for the 96 volt
> pack. I have to slow down up the hills to avoid dragging the
> voltage below 84 volts, and by the end of the 30 mile trip in
> from the cottage, the ev grin changes to a worried frown as I
> creep up the hill out of the river valley. I wondered if adding
> the high-output Hawkers as a second string might protect the pack
> from sag at the 300 watts needed for that hill.
>
> I chose 8 Hawkers that had the closest resting voltages (6 months
> after their last charge, all were above 12.6) and wired them up
> with spare cables. I used a 250 amp breaker to make the final
> connection, but left the main pack disconnected so I could break
> in and test out the Hawkers.
>
> First trip out with just the string of Hawkers, I could get 200
> amps output but the pack did not last. A trip to the mailbox (1
> mile) was about it, and I had to slow down and gear down on the
> way back. Repeated the experiment 4 or 5 times. Once, when my
> son came along and we had foolishly run the heater on the way
> out, we actually pushed the car part way back. I wished that the
> new breaker for the main pack had arrived. It would have been
> nice to be able to switch in the main pack for a full power trip
> back. I could get 10 Ah out of the Hawkers before they would sag
> to 84 volts even at 20 amps. This was mostly at ~100 amps draw.
>
> Anyway, after a few warm-up trips I hooked up the main pack and
> did some test runs with both packs hooked up. For the first part
> of the trip there was no sag at full power, not unusual I guess.
> OTOH, full power seemed sluggish compared to the usually sluggish
> performance I have been accostomed to. The true test would come
> with a trip into town. The whole family was heading in Saturday
> so I took the opportunity to go alone in the D. Definitely
> sluggish; the car slowed on the low hills even at 300 amps.
> Yikes, I've created a Sled!
>
> A little over halfway in, I heard a ting ting that was definitely
> not a rock in the wheel well. This seemed like it was under the
> car. Just 2 "tings", but when I went to shift gears, oh-oh, no
> gears! Arrgh. It's -15C and I'm supposed to be at West Ed in an
> hour and a half to see Lord of the Rings with the family. I
> coasted to the side of the road, called my wife to send a rescue
> party, then lifted the hood and poked around. The nice thing
> about doing your own conversion is that you get a basic idea
> about how things fit together. I found the clutch linkage
> disengaged, but that may have been due to my efforts prior to
> coasting to a stop, because reconnecting it did not help. I
> checked out the various linkages for the gearbox and found
> (eureka) a missing screw that prevented the gears from changing.
> OK, fine, but the screw is long gone (I looked) and I have no
> tools. Ha! The paper clip that I had used to hold the window
> crank on would do just fine, at least enough for me to lock her
> into 3rd gear and get home. Lying on the ground reaching up
> awkwardly, I got the clip through the screw hole and wound it
> around a bit so it wouldn't fall out, then into the car to gently
> slide it into 3rd gear. Yay! On the road again. A quick call
> to cancel the rescue, and I'm on my way.
>
> She was a little slow on the freeway, I have to admit, and deadly
> slow coming off a red light on the river valley hill, but I made
> it. Can't say this was a proper test of the parallel strings,
> but well, at least I didn't have to walk home.
>
> If anybody has any wisdom to share regarding the feasability of
> hybrid strings of flooded and SLA batteries, I'm all ears. I am
> toying with the idea of trying out a single string of those
> Orbitals that Wayland goes on about, with a main pack of flooded
> batteries for range, something lighter weight than the ones I
> have now. With my present setup I need 100-120 Ah (9-10 KWh) for
> my maximum trip. I doubt if buddy triplets of Orbitals would do
> that for me, at 150 Ah nominal, without excessive discharge.
> Buddy quadruplets? That would weigh a little more than the 16
> US250HC's that I have now, and the local Exide office quoted
> C$185 each for those puppies. My flooded pack does the trip, but
> wimps out on the last hill.
>
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
>
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> The footswitch, when depressed, connects the power lead to the motor.
When
> you let up, it becomes a normally closed switch, which shorts the motors
> through a power resistor (5 Watts is the marking on it).
Ah, that's a good idea. Prevents shock on the motor.
> Also, there is an 18A self resetting circuit breaker downstream of the
> footswitch. On the jeep, there is a self resetting thermal fuse built
into
> the battery.
*nod* that is what I heard go "click" when the car stopped. I had a 30amp
fuse in series with the Genesis (like the one on the battery) but I was
wondering if it had another breaker.
Interestingly enough, the breaker only tripped on the return trip when the
battery was sagging. Of course when you lower your voltage you increase the
amperage. Now I know there will be value in putting the 20ah of extra
batteries up front; will keep the voltage up longer.
> Actually on your Prizm, this is a function of the motor controller
> protecting the battery from overvoltage. These little EV's don't have a
> controller, so they would stuff power into the batteries regardless of
SOC.
> Not necessarily a good thing, but then you are unlikely to get much power
> out of those little motors.
True, however won't the regen be less when the battery resistance is low
(ie: fully charged)? No regen on this thing equals no brakes, and that does
bother me a lot.
> But due to the construction of the footswitch, the motors are ALWAYS
> connected either to the resistor or to power.
Just like an Elec-trak; if you take the power to neutral you lose all regen.
Keep your foot in it, and you get regen on the hills. Bounce the seat switch
and you're on friction brake alone.
> Cool. I got a pair of surplus UPS batteries, but American Science and
> Surplus has the Hawker 13 Amp-Hour batteries for like $16.00...
That should be an improvement. The 13ah Hawkers do not drop voltage under
load, so you will get better performance. Try running two in parallel or
grab a 26ah battery from evsurplus.com
Talk about EV smiles; the kids just *love* it.
Chris
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What is the nominal voltage of your pack, Chris? (Perhaps we
should be reporting volts per cell when we post performance
experience).
These Hawkers were not so cold - they had been at room temp
before I put them in and I charged and discharged them a few
times and covered them in between runs, so they stayed pretty
warm. They are old used batteries that were pulled from xray
machines when the pack died. AFAIK, they had several hundred
cycles of ~50% on them, with non-regulated charging.
For the record, I hate the cold too.
Mike
Christopher Zach wrote:
Interesting. I think Hawkers hate the cold, as I have been getting about
15ah into my 52ah pack before the voltage sinks bewlo 290 at a 60amp draw
(C). At full power fully charged (and resting overnight at 0 degrees c) I
drop into the 290's at a 200 amp draw. Right out of the shed. 300 volts is
at about 80amps.
...
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300 volts is the nominal voltage. I thought about vpb, but I assume that
batteries tend to flux a bit, and pack would be more honest.
Typically on my old hawkers (1994 vintage) I seem to get anywhere from 10 to
20ah out of them 20 actually isn't bad for a 10 year old battery. They do
have high impulse current though, so I can use them for starting cars, power
wheels, batteries in little sheds, whatever. One is even in my gas powered
Craftsman tractor in a torture test (sits around for months before starting,
totally unregulated "charger", etc). It still seems to be holding up better
than the tractor garden batteries.
Even the ones that "blew" (can only come up to 10 volts) could put out 15ah
at 10 volts. I suppose the battery plates on one of the cells was shorted.
They're tough little batteries.
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: Mike's electric adventure
> What is the nominal voltage of your pack, Chris? (Perhaps we
> should be reporting volts per cell when we post performance
> experience).
>
> These Hawkers were not so cold - they had been at room temp
> before I put them in and I charged and discharged them a few
> times and covered them in between runs, so they stayed pretty
> warm. They are old used batteries that were pulled from xray
> machines when the pack died. AFAIK, they had several hundred
> cycles of ~50% on them, with non-regulated charging.
>
> For the record, I hate the cold too.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > Interesting. I think Hawkers hate the cold, as I have been getting about
> > 15ah into my 52ah pack before the voltage sinks bewlo 290 at a 60amp
draw
> > (C). At full power fully charged (and resting overnight at 0 degrees c)
I
> > drop into the 290's at a 200 amp draw. Right out of the shed. 300 volts
is
> > at about 80amps.
> > ...
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On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 10:27:20AM -0500, Christian Kocmick wrote:
> That big diesel-electric bus got me thinking. Does anyone know where (or
> if) the biodiesel or veggie oil groups are?
Look on http://groups.yahoo.com/
--
Harmon Seaver
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com
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Christopher Zach wrote:
> Interesting. I think Hawkers hate the cold, as I have been
> getting about 15ah into my 52ah pack before the voltage sinks
> bewlo 290 at a 60amp draw (C). At full power fully charged
> (and resting overnight at 0 degrees c) I drop into the 290's
> at a 200 amp draw. Right out of the shed. 300 volts is at
> about 80amps.
>
> (note: I measure pack performance myself by the amps I can
> pull while maintaining 300 volts (12 volts per battery. When
> I cross C (60amps) at 300 volts I know it's time to find a charge.)
>
> However if I drive it 15ah, then charge, then drive it again
> I can get 300 volts at 130 amp draw. And if I draw it down
> 20 ah, then charge it I get even better performance (300
> volts at almost 180amp draw). After a few cycles I am sure I
> can get back to the 30ah ranges I was getting before things
> cooled off.
>
> Moral: Hawkers hate the cold too. However they at least move
> the car when stone cold. I wonder how flooded batteries
> compare. A T105 does have the advantage of being a physically
> bigger battery than the 21lb Hawker; perhaps they fare cold better.
Hi Chris,
I don't think your Hawkers hate the cold any more than other lead-acid
batteries. Being fairly small (26 Ah), it doesn't take much amp draw to
show how the cold has affected them. That's also why they heat up so
nicely after a run and a charge.
I had thought (naively, perhaps) that you should be able to parallel a
small stiff pack with a bigger flooded pack of the same nominal voltage.
I would think the stiffer pack would sag less and therefore carry you
through the big amp draws, while for lower current draws they'd just be
loafing or "recharging" off the floodeds. Of course you'd have to
charge the two packs separately, but it still seemed an attractive
concept.
Perhaps Mike's packs are too different? His floodeds are what, 90 lb.
each? It may be asking too much of a 22 lb. Hawker to do the heavy
lifting for very long. I'm still confused as to why the added Hawkers
might make the car feel more sluggish.
Or maybe there's an issue if the two nominally identical packs have
resting voltages that are several volts different? Gurus? This seems
like one of those questions that appears quite simple, yet is
deceptively subtle and tricky. Well, to this dolt, anyway.
Chris
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