EV Digest 3348
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sparrow reborn
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV news, lead acid as hybrid battery
by George Tylinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Prius NiMH Battery & New PbA replacements
by Robert Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ampabout - new batts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Dauphine power
by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: ampabout - new batts
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: odd car on eBay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Finally back online, newbie question @ 'hi-lo' controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Sparrow reborn, in Phoenix???
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Sparrow rear suspension was reborn, Comments
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor blower requirement
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: death of a DCP raptor - Schottky's
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: nedra photos
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: death of a DCP raptor - Schottky's
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: nedra photos
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 11:56:07PM -0800, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> Doug, If you are going to use it at 120 volts or above, please
> advance the timing. I beg you.
>From personal experience, I can second that!
http://alan.batie.org/photos/nikon/001023-motor/dscn0001-1024.html
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
T Humphrey wrote:
>
> Well Rich,
>
> Since you are "on the inside" let the powers to be know that I
> want a:
>
> Merlin
> DC Powered
> Z1K controlled
> PFC-20/30 charged
> Orbitals, temp comp regulated
> Wayland sound system
>
> Under $19k
>
> Hmmm.... A 3 wheeled Tango Jr Ragtop.....cool...
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
> >The Ac drive in a Sparrow is NOT the quick cure... it's the
> expensive cure
> >that will have alot of issues.
> >Wait until they have a real road test of the AC drives.
> > We all said a Ac drive was the way to go but it cost twice
> the list
> >price of the Sparrow. I am pretty sure that has not changed much.
> >time will tell.
> >
> >--
> >Rich Rudman
> >Manzanita Micro
> >www.manzanitamicro.com
> >1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> >
>
>
>
>
I think they said $20K you add the sound system. Merlin later this year
or next.
Z1k most likely
PFC30
Mk2 regualted and Temp comped and Regbuss proteted.
Orbital or Yts or Blue tops, or like same VRLA for startes.
Call John for good noise levels.
They DO have to raise the price , for the reality of remanufacturing a
good chunk of the vehicle.
They are not going to promise all a rose garden, and not deliver
They are going to deliver, and hand you the bill.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Behalf Of Roy LeMeur
> Subject: Re: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
> A good example Joe, and a good end run around the point.
I don't mind you guys being focused on the issue of solid core wires being
bad (and indeed, except for use in protoboards and a few other places I
agree).
Still, folks should take note that if they see their E-meter read a current
of around -500 when there isn't any significant batt current, don't panic,
it could be they simply have a disconnect in the shunt sense wires.
I didn't know that.
The manual didn't suggest it.
No EV list email suggested it.
No web page references suggested it.
My conclusion was that I fried the E-meter front end because I connected the
shunt sense wires last instead of first. Instead, the E-meter is at least
that robust (or I was lucky?), and indeed it was telling the truth, that its
sense inputs saw approx. 50mv.
It just would have helped to have had an APP NOTE somewhere (preferrably
Xantrex) explaining that open shunt inputs will or may drift to the negative
rail.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I test drove an AC drive Sparrow at the 1998 Alameda International Electric
Vehicle Exposition. Not only was it gutless but it sounded like someone
through a bunch of nuts and bolts in a washing machine. I can truthfully say
that I wasn't impressed. Corbin would be making a big mistake in going away
from the ADC 203-06-4004 motor. We run two of them direct drive on a two ton
electric postal van with extra advance and a 2000 amp Zilla running 240
volts of Excide XCD Orbitals. We have checked the brushes and everything
looks good. PS: I wrote the new owner of Sparrow a letter. I'll let you all
know his response. I wasn't very kind about the past. I said that I gave him
this information so that he doesn't repeat the actions of his predecessors.
Roderick
Suck Amps EV Racing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn
>
>
> > >
> > > At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose
> > > it
> > > well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they
> > > had
> > > in the earlier versions of the car.
> >
> > How alarming! I bought one of the Sparrow motors (ADC part number
> > 203-06-4004) for my EV. What was wrong with them?
> >
> > From reading the list, I had gotten the impression that Sparrows tended
> > to kill their batteries. I hadn't heard anything about motor problems.
> >
> Corbin Motors did indeed build prototypes of Sparrows with AC drive
systems.
> If my memory serves me well there were two of them built in the summer of
> 2002. Corbin's web site described the effort and said that the AC drive
> system
> performed very well. I haven't heard a thing since and still wonder how
> well
> they indeed did perform and what became of the AC Sparrows.
>
> Some of the ADC motors, perhaps all ot them, came from the factory with
> no brush advance which caused serious motor problems. Corbin ignored the
> advice and pleas of experienced EVers like Rich Rudman to advance the
> brushes.
> Some owners did advance the brushes or have someone do it for them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
> One thing that is meant to dramatically reduce brush wear and arcing is
>spiral grooving the commutator. It's similar to the idea behind grooved
>brake disks. The groove 'sweeps' the current across the face of the brush
>and utilises the area better.
SNIP
> Cedric went to silver loaded brushes in high performance versions of his
motor.
SNIP
>To cope with this Molybdenem Disulphide is added to the brushes.
> Cedric was able to break the 90% efficiency barrier at 24v with these
> brushes.
>
> Paul Compton
> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
Paul, very interesting on the comm spiral cutting. Would like to hear more
on it if you have the info, IE depth and tpi count? Also on the brushes
Cedric used are these something reasonably obtainable and from whom?
Regards, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Near the end is an interesting technique used for battery
management.
http://www.e4engineering.com/item.asp?id=51185&type=News&ch=e4e_automotive
>From The Engineer, 09 February 2004, in Automotive
Acid test
UK engineers are poised to road test a lead acid battery
designed to make hybrid electric vehicles more affordable for
the mass market.
Within the next few weeks the battery will be fitted to a Honda
Insight hybrid car and put through its paces at the Millbrook
Proving Grounds in Bedfordshire.
The planned 50,000-mile test is the culmination of a
three-yearproject, Rholab, to adapt traditional lead acid
technology for the hybrid engine era.
Rholab hopes to demonstrate that valve-regulated lead acid
battery can be a viable alternative to the more expensive
nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) power packs used in the first
generation of HEVs such as the Insight and the Toyota Prius.
Conventional lead acid batteries are poorly equipped for the
unique demands of hybrid cars, prompting the Rholab consortium's
bid to overcome key technical barriers and create a viable
alternative.
This included developing a modified power cell and chemistry,
and designing a battery able to interface with the complex
electronic systems needed to manage a hybrid car (see sidebar).
Allan Cooper of the European Advanced Lead Acid Battery
Consortium, project co-ordinator for Rholab, said: 'We are
confident that the battery will run the car. The question is
whether we get the life out of it.'
The team hopes to run the Insight for 50,000 miles, subjecting
it to a range of conditions including urban, high speed and hill
climbing.
Cooper said the project partners would be 'cracking open the
champagne' if the car went the full distance. 'That would be a
very good start. It represents about five years' worth of
standard driving.'
He claimed NiMH batteries can be up to six times more expensive
than lead acid power packs. 'If we can go down the lead acid
route it could be significant step towards making HEVs more
widely affordable,' he said.
The other Rholab partners are Hawker Batteries, vehicle
electronics specialist Provector and the universities of Warwick
and Sheffield. The project operated as part of the UK Foresight
Vehicle Programme, which helps R&D into new automotive
technologies.
Even if the Rholab battery can run the Honda hybrid, Cooper
admitted there would be some way to go before convincing the car
industry to take the lead acid route.A follow-on project, called
Isolab, is already underway to build on the Rholab
developments.One particularly tricky issue facing lead acid is
likely to be weight - currently a major bugbear for the
automotive industry.
Although the Insight Rholab battery takes up a roughly
equivalent space in the car it is heavier, adding about 4.4 per
cent to the overall vehicle weight.
Cooper said it would be possible to shed a significant amount of
the excess weight in a production version of the battery. 'This
has to be seen very much as a prototype,' he said.He conceded,
however, that it was unlikely to reach weight equivalence with
nickel-metal batteries.
Sidebar: How the 19th cell comes into play
The 144V Rholab battery pack was designed to meet the unique and
complex demands of hybrid electric vehicles.
To operate as the auxiliary power source in an HEV, a battery
has to exist in a partially charged state and to be able to
deliver or receive high current pulses according to need.
Under these operating conditions a lead acid battery's capacity
can quickly decline due to an effect known as negative plate
sulphation.
The various Rholab partners have developed a range of solutions
to these and other potential limitations of the lead acid
battery.
A major focus has been the individual battery cell. Rholab uses
a new, spirally wound, dual-tab cell. This has a current
take-off for both the positive and negative plates at each end,
helping to get high power in and out of the cell quickly and
improving its life cycle.
To help overcome negative plate sulphation, as well as changing
the negative plate's chemistry, Rholab regularly brings each
cell up to a full state of charge. This means temporarily
removing one cell from service. To this end Rholab uses 19
rather than 18 cells in each 36V battery module. At any one time
the 'spare' 19th cell will be undergoing conditioning, or can
even be removed from service altogether in the event of failure.
This degree of monitoring and control of individual cells
requires a sophisticated battery management system (BMS). Within
Rholab, Provector, with the help of Warwick Manufacturing Group,
has designed a BMS that fulfils these requirements without
incurring prohibitively high production costs.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Same seller here is the complete driveline.
Looking for 1500.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=46098&item=2459235130
Looks like an interesting start to Contnversion.
FYI I have no connection with the seller.
Bob
At 07:18 PM 2/9/04 -0800, Lightning Ryan wrote:
There is a 02 Prius pack on e-bay for $375 and with no bids yet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2459235299&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1
Interesting stuff, looking to replace expensive NiMH with more
affordable yet highly umm, managed, PbA for use in Hybrids.
http://www.e4engineering.com/item.asp?id=51185&type=news
L8r
Ryan
Bob Brooks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are."
- ee cummings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The US Battery spec calls for 2.583/cell at 80F so Bruce's 171v
> is correct. I'd be interested in knowing if people are following
> US's recommendation or going with the lower "Trojan" voltages.
Of course you should always go with the battery manufacturer's
recommendations, unless you have good reasons to deviate.
But, you should recognize that this voltage is for a full equalizing
charge for new batteries. It's something you would only need to do after
a deep discharge or some other circumstance where it is likely that the
cells are out of balance.
Also, you didn't mention the current. A new battery can tolerate this
voltage because the charging current will come down to a reasonably low
level (like 2% of its amphour capacity, i.e. 240ah x 0.02 = 4.8 amps).
But if you try this with an old or hot battery, the current will NOT
fall this low; instead, the battery will keep drawing a higher current,
get hotter and hotter, and be gassing furiously and losing water. Not
something you want to do!
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roy LeMeur wrote:
> Show me _one_ OEM vehicle with an insulated single strand of wire run.
Look inside all of the electronics. No electronic component uses
stranded wire. But, the designers expect that the parts will be mounted
in some manner to avoid any movement.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim,
Perhaps you would want to sell the Feeway to finance the new project. Most
of us have to do that. Is the Freeway listed on the EValbum? ...
I just checked and there is only one Freeway on the Album.
"Owner: Michael A. Perry
Location: Springfield/Eugene, Oregon
Email:
Base Vehicle: H-M Vehicles FreeWay"
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/053.html
Certainly is a unique looking vehicle!
What $ do you think it would bring?
Don Buckshot
Kansas City, MO area ...
95 Solectria E10 pickup
96 Solectria Force Pba 4 door
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tim Medeck
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Dauphine power
>From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Do you need/want to keep driving the Freeway Electric while working
>on
>this project? I'm not sure what all it has but perhaps you could borrow
>some parts from it for the 'quick & dirty' Renault. Then do the second
>one nice, then take the first apart and return the pieces.
There aren't any parts on the Freeway that I can really use. It has a Scott
PM motor and contactors.
>And where abouts do you live? As in what type of terrain and temperatures?
Central Minnesota, no big hills, sometimes REALLY cold.
Tim Medeck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok I am seeing your lack of thought.... slight..but significant..
> > > The motors won't care about the 6Khz PWM it cares about the 60Hz or the
> > > rotational Hertz, NOT the base PWM.
> >
> > It's rather simple Rich, before we get to eddy losses and laminations:
> >
> > Find a 400 Hz aircraft transformer and plug it in 60 Hz
> > outlet with the same voltage. Let the smoke out of it, and
> > then reply to me with what do you think why it happened.
> I am going tolet Joe answer this one.
> I don't have the EE to battle you on this one.
> It's the V/F ratio... Of each motor. Not the transformers.
I do have EE, but based on Lee's replies seems like I
have to start over... He will reply to Joe then. OK?
Just in case, disclaimer:
No Warranties of any sort for the MES or Siemens motors
running off of 60 Hz grid. No matter how educated the user is.
Even Lee :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The "motor problem" was Corbin never set them up right.
> The Ac drive in a Sparrow is NOT the quick cure... it's the expensive
> cure that will have alot of issues.
> Wait until they have a real road test of the AC drives.
> We all said a Ac drive was the way to go but it cost twice the list
> price of the Sparrow.
> I am pretty sure that has not changed much.
> time will tell.
I just wonder what kind of AC drive cost $24k (list price of Sparrow
is $12k, is it?). Even best OEM drives are less expensive than that.
Any info on this Rich? Corbin may be ripped off shopping in wrong
place or for the wrong thing. (That is, unless $24k include charging/
BMS/all integrated hardware and, may be the batteries
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, the US battery website says 2.583 vpc (they don't mention a
current for this phase) for 2 to 4 hours for a "typical" charge. This is
equal to what trojan recommends for an equalizing voltage.
USB doesn't list an equalizing voltage.
I think this has been discussed before, and I vaguely recall Nawaz saying
that the USB's needed/could take the higher voltage. Not sure though.
I made a spreadsheet with the upper and lower limits from trojan, and the
USB limit on it, and adjustments for various temperatures. I use the middle
reading for the appropriate temperature as a "target" voltage, then
terminate charge 30 minutes to an hour after all the batteries are bubbling
lightly. This may be above or below the "target." If I want to equalize, I
use the upper limit for the appropriate temperature and let them bubble
heavily for the same amount of time.
Of course this requires closely monitoring, but I have the kind of charger
(BC-20) that requires that anyway.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:13 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ampabout - new batts
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > The US Battery spec calls for 2.583/cell at 80F so Bruce's 171v is
> > correct. I'd be interested in knowing if people are following US's
> > recommendation or going with the lower "Trojan" voltages.
>
> Of course you should always go with the battery
> manufacturer's recommendations, unless you have good reasons
> to deviate.
>
> But, you should recognize that this voltage is for a full
> equalizing charge for new batteries. It's something you would
> only need to do after a deep discharge or some other
> circumstance where it is likely that the cells are out of balance.
>
> Also, you didn't mention the current. A new battery can
> tolerate this voltage because the charging current will come
> down to a reasonably low level (like 2% of its amphour
> capacity, i.e. 240ah x 0.02 = 4.8 amps).
> But if you try this with an old or hot battery, the current
> will NOT fall this low; instead, the battery will keep
> drawing a higher current, get hotter and hotter, and be
> gassing furiously and losing water. Not something you want to do!
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> Rich called me to respond to this.
>
> Comments inserted...
> The PWM frequency matters but it is usually minor compared to the other
> losses and effects.
>
> > > It's rather simple Rich, before we get to eddy losses and laminations:
> > >
> > > Find a 400 Hz aircraft transformer and plug it in 60 Hz
> > > outlet with the same voltage. Let the smoke out of it, and
> > > then reply to me with what do you think why it happened.
>
> Too little inductance causes excessive primary current and the copper losses
> overheat the primary copper. To get a 400 Hz transfromer to survive on 60 Hz
> the voltage needs to be reduced proportionally. A 400 Hz 120 VAC transformer
> will work with 60 Hz at 36 volts.
If you read above, I specifically said "60 Hz outlet with the same
voltage*.
Of course, if you apply 1V to the 100V hi freq transformer, even 1 Hz
may be OK.
> > > Back to motors.
> > >
> > > Measure inductance of the stator of a Siemens motor. Few hundred uH,
> > > that's what inverter's software shows. Let's say 200 uH.
> > >
> > > It's impedance is 2pi*f*L. Well, at 60 Hz it's 6.28*60*200e-6=0.075
> > > Ohm, negligible at 60 Hz.
>
> or 0.5 ohms at 400 Hz or 5 ohms at 4 kHz.
I know that. Discussion is about EV motor working of of 60 Hz grid.
>
> > > Now, measure stator windings resistance. 7 mOhm...15 mOhm, depending
> > > on the model. Now, apply 120V 60 Hz 3 phase to the 15 mOhm stator
> > > windings.
>
> Why would you want to hook it up to 120 VAC at 60 Hz? The current needs to
> be controlled by adjusting the voltage.
Because this is what Lee's ASCII example showed.
> The voltage needs to be limited to a
> stay with the safe operating limits of the motor. The resistance
> measurements are at DC conditions. If the rotor is turning, the impedence
> goes up. Measure the voltage going to your motor at 1800 RPM. No doubt that
> it is less than pack voltage.
Yes. To be exact, the pack voltage - EMF. Faster rotation - more EMF,
less left for the motor to work with. Correct?
> The motor impedance will be low when the motor
> is stopped and rises with RPM. The inverter control loop senses current and
> adjusts the voltage as the RPM changes.
Back to Lee's circuit - no controllers or loops, just a phase shift
capacitor.
I said you never can apply *motor rated voltage* at 60 Hz.
100 times lower voltage will not damage anything (because 60 Hz instead
of 6 kHz, 100 times diff) but you can hardly call it "it works".
> Neither of the above calculations take into account the reflected impedance
> of the rotating secondary of the transformer.
>
> > > How much current you get? You'll melt the copper before eddy currents
> > > will warm up the rotor.
>
> The same thing will happen if you connect your batteries directly up to the
> motor. The motor is designed for a limited current per phase. It takes a
> different amount of voltage to produce this current depending on the RPM.
> Using the wrong frequency and/or voltage can easily push the current outside
> these operating limits. Your motor can run at 120 VAC but NOT at 60Hz.
Precisely! This was my original statement. Discussion just drifted away.
> The
> RPM and frequency must be higher to increase the reflected impedance of the
> rotating secondary. Your motor will run at 60 Hz but NOT at 120 VAC, The
> voltage must be lower to stay within the current limits.
Totally agreed. The voltage must be so low, that you may get
1/10th to 1/100th of the rated power then.
>
> No doubt, it is the current that gets Rich in trouble. High voltage is the
> tool he uses to get the current to flow.
Yes. Look at this - using motors as they specified is almost wrong
thing - every EVer overpowers it. Normal ones - 2-3 times.
Racers - 10-20 times. What do you expect? No one considers to just pick
right motor for the duty - not exciting or expensive.
Blowing things up - that's fun.
> Torque is approximately proportional to current.
> Voltage is approximately proportional to RPM.
> Fixed frequency gives a narrow operating RPM based only on slip.
> You will not get enough RPM out of a high frequency motor at (60 Hz) to get
> anywhere close to full power even though you are getting full torque at full
> current.
Good, we agree on everything. So I dare to think I know how an
induction motor works :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the Horsepower is 2 or less it can be a moped in California. Lawrence
Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: odd car on eBay
> On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 08:49 AM, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
>
> > This looks like a very lightweight EV on eBay:
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/
> > eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2459636245
> >
> > Seller thinks you can title it, but somehow I kind of doubt it.
> > Anybody know what these might be?
>
> These are City ELs, German electric commuter vehicles. They're designed
> to have a top speed of about 30 MPH. I suppose you could title one as
> an NEV here, but I doubt you could get much else. Maybe in some states
> as a motorcycle.
>
> http://www.cityel.com/
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
> AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
> 1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
> Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> I test drove an AC drive Sparrow at the 1998 Alameda International Electric
> Vehicle Exposition. Not only was it gutless but it sounded like someone
> through a bunch of nuts and bolts in a washing machine. I can truthfully say
> that I wasn't impressed. Corbin would be making a big mistake in going away
> from the ADC 203-06-4004 motor.
Rod, do you know what AC system did they use? Their own design?
Victor
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> > BTW, what city is PEM located in?
>
> > Gees! Isn't it in Phoenix?? Hope it comes out
> that they really ARE in Phoenix so ya can check them out. If they are real
> EV'ers they would welcome the interest.
>
> Seeya At PEM?
Hi Bob,
I did a Yellow Pages search and came up with something close (sort of) in
Glendale,...CA!! Just the luck I guess. I'd love to see something locally
grown and peddled. Heck, I'd settle for something locally grown and
~pedalled~, now that I think about it. Just as long as it doesn't cost as
much as a good used ICE vehicle!!
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Hi John and All,
Any pics of the Sparrow rear swing arm,
drive, around? Anyone know what parts, bearings,
brake, they used by the wheel?
Or any other like units with a single arm? I
want to build a spec e-woody this spring so have to
find parts now. Parts need to be new and availiable
for production.
My new #50 56 tooth sprocket has been doing
well. Tried a new, simple way to mount it that was
worrying but turned out ok.
I used coupling nuts, long ,1-3/4" for my
4-, 1/2" bolt spacers. First was going to use the nuts
directly on the wheel stud bolts but they were coned
on the wheel end for centering so instead used bolts
in between the studs in new drilled holes. The
coupling nuts could be flared and used but I needed it
done then to get to work the next day. I got the idea
from truck dualie conversion kits.
Then like all good plans after putting in
the bolts to find out the wheel disc is angled about 2
deg. But being that far I put split washers with the
split on the gap side inside and out. Had to use 1
coupling nut and 2 regular nuts to get the sproket
closer to the wheel for less stress.
To handle more power use more or larger bolts.
Then put on the sprocket drilled the same and
being 1/4" thick when the bolts forced onto the holes,
all tightened down amazingly lined up perfectly and
without lock-tite yet.
Has worked well for over 50 miles so seems to be
good, Lock-tite next!!! And now I can unbolt the wheel
;-), before I had to take off the axle nut!
Thanks,
jerry dycus
--- John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 04:50 PM 2/9/2004 -0800, Alan Batie stated:
> >I hope they are able to make it work; I really
> enjoyed mine when it did.
> >I still think they need to at least make the belt
> field replaceable
> >though, in addition to the electrical issues.
>
> Hey, the belt IS field replaceable! Just ask Tony
> about breaking his belt
> at the SEVA meeting last year...
> (Of course it took 4 guys, 2 tool boxes, and a lot
> of work, but we DID
> replace it during the meeting. :-)
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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At 09:26 AM 3/02/04 -0700, Roland wrote:
Hello James,
On my 12 inch GE 32 hp DC motor, there is a blower motor that is mounted on
the 4 inch wide steel brush covers that wrap around the motor.
<snipped motor blower description>
It is suggested that a car air filter is bolted to the intake. A 6 inch by
3 inch filter unit will fit the air intake of the fan.
<snipped airflow description>
This motor and fan system has now been running over 28 years with no over
temperature or faults.
Roland
Hello Roland and all
Well, I've sorted what I'm going to do. I have acquired a Honda
[aircon/heater] blower, complete with its scroll airflow box. A visit to a
'wreckers' uncovered one that is off to one side by itself (not in the
heater box), so just a hack off of the inlet selector flap and flap box,
and ready to go (once I've added an air filter).
I have some 45mm ID flexible conduit that will make ideal blower hose, so
will be mounting the blower away from the motor a bit. A piece of
sheetmetal, some 'pop' rivets and a little judicious use of a hammer, a
vice and some steel bar, and I have a dual-nozzle outlet on the box outlet.
And doesn't it blow some air!
I found that my local Exhaust supply company has available 1-3/4" (near
enough to 45mm) 180 degree bends, which have very nearly the spacing of my
brushes. Two of those welded on to the steel brush cover band, shaped to
match the curve, with an inlet "tee'd" into each one to accept the hose.
One side will also have a bend welded in to point the hose connection
across the end of the motor towards the other side, so that the two hoses
will run together.
Top view sort of:
| |
| motor |
| |
___| |____
___ ___ \
|__________| \ \
__________________/ /
___________________/
End view sort of:
______
/~~~/ \~~~\
__/ /~/ \~\ \__
__ < | motor | > __
\ \_\ /_/ /
\___\ /___/
~~~~~~
But the proof will be in a couple of months when I should be on the road.
The flywheel end of the motor is at the machine shop having a bunch of
holes put in it (with some other work). Once I get it back I'll put some
'holy' metal over the opening in the bottom of the bell bousing.
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
Daihatsu cab/chassis truck under conversion.
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Ok, can I now say I finally did some "outside the box" thinking...
Get it... out side the box... ahh nevermind...
Seth
On Feb 10, 2004, at 11:43 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
I have some 200V, 400A Schottky power modules
in a TO-244AB package.
1 or 2 of these should work.
Low price if your interested.
Rod
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
A look around DigiKey makes this a $500-ish project
for 5-10 high
current modules, plus designing appropriate
wiring/connecting methods.
Plus labor. Nothing is easy as they say.
Or use as seed money for new controller fund.
- Jim
Brought to you by the word: "Epitaxial"
"
Seth wrote:
Maybe "the diode from hell" wired for freewheel
at the motor in
parallel with the 'Rex? Like multiple 200V
"Schottkys" or FREDs on a fan
and heatsink bolted adjacent to the motor (you are
running 132V, right
Jim?) Seth Murray might need a 300V FRED for 192V?
Just thinking out
loud on that one. Maybe there are good reasons not
to do it? Lee, Rich,
Otmar??
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
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So it has struck me that I haven't heard much about the WarP motors in a
while. Has the pendulum swung back towards ADC for some reason, or just
coincidence? It seems like the WarP modifications should be great for on
road use in the Sparrow. The GP application is so highly specialized I'm
not about to guess on what is best there.
And speaking of GP, the more details have that emerged, the more
impressed I get. It weighs as much as my truck, which makes the
perfomance more than just impressive. Wowzers. That's a 2-ton Wow. Nice
postcard in the mail today too :-)
Roderick Wilde wrote:
... Corbin would be making a big mistake in going away
from the ADC 203-06-4004 motor. We run two of them direct drive on a two
ton electric postal van with extra advance and a 2000 amp Zilla running
240 volts of Excide XCD Orbitals. We have checked the brushes and
> everything looks good.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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I still can't seem to do it. Can someone else try?
Thanks,
Seth
On Feb 10, 2004, at 7:04 AM, Seth wrote:
No problem, it isn't the "film studio" bottleneck. That's me...
Seth
On Feb 10, 2004, at 12:21 AM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: nedra photos
I am working on it, but I need to FTP some becasue e-mail is a loser
at
4mb. And the evtech wiki doesn't seem to like movies...
Sorry, will fix.
S.
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
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The flywheel diodes will carry current during PWM
of the motor. The actual current depends on the
duty cycle. For example, when you are accelerating
the motor is in PWM for awhile until you reach higher
motor terminal voltage. Several factors will
determine how long you are in this PWM transition
stage. If you start out in first gear this will be
rather short. If you try to start the car in 4th gear
from a dead stop you'll be in PWM for quite awhile
(and the motor will be very innefficient for a good
deal of this time) During this 4th gear start you'll
see lots of freewheel current in the diodes.
Freewheel current and diodes are not always rated at
the same amp levels of the MOSFET's or IGBT's in the
drive. Therefore if you have a 1200Amp control the
freewheel diodes aren't always rated at 1200 amps
since
they only see a transitory current (hopefully you
start in 1st or 2nd gear and don't do the high current
4th gear start).
I think there are some other factors that come into
play in this DCP control failure. I'm guessing the
current limit control and thermal sensing circuit are
slow in responding to the load (Rich can fill us in on
this question). The other possibility is not enough
design overhead for the transistor voltage and
transient voltage seen by stray inductance and
resistance in the control, especially as the bus caps
age and have higher internal resistance (this is a
progressive failure and non-linear for the caps).
Rod
www.qsl.net/w8rnh
--- Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, can I now say I finally did some "outside the
> box" thinking...
>
> Get it... out side the box... ahh nevermind...
>
> Seth
>
> On Feb 10, 2004, at 11:43 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
>
> > I have some 200V, 400A Schottky power modules
> > in a TO-244AB package.
> > 1 or 2 of these should work.
> > Low price if your interested.
> > Rod
> > --- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> A look around DigiKey makes this a $500-ish
> project
> >> for 5-10 high
> >> current modules, plus designing appropriate
> >> wiring/connecting methods.
> >> Plus labor. Nothing is easy as they say.
> >> Or use as seed money for new controller fund.
> >>
> >> - Jim
> >> Brought to you by the word: "Epitaxial"
> >> "
> >>
> >> Seth wrote:
> >>> Maybe "the diode from hell" wired for freewheel
> >> at the motor in
> >>> parallel with the 'Rex? Like multiple 200V
> >> "Schottkys" or FREDs on a fan
> >>> and heatsink bolted adjacent to the motor (you
> are
> >> running 132V, right
> >>> Jim?) Seth Murray might need a 300V FRED for
> 192V?
> >> Just thinking out
> >>> loud on that one. Maybe there are good reasons
> not
> >> to do it? Lee, Rich,
> >>> Otmar??
> >>>
> >>
> >> _________
> >> Jim Coate
> >> 1970's Elec-Trak
> >> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> >> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> >> http://www.eeevee.com
> >>
> >
> >
> Seth Allen
> AKA "the cynic"
> " the other Seth"
> "I lost on eBay too"
>
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I will test..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:48 PM
Subject: Re: nedra photos
> I still can't seem to do it. Can someone else try?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth
> On Feb 10, 2004, at 7:04 AM, Seth wrote:
>
> > No problem, it isn't the "film studio" bottleneck. That's me...
> >
> > Seth
> > On Feb 10, 2004, at 12:21 AM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 5:45 PM
> >> Subject: Re: nedra photos
> >>
> >>
> >>> I am working on it, but I need to FTP some becasue e-mail is a loser
> >>> at
> >>> 4mb. And the evtech wiki doesn't seem to like movies...
> >>
> >> Sorry, will fix.
> >>
> >> S.
> >>
> >>
> > Seth Allen
> > AKA "the cynic"
> > " the other Seth"
> > "I lost on eBay too"
> >
> >
> Seth Allen
> AKA "the cynic"
> " the other Seth"
> "I lost on eBay too"
>
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On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 11:56 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Doug, If you are going to use it at 120 volts or above, please advance
the timing. I beg you.
Roderick
Come on, Rod, get up off of your knees. You're embarrassing me. :)
I'm thinking either 14 or 16 Optimas, depending on being able to wedge
them into the Ghia nicely. That's 168 or 192 volts, so I need to
advance the timing on my Sparrow motor.
So the next question is, how do I do this? I've seen a couple of
messages go by that mentioned what to do, but they didn't make much
sense to me. Can anyone point me to some explicit directions,
including things like torque numbers for bolting it back together?
Alan Batie and Otmar have posted some pictures - it looks pretty scary,
what with taking the motor apart and drilling new holes in the casing.
Is that really what's required?
Call me silly, but it seems that you should be able to loosen
something, twist something else, then tighten the first thing down
again. You don't need to drill new holes in the engine block of an ICE
to adjust the timing.
AC motors look better all the time. Maybe on the next EV.
Later,
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
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