EV Digest 3410
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NEV's on ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Sad news.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Portugal EV conference and the 'One Liter Car'
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: ITS inductive throttle
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) dV/dt = 0?
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motor shaft temperature
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Source for Deka 8G27 batteries?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor shaft temperature
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor shaft temperature
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Source for Deka 8G27 batteries?
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sad news.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: IUI and IU charging algorithms
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: nsight modifications
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Portugal EV conference and the 'One Liter Car'
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Ford Gives UP Inventing - Buys Hybrid Pwrtrain from Toyota
??
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Portugal EV conference and the 'One Liter Car'
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Portugal EV conference and the 'One Liter Car'
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Programming Zivan Chargers
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Newbie Questions About Traction Battery Pack Design
by "enu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Newbie Questions About Traction Battery Pack Design
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Newbie Questions About Traction Battery Pack Design
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Vectrix
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Newbie Questions About Traction Battery Pack Design
by "enu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Lithium Charging Was: Newbie Questions
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: dV/dt = 0?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Hughes system U.S Electracar reversed aux battery.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: IUI and IU charging algorithms
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
sorry just upgraded my system to XP. It's been reset. LR...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: NEV's on ebay
> Lawrence, could you reset to mail in ASCII? Thanks.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2004 3:58 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: NEV's on ebay
> >
> > * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
>
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My Aspire will need 9 to 12k of work. The insurance will pay out 3500
dollars under the uninsured driver clause because I didn't have collision &
comp. This ruins my plans of upgrading or even replacement. A car with 6k
on it is lost. I guess I can get another glider. Lawrence
Rhodes............
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--- Begin Message ---
>
> Oscar has some friends (see below): Pinky (1989 Swiss TdS solar car),
Chili
> (grid-intertie solar, I think), Carol (a Mazda conversion), and Polo (a VW
> conversion).
>
> Check out Chili; he's less efficient, I guess, but I think I like him
better
> than Oscar. He has sexy but probably impractical gullwing doors. And
some
> room: "Im Innenraum ist Platz f�r drei Erwachsene, vier Getr�nkekisten und
> einen Picknickkorb." ("In the interior there's room for 3 adults, 4 cases
> of beer, and a picnic basket.") Still no clue what makes him go, other
than
> some nicad batteries.
>
> http://www.akasol.de/include.php?inhalt=include/geschichte/chili.html
Yes, Chili is definitely hotter<g>.
http://www.akasol.de/downloads/info/pdf/leporello_eng.pdf is in English but
Chili now seems to seat 3 adults and 5 crates of water. I think beer and a
picnic basket would be more useful!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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Jim,
I built a new "pot box" for my Jet ElectraVan. I used a pair of audio
mixer quality linear potentiometers. I used linear pots to simplify the
mechanical design and a pair for redundancy and noise reduction. I
found that I still needed to add about 10 microfarads of capacitance
across the terminals to smooth some of the mechanical throttle linkage
twitches. The result was a small box and sealed except for the throttle
rod egress.
Mike
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Hello,
So, how close to 0 should dV/dt be? For that matter how long is dt?
I have been giving this some thought since without notice the "timer"
board in my ancient Lester could fail. The natural replacement is a
microcontroller for $2 and a few external parts. I program for free.
I am thinking that dV/dt might be: not near zero, near zero, zero, or
maybe even less than zero.
Any thoughts for practical values? Perhaps in terms of pack voltage and
/ or capacity?
Thanks,
Mike
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
I'm building a tach unit using a Hall effect sensor and magnets...
Just wondering if the shaft of the motor will get to hot for the
PVC?
I would recommend to try optical pickup to avoid this issue
all together.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Anyone know of a source for Deka 8G27 batteries? I have had a set on order
for my Solectria Force for about 8 weeks now, and I am getting a bit
frustrated. After six weeks a set was delivered, but they were equipped
with those marine style posts which won't fit my cables or boxes, so I sent
them back. The car is supposed to use the universal post kind of an
automotive post with a hole though it.
The latest delivery was supposed to be yesterday, but they didn't show and
they can't tell me if or when they ever will.
I was hoping to have this car on the road months ago.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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I have an optical sensor that came with the DCP controller package...
nice and easy to install. But also sensitive to the elements, such as
driving through puddles of slushy muck (New England weather!).
So an enclosed/protected optical sensor would be ideal.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Ryan Bohm wrote:
I'm building a tach unit using a Hall effect sensor and magnets...
Just wondering if the shaft of the motor will get to hot for the
PVC?
I would recommend to try optical pickup to avoid this issue
all together.
--
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 16:51, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I'm building a tach unit using a Hall effect sensor and magnets. I'm trying
I've been thinking of this same problem, except my Kostov lacks a
tailshaft.
My only idea at this point is to mount the hall effect sensor in such a
place that it can count the blades of the fan. I do not know if the fan
is magnitized enough to trigger it (doubtful, and will the motor field
affect it)) or if magnets need to be attached (difficult).
Other option is to drill a hole in the adapter plate, and matching tiny
holes in the flywheel. I have some tiny (1/8" diameter, 1/4" long) high
power magnets that could be glued into the holes in the flywheel.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
Have you tried: http://www.dekabatteries.com/cgi-bin/distributor.pl ?
One company here replaced their Hawkers with Deka and used:
North State Battery
437 Ward Blvd
Wilson, NC 27893
(252) 237-3938
There is a company plant down the road at:
East Penn Manufacturing Co., Inc.
2001 Nuggett Road
High Point, NC 27263
Phone: 336-861-5672
Fax: 336-861-5670
I have had no dealings with either one.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 16:55 PM
Subject: Source for Deka 8G27 batteries?
> Hi folks,
>
> Anyone know of a source for Deka 8G27 batteries? I have had a set on
order
> for my Solectria Force for about 8 weeks now, and I am getting a bit
> frustrated. After six weeks a set was delivered, but they were equipped
> with those marine style posts which won't fit my cables or boxes, so I
sent
> them back. The car is supposed to use the universal post kind of an
> automotive post with a hole though it.
>
> The latest delivery was supposed to be yesterday, but they didn't show and
> they can't tell me if or when they ever will.
>
> I was hoping to have this car on the road months ago.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
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Major bummer! When I had the Rabbit just finished back in '94, I
walked into CA State Automobile Assoc (already insured with them)
asking about comp and collision. The first round of interaction
was pretty cool, where they took pictures and what not. When I
went back, I ended up talking to somebody different, and I could
tell he was just laughing at me. I felt that the whole EV effort
made little difference to him (it was one of many such lessons).
I decided to hell with them, just keet the basic liability, and
I'll build up my own comp and collision. That way I keep the
interest. And I keep a very careful eye on the moving vehicles
around me, and where I park the car. It's too bad society values
these special efforts so little. Just one more bad mark.
I figure the whole insurance thing is a big black hole. You may
think you have your vehicle insured, and you pay money every
month or year to do it. It's likely money out the door - you'll
never see it again. If you do manage to make a claim, they'll
jack up your rates or discontinue your policy.
One thing that really gets me about this event is that somebody's
unique pride and joy (and potentially life) was trashed just
because a dog jumped on the SUV driver's lap (as I recall that's
how it happened). The SUV driver was following too close, I
suspect, and wasn't paying attention, and he didn't have his dog
restrained. Not only uninsured, but reckless driving. I'd
really be up for taking him to the cleaners. Sue him for his
truck, sell it, and put the cash into fixing this EV (sounds
problematic) or doing a whole different one. (In this society,
that's probably not how it works, but anyways the thought is
there.)
The thought of this EVent just comes out of the blue sometimes.
I'll start thinking about it... Grrr!
I will mention that I frequently leave a car length or two
between me and the car in front when waiting at a light or
something. My eyes are watching that rear view mirror. I figure
the space might just be enough to get out of the way or at least
mitigate a rear-ender. I saw a late-model Volvo station wagon
(with a dog resting comfortably in the rear compartment) get
smacked in the rear by a big Ford pickup, just two lanes and a
median away. Bang! Dog got up, turned around, sat back down.
Rear-end of the Volvo was rather re-decorated with some extra
curves. Another event was that my former office-mate's Saturn
was clobbered (rear-ended) in a panic stop at freeway speeds
(60mph) by a pickup truck (which then did hit and run, stopped by
the leaking radiator). The Saturn was said by the tow truck
driver to have been totaled "five times over". My office mate
also lost his girlfriend to head injury. You gotta have space
around ya! - Too many vehicles too close together, and something
goes wrong...
Well, I didn't mean for this to turn into a major exposition, but
there it is. Sigh...
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:47 AM
Subject: Sad news.
> My Aspire will need 9 to 12k of work. The insurance will pay
out 3500
> dollars under the uninsured driver clause because I didn't have
collision &
> comp. This ruins my plans of upgrading or even replacement. A
car with 6k
> on it is lost. I guess I can get another glider. Lawrence
> Rhodes............
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Conventional wisdom is about 2% of the battery's amphour
capacity. The
> T125 is rated about 230ah, so that's 4.6 amps. In practice, 4-8
amps is
> used (4 amps for new batteries, 8 amps for old ones).
So sounds like maybe I should dial up to 4A or a little better.
The charger's constant current cycle is set for 3 hours by the
factory, and I don't know if there is way to change the length of
time. All this occurs in the middle of the night while I'm
snoozing, so I'm not going down to unplug it. 8A sounds like I'd
be halfway into thermal runaway by the end of three hours,
although the charger would also click into the final `I' just
that much sooner in the charge cycle as amps start tapering back
in the U phase.
>
> Instead, you have to apply at least that 4-8 amps to get it
over the
> gassing voltage and into the region where it will finish
charging and
> equalize.
Do I want to let this gassing and equalizing happen every night,
after a discharge of 10-15 miles on hills during the day?
Sometimes I look at the plates and separators down through the
filler holes, and think, man!, I'm overcharging these batteries
(the negative plates sure have expanded, but not quite as bad as
the 8V ones in the pics we saw several months ago). But maybe
it's running on that "float charger" too long. My first pack
(US125s) did not have this plate expansion phenomena to such a
great degree, as I recall. Battery 101 head scratching! Feels
like calculus...
>
> The key point with a gel cell (or AGM) is not to put excessive
amphours
> into it. You only want to put in about 110% of what you took
out. But
> since most chargers do not keep track of amphours, the battery
> manufacturers just specify these low 'maximum' charging
voltages as a
> left-handed way to keep people from overcharging them.
So maybe getting a cheap A-hr gauge would be in order for these
and future gells. Just set it up so I can easily hook it into
the discharge and charge circuits. I do have a Tri-metric meter
(which includes Ah display) sitting in a box gathering dust, but
I think I'd like something cheap in case I drop or bang it.
Thanks Lee!
Chuck
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>MES-DEA units are perfect for this - as you may know, the
>gearbox, differential and the motor are already
>integrated into one compact unit. Just add half-shafts
>to the rear wheels of FWD car and you're done.
Speaking of which, what sort of differential is in that gearbox? The
larger MES motors have a high enough peak torque that wheel spin and
torque steer can be a consideration. It doesn't look like there's enough
room to fit a torque-biasing LSD in there.
David Thompson
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At 09:41 AM 03/17/2004 -0500, you wrote:
List of exhibitors include the "Think" Car and something called the ' one
liter car'. http://www.onelitercar.de/home.html. The site is in German but
it looks like a Tango type EV. 2 People, Tandem seating, 4 wheels.
looks like Tango & Sparrow had a baby. It sure uses a lot of the ideas from
the Tango.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:48 AM 03/17/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Think about it: Toyota has been selling Hybrids since 1997, while no
U.S. manufacturer has sold any at all. That means Toyota has a HUGE
head start. It's actually conceivable that Toyota may have tried to
broadly patent the idea of a car that can run on either or both of gas
and electric motors! Even if Ford didn't want Toyota's technology, the
fact is, it's probably impossible at this point to produce a Hybrid
without infringing on one of Toyota's patents. I think the patent issue
is one reason why Honda's Hybrids can't power the car on pure electric.
It's good to have a 7-year head start in a new field of technology...
It's great when they use the patents to actually make technology, instead
of the US Car makers plan to buy patents to keep technical innovation from
happening at all.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:40 AM 03/18/2004 -0500, you wrote:
The one liter car's name is Oscar, I guess. Oscar looks nice, though every
time I discuss tandem seating with friends they say it sounds annoying (who
wants to carry on a conversation over one's shoulder, they say).
That's one of the dumbest things I have ever heard - the driver can't look
away from the road anyway! He should be concentrating on controlling the
car, not chatting away - and besides - it's a narrow car that can lane
split - no stopping in traffic jams!
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad Waddell wrote:
At 09:41 AM 03/17/2004 -0500, you wrote:
List of exhibitors include the "Think" Car and something called the '
one liter car'. http://www.onelitercar.de/home.html. The site is in
German but it looks like a Tango type EV. 2 People, Tandem seating, 4
wheels.
looks like Tango & Sparrow had a baby. It sure uses a lot of the ideas
from the Tango.
brad
I don't think Chili designers knew about Tango existence, but I
may be wrong.
The Chili running prototype was completed and competing in 1994,
10 years ago. The concept, then, must have been settled a few years
before that.
When was the Tango concept announced for the first time? For Chili
to borrow any ideas it has to be around 1990. I don't know for fact,
but don't believe Commuter Cars corp. is 14 years in business. Is it?
Rick?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
I have been emailing Zivan USA about programming their NG3 charger for the
current interupt algorithm for AGM batteries. He says it is quite possible,
but they need exact specifications before giving a quote. Has anybody given
this algorithm any serious investigation and wish to share their knowledge?
thanks
Don
-------------------------------------------------
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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enu wrote:
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
Please use plain text when posting, Some have to hunt
arround for the actual message, which follows.
I am dreaming of doing an EV conversion.
In my design, I am looking at LI-ion cells (in series) pack plus
an Ultra capacitor pack (in series) in parallel to keep the
voltage up for acceleration.
I don't think it's that simple, someone else will have to tell you
exactly why that is. Not even Hybrid Li/PbA setups are that simple,
there is usuaily a control device (Charger) between the two.
My dilemma:
1. Do I need to size the 2 packs at the same voltage level?
2. Is there a High Voltage DC distribution box on the market to
allow merging of the power into 1 controller?
3. Should I use the Li-ion to drive the Ultra capacitors and
not parallel the power into the controller?
4. Is there a modular charging capability for Li-ion batteries
on the market?
5. Should the regen be routed to both of the packs or just one
(which one is better for regen)?
Thanks a bunch !!!
Bob Mason
An EV Dreamer
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enu wrote:
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
Bob, please set your email to output plain ASCII, not HTML.
I am dreaming of doing an EV conversion.
> In my design, I am looking at LI-ion cells (in series)
> pack plus an Ultra capacitor pack (in series) in parallel
> to keep the voltage up for acceleration.
I have done just that. Well, it's not ready, but being
implemented.
> My dilemma:
1. Do I need to size the 2 packs at the same voltage level?
Short answer - no.
Long answer - you can, but don't have to, which allows to save costs.
Each stack max voltage depends on the max voltage it will ever see.
Ultracaps stack is easy - they should not exceed 2.5V/cap.
Figure the highest voltage your drive system will have.
If you want AC system, consider highest voltage during regen.
The LiIon stack on charge will have 4.25 to 4.5V/cell.
But during driving the voltage will not exceed about 3.9V.
During charge you must separate ultracaps stack and the battery,
charge battery separately (ultracaps won't allow to change
the voltage on the pack, and leakage through equalization circuit
for the caps will contribute to the total current charger outputs
and may confuse it). If you separate the caps from the battery
you no longer need to have caps to tolerate 4.5V/cell total,
it's OK to have enough caps for 3.9V/cell total.
My example: 345V nom system. My inverter can't take more than
400V, and I actually keep top limit at 380V. Regen allowed
to push the voltage from 345 to 380V, no more. So I need
minimum 380/2.5=152 caps. The battery is 96 3.6V cells,
and to charge is completely I need up to 4.5*96=432VDC.
If I separate the pack, I can do it, but if I'd keep the caps
parallel all the time, I'd need 432/2.5=173 of them.
> 2. Is there a High Voltage DC distribution box on the market to allow
> merging of the power into 1 controller?
If you're connecting caps and the battery pack in parallel,
what merging do you mean?
3. Should I use the Li-ion to drive the Ultra capacitors and not
parallel the power into the controller?
You should use LiIons to run both; at steady speed
ultracaps have no impact and energy directly goes
from LiIons to the controller. Any converter in between
will lower efficiency and not really needed if the
battery voltage swings are within controller's ability
to handle it. Else, you need DC-DC as used for FC stacks.
4. Is there a modular charging capability for Li-ion batteries on the
market?
In short, no (for the batteries with capacity useful for EV).
5. Should the regen be routed to both of the packs or just one (which
one is better for regen)?
Regen is dynamic and short in duration. Ultracaps are the
only device which can take it and benefit from energy recovery.
LiIons, even power ones, will have higher internal resistance
than the caps (which have about 1 mOhm), and once the system
voltage during regen hit the max, regen current (without caps)
will be reduced, so you will be forced to use pad brakes.
Capacitors will take max current until charged to the max
voltage, and this current is higher than charging current
for LiIons. Usually it is the same as driving current.
For instance if you can discharge caps with 600A, you can
charge them with 600A, they don't care. You cannot charge
(using regen) LiIons with 600A.
So the caps allow more aggressive regen, meaning less
mechanical brakes usage, meaning more energy recover
and overall efficiency. Practically you will not use
disk brakes at all except for emergency cases.
> Thanks a bunch !!!
> Bob Mason
> An EV Dreamer
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.vectrix-ats.com/ I was reading in the archieves. If they are
still around it must mean something. Maybe good. Lawrence Rhodes:
EVLN(Vectrix: Mercedes of Escooters,60mi range,60mph,0-50>5sec,$2-6k)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV informational
purposes. Contact source for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
EMERGING BUSINESS A high-tech charge into scooters
Firm uses aerospace styling to create electric model for streets of
Europe, Asia By Ronald Rosenberg, Globe Staff, 12/24/97
[N]EWPORT, R.I. - If you're a baby boomer, you probably remember Vespa
- the Italian motor scooter often sneered at by the motorcycle crowd -
zigzagging through city streets, billowing smoke in its later years.
Even now, gasoline-powered motor scooters are rare in the United
States - but are common nearly everywhere else.
Just turn on the television news. The foreign street scenes show
people scootering to work. Try crossing the street in Rome, Berlin, or
as far away as New Delhi and Taipei and you will be beeped at by
fast-moving scooters that sell for $2,000 to $6,000, depending on the
power and amenities. For many in Europe and Asia, the scooter is the
equivalent of the second car, a commuter vehicle.
The problem with these scooters and their much bigger brother, the
automobile, is that they are polluters, and Europe's and Asia's major
cities are struggling to improve air quality.
One possible solution: an electric scooter developed by a start-up
company named Vectrix, based here. Out of this unlikely location for a
scooter company - one of the nation's best-known boating capitals -
come ambitious plans to assemble between 2,500 and 5,000 electric
scooters a year, starting next summer in a former textile mill in New
Bedford.
Designed to carry two people, the Vectrix scooter can travel from 60
to 70 miles before its 10 lead-acid batteries need recharging. The top
speed is 60 miles per hour, and the company claims the scooter can
accelerate from zero to 50 in about 5 seconds. With front and rear
storage, the fiberglass-bodied Vectrix scooters will be exported
initially to Europe with a price tag between $4,500 and $6,000 (helmet
included).
''We see a huge opportunity, one that the existing European and
Japanese scooter companies are not focused in on,'' said Douglas B.
Stevenson, Vectrix cofounder and vice president who unveiled working
prototypes of the scooter last week at an electronic vehicle
conference in Orlando, Fla.
He is also cofounder and executive vice president of Investec
Strategies Inc., an early-stage venture capital and project management
firm, also based in Newport, that put up the seed money to start
Vectrix.
So far, $3.5 million has been invested in the venture, including $1
million from Boston Capital Ventures, whose general partner, H. J. von
der Goltz, is a Vectrix director. His firm is also investing an
additional $1 million as Vectrix searches for an additional $5
million. Overall, about $20 million will be spent to launch Vectrix in
the next 18 months.
''We're coming out with the Mercedes of electric scooters aimed at the
upper end of the European market,'' said von der Goltz, noting the
current goal is to find utility companies or other automobile and
scooter makers that will join in the product launch and distribution
of Vectrix scooters next year.
Vectrix was based, in part, on research by SolarMax, a failed
Sarasota, Fla., developer of electric automobiles. Investec, with
Boston Capital Ventures, acquired its assets, which included early
plans for an electric scooter whose major design concept was mating
the rear wheel with an electric motor and gear drive. This design
eliminates the driveshaft and transmission found in most gas-powered
motorcycles and scooters.
Discarding the electric car, Stevenson, an aeronautical engineer who
has worked in project management for both McDonnell Douglas Corp. and
Wyman Gordon Corp., began to consider developing an electric scooter
for the overseas market.
Data from a European and Asian research firm revealed a $17 billion
worldwide market for gasoline-powered scooters. The bulk of the market
was in smaller, low-powered scooters priced just under $2,000. Also
catching on, however, were more powerful, easier-riding high-end
models priced as high as $6,000 and built by Yamaha, Honda, and
Piaggio, the Italian developer of the Vespa.
But to enter the premium market against the established giants,
Stevenson said he knew the Vectrix had to match the performance of his
gasoline rivals, which had 125cc to 250cc engines. That's in extreme
contrast to electric-powered automobiles, for which buyers are asked
to pay a hefty premium over comparable gasoline-powered vehicles even
though the electric vehicles don't come close to matching the
acceleration, top speed, trunk storage, or distance range of today's
gas-powered cars.
''You cannot ask consumers to buy an electric vehicle that is not
competitive in performance and price with a gasoline-powered
version,'' said Andrew J. MacGowan, Investec president and Vectrix
chairman, who previously founded Quadrax Advance Materials, a
developer and supplier of composite materials to the Air Force and
major aerospace companies. ''That's the problem with electric cars,
and why we think electric-powered scooters will succeed.''
MacGowan noted that Peugeot S.A., the large French automobile maker,
has not been very successful with its low-end electric scooter, priced
at $3,000 - $1,000 more than a typical 50cc gasoline engine. He cited
poor performance as a reason.
So, to enter the worldwide scooter market with no experience, MacGowan
and Stevenson turned to their contacts in the aerospace and defense
industries to help develop the scooter's key components. Since Quadrax
was involved with Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Systems's Advanced
Structures and Materials Division in the development of the Air Force's
F-22 advanced fighter plane, MacGowan was able to persuade the
Atlanta-based division to both develop the scooter's aluminum frame and
serve as a consultant on aerodynamics and styling.
''Having Lockheed Martin on board at the outset opened a lot of doors,''
said Stevenson. The scooter's fiberglass exterior was based on Lockheed
Martin's wind tunnel tests conducted last summer to help reduce wind
resistance and increase the overall mileage range before recharging.
The brushless electric motor, equivalent to a 250cc or 40-horsepower
motor, was designed by Waltham- based Kollmorgen Corp., which has
developed helicopter engines. The rear-wheel gear mechanisms and
housing is from the US operations of Getrag Gears, the German company
that builds transmissions for BMW cars and motorcycles. Getrag owns 5
percent of Vectrix.
The scooter's fiberglass exterior was developed by Robrady Design of
Sarasota, which specializes in building water-based vehicles. It built
a clay replica for the wind tunnel tests. The scooter's 10 rechargable
lead-acid batteries, each weigh ing 22 pounds, are from British-owned
Hawker Energy Products in Warrensburg, Mo.
Starting next month in New Bedford, the first of 20 hand-built
prototypes will be produced, some for long-term testing and others for
evaluation in Europe by consumers, scooter enthusiast magazines, and
potential corporate partners. In August, full production is scheduled
to start on a vehicle that von der Goltz maintains takes two to three
hours to assemble and test and uses only 150 parts - a fraction of the
estimated 4,000 parts found in many of Piaggio's scooters.
Still, the big question remains whether European consumers will
forsake a proven gasoline scooter for an electric vehicle. Helping
Vectrix are some government-sponsored initiatives to encourage
purchases of zero-emission vehicles. Taiwan is offering rebates of up
to $900 on electric vehicles.
And in Milan, where aging Fiat cars are spewing clouds of exhaust, the
Italian government is offering rebates and discounts to consumers who
replace their 10-years-and-older cars with electric or natural gas
vehicles.
Could similar financial incentives here and competitive pricing bring
scooters to the US market? Vectrix officials, looking to the next
decade, see the possibilities. For now, however, the market remains
overseas.
This story ran on page D01 of the Boston Globe on 12/24/97.
...
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--- End Message ---
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Ok, I get it!!!
I will send plain text when I send a post !!!
So sorry to all for the inconvenience - - -
Victor, thanks for the battery lesson - I really need it so that I don't
blow up my garage!!!
If I keep both packs in parallel, what makes the steady drive condition only
using the Li-ion pack?
In other words, how does the inverter/controller only pull from the Ultra
capacitor pack when the Li-ions are delivering less than needed?
Bob Mason
EV Dreamer
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Newbie Questions About Traction Battery Pack Design
enu wrote:
> * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
Bob, please set your email to output plain ASCII, not HTML.
> I am dreaming of doing an EV conversion.
> In my design, I am looking at LI-ion cells (in series)
> pack plus an Ultra capacitor pack (in series) in parallel
> to keep the voltage up for acceleration.
I have done just that. Well, it's not ready, but being
implemented.
> My dilemma:
1. Do I need to size the 2 packs at the same voltage level?
Short answer - no.
Long answer - you can, but don't have to, which allows to save costs.
Each stack max voltage depends on the max voltage it will ever see.
Ultracaps stack is easy - they should not exceed 2.5V/cap.
Figure the highest voltage your drive system will have.
If you want AC system, consider highest voltage during regen.
The LiIon stack on charge will have 4.25 to 4.5V/cell.
But during driving the voltage will not exceed about 3.9V.
During charge you must separate ultracaps stack and the battery,
charge battery separately (ultracaps won't allow to change
the voltage on the pack, and leakage through equalization circuit
for the caps will contribute to the total current charger outputs
and may confuse it). If you separate the caps from the battery
you no longer need to have caps to tolerate 4.5V/cell total,
it's OK to have enough caps for 3.9V/cell total.
My example: 345V nom system. My inverter can't take more than
400V, and I actually keep top limit at 380V. Regen allowed
to push the voltage from 345 to 380V, no more. So I need
minimum 380/2.5=152 caps. The battery is 96 3.6V cells,
and to charge is completely I need up to 4.5*96=432VDC.
If I separate the pack, I can do it, but if I'd keep the caps
parallel all the time, I'd need 432/2.5=173 of them.
> 2. Is there a High Voltage DC distribution box on the market to allow
> merging of the power into 1 controller?
If you're connecting caps and the battery pack in parallel,
what merging do you mean?
3. Should I use the Li-ion to drive the Ultra capacitors and not
parallel the power into the controller?
You should use LiIons to run both; at steady speed
ultracaps have no impact and energy directly goes
from LiIons to the controller. Any converter in between
will lower efficiency and not really needed if the
battery voltage swings are within controller's ability
to handle it. Else, you need DC-DC as used for FC stacks.
4. Is there a modular charging capability for Li-ion batteries on the
market?
In short, no (for the batteries with capacity useful for EV).
5. Should the regen be routed to both of the packs or just one (which
one is better for regen)?
Regen is dynamic and short in duration. Ultracaps are the
only device which can take it and benefit from energy recovery.
LiIons, even power ones, will have higher internal resistance
than the caps (which have about 1 mOhm), and once the system
voltage during regen hit the max, regen current (without caps)
will be reduced, so you will be forced to use pad brakes.
Capacitors will take max current until charged to the max
voltage, and this current is higher than charging current
for LiIons. Usually it is the same as driving current.
For instance if you can discharge caps with 600A, you can
charge them with 600A, they don't care. You cannot charge
(using regen) LiIons with 600A.
So the caps allow more aggressive regen, meaning less
mechanical brakes usage, meaning more energy recover
and overall efficiency. Practically you will not use
disk brakes at all except for emergency cases.
> Thanks a bunch !!!
> Bob Mason
> An EV Dreamer
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
The LiIon stack on charge will have 4.25 to 4.5V/cell.
Isn't 4.5vpc a little high for Lithium?
My Specs say that 2.8vpc to 4.3vpc is the absolute maximum range,
the safe range is 3.0vpc to 4.2vpc, for these 18650 1.2Ah cells.
4. Is there a modular charging capability for Li-ion
batteries on the market?
> In short, no (for the batteries with capacity useful for EV).
So how do those with Lithium charge them? I'm guessing that any
charger would work if it is set to the proper voltage and amperage.
Lithium needs Constant Voltage, Constant Current right? CC/CI?
How is this different from Lead Acid and Ni??'s Delta Peak charging?
Which brings me to my question, could I charge my Lithium Ion cells
with a wallwart powersupply? Mine need 4.2 to 4.3vpc and at 1.2Ah
about 400ma (per cell). So would a 4.2v 400ma power supply do the
bulk charge? When the cell reaches about 4.0v arround 80% SOC the
current needs to be reduced and the voltage can go up to 4.3 untill
they are topped off and finished charging.
Or do I have this all wrong?
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael A. Radtke wrote:
> So, how close to 0 should dV/dt be? For that matter how long is dt?
Dv is usually zero, or rising very slightly. Dt is usually 15-30
minutes. For example, my Lester 72v charger with dv/dt shuts off when
the voltage has risen less than 15 millivolts in the past 30 minutes.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Worst case what can reversing the aux. battery do to this US. ECar
conversion. 96 S-10. It's not working now. Seems to be the controller.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
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Chuck Hursch wrote:
> So sounds like maybe I should dial up to 4A or a little better.
> The charger's constant current cycle is set for 3 hours by the
> factory, and I don't know if there is way to change the length of
> time.
You're right; 3 hours is too long to just leave it. So I'd add a timer
to shut it off 30-60 minutes after the voltage reaches 2.50-2.55v/cell
and the current falls to 4-8 amps.
> 8A sounds like I'd be halfway into thermal runaway by the end of
> three hours...
On a new battery, yes. On an old battery, you'll find that you just
can't reach full charge unless you have a fairly high finishing current
(like that 8 amps).
> Do I want to let this gassing and equalizing happen every night,
> after a discharge of 10-15 miles on hills during the day?
The battery manufacturers generally say 'yes', and most chargers are set
up to match their recommendations. But, my personal opinion is that you
do NOT need to equalize like this on every charge cycle. Once a week to
once a month is usually enough. Just equalize often enough so the
batteries all stay at pretty much the same voltage.
> Sometimes I look at the plates and separators down through the
> filler holes, and think, man!, I'm overcharging these batteries
> (the negative plates sure have expanded, but not quite as bad as
> the 8V ones in the pics we saw several months ago). But maybe
> it's running on that "float charger" too long.
All floodeds 'grow' as they age. If the case is unrestrained, it can
grow a lot. If the batteries are packed tightly, or have some kind of
restraint, they swell less. The swelling isn't supposed to affect life,
but there is some evidence that it may help life to restrain the case to
prevent it.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
