EV Digest 3278
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: F-cells on eBay
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Fwd: Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible?
Critiscisms? Comments? Recommendations?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: F-cells on eBay
by Dermot Dobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible? Critiscisms? Comments?
Recommendations?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Li-ion battery lot
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) NEDRA Drags freeloader/bartering
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Choices
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: e-meter interference?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fiero EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Battery Choices
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fiero EV
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible? Critiscisms?
Comments? Recommendations?
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Choices
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Educational Outreach
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible? Critiscisms?
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Educational Outreach
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Tickets for parking in EV parking
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NEDRA Drags freeloader/bartering
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Educational Outreach
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NEDRA Drags freeloader/bartering
by seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Thanks for pre-charge input
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery Choices
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Educational Outreach
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The seller said: For the lot, the each is Ebay's screw-up
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This concept entails using a 336V pack of Evercel M50-12-7
> batteries, rated at 40 ah and 12V, each weighing in at 20.5
> pounds, costing $193.00. They could probably handle short
> draws of 500 amps as Wayland has stated to me in emails. The
> voltage sag at a 500 amp draw would probably lower the 336
> volts to around 180 volts. But that's a nice, solid, 120
> horse, even with the awful sag. With 28 batteries, the pack
> voltage would be 336 V, pack weight 574 pounds, and pack
> cost $5,400.
Peak power is rated at 280w/kg at the Evertroll site. That works out to 73kw out
of your example.
> Think the NiZn idea would be possible? Any critiscisms or
> suggestions? With 216+ volts of Optimas or Excides and a
> Zilla instead of NiZn and a DCP, I can almost guaruntee this
> thing would do 0-60 in under 5 with 40-50 mile range, but
> I'm not so sure about my guesses on the NiZn.
13 Exides and a Raptor in a Bug-eye Sprite with a hardtop, reworked suspension
and fiberglass body panels would be a cheaper starter project...but, hey, if
you've got the bucks...
Speaking of bucks, has anyone gotten prices for the li-ion EV cells from
edan.com.tw or splendidbattery.com? No performance specs on the latter, but the
former lists 500A peaks from the 100Ah cell, and >800cycles (but at what rate
and DoD?).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Varta do not seem to make/sell NiCd cells anymore (as far as I can tell
from their EU site), only NiMH and Lithium so I'm guessing that these may
be older stock, even though 'unused'.
dermot
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a very similar idea to what I'm doing with a Clubman.
I've chosen a Zilla 1K, 144V x 100Ah TS Li-Ions, ADC 9" FB1-4001.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: John Westlund [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January 2004 5:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible?
Critiscisms? Comments? Recommendations?
I've posted here about a month ago with an idea of building
a ~$50,000 EV that could do 0-60 in 5, 200 mile range, 120+
mph top end, and heard the typical can/ cannot do sides of
the argument, and I've done a little more research on the
subject. I've talked to Wayland about the Evercells a few
suggested and found that their voltage sag is hideous at
300-500 amp draws and that they wouldn't be very suitable
for high performance unless it was used in an extremely
light and low drag car(Like the Insight proposal).
ThunderSkys would give great range, but since I hear many
aren't able to get near the claimed 300A draw, their
performance would be lacking, only being able to go up to
50A or so without completely roasting them. Worleys from
Australia are quite high priced though, although they'd be
usable. For somewhat affordable performance for a single
volume production, it generally has to be Optimas or
Excides. Lead acid are bad in cold weather and lose power,
without proper heating systems. Their cost per mile
operation over the battery life is high compared to the
Evercel NiZn or to Li Ions and cancels out the savings over
an ICE, even though they could get 50-60 miles with a 216V
pack on a very light car and would really perform like mad
with a Godzilla 2k. So, I've been thinking lately.
How about something that could be built for around $25,000,
0-60 around high 6 range, 140+ MPH top speed, 70-100 mile
range, ~150 wh per mile highway consumption @55 MPH, and
superb handling even with Nokia low rolling loss 13 inch
tires?
Maybe it's possible. The Fisher Fury kit car, produced by
Fisher Sports cars, using a Hayabusa motorcycle engine and
very few "creature comforts" comes in at a mere 900 pounds.
One loaded with creature comforts and using a Rover inline 4
is generally about 1,200 pounds curb weight. I'm guessing
from this the glider weight is about 600 pounds. I know the
frontal area is very small, given the height of 39 inches
with top on and width of 60 inches, about 13.5 square feet,
estimate achieved by comparing width * height vs. actual
frontal area of cars like MG Midgets and Triumph Spitfires.
Considering the car looks very sleek and long, with a
somewhat rounded front end(Le Mans front model), smooth skin
surface, and somewhat tapered rear end, the drag coefficient
with a top on is probably around .35-.38, the guess is made
given that the Lotus Elise achieves an estimated Cd of .36
according tomany reliable sources. The price for an entire
kit including all ICE parts is $11,000 in the US, or in
Britain, can be completed for ~6,000 pounds. Minus any ICE
components but including tranny, about $7,000 here.
This concept entails using a 336V pack of Evercel M50-12-7
batteries, rated at 40 ah and 12V, each weighing in at 20.5
pounds, costing $193.00. They could probably handle short
draws of 500 amps as Wayland has stated to me in emails. The
voltage sag at a 500 amp draw would probably lower the 336
volts to around 180 volts. But that's a nice, solid, 120
horse, even with the awful sag. With 28 batteries, the pack
voltage would be 336 V, pack weight 574 pounds, and pack
cost $5,400.
The motor? an ADC9 probably couldn't handle 336V, and a
Metric Mind AC drive would be nice, but that's about $10k
for it and the inverter/ cooler for what I have in mind,
although that would perform VERY nicely with such a flat
torque curve. Thus a WarP9 would be ideal, it's made to
handle that voltage, and would save me $300 over the ADC9,
as it's only $1,500. 150 pounds weight.
Controller? With NiZn, a Godzilla would toast it. I do need
something that can handle a high voltage though. DCP Raptor
600 would be ideal, up to 348V and costs $2,000, saving me
$3,000 on the Zilla. 18 pounds weight.
The adaptor plate/ motor mount will cost around $1,000 to
custom fab, but I may be able to use the machine shop at my
University for this.
Charger? A PFC50 would be very nice, full charge in about an
hour. $3,000. 20 pounds weight.
Add about $5,000 for any needed parts, like contactors,
fuses, wires, battery boxes, hard top, ceramic heater,
anmeter, ect, and add 500 pounds misc. weight.
Results? You have a Cd * Fa of 4.8-4.9, curb weight of
1,800-1,900 pounds, 13.44 kWh onboard energy, and ~90 kW
power with voltage sag counted. Using low rolling loss
tires, this would result in 80-100 mile range(Perhaps 120
range if driven very carefully at about 50), 0-60 ~6.6-7.0,
140+ MPH top speed, and a $25,000 price tag to make. It
would be well capable of smoking tires. Power to weight
ratio would be about .065, on par with Mitsubishi 3000GTs
and Subaru WRXs. Given such a low weight and even lower than
normal center of gravity with the batteries anchoring the
car to the ground, easily .90 on a skidpad with low rollers.
Some things to keep in mind. The Cd times frontal area would
be similar to a Honda Insight. 13.5 feet square * .36 Cd vs
18 feet square * .25 Cd is very close. Wayland's Insight
proposal would weigh in at 1900-2000 pounds. This concept
Wayland had is estimated to accelerate and top out like this
idea, with 0-60 in high 6 low 7 range, 150+ top speed, and
have 100 range, 130 with *very* careful driving.
This idea I have adds up to an 1800 pound car that costs
about $25,000 to build, does 0-60 6.6-7.0, tops 140, has
heating, seats two, 70-100 mile range, cold weather
operation, and hour charge time.
I have yet to work out the exact calculations yet, but this
looks very promising. There are a few caveats. The main one
is if I could fit 28 Evercell small size batteries into such
a tiny car like the Fury. I'd have little or no storage
space.
Wayland has advised against using kits due to stylistic
purposes, and I got to thinking about a lot of the VW Bug
kits, and at first considered it a good idea. But the GT40
and Ferrari ripoffs I had in mind would earn nothing but
laughs, even though those kits were fairly light, at
1,400-1,600 pounds, but then again, John's Datsun 1200 came
in at 1,500 with all ICE parts in stock. Although the Datsun
is a great car, I really don't like the style and would
rather have a two seat roadster. Four seats is sort of a
turn off right now. The Fury doesn't look too bad, much like
a cross between a Jaguar D-Type, Lotus 23, Porsche Spyder,
and Maserati Birdcage. It certainly doesn't have the bad
sci-fi movie sort of tacky aspect to its look that a Piontek
Sportek has. It as a gas chugger alone draws lots of good
attention I hear, but showing people batteries and a series
DC in place would really catch them off guard!
Photos of what I am eyeing can be found at:
http://www.freewebs.com/mega-r1/fury.jpg
http://www.freewebz.com/mega-r1/lemans.jpg
http://www.freewebz.com/mega-r1/kcws.jpg
If I were to build this, I'd want a black top, British
Racing Green paint color, and a white racing stripe down the
middle of the car, exactly like the yellow stripe on the
blue car photographed. Add in a pretty silver-colored roll
bar. I'd name this one "Greenpeace" and use it as both
commuter and something to play with at the nearby track(Or
embarass the local ricers with). If it uses AGM, it would
gain a lot of notoriety in my area for its hotroddery, for
certain. For the sake of EVs, that would certainly be a BIG
plus.
Think the NiZn idea would be possible? Any critiscisms or
suggestions? With 216+ volts of Optimas or Excides and a
Zilla instead of NiZn and a DCP, I can almost guaruntee this
thing would do 0-60 in under 5 with 40-50 mile range, but
I'm not so sure about my guesses on the NiZn.
I know what I am going to do soon though, work out all the
calculations I can, even though numbers on the batteries I'm
looking at aren't very specific as far as internal
resistance and max current draw are concerned, nor do I yet
have specifics on the car's available final drive and
transmission options. I want 0-60 to be under 7.5, and if
the NiZn can't do it, then I will probably go with some AGM
under there. I already have a few grand stashed away now
from never spending anything and I imagine I could stash up
$25,000 in 2 years(Or less), considering I'm still living
with parents(18 years old). I will probably try to convert a
Toyota Paseo(Very light, would allow good accel with cheap
controller as Edward Ang can attest to) as a starter vehicle
with a 216V pack or perhaps build a simple electric bike,
each of which would cost $7,000 and $1,200 respectively.
The Toyota would weigh in around 2,200, have a 35 mile
range(Exactly enough get me to and from school each day with
70% DoD, which is a 9.8 mile commute using side streets to
Univerity to avoid rush hour and 15 miles home on highway to
show EV off), and accelerate from 0-60 in 9 seconds, top 90
MPH. The bike would really be a bit useless, but a very
inexpensive learning experience for some hands on work,
which is very necessary before attempting an expensive, high
performance, and potentially dangerous sports car.
So, suggestions? Critiscisms? Advice?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While we are looking for candidates for an EV pack, how about 100 10.8V/3.4Ah
Li-Ions? --->
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3451550902&category=40177
Would these have cell monitoring, and can they handle much current?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, I have the time off from work and I am buying a ticket today. For
just me, I don't want to rent a car. I plan on getting a room on the
strip. So I was wondering if I can bum a ride off someone to/from the
dragstrip from "the strip". I will buy you breakfast, gas or otherwise
compensate someone who wants to help out a fellow EV'r.
Feel free to contact me offlist.
Thanks,
Seth Allen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing I have noticed about my excide orbitals is that the voltage stays
higher when being discharged and lower when being charged compared to golf
cart batteries. this would look to me to cost less to charge per kwh and
also give back more kwhs per power put in then the golf cart bats , by about
%10 ( maybe more) . Having 12v instead of 11v under load is almost %10 gain
in power and where golf cart bats got to 13v (2x6) when you put them on the
charger the orbs voltage hardly mores .
just somthing I noticed
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doh! I had indeed made a nice noise injector. It was a quick fix to snip
the chassis ground (leaving the shields not connected to anything) and
the meter starting reading reasonable voltages. As a controlled
experiment I may try it with the shield returning to the pack negative
and see what that does.
I have more work to do in the dashboard for a tachometer and such and
when I have stuff apart I'll take a look inside the Link-10 to see what
version Xantrax is selling.
Thank you Roger & Lee.
Jim Coate wrote:
I got several helpful comments... to answer a few questions:
- The e-meter is fairly new (actually a Link-10) so I assume it has the
"EV filter" circuit included (filter cap on the power input as I recall?)
- The cable I used is somewhat twisted, like a twist or two per inch. I
have seen much tighter twists in other cables (but not cable with needed
voltage ratings, shielding, etc.)
- I grounded all the shields to the chassis at the dashboard end.
Perhaps since all the signals involved are relative to pack negative, I
should hook the shield to that?
- The meter cabling is physically far away from high power cables...
except the pre-scaler (official Cruising Equipment model) is right under
the main fuse for the high power line to the controller. Oops. Maybe I
should move that.
More things to try...
And for the record I like getting EVDL messages as plain text e-mails.
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
> Things to check are:
>
> - For a shielded cable to work properly you must ground the shield(s)
> at one end only and that should be a point common to the signal
> grounds. Some systems run a separate heavy ground strap from each
> device to a common point if necessary, don't rely on the car body for
> electronic devices grounds.
> - A small (pf) size capacitor across the signal lines where they enter
> the emeter will also help shut any noise to ground. I don't know if
> the emeter manual says anything about this. I seem to remember a
> couple of years back there was an external R/C circuit suggested to
> help keep noise out of the meter. Newer meters I think are supposed
> to have this built in.
> - Finally keep the signal lines away from the high current lines, try
> to cross over any such cables at right angles to avoid inductive
> coupling of noise.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
speaking of battery choices...
does anyone have a tally of the commonly
used/discussed battery choices out there and their
properties in EV applications.
what I am thinking about/looking for is maybe a
spreadsheet with the following columns (i am writing
as i am thinking so these are in no particular order):
battery manufacturer
battery type/chemistry
model number
Voltage
Amp hour capacity (under various load conditions)
W Hr capacity (under various load conditions)
internal resistance
specific power
specific energy
battery volume/dimensions
battery weight
temperature range (charging and operation)
special chargeing considerations
price per unit
availability
cycle life (in various duties)
real world data ?
additional comments
anyone got something like this ? i imagine someone has
put together a start at somepoint when comparing
different battery choices.
anyone ?
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have a schematic of your tachometer
converter schematic?
I'm assuming it will work on a 1984 Fiero SE.
Thanks,
Rod
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/264.html
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> In a message dated 1/12/04 9:21:07 PM Pacific
> Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> writes:
> Hi Pat,
>
> I'm interested in what your final battery selection
> is, since
> I also have a 1988 Fiero. It has 24 Optima Yellow
> Tops in
> it. The car is pretty heavy. The range is around
> 25 miles
> in all around driving; I get about 33 miles on flat
> land with
> not too many stops. It doesn't change much with
> speed.
>
> Are you using buddy pairs or a single string?
> How many up front?
> What controller do you have?
> What Currents are you drawing at 60MPH?
> Do you have a battery management system?
>
> I'll also be very interested in any pictures you
> post.
> I'm taking lots of pictures as i go. So far I have
> the motor installed and
> the front battery compartment 50% done. I'll post
> pictures as I get closer to
> completion.
>
> I have designed a Tachometer circuit that drives the
> stock Tach. and a
> circuit that drives the analog gages from the
> battery management system. If anyone
> is interested I can provide schematics.
>
> I also have a vaccuum system for the power brakes.
>
> How are the brakes on your car? The 88 brakes seem
> superior to all the older
> fieros.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
"...If I were to build this, I'd want a black top, British
Racing Green paint color, and a white racing stripe down the
middle of the car, exactly like the yellow stripe on the
blue car photographed. Add in a pretty silver-colored roll
bar. I'd name this one "Greenpeace" and use it as both
commuter and something to play with at the nearby track(Or
embarass the local ricers with). If it uses AGM, it would
gain a lot of notoriety in my area for its hotroddery, for
certain. For the sake of EVs, that would certainly be a BIG
plus..."
"...The bike would really be a bit useless, but a very
inexpensive learning experience for some hands on work,
which is very necessary before attempting an expensive, high
performance, and potentially dangerous sports car..."
So, suggestions? Critiscisms? Advice?
The Fury is a pretty trick little car.
There are some things about kit cars that you should be aware of before
you decide this is the kit for you.
Not all states register the cars the same way, and not all kits can be
put on the road once they're completed. Some common pitfalls:
- Plexglass or lexan windscreens. These are a big no-no. While some
people can get away with using them, they are generally consider to be
completely illegale for use as a windshield.
- Windshield wipers, turn signals, braking systems. Almost all states
require windshield wipers. Most states require turn signals. Some
states require backup lights. All states require a brake and light test
- although not every DMV or State Patrol agency knows this, and
sometimes you can get away without getting one.
- Headlights/taillights. In some states the headlights have to be a
certain number of inches off the ground. The Fury may be high enough,
but you should be aware of what the requirements are in your state.
- Availability of parts. The Fury isn't all that well-known in the
U.S., and the parts used for the suspension, steering etc, may be
sourced from European cars. This means that if anything breaks, your
car could be down for awhile while you're waiting to get parts shipped.
- Seatbelts. Your car pretty much HAS to have them. Some states
require lap belts, some require shoulder belts. Some simply say
"seatbelts" and leave the interpretation of what that means up to the
BAR guys.
I'm not going to in any way deter you from building your car, but you do
need to thoroughly research the kit and your registration reqirements
for your state - not just the driveline of your car. I'd recommend
checking in with a local kit car club in your area. If you need any
help finding one, let me know.
There are other kits that weigh in at about the same (using the
lightweight racing car with the plexi and such is probably not going to
be the way to go; you need a windshield), like the Westfield and the
LoCost (which are Seven replicas - althoguh Locost does have a very
affordable Eleven replica which is closer to what the Fury looks like),
and you might want to check in on them as well - they have much better
support in the U.S. than the Fury currently does.
Hope that helps.
Your pal,
Meat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I, too, would like to see such a spreadsheet. Please do us all a BIG favor
and include some contact information, at least on the non-lead chemistries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Fortunat Mueller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 9:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery Choices
speaking of battery choices...
does anyone have a tally of the commonly
used/discussed battery choices out there and their
properties in EV applications.
what I am thinking about/looking for is maybe a
spreadsheet with the following columns (i am writing
as i am thinking so these are in no particular order):
battery manufacturer
battery type/chemistry
model number
Voltage
Amp hour capacity (under various load conditions)
W Hr capacity (under various load conditions)
internal resistance
specific power
specific energy
battery volume/dimensions
battery weight
temperature range (charging and operation)
special chargeing considerations
price per unit
availability
cycle life (in various duties)
real world data ?
additional comments
anyone got something like this ? i imagine someone has
put together a start at somepoint when comparing
different battery choices.
anyone ?
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Folks:
My neighbor talked me into taking our RAV4 EV to the school where she works
and showing it to the sixth-graders.
She says they are full of questions about EVs that she can't answer.
Having never done this before I'm seeking help from others who have.
What I would like to find is an easily digestible explanation of:
1. What makes batteries work
2. How do solar panels work
And maybe a good list of links to EV related sites, i.e., history, et.al.
If anybody out there has any experience conveying EV awareness to 11/12
year-olds and would like to share, please help.
Thanks!
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
PS: I'm trying to wrest our 7 year-old away from my wife long enough for a
roadtrip to LV on the 24th to show him some REAL EVs!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
If you're going with advanced batteries, your best bet might be Saft
NiCads. From the testing I've been reading on this board, you might
find yourself very unhappy with the cycle life of the Evercels.
Lead-acid doesn't have to be affected by cold. You're already plugging
the car in to charge, so you can use a little extra juice to keep the
batteries
warm. Once the car's charged, the batteries will hold enough heat to stay
lively until you're ready to plug in again.
For the performance you're seeking, your best bet might be a 120-156 volt
pack of Exide Orbitals fed by a pack of advanced batteries. The advantages
are that you'll get more power from a lower voltage with less sag at high
amp draws (and you can turn up the Zilla without blowing up a battery), and
you can feed the Orbitals from your advanced pack at a rate comfortable for
that pack.
The big question becomes, of course, whether you can fit those batteries
into a kit car. Battery management might become your biggest cost in this
project.
Tim
---------
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible? Critiscisms?
Comments? Recommendations?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:40:17 -0600
I've posted here about a month ago with an idea of building
a ~$50,000 EV that could do 0-60 in 5, 200 mile range, 120+
mph top end, and heard the typical can/ cannot do sides of
the argument, and I've done a little more research on the
subject. I've talked to Wayland about the Evercells a few
suggested and found that their voltage sag is hideous at
300-500 amp draws and that they wouldn't be very suitable
for high performance unless it was used in an extremely
light and low drag car(Like the Insight proposal).
<big snip>
_________________________________________________________________
Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up � fast & reliable Internet access with prime
features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Marvin. I did a presentation with some oomph a while back. You can
download it at
http://www.100megsfree.com/davidbr13/EVpres.ppt
The speaking notes that go with it are here:
http://www.100megsfree.com/davidbr13/evsite/EVoutline.html
It's a bit dated, but easy to modify. Have fun.
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 10:47 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Educational Outreach
Dear Folks:
My neighbor talked me into taking our RAV4 EV to the school where she works
and showing it to the sixth-graders.
She says they are full of questions about EVs that she can't answer.
Having never done this before I'm seeking help from others who have.
What I would like to find is an easily digestible explanation of:
1. What makes batteries work
2. How do solar panels work
And maybe a good list of links to EV related sites, i.e., history, et.al.
If anybody out there has any experience conveying EV awareness to 11/12
year-olds and would like to share, please help.
Thanks!
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
PS: I'm trying to wrest our 7 year-old away from my wife long enough for a
roadtrip to LV on the 24th to show him some REAL EVs!
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Might it be possible to modify these for EV use. Lawrence Rhodes......
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:19:50 -0500
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Printing out SUV tickets
From:
http://www.baaction.org/SUVticket
Printing out the SUV ticket:
The SUV ticket is in two files that are in PDF format.
The first file is the front side of the ticket
http://www.baaction.org/SUVticket/SUVfront.pdf
and the second file is the backside of the ticket.
http://www.baaction.org/SUVticket/SUVback.pdf
Download both files to your computer by double clicking on the first file
and second file links. To print the files, double click on your downloaded
files to open the Acrobat Reader application. Make sure to select "US
letter" as the page size in the page setup menu. Print the front side first
and then put this printout back in your printer and print the back side
making sure to print on the blank side of the paper.
Although the PDF files are in color, the printouts work with black and
white. Laser printers work the best. Color inkjet printers may blur the
white writing in the red box. Cut out the tickets and you are ready.
Alternatively, you can print out a "master" back and white ticket and take
it to a copy shop and run off a bunch of copies on yellow or pink, or other
ticket colors. You can even have them cut them and get a gum binding for
ticket booklets!
A note about giving tickets:
Remember that this ticket is to be informative, not antagonistic. Choose
your fellow citizen accordingly. For instance, gardeners, carpenters, and
others that need to use trucks for their work will not be very receptive to
the ticket as they have a real need for their trucks. So if you see a truck
loaded down with gardening or construction equipment, choose another for
your education campaign.
I would also avoid the Honda CRV, Subaru Forester, and Toyota RAV4, in that
these cars are cleaner and actually get pretty good gas mileage unlike the
other larger SUVs. Most people do not like tickets so if you are asked what
it is, tell them it is environmental information. Be polite, courteous and
have fun!
Questions:
SUV@ evcl.com
Bay Area Action
265 Moffett Boulevard
Mountain View CA 94043-4723 USA
+1 650 625.1994 Fax +1 650 625.1995
Also go to:
http://www.moles.org/ProjectUnderground/campaigns/suv.shtml
1-800-497-1994 x 230
suvticket@ globalexchange.org
"If broccoli were the number one export from the Middle East, we wouldn't be
invading Iraq"
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Hi Seth,
We have an excellent bus system here but I can't tell from the route map
how close to the Speedway the stops are. You can get a 24 hour bus (CAT)
pass for $5.00 and use it to go anywhere in town. Possibly someone who
has been to the Speedway or lives out that way could let you know how far
you would have to walk if you took the bus. If this is of interest to you
I can ask about the routes around work also. I think at least one of my
co-workers lives in that direction.
Right now the weather is great for walking or biking, so if you can get
within a mile or so it would be a pleasant walk.
Gail
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004, Seth Allen wrote:
> OK, I have the time off from work and I am buying a ticket today. For
> just me, I don't want to rent a car. I plan on getting a room on the
> strip. So I was wondering if I can bum a ride off someone to/from the
> dragstrip from "the strip". I will buy you breakfast, gas or otherwise
> compensate someone who wants to help out a fellow EV'r.
>
> Feel free to contact me offlist.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth Allen
>
>
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1 http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=how+do+batteries+work
2 http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=How+do+solar+panels+work
There will be more questions, so you can use the same format
in your web search to easily find the answers. Some of the
sites found are designed for teachers to use in their classes
(they get questions all the time and use the web as a
resource).
Another set of qna to go with those is:
-the ability of EVs to use any Electrical power source
(renewable or not, grid or off grid, etc.) which allows
the driver to choose what power he wants to charge from.
-the energy mix/cost if charging at night
-the energy mix/cost if charging during the day
(the above would be area/power company specific)
-how EVs charging at night help the power grid
-how batteries are recycled (PB, NiMH, Li)
-how conversions save energy/pollution by not having to
make a new vehicle or spend the energy/pollution to
crush an old ICE
-the amount of time not spent on (self-destructing) ICE
maintenance and smogging regulations (state specific).
ta
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
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Thanks, that's a great idea! Maybe I can get bus information online...
Seth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi Seth,
>
> We have an excellent bus system here but I can't tell from the route map
> how close to the Speedway the stops are. You can get a 24 hour bus (CAT)
> pass for $5.00 and use it to go anywhere in town. Possibly someone who
> has been to the Speedway or lives out that way could let you know how far
> you would have to walk if you took the bus. If this is of interest to you
> I can ask about the routes around work also. I think at least one of my
> co-workers lives in that direction.
>
> Right now the weather is great for walking or biking, so if you can get
> within a mile or so it would be a pleasant walk.
>
> Gail
>
> On Tue, 13 Jan 2004, Seth Allen wrote:
>
> > OK, I have the time off from work and I am buying a ticket today. For
> > just me, I don't want to rent a car. I plan on getting a room on the
> > strip. So I was wondering if I can bum a ride off someone to/from the
> > dragstrip from "the strip". I will buy you breakfast, gas or otherwise
> > compensate someone who wants to help out a fellow EV'r.
> >
> > Feel free to contact me offlist.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Seth Allen
> >
> >
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At 5:53 PM -0500 1/12/04, fred whitridge wrote:
Otmar: Can you describe the operation of your pre-charge circuit?
Glad to:
Hardware:
The precharge hardware consists of three main parts, the sensor, the
resistor and the Hairball to control it all.
The sensor is always connected across the power terminals on the main
contactor. It is a constant current regulator pulling 1ma through a
optocoupler. Anytime the voltage across the terminals is over 6V it
turns on a optocoupler (and a LED) to indicate that the controller is
not precharged.
The resistor consists of a number of PTC self resetting fuses in
parallel (which are resistors). These are connected across the
contactor power terminals with a relay and a snubber network on the
relay.
Operation:
When the driver turns the key to the start position the Hairball
springs in action.
1) First it checks to make sure that the optocoupler is on,
indicating that there is voltage on the pack and that the contactor
is not welded on.
2) It now turns on the relay to engage the PTC fuses which also act
as resistors. This will charge the controller in 0.5 to 3 seconds
depending on the controller and voltage.
3) When the controller is precharged and the optocoupler turns off,
it checks that the data buss to the controller is running with no
errors. If it passes these tests then it switches on the main
contactor.
4) The Hairball now waits for a zero pot condition before it lets the
car drive.
That's basically it. There are some more twists to deal with failure
modes, to protect the precharge relay, to deal with odd switching
conditions (such at turning the key on and off repeatedly) and to
monitor the contactor while driving as well.
How long does a 'Zilla take to lose the charge on its caps?
It depends on how much charge we are talking about and how high the
battery voltage is. It will lose 6 volts within a few seconds. This
is enough to cause my unit to re-initiate precharge. A Z2K at high
voltage will take 3 or more minutes to self discharge down to 12
volts or less.
HTH,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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I agree with Jim. If I remember correctly, Pat said he would be using
a Z1K, for which the Saft NiCds would not be well suited (except maybe
in a parallel string). The other problem is the body - a Pontiac Fiero
doesn't seem like it would readily take a parallel string of batteries
for that 75 mile range.
Getting back a bit more to the original question...
If, Pat, you expect to get all the speed that Z1K has to offer, I'd say
your best bet is going to be a pack of Orbitals or YT's. You might be
able to get something somewhat close to the range you're looking for if
you have a high-voltage system -- it's the most economical way (both in
cash and weight) to add batteries to your car without sacrificing the
power at higher speeds. My suggestion to you would be to cram in as
many Orbitals (or YT's) as your Fiero will hold. Your original number
-- 22 -- sounds like it will have decent range - enough to manage your
35-mile commute, at least, though others like John Wayland may be able
to give you a better estimate on that.
I've done a fair amount of research on this myself, since I'm in the
process of converting a Porsche 914 (which is not all that different
from your Fiero in size and style) with a T-Rex 1000, but I'm not going
to pretend to be an expert. For my own conversion I'm expecting to use
16 Optimas for a 25-mile range, though as I get closer to completion
(and find out exactly how much space I have), I may think about adding
a couple more to make that 25 (and maybe a bit more) a little gentler
on the batteries.
Hope this helps!
-Ben
On Jan 12, 2004, at 11:35 AM, Jim Coate wrote:
Except... the original poster has a Zilla and Netgain motor combo so I
would assume wants better than tepid Curtis type performance.
Wasn't the consensus that the SAFT NiCad EV modules (100's & 140's)
don't tolerate high currents? As in the 500 amps for 10 seconds listed
in the documentation is more like 250 amps peak to avoid early death?
This power level worked for the Solectria's but from most accounts
with modest at best acceleration. So to get "regular" or better
performance, then are we back at a hybrid pack?
Also when looking at the water cooled version for my truck, I couldn't
get any numbers from them as to how much heat would be generated to
know how to size a radiator, flow rate, etc. Leaving my back with lead
as the default.
Seth Allen wrote:
I have been saying that they are the only viable chemistry for a
while. Nothing else is as rugged and has decent (if not great) enegry
density.
On Jan 10, 2004, at 7:38 PM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
If you want a single (not hybrid) battery pack, I have to say SAFT
Nicad
[...]
So, at the moment, from where I sit. the only advanced chemistry that
you can buy off-the-shelf and expect to have work correctly and be
supported are the SAFT NiCads.
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>>> Well I am getting to the point where I must make a battery choice
>>> and I would like the lists input. Many of you have real world
>>> experience with the various batteries available and I would like
>>> your opinnion. I have designed a BMS that can be reprogramed for
>>> any technology.
>>>
>>> My EV is a 1988 Fiero with a 8 inch Netgain motor and 5 speed. I
>>> will be using a Zilla 1 K controler <snip>
>>> What are your suggestions and why?
>>>
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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In years past I've shown off my truck to school kids a bunch, mostly 6th
& 7th graders but also 5th, 8th, and 9th. This year I've seen some of
these kids in the corridors at the high school, and I get a kick out of
how they remember me as the guy with the electric truck... even those
who didn't seem to pay attention or insulted it at the time.
Biggest question I think was "how FAST"? Probably a little less likely
than adults to try the "generator on the wheels" thing but seem to ask
more often about EV's in the rain or in the car wash. And be prepared to
hype the concept that you WANT to plug it in (at home!) to counter the
hybrid marketing they are steeped in.
Before showing the EV innards, I found that a cordless drill was a handy
stage prop... most have seen such and was easy for the group to identify
the major parts: battery, controller (aka trigger) and motor (and gear
box if they are into it). And of course remote control toy cars are a
great comparison.
With the older kids if had the time I'd also show some video of solar
cars and of the Maniac Mazda (thanks Rod)... the kids would often pick
up on how the Viper started catching up near the end of the run so could
have a good talk about low-end torque... but that's likely beyond a show
& tell event. In reality, you probably won't get in super deep unless
you are invited for a week long residency ... you are mainly going to
try and undo 11-12 years of training that only gasoline can make a car go.
I tend to like the "How Stuff Works" web site as it has reasonably good
answers and is geared towards this age group.
Electric cars:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/electric-car.htm/printable
Batteries:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/battery.htm/printable
Solar cells:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/solar-cell.htm/printable
Hybrids:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hybrid-car.htm/printable
Oh and if you happen to have a Lego or Kinex set with a solar cell, you
can make (or have them make) a solar electric car pretty fast. And then
sign them up for Junior Solar Sprint come spring :-)
Good luck. Have fun, relax, and remember that it's all new to them.
Marvin Campbell wrote:
> My neighbor talked me into taking our RAV4 EV to the school ...
> If anybody out there has any experience conveying EV awareness to
> 11/12 year-olds and would like to share, please help.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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