EV Digest 3344
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Mode Programming is ALIVE & WELL in US Prius! RE: to the 2004 list.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Next OEVA meeting in Portland, OR
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Next OEVA meeting this Thursday, Feb. 12
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Killing Raptors and T-Rexs, should I be concerned?
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) anyone EVER fried a zilla?
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: death of a DCP raptor; Get a Zilla!
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: death of a DCP raptor
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sparrow docs
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: death of a DCP raptor
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) nedra photos
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sparrow reborn, Comments
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) ADC commutator bonding specs
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Sparrow docs
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Sparrow docs
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sparrow docs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Sparrow docs
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV digest 3007
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV digest 3007
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sparrow reborn, Comments
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Not.... Just passing it along. Lawrence Rhodes. Still driving a Honda
Civic (when I have to) that gets between 40 and 50 mpg. ULEV
rated.......Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: EV Mode Programming is ALIVE & WELL in US Prius! RE: to the
2004 list.
> That's great Lawrence.
> Thanks for trying this out on your baby first.
> Take your time and good luck,
> Danny
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > This seems like a first step to a gridable Prius. Congrats. Hope
things go
> > well with your experiment. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:20:18 -0000
> > From: "mwbueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: EV Mode Programming is ALIVE & WELL in US Prius!
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > With the help of a very good friend in Europe (I'll share his name
> > when he says OK to do so), I have managed to hook up an EV Button in
> > my '04 and it works!!! Yeah!!!
> >
> > HOOKING IT UP IS SCARY!!!
> > First, I am not going to publish how to do this until I know for
> > certain that nothing is getting hurt as the tie in is quite tricky
> > and involves a small modification to the HV ECU (The Mother
> > Computer) and I don't want to have a bunch of us killing our cars!
> >
> > I promise to keep everyone up to date on testing and pros, cons, amp
> > usage, mileage & etc. I don't have a British Operator's Manual so I
> > am not even certain what it is supposed to be doing yet.
> >
> > I can tell you that if the car is stopped and the ICE is running, if
> > I push the button, the ICE stops immediately and I am allowed to
> > drive in EV mode up to about 30 MPH then it starts with three little
> > chirps from somewhere under the dash.
> >
> > It does seem to allow a fairly healthy amount of amps in EV Mode
> > before the override chirps go off and the ICE starts up to
> > compensate. I will hook up my instrumentation and check all of
> > these things out in more detail over the next few days.
> >
> > Well, I thought this may not be possible and I am very glad that I
> > am wrong!!!!
> >
> > IF I DON'T HURT ANYTHING - I PROMISE TO SHARE
> > If after a little while I can determine it is not hurting us, I will
> > post instructions & pictures & etc. I promise to be prompt.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Wayne
> >
> > I have only tested it for 10 minutes, so I don't know all the
> > particualrs yet.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > This seems like a first step to a gridable Prius. Congrats. Hope
things go
> > well with your experiment. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:20:18 -0000
> > From: "mwbueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: EV Mode Programming is ALIVE & WELL in US Prius!
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > With the help of a very good friend in Europe (I'll share his name
> > when he says OK to do so), I have managed to hook up an EV Button in
> > my '04 and it works!!! Yeah!!!
> >
> > HOOKING IT UP IS SCARY!!!
> > First, I am not going to publish how to do this until I know for
> > certain that nothing is getting hurt as the tie in is quite tricky
> > and involves a small modification to the HV ECU (The Mother
> > Computer) and I don't want to have a bunch of us killing our cars!
> >
> > I promise to keep everyone up to date on testing and pros, cons, amp
> > usage, mileage & etc. I don't have a British Operator's Manual so I
> > am not even certain what it is supposed to be doing yet.
> >
> > I can tell you that if the car is stopped and the ICE is running, if
> > I push the button, the ICE stops immediately and I am allowed to
> > drive in EV mode up to about 30 MPH then it starts with three little
> > chirps from somewhere under the dash.
> >
> > It does seem to allow a fairly healthy amount of amps in EV Mode
> > before the override chirps go off and the ICE starts up to
> > compensate. I will hook up my instrumentation and check all of
> > these things out in more detail over the next few days.
> >
> > Well, I thought this may not be possible and I am very glad that I
> > am wrong!!!!
> >
> > IF I DON'T HURT ANYTHING - I PROMISE TO SHARE
> > If after a little while I can determine it is not hurting us, I will
> > post instructions & pictures & etc. I promise to be prompt.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Wayne
> >
> > I have only tested it for 10 minutes, so I don't know all the
> > particualrs yet.
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > This seems like a first step to a gridable Prius. Congrats. Hope
things go
> > well with your experiment. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:20:18 -0000
> > From: "mwbueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: EV Mode Programming is ALIVE & WELL in US Prius!
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > With the help of a very good friend in Europe (I'll share his name
> > when he says OK to do so), I have managed to hook up an EV Button in
> > my '04 and it works!!! Yeah!!!
> >
> > HOOKING IT UP IS SCARY!!!
> > First, I am not going to publish how to do this until I know for
> > certain that nothing is getting hurt as the tie in is quite tricky
> > and involves a small modification to the HV ECU (The Mother
> > Computer) and I don't want to have a bunch of us killing our cars!
> >
> > I promise to keep everyone up to date on testing and pros, cons, amp
> > usage, mileage & etc. I don't have a British Operator's Manual so I
> > am not even certain what it is supposed to be doing yet.
> >
> > I can tell you that if the car is stopped and the ICE is running, if
> > I push the button, the ICE stops immediately and I am allowed to
> > drive in EV mode up to about 30 MPH then it starts with three little
> > chirps from somewhere under the dash.
> >
> > It does seem to allow a fairly healthy amount of amps in EV Mode
> > before the override chirps go off and the ICE starts up to
> > compensate. I will hook up my instrumentation and check all of
> > these things out in more detail over the next few days.
> >
> > Well, I thought this may not be possible and I am very glad that I
> > am wrong!!!!
> >
> > IF I DON'T HURT ANYTHING - I PROMISE TO SHARE
> > If after a little while I can determine it is not hurting us, I will
> > post instructions & pictures & etc. I promise to be prompt.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Wayne
> >
> > I have only tested it for 10 minutes, so I don't know all the
> > particualrs yet.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John and all,
This is dinosaur country. The name of this creature is a which Japenese
call is a Gojulas Dinosaur type (RBOZ-003), also call Terox and Zoidzilla.
The technical name is Tyrannasaurus.
There are children books that talk about a dinosaur named King Zilla which
is a T-Rex.
Anyway, my choice is a 1000 amp Zilla controller.
My driving is in this one EV is 10 to 15 mph city driving at about 90
percent of the time which is in 1st and 2nd gear with a 20:1 and 13:1 gear
ratios.
This EV does not start up like other EV's. It start's up like a ICE which
bring's the motor up to 500 Rpm, which drives the rotating invertor and
accessories. This reduces the starting load of motor if you tried to turn
on motor while transmission is in gear.
This power unit has driven a EV 1056 miles in 24 hours with speeds up to 92
miles with no problems that weigh 7850 lbs!!!
It has been driven over 300 miles from Detroit to Chicago without stopping
pulling a motor generator unit which can run the EV as a paralla hybred.
The existing controller is factory rated for 600 amps continious and 850
amps max. Battery current was limited to 600 amps at that time. The current
is now limited to 400 amps now for the batteries I have now.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
> Hello to All,
>
> Just have to add my highly technical comments to this:
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Hello Rich,
> >
> > I had ment' to say Zilla, my mind went blank there for a moment. The
> > picture
> > on the Zilla controllers is a T-Rex Dinosaur.
>
> No, it's not a T-Rex Dinosaur. Roland, not a fan of Sci Fi? Catch a
> clue....as in
> 'Zilla...as in Godzilla...as in the fictional Japanese monster....as in
> 'Godzilla vs
> Mothra ( a giant moth monster)!
>
> As the creator of both names for both of these controllers, take note....
>
> (1)
>
> I named Oat's incredibly powerful controller line 'Godzilla', after a wild
> ride in White
> Zombie with the none other than the Luke Skywalker clone, the free spirit
> of Palo Alto,
> Mr. Ebenhosersluzenhouser at the wheel! Oat had just scared the crap out
> of me, when he
> nailed the throttle of my quick EV in the middle of Glisan Street (traffic
> all around us)
> and his mighty new controller (painted an ugly brick red-brown) had sent
> huge amps to the
> electric motor under the hood. The car did a 180 with smoke peeling off
> the rear tires as
> all the blood drained from my face and my sphincters tightened....around
> us, horrified
> commuters had steered clear of us as we could see their looks of shock and
> disgust through
> our smokey haze. I proclaimed, "That's not a controller under the hood,
> it's a
> monster!!...it's....it's...Godzilla!!! Right then and there, Oat's stupid
> idea to call his
> insanely powerful controller 'The Brick' vanished, and the name of
> Godzilla was born (uh,
> well....borrowed).
>
> Subsequent to that day, my assignment was to research the true color of
> Godzilla, so
> Cheryl and I cruised all the local comic book joints and collected as many
> Godzilla rags
> as possible, opening their wonderfully illustrated pages and comparing the
> varying shades
> of green-to-blue green color of Godzilla's frame. We chose the color for
> the Godzilla line
> of controllers, showed it to Oat, then had the first generation
> controllers powder coated
> right here in Portland. Oat was a bit concerned over using the full
> Godzilla name, so it
> was eventually shortened to Zilla.
>
> (2)
>
> When DCP's Damon Crocket and I were scheming together over his new high
> voltage version of
> the Raptor (named by Rod Wilde), a controller that was to be first
> installed along with
> the first prototypes of the Optima group 31's in my 192V Datsun minitruck
> 'Baby Blue', I
> beat Rod to the punch in the 'name that controller' game, and suggested
> 'T-Rex' as a
> worthy prehistoric beast to battle Godzilla. At the time, there was a
> healthy, but
> respectful controller war between Damon and Oat.
>
> The T-Rex's were not super reliable and often fried when high voltage and
> high current
> were applied at the same time. Damon did his best to support and repair
> the flood of
> T-Rexes coming back to him, that against the Godzilla, were no match. He
> eventually shut
> down production of the T-Rex and just made the up-to-156V Raptors in 450,
> 600, and 1200
> amp versions.
>
> Interesting personal notes...
>
> My early version Raptor 1200, one that the Madman had a lot to do with,
> has been flawless
> in Blue Meanie, for something like 5 years now. It cranks out incredible
> power and is a
> wonderful controller. That said, it's soon to be replaced when I finally
> get back to the
> Blue Meanie upgrade soon, with Oat's compact Z 1K Zilla, as the Raptor
> cant go much higher
> than 156V, and at 204V, the Zilla is the answer.
>
> The first-out-the-door T-Rex is still going strong under the hood of Baby
> Blue, now owned
> by my friend John Tuss here in Portland. It gets driven nearly every day,
> and the
> controller has never given any problems. Note though, that it's only been
> subjected to
> 192V, nothing higher, and, with John's relaxed driving style, usually
> never gets called on
> to deliver anything more than 300 amps or so.
>
> Godzilla #3 is still performing well, and other than a recent tune up, has
> never, ever,
> failed....ever! I'd like to say that his controller has been tortured
> under Plasma Boy
> duty, but the truth is, everything 'behind' the controller has been
> tortured...snapped-off
> transmission input shafts, mangled drivelines, smoked clutches,
> twisted-off axles,
> vaporized rear end gears, blown batteries, melted cables, welded
> contactors, melted
> motors....I could go on, but through it all at 1400 amps and up to 336V,
> the controller
> has been the one thing I can't seem to break!
>
>
>
> See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We're back on schedule!
The next meeting of Oregon Electric Vehicle Association will
be at Two World Trade Center at the corner of SW 1st and Salmon.
The courtyard will be available to display electic and hybrid
vehicles from 7:00PM on. Begin gathering at 7:00PM to display
and view vehicles and for socialization.
The meeting will begin at 7:30PM inside, to conclude by 9:00PM.
This will be the first meeting with your new co-chairs, so please
come by and give us a hand.
We are expecting a visit by a class from ITT Tech., so make an
effort to bring vehicles to dazzle them with.
See you all there!
--
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, the date somehow (operator error!) didn't make in into
the notice. Per normal, it will be the second Thursday, which
this month is Feb. 12th.
And feel free to check the OEVA web site (www.oeva.org) for directions.
--
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With all this talk of killing Raptors and T-Rexes, I am, like Ben A.
growing slightly nervous about installing a 1000A T-Rex in my 192
(maybe 240V) 240Z with the full intention of beating the crap out of
the controller with my foot on the floor all the time. When I began my
conversion DCP had just stopped production and Otmar had not yet
announced the Zilla. In an oh-god-I-can't-use-a-cursit-in-my-z-car
panic , I bought the first T-Rex I could find. A week or two later,
the zillas were announced. crap. Again, I have every intention of
sucking as many amps as I possibly can as often as possible. I know
you can't tell for sure, but how likely do you guys (rich?) think I am
of toasting the T-Rex by treating it like this at 192V? In that case,
anyone interested in buying it for a lower power conversion? When it
lets go, will it go peacefully, or will it plaster my under-hood with
black smoke? here's wanting a zilla,
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
has anyone EVER fried a zilla? and what makes the zilla so much more
robust than a DCP anyway? I imagine obviously different/more
FETs/IGBTs, but are we talking different transistor packages as well,
like to247 vs isotop or anything? better heatsinking? greatly
overrated diodes etc? better current monitoring? electrically curious,
seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> I ment' to say Zilla-1000, is a Zilla a T-Rex dinosaur as picture on the
> controller?
>
> Roland
>
OK OK I understand.
I am with you on the Z1K, Since you loads on teh Cableform have been
mostly less than 1000 amps. With a water cooled stage, and caution, this
is plenty for your appllication.
Otmar wants you to go for a 2000 amp unit because it gives you some
overhead in the desing, and it's his best efforts to make a
indestructable controller.
At over 1000 amp just about any controller can melt down a motor, if we
have enough battery power to support the full current. The only motor
that I have seen that can take everything we could find was a interpoled
GE 11 incher that Damon still has in his Rx-7.
Of course Dennis will chime in here about his GE 11 But with 10 years
and 20Grand of motor mods it's anything BUT stock.
So I think 1000 amp is fine water cooled of course.
I have a 2000 amper water cooled .....When I can get Rod to let me play
with it in the Gone Poastal van.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> There are two choices... 1) Larger load bank or 2) smaller room.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
100 amps ??? snort! the minbike drive makes more amps that that...
Larger motor, More amps and bigger fans. MORE SILICON!!!MORE MORE MORE!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
>
> My sympathies to Jim!
>
> So my understanding from recent posts is that DCP controllers, while
> excellent, all things considered, are still somewhat fragile, and that
> since they're no longer supported, breaking one would be a painful
> experience. This does have me a bit concerned, since I have a T-Rex
> 1000 that's yet to be installed. I actually got it from Jim himself.
> I have yet to install it, but hearing about exploding Raptors is making
> me a bit nervous, since it was my understanding that they're the rugged
> ones. It's not that I'm expecting the T-Rex was abused, just that I
> don't want to be too hard on it.
>
> What's necessary to ensure that my T-Rex doesn't meet the same fate? I
> think someone mentioned keeping them dry. Going easy on them sounds
> like a common suggestion too, but I gather Jim was only drawing 600A on
> his Raptor 1200? Or was that battery side?
>
> I'm actually already afraid to let loose with my T-Rex at 1000A as it
> is, lest I break my poor Porsche 914's cute little transmission, but
> how much current is safe for the controller? If I'm running 192V
> (possibly 240V), where should I be drawing the line? To make matters
> worse I do live in a rather hilly area, though I don't expect to be
> facing any quite like the one that killed Jim's Raptor, plus my car
> shouldn't weigh much more than 3000lbs.
>
> "Get a Zilla" is a nice idea (they are gorgeous!), but I'm trying hard
> to keep the cost down. Of course, what better way to drive up the cost
> than to let the smoke out of a controller? Hence I don't want it to
> come to that.
>
> Thanks for your input
> -Ben
IF the Red Led comes on, back off and let it cool down. Rex will heat up
quickly. Don't try that full amp 4th gear launch!, use the lowest gears
you can. This stresses the didoes the least.
No worry too much it the time is near the end, it just happens. They
are suppoed to make 1000 motor amps and or 1000 battery amps if the
motor can spin that high.
So.. be nice but don't be ridiculas about it.
When mine go.. I will either call Otmar or decend into my parts bins and
make my own.
Or do both...
As I recall the lowest end Zilla is cheaper than a full bore Raptor was.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 9 Feb 2004 at 9:45, Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > Where did they get these sorts of numbers?
>
> >From somewhere that you can't see any daylight.
> Now I understand why pack
> life was such a problem with Sparrows.
Humm... This is only part of the problems. My
previous 2 packs of batteries (YTs) lasted only about
3000 miles eventhough the average DOD was about 7-8Ah
and the deepest DOD was about 25Ah. And, I had
PowerCheqs installed.
Since then, I have done a lot of research and
experiments to find out the root cause. I made my own
battery cycler, drilled holes and added water to my
YTs, added thermostats to improve battery cooling. I
also made my own Ang Regs to solve the problems. My
current pack lasted 16,000 miles. And, it was in a
better shape then the last 2 packs at end of life.
After replacing 5 weakest ones with some used
batteries, I am still commuting in my Sparrow every
day. Although some might say that my current pack is
Orbital instead of YT, most Sparrows with Orbitals
also lasted about 4000 miles.
The cause of my battery failures was grid corrosion --
battery voltage stayed high at no to low load. But,
at high load, it would drop below 10.5V. And, the
root cause of this is the combination of excessive
equalization cycles, poor battery balance, and poor
battery temperature regulation.
Sparrows come with a Zivan NG3 charger that goes thru
a 2A one-hour equalization cycle on every charge.
This happens no matter how shallow the discharge cycle
is. This is excessive. Batteries heat up very
quickly in this stage. And, if this is done once in
the morning and once after lunch, it is very likely
that you will overheat the batteries when you charge
it again after getting home in the evening. In summer
time, like many Sparrow owners had experienced, you
will get thermal-runaway that might severely damage
the batteries.
This problem is multiplied by the battery compartments
(especially the underseat compartment) that were
designed like a ice chase. Batteries would stay hot
even after a night in my cold garage. And, they were
subjected to the same abuse again the next day.
At first, a lot of us tried doing equalization only
once every 10 cycles (Corbin also recommended this
after having to replace a lot of batteries). This
helped to an extend. But, since the NG3 is set to
14.7V per battery, the pack would start to go
out-of-balanced rather quickly and this cause some
batteries to get severely overcharged/undercharged
overtime.
Sparrows turned out to be a very good platform to
learn about these SLA's. You have more than 100 of
them with the same charging configuration in active
use every day.
I have learned so much about these batteries that it
is impossible to write in an email message.
Ed Ang
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> I might make a few suggestions...
>
> Add film caps (I don't remember seeing any), better connection from
> the DC bus electrolytic capacitors to the power silicon array as a
> start. A current sensor on the motor loop so you know what you are
> doing when you drive.
>
> Seth
>
> don't need any film caps, they used Cornell caps 380XLs 105 C high ripple rate.
The cap bank Did have a single MKP 10 film cap on it. Or was that my
MiniBike cap board?? Also the Caps bank was connected to the power stage
with 3 on a side brass .250 stand offs that had a LOT of brass for
conduction. They were .7500 from the actuall silicon.
The current sensor on the motor loop would have made the day. Damon
tried this on some of the last T-Rexes, and it didn't do much for
longevity.
What Should be done is have a micro or DSP based current controll loop
as the primary control algorythm... Just like Otmar does.
Then the power silicon should be screwed to a copper plate that is then
isolated from the heatsink. The fast temp sensors and therrmal safeties
are bonded to the copper heat spreaders. .......Just like Otmars Zillas.
Damon used T-Gon thermal interface material between every device and
the heat sink. Standard setup, that was used well in the inverter world.
But in this world it magnifies the thermal unequalization effects for
each device. Fet were kinda safe IGBS in the T-Rexes was just a
nightmare.
There were also some really nasty current control issues in the gate
drives. 5 micro seconds blanking, just doesn't cut it on 360 volts and
Igbts and large arcing motors. PFC chargers have about 500 nSec
blanking. And faster if I can get it.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
anyone got any more photos/video from the recent nedra event that are
not posted on the nedra site?
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn
> On 9 Feb 2004 at 1:15, Brad Waddell wrote:
>
> > Here is the web site for the new sparrow company - more EV's on the
road!
> >
> > http://www.phoenixenvironmentalmotors.com/Sparrow%20Home%20Page.htm
> >
>
> At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose it
> well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they had
> in the earlier versions of the car.
>
> I read the home page for Phoenix, though, and what I saw there doesn't
give
> me a whole lot of confidence for the future of this operation. Not sure I
> can explain why, it's just a notion. Keep your fingers crossed.
Hi EVerybody
What a nice morning surprise to see the new startup for the Sparrow,
while I'm not a real fan of the Sparrow concept, I feel that it is too good
to die of stupid stuff, as it did the first go-round. My first reaction, do
we Listers know this/these guyz?? Are they for real? Hey Dave Chapman, Rick
Prior, and the Phoenix chapter of EAA? Yuse guys hafta check this one out,
they are in your 'hood. Maybe the New Sparrow Corp would like some good
input from the Lost Garus, unlike the Corbin regeme. I see it as a chance,
if they are open to problem solving, would take advice from guys like, say,
Lee Hart, Otmar,Plasma Boy, Rod, Jerry Dycus a 3 wheeler guy, just to
mention a few here.
May I hope that the powers that be come on List. If you are already?
Great! We're here to help, We want to see ya succeed. Takes a lota guts to
dive right in to a biz that isn't easy to startup, or make a living at!
Would be nice to see a few US companies doing this. The Chinese are coming,
though, what with batteries and serious talk of EV's in China, to clean up
the air, and with their politics favoring it, unlike here. Sure be nice if
GM would sell the manufacturing rites of the EV 1 to them, along with the
tooling to build the cars. Bet it is being junked as I speak? Like Packard,
MUST have sold the works for the Last Packards to the Chinese /Russians, or
how come their Red Flags and Zil Limos looked like Packard Clippers, through
the 50-60's Remember the old newsreals?
Off topic AGAIN, sorry, but Best Wishes to Phoenix WhatEVer Motor Works,
Go for it guys!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, I just got a response from Advanced DC concerning their commutators
which are made by one of their sister companies. SERMED is located in
France.
Roderick,
I have received a response from SERMED and it states the following:
The molding compound that we use will survive a 220 C temperature for a
rating of 50 hours.
Its lifetime is a minimum of 20,000 hours at a temperature of 170 C. I have
received a specification sheet from our manufacturer that lists other
mechanical, electrical, and physical properties but nothing that jumps out
as answering what temperature will lead to a destructive failure of our
commutator. I guess a person could use some assumptions that the
temperature would easily be in excess of 250 C for a reasonably long period
of time prior to a weakening of the compound's integrity leading to the
commutator failure. Other things that can happen would be to break a weld
due to high current draws or poor welding at the armature winding and
commutator bar interface. Either way its clearly in excess of the Class H
rating of the remainder of the motor component's if the commutator molding
is above 250 C..
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed:
*Very* interesting. One of the reasons I watch the Sparrow lists so
closely is because it's one of the few production cars that come close
to matching the batteries in my Prizm.
2 hours does sound like a long time. The Magnecharger does an equalize
on every charge (Takes the whole pack to 15 volts per battery then to
15.6 for 50 minutes, <1 amp max) and I have wondered if that is a good
thing or not. Well, it's true that I have a long string, but the Hawker
manuals say to do this so....
The only time I had a case of thermal runaway was with the old pack and
the Dolphin charger. It happily overheated a battery while cooking along
at 2 amp charge rate one night; oops. The MC should prevent that with
the array of temp sensors; we shall see.
The symptoms of grid corrosion sound slightly familiar to me (nice 13
volts at no load, sinks like rock under 100amp load after awhile). Do
they sink immediately after charge, or is the range simply reduced?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ed:
>
> *Very* interesting. One of the reasons I watch the
> Sparrow lists so
> closely is because it's one of the few production
> cars that come close
> to matching the batteries in my Prizm.
>
> 2 hours does sound like a long time. The
> Magnecharger does an equalize
> on every charge (Takes the whole pack to 15 volts
> per battery then to
> 15.6 for 50 minutes, <1 amp max) and I have wondered
> if that is a good
> thing or not. Well, it's true that I have a long
> string, but the Hawker
> manuals say to do this so....
Not 2 hours. 2 Amps for one hour. Actually, this is
the recommended charging curve by Optima. I don't
think it is the best curve. It is the easiest and the
fastest curve. And, to do this properly, battery
temperature has to be regulated.
>
> The only time I had a case of thermal runaway was
> with the old pack and
> the Dolphin charger. It happily overheated a battery
> while cooking along
> at 2 amp charge rate one night; oops. The MC should
> prevent that with
> the array of temp sensors; we shall see.
>
> The symptoms of grid corrosion sound slightly
> familiar to me (nice 13
> volts at no load, sinks like rock under 100amp load
> after awhile). Do
> they sink immediately after charge, or is the range
> simply reduced?
SLA's should have a very nice (close to linear)
voltage versus capacity graph under the same load. In
other words, say you put a 25A load on it, its voltage
would decrease slowly 13 ... 12.5 ... 12.0 ... 11.5
... 11.0 ... 10.5. A battery with corroded grids
would behave like a good battery until about 11.5V or
so. After that, its voltage drops like a rock to
below 10.5V. But, if the load is removed, its voltage
would bounce almost immediately above 12V.
A battery at its normal end-of-life would show the
same voltage curve, but at a much steeper slop (like a
smaller battery) and without a sharp voltage drop at
the end. Also, its voltage would rise very slowly
after the load is removed.
However, most of the time, you will get an old battery
that went thru a normal end-of-life, but with grid
corrosion. This is because grid corrosion is also a
normal failure mode for a SLA. But, in the case of
the Sparrow, this failure is prematured.
I made a lot of other observations. For example, a
battery that was discharged to below 9V or so would
behave very differently both during recharge and
discharge. Older batteries would take a lot more
abuse without developing a shorted cell etc...
There is not a single "perfect" charging curve. Every
charging curve is a trade-off between battery life,
charging time, cost, and ease of implementations.
And, most of all, it is very difficult to test a
specific charging curve because the simple acts of
charging and discharging the battery alter its
behavior. And, resting time between each
charge-discharge cycle also has a big impact on its
capacity.
Ed Ang
>
> Chris
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, I was a bit hasty.
Still, I followed most of the instructions on wiring up this Emeter I bought
from a fellow EVer.
I indeed see readings in all the modes, but the Bat Current display so far
indicates from -500 to -520 or so, amps while underway in my e-boat....
One EV lister thought he had read that this was an indication of a fried
front-end.
Is that the only thing which can cause this?
Perhaps one of my shunt wires is flailing around?
If it is a fried front-end, can I repair this myself, or do I trust Xantrex
to do so if they can even do it?
I should've taken e-list recommendations of wiring a connector to the
e-meter and to all the power and signal wires. As it was, I wired
the -Pack, then +Pack, then +24v, finally attaching the shunt wires to the
meter. I now know that the shunt wires should've been wired up first.
So, did I torch something, or can an EE like me desolder/solder a component
in the meter to fix?
Now, I haven't charged the pack yet---perhaps the Emeter doesn't correctly
read current until this first charge after installation happens?
Thanks for any insights...
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> 2 hours does sound like a long time. The Magnecharger does an equalize
> on every charge (Takes the whole pack to 15 volts per battery then to
> 15.6 for 50 minutes, <1 amp max) and I have wondered if that is a good
> thing or not.
There's a problem with a fixed equalization:
1. If you pick a low equalizing voltage/current/time, you won't
murder the pack from excessive equalization. But the pack is
likely to drift out of equalization. When a battery *does*
need equalization, you won't give it enough extra charge to
bring it back into balance. The unbalance will persist.
2. If you pick a high equalizing voltage/current/time, you keep
the pack in balance. But it dies early from overcharging.
Thus, I feel you need some sort of scheme that regulates how often and
how hard you equalize, according to how much the batteries actually
need. It could be manual (hit a button to equalize as needed). It could
be controlled by individual battery monitors. Or it could use individual
regulators.
> The only time I had a case of thermal runaway was with the old pack
> and the Dolphin charger. It happily overheated a battery while
> cooking along at 2 amp charge rate one night; oops.
This illustrates another key problem. Most chargers assume a nice, new
pack. They don't program them to work with old batteries. As the pack
gets old, or cold, or out of balance etc. the charger winds up murdering
the old pack by treating it the same as a new pack.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>
> On 9 Feb 2004 at 9:45, Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > Where did they get these sorts of numbers?
>
> >From somewhere that you can't see any daylight. Now I understand why pack
> life was such a problem with Sparrows.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> All we learn from history is history repeats.
>
> -- Andrew Ratshin
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Hey folks... Sparrow hacks and the true believers.
There are some really serious EVers involved with the rebirth of the
Sparrow. So instead of throwing Rocks at them, lets help them out. Clare
Bell is busting butt to help ,Peter Senkowsky is trying to get the
chassis in line, and I am trying to get the charger and BMS system on
line. So...
We need to filter the old Add copy claims, and return to the sales guys
what's expected, Vs what is EV BS. The AC drive Sparrow is the best idea
coming. But it's gonna have all the teething issues the DC drives had,
with a bunch that the DC guys simply don't have to deal with.
They want to claim for milage what is safe and prudent, and testable
to. They want to get to 150 to 300 miles range with Lions, but are
clearly aware of the cost and the massive BMS equipment that will me
needed to support that kind of level of technology.
They are slowly turning on the lights back on the Sparrow, and want to
do so without the Hype and half truths that marked Sparrow by Corbin.
So Correct them, and offer what you see as "bad data" to them as
something they might want to correct.
I think a really well done chassis(aka NO drive train drag) could really
add to the range. There were a LOT of things on most Sparrows that added
to the less than average range and power needs.
I tried to help Tom Corbin in the early days of the DC drives, and will
help those who try now days. I sure hope honest charging will solve the
life span of the battery system.
They have a lot of stock in old parts, and probably some old Website
files that need some updating.
These guys are the ones that took over Sparrow, because they
care...Lets give them a fresh start.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Brush advance has very little effect on efficiency. You adjust it to
> >> minimize arcing.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Are you sure? I haven't tied this on seres wound motors, but I have
> > with PM motors. On PM motors, brush advance effects efficiency, RPM,
> > current, torque, etc. This is at voltage below arcing voltage though.
>
> I didn't say "no" effect :-) But brush advance has very little effect
> on efficiency at the small advance angles normally used to control
> arcing (5-10 degrees).
>
> Large changes in brush advance have a progressively larger effect on the
> torque-speed curves and efficiency.
Really Lee???
It has a massive effect when you are running the motor at 10 to 20
times it's name plate power levels.
I don't think you really have a grasp of how far and fast the timing
goes to hell on most of our street driven EV motors.
Since you are one of our esteamed EV list Gurus with LOTS of math and
text book training, Care to do the math on where the brushes "Should
be".
At any given load and RPM?
Now back that up with the amp data that Otmar collected from CalPopE.
What would be his perfect brush settings??? At all the listed Amp
numbers?
Oh just to make it clear what perfect is, it's "flux is Orthongal to the
field lines being cut" . So just correct back to 90 Deg to the Armature
windings directly under the center of the field pole shoes.
Please don't just quote the "Very little effect" Dogma. It has a very
large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
Taking your last quote inside out:
large amp changes have a large effect on brush advance setting, and so
do on the torque speed curves as well as efficiency.
It's the same concept. With really big amps, brush static timing becomes
really Bad. This clearly effects the watts into VS the watts out the
motor shaft.
Of course if you run the motor inside it's design curves, You are pretty
much right.
I have never been acused of that!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Mark Thomasson wrote:
> > How much brush advance do you recommend for best efficiency?
>
> Brush advance has very little effect on efficiency. You adjust it to
> minimize arcing.
>
> It's pretty much a trial-and-error process. Ideally, you would have
> adjustable brush rigging, and adjust the brushes for minimal arcing
> while running the motor at the maximum expected load (highest voltage
> and current).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
The correct answer is minimal arcing at the loads and RPM you expect to
spend most of your time at.
LIGHT street use is 5 to 10 Deg advance.
Heavy street is 10+ Deg
Racing 10 to 15, and tune for best ET.
Anything with regen or plug braking is neutral or 0 Deg.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn, Comments
>
> Hi EVerybody
>
> What a nice morning surprise to see the new startup for the Sparrow,
> while I'm not a real fan of the Sparrow concept, I feel that it is too
good
> to die of stupid stuff, as it did the first go-round. My first reaction,
do
> we Listers know this/these guyz?? Are they for real? Hey Dave Chapman,
Rick
> Prior, and the Phoenix chapter of EAA? Yuse guys hafta check this one out,
> they are in your 'hood. Maybe the New Sparrow Corp would like some good
> input from the Lost Garus, unlike the Corbin regeme. I see it as a chance,
> if they are open to problem solving, would take advice from guys like,
say,
> Lee Hart, Otmar,Plasma Boy, Rod, Jerry Dycus a 3 wheeler guy, just to
> mention a few here.
>
> May I hope that the powers that be come on List. If you are already?
> Great! We're here to help, We want to see ya succeed. Takes a lota guts to
> dive right in to a biz that isn't easy to startup, or make a living at!
> Would be nice to see a few US companies doing this. The Chinese are
coming,
> though, what with batteries and serious talk of EV's in China, to clean up
> the air, and with their politics favoring it, unlike here. Sure be nice if
> GM would sell the manufacturing rites of the EV 1 to them, along with the
> tooling to build the cars. Bet it is being junked as I speak? Like
Packard,
> MUST have sold the works for the Last Packards to the Chinese /Russians,
or
> how come their Red Flags and Zil Limos looked like Packard Clippers,
through
> the 50-60's Remember the old newsreals?
>
> Off topic AGAIN, sorry, but Best Wishes to Phoenix WhatEVer Motor
Works,
> Go for it guys!
>
Sorry to spoil your morning surprise, but there is no new Sparrow startup
company.
There is only a collection of empty body shells and assorted parts left over
from
the Corbin bankruptcy and two or three people trying to identify the stuff
and make
some use of it.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
