EV Digest 3419
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Shocked
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Shocked
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Overunity motor? We'll see!
by "Buford, Joseph E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Wanted: TEVAN or RAV4EV --
by "Steve Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: AGM Lead batteries - Crap they where out - even special car
and feeding.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Shocked
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: More Garden Tractor Stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Shocked
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: It lives! ( little help with zilla settings? )
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Shocked
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Shocked
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Shocked
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Testing the waters.. EV for sale MAYBE!!
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: More Garden Tractor Stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Shocked
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AGM Lead batteries - Crap they where out - even special car
and feeding.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: It lives! ( little help with zilla settings? )
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AGM Lead batteries - What is this about oxygen recombination?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AGM Lead batteries - Crap they where out - even epecial car and feeding.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Shocked
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Shocked
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Shocked, being grounded
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Fishing for the Right Battery
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: high temperature superconductivity wire, American Superconductor
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Kostov Fireballed?
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: assumptions and the racers maxim
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
31) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> But a serious question I have been a bit reluctant to ask.
> About being shocked, I know with complete certianty that
> 48 volts @ 8000 amps will not hurt one to touch. I also
> know that 130 volts @ 2000 amps will give you a nice
> little tingle but will still not hurt you. (And we are talking DC)
> What I don't know for certian is what about the higher
> DC voltages I will be working with eventually, Is there
> any real danger from touching a 144 to 300 vdc battery pack?
The answer is: It depends.
Generally the number of amps doesn't matter... it only requires a
few milliamps to kill under the right conditions. Voltagewise
generally any voltage above 48V should be considered hazardous.
Electricity is pretty fickle, dozens of people are injured/killed
from 120V shocks every year, many more survive with only a tingle.
As voltages rise the odds of a fatal shock increase. People have
survived lighting strikes and contact with transmission lines, but not
often.
Given the huge currents and high voltages in EV's it is best to have a
healthy respect for the battery systems regardless of voltage. You
should take steps to avoid getting shocked regardless of the voltage.
Gloves, insulated tools, safety goggles, isolated traction pack and
such. Even more important is to avoid short circuits, since fires and
battery explosions can ruin your day just as effectively as being
electrocuted.
That having been said.. I have zapped myself a couple of times on the
324VDC pack in a Ranger conversion will no ill effects. Its not
something I would like to repeat.
An oddball that caught us off-guard: When connecting the pack wires for
the MR2 two people were working at opposite ends of the pack... since
both of us were leaning against the car when we both touch a terminal
the shock traveled through the car body and zapped us both.
John Wayland, whose Plasma Boy moniker implies are certain cavalier
attitude toward electricity is actually one of the most paranoid and
meticulous individuals I've ever met. When he is working on the
electrical systems every move is carefully thought through and planned
in advanced.
And when something goes wrong (or someone fires a camera flash) he
_really_ jumps. Learn from his experience.
Mark...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Amen to that! I still dig the occasional little ball of copper out of tiny
craters in the battery tops from when I was installing the wiring, and 54V
worth of my pack connected for a split second when a cable fell too close to
another cable. It vaporized/exploded the 1/8" thick wall of the crimped-on
lug on one end. Both interconnects had to be replaced, and there was some
soot, but no damage otherwise, except for a little copper snot that littered
the battery tops in one area.
An added point here, is that this was with a battery pack that would have
been considered discharged, or "dead." So even a "dead" battery can cause
serious damage.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 9:22 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Shocked
>
> > But a serious question I have been a bit reluctant to ask.
> > About being shocked, I know with complete certianty that
> > 48 volts @ 8000 amps will not hurt one to touch. I also
> > know that 130 volts @ 2000 amps will give you a nice
> > little tingle but will still not hurt you. (And we are talking DC)
> > What I don't know for certian is what about the higher
> > DC voltages I will be working with eventually, Is there
> > any real danger from touching a 144 to 300 vdc battery pack?
>
> The answer is: It depends.
>
> Generally the number of amps doesn't matter... it only requires a
> few milliamps to kill under the right conditions. Voltagewise
> generally any voltage above 48V should be considered hazardous.
>
> Electricity is pretty fickle, dozens of people are injured/killed
> from 120V shocks every year, many more survive with only a tingle.
> As voltages rise the odds of a fatal shock increase. People have
> survived lighting strikes and contact with transmission lines, but not
> often.
>
> Given the huge currents and high voltages in EV's it is best to have a
> healthy respect for the battery systems regardless of voltage. You
> should take steps to avoid getting shocked regardless of the voltage.
> Gloves, insulated tools, safety goggles, isolated traction pack and
> such. Even more important is to avoid short circuits, since fires and
> battery explosions can ruin your day just as effectively as being
> electrocuted.
>
> That having been said.. I have zapped myself a couple of times on the
> 324VDC pack in a Ranger conversion will no ill effects. Its not
> something I would like to repeat.
>
> An oddball that caught us off-guard: When connecting the pack wires for
> the MR2 two people were working at opposite ends of the pack... since
> both of us were leaning against the car when we both touch a terminal
> the shock traveled through the car body and zapped us both.
>
> John Wayland, whose Plasma Boy moniker implies are certain cavalier
> attitude toward electricity is actually one of the most paranoid and
> meticulous individuals I've ever met. When he is working on the
> electrical systems every move is carefully thought through and planned
> in advanced.
>
> And when something goes wrong (or someone fires a camera flash) he
> _really_ jumps. Learn from his experience.
>
> Mark...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check this out.
Comes from a (semi) respected source.
http://japan.com/technology/index.php
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> I seem to remember hearing that Alan Cocconi got over 30,000 miles on
> Optima YTs in his Honda. Yet that car gets closer to 130 wh/mile and
> had 28 modules. Quite the opposite of my race car.
Yes, but remember that he also used a trailer with a generator for a lot
of those miles.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You guys got me so excited I went out and bought a garden tractor
> yesterday with a blown ICE. I have 5 12 HP motors.
Yikes! These motors are big enough for a full-sized tractor! In a small
garden tractor, they would just spin the tires or break something.
> About being shocked, I know with complete certianty that 48 volts
> @ 8000 amps will not hurt one to touch. I also know that 130 volts
> @ 2000 amps will give you a nice little tingle but will still not
> hurt you. (And we are talking DC).
AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much.
> What I don't know for certain is what about the higher DC voltages
> I will be working with eventually, Is there any real danger from
> touching a 144 to 300 vdc battery pack?
144vdc is roughly equivalent to 120vac; 300vdc is roughly like 240vac.
Both are dangerous, and will be fatal if your hands are wet!
The current of the source has nothing to do with it. It's basically the
voltage that matters. The higher it is, the more dangerous.
People say "current kills", and that is sort-of true. It is indeed the
current that flows in your body that does the damage. You start to feel
it around 0.001 amps (1 milliamp), and even 0.01 amps (10 milliamps) can
kill you.
But it takes voltage to make the current flow. Your body has a certain
resistance, but it varies wildly between individuals, whether your skin
is wet or dry, etc. So when you touch some voltage source, it's the
voltage and your body resistance that determine the current. How much
power the source can deliver does not matter.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Bob and all, to the outside world tractor pulling may look chaotic
> but it is a result of many factors due to geographic location,
> economics, weather, availability of parts or vehicles to modify
> or start with and other factors...
Sounds like fun!
You didn't mention steam tractors. I remember going to a tractor pull
(full-size all-out competition tractors, with gigantic rip-roaring V8's,
etc. They put on quite a show! Then, they came out with an antique Case
steam tractor with its 'puny' 20hp engine. They had a tug-of-war with
the winning competition tractor, and the steam tractor won easily!
Steam gets its incredible pulling power from near-infinite torque at
zero speed. Electrics can do the same thing. So, I would imagine an
electric tractor could really be competitive.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course where the current flows makes a difference as well. In one hand
and out the other is the most dangerous as your heart sits right in the
middle.
I have never been bit bad enough to gain a real healthy respect I guess. I
try to be careful, but I can't tell you how many times I have walked out in
the garage in my socks and grabbed hold of one lead from my variac. It
bites me everytime, doesn't even care that it is not turned on.
damon
People say "current kills", and that is sort-of true. It is indeed the
current that flows in your body that does the damage. You start to feel
it around 0.001 amps (1 milliamp), and even 0.01 amps (10 milliamps) can
kill you.
But it takes voltage to make the current flow. Your body has a certain
resistance, but it varies wildly between individuals, whether your skin
is wet or dry, etc. So when you touch some voltage source, it's the
voltage and your body resistance that determine the current. How much
power the source can deliver does not matter.
_________________________________________________________________
Get reliable access on MSN 9 Dial-up. 3 months for the price of 1!
(Limited-time offer)
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <!
>
> I spend days and days writing 20 page manuals, and no one will read
> them! Aargh! And people wonder why I never answer the phone. :-)
>
OK OK , if all else fails I'll read the book :-) .
> Steve, you'll have to read the manual to get the Palm working, heck,
> it's less than a page, it came in the Palm box. I tried to make it as
> simple as I could. Let me know where I've fallen short, but only
> after you read it and try it.
>
Letting you "know where I've fallen short " is going to make me look pretty
stupid but , ...
from the "palm setup" page
10 Tap "on" which is on the lower left of the display . It needs to be dark
to work.
believe it or not my first thought was " what I have to do this at night .
How about maybe " the on box has to be shaded to work" . It was at this
point that my 14 year old daughter walked out the door, Oh a palm , before I
knew it she had the main menu up , but got stuck there. That afternoon a
friend/school teacher was by , and he told me that you have to enter the
letter which is displayed before the operation like d) display settings
from the keyboard ,tapping on the "d" won't do it , to get to the keyboard
you tap another box , which is on the same line as the on box , it's kbd ,
a key board comes up , tap d then done and BAM , there's all the settings .
Well that's as far as I've gotten, , I'll be reading your manual before
asking any questions .
Steve Clunn .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to ad something to this discussion.
Besides the immediate shock hazard you must consider two things:
#1) Bodily reaction. When I built my EV I once arced 144VDC in my face.
No, I didn't get shocked, but as I recoiled in surprise my shoulder was
gashed because my pickup bed was raised up directly above me. I had a
bright blue spot in my vision and severe pain. That was my wake-up call!
#2) HEAT. Before your brain can tell you're muscles what to do you just
might find yourself gripping a large piece of molten wire or metal. I
won't name names but I can think of a couple on this list who've had
such misfortune.
Be careful,
-Dave Stensland, Owner
Megawatt Motorworks, LLC
Discover the Potential
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry, I want to Thank You for that important info as it certainly wasn't a
dumb question to me,, I'm glad this subject came up and any other safety
subjects particular to electrics, it's better to know beforehand rather than after
the fact....Thanks again...Geo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it's great you guys are discussing this as safety is one of the most
important issues in tractor pulling which is safer than most motorsports ( we aim to
keep it that way), you'll have to establish some rules particular to EV's in
order to participate (such as motor/battery shielding, fire extinguisher types,
Voltage and Motor size limits (as do the ICE's) in order to have a level
playing field, operators should also be responsible for the safety of other pullers
and spectators around their equipment as they'll be ignorant of safety issues
regarding EV's, this is a family sport with folks of ALL ages frequently in
close proximity so safety is of the first order....Geo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of you on the list remember some of the posts / trials / tribulations I
have had getting my 59 Henney Kilowatt running. Well with spring now here
(officially anyway) and the days warming up she's out on the road again and
doing quite well.
Then the bombshell dropped. Sometime in the next 2-3 months, I am going to
have to move. Currently we own two pices of property, one 14 miles from my
work (and where I live now) and one about 38 miles from my work. The one 38
miles away is where I am moving to.
I can't get charging at work, I have fought that fight and have, for now at
least, lost.
The Henney Just can't do it. Even with charging it would be at the edge of
her 40-45 mile range.
So, I'm considering selling her to use the money to purchase a Honda Insight
or Toyota Prius (used) to make the commute.
I don't want to sell her, but I think it is the only thing I can do right
now. I can't afford to buy another car AND move. So I thought I would ask
the list if anyone is seriously intereted in buying her.
All her info is on the EV page, and at the second link below my name in this
post. Her batteries have about 40 cycles on them and only one deep (read
was really starting to wonder about getting home) discharge.
The brakes have all be re-built (to the tune of over $1,800 bucks!) and the
only things wrong with her right now are:
Amp meter does not read accurately, I guess the shunt is bad.
Front and Rear window seals really should be replaced, they leak in hard
rain.
Spedo Cable is busted.
I have added a new 20amp 12hr clockwork timer into the charge circuit for
charge timing and there are two 110 outlets also wired into the timer so, if
you have enough amps on the circuit, you could run an electric heater, or
cooler or battery warmers etc. while it charges.
If anyone is seriously interested or has any quetions, please contact me off
list.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising every time we
fail. - Confucius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,,yes I did, we do pulls at gas and steam shows, they are very
impressive,,however the gist of the message was relating to Garden Tractors and mini
rods
although I think I recall someone actually built a cool lookin steam engine
powered garden tractor just for puttering around,,,in full size pulling things
get very wild where there's lots of V12-V16 piston engine fighter plane
engines, HUGE radial aircraft engines, tank engines, turbines , six supercharged
racing engines, etc., some fantastic setups if ya look around, just picture some
EV monster that can compete with the 10,000lb. Unlimited Modifieds, what a
show that would be,,,might not hear an engine but maybe you'd hear as well as
feel the earth shake,,,oooohhhh baby....they get pretty wild in Europe
too,,,you'll get "hooked" on this sport !!! It's a shame that there's no EV's when
this
is the sport that it's ideal to use.... Geo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In other news,
<http://www.hinkenberg.de/escher_g/escher03.jpg>
[sorry]
--
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/
Buford, Joseph E wrote:
Check this out.
Comes from a (semi) respected source.
http://japan.com/technology/index.php
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should add that the electrical safety section of the evparts.com FAQ has
been recently expanded, although I still have to do more work on
it....(sigh)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 1:34 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Shocked
>
> it's great you guys are discussing this as safety is one of the most
> important issues in tractor pulling which is safer than most motorsports (
> we aim to
> keep it that way), you'll have to establish some rules particular to EV's
> in
> order to participate (such as motor/battery shielding, fire extinguisher
> types,
> Voltage and Motor size limits (as do the ICE's) in order to have a level
> playing field, operators should also be responsible for the safety of
> other pullers
> and spectators around their equipment as they'll be ignorant of safety
> issues
> regarding EV's, this is a family sport with folks of ALL ages frequently
> in
> close proximity so safety is of the first order....Geo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, so far my Hawker Genesis batteries have taken the Prizm 4,000
miles without any real problems. It is true that since the fall the
range has fallen like a proverbial rock, but this could simply be the
cold. When it warmed up to the 50's I was able to get 21 miles off the
pack before the voltage would sag below 300 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (basically C in
terms of current and 12vpb). When it's really cold (like this morning,
20 degrees) I will be pulling 70amps at 300 volts right out of the driveway.
I'll let you know what happens when they warm up. I'd like to get at
least another year of range where I can drive the car 30 miles without
worrying about running dead.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:46 PM -0500 3-24-04, 1sclunn wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <!
> Steve, you'll have to read the manual to get the Palm working, heck,
it's less than a page, it came in the Palm box. I tried to make it as
simple as I could. Let me know where I've fallen short, but only
after you read it and try it.
Letting you "know where I've fallen short " is going to make me look pretty
stupid but , ...
from the "palm setup" page
10 Tap "on" which is on the lower left of the display . It needs to be dark
to work.
believe it or not my first thought was " what I have to do this at night .
Ha ha! I love it! :-) That must be why I don't write manuals for a
living, they can be read in so many different ways. :-)
How about maybe " the on box has to be shaded to work" .
Excellent idea, I changed it.
It was at this
point that my 14 year old daughter walked out the door, Oh a palm , before I
knew it she had the main menu up ,
Yes, it certainly can help to have children around when trying to get
a computer to work!
but got stuck there. That afternoon a
friend/school teacher was by , and he told me that you have to enter the
letter which is displayed before the operation like d) display settings
from the keyboard ,tapping on the "d" won't do it ,
Ah yes, that's in the main book, page 11. There really is a lot of
good information there if you can get through it... :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla controllers in production, see them here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a question:
I have been reading a paper about AGM battery charging techniques, and
one of the topics in it is the issue that AGM batteries have problems
accepting a final charge because as the battery ages the current needed
to overcome the oxygen recombination becomes too high. This leads to
negative plate failure from being undercharged.
What are they discussing here? I thought the whole idea of recombination
was to keep the battery from drying out while it is gassing. Also if you
charge too hard, you wind up sinking the positive plate, correct?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Ames wrote:
> Anyone gone more than 16k miles on an AGM pack ?
Yes, that is actually pretty good for AGMs. That would be about 500
cycles at 32 miles per cycle. To get longer life, I suspect you'd have
to keep your depth of discharge even shallower, or use pretty special
batteries and management techniques.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your skin serves as a dielectric barrior to
electricution. The dielectric strength depends
on many factors, if you have a extra value meal
with french fries and don't wash your hands the
dielectric strength is much lower.
Once the voltage breaks down this barrior your
internal body resistance will determine how much
current will flow. You central nervous system has
positive sodium ions and negative potassium ions to
conduct this electricity. The resistance will depend
on many factors including body size and weight and the
chemistry of your body.
They did a study with willing college students to
determine the 'let go' current. For small people,
especially women this was approximately 12-14 mA.
For larger people and men this was 14-16mA.
Ventricular fibrulacation occurs at 100 to 200mA (this
is from memory). This current will stop the heart and
depends on the factors mentioned above. At currents
above this you will get damage to the central nervous
system and some serious burns, this is why some people
survive high voltage electricution but have some
serious battle scars.
Enough rambling, my son is inflicting bodily harm
because I'm not paying attention to his Karate
kicks...
Rod
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > You guys got me so excited I went out and bought a
> garden tractor
> > yesterday with a blown ICE. I have 5 12 HP motors.
>
> Yikes! These motors are big enough for a full-sized
> tractor! In a small
> garden tractor, they would just spin the tires or
> break something.
>
> > About being shocked, I know with complete
> certianty that 48 volts
> > @ 8000 amps will not hurt one to touch. I also
> know that 130 volts
> > @ 2000 amps will give you a nice little tingle but
> will still not
> > hurt you. (And we are talking DC).
>
> AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much.
>
> > What I don't know for certain is what about the
> higher DC voltages
> > I will be working with eventually, Is there any
> real danger from
> > touching a 144 to 300 vdc battery pack?
>
> 144vdc is roughly equivalent to 120vac; 300vdc is
> roughly like 240vac.
> Both are dangerous, and will be fatal if your hands
> are wet!
>
> The current of the source has nothing to do with it.
> It's basically the
> voltage that matters. The higher it is, the more
> dangerous.
>
> People say "current kills", and that is sort-of
> true. It is indeed the
> current that flows in your body that does the
> damage. You start to feel
> it around 0.001 amps (1 milliamp), and even 0.01
> amps (10 milliamps) can
> kill you.
>
> But it takes voltage to make the current flow. Your
> body has a certain
> resistance, but it varies wildly between
> individuals, whether your skin
> is wet or dry, etc. So when you touch some voltage
> source, it's the
> voltage and your body resistance that determine the
> current. How much
> power the source can deliver does not matter.
> --
> "Never doubt that a small group of committed people
> can change the
> world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
> -- Margaret Meade
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
In other news,
<http://www.hinkenberg.de/escher_g/escher03.jpg>
[sorry]
Hmmm... says he has patent protection in 48 countries, but his name
doesn't show up *anywhere* in a patent search at uspto.gov.
It would be nice.
Judebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
I should add that the electrical safety section of the evparts.com FAQ has
been recently expanded, although I still have to do more work on
it....(sigh)
Say, I recently asked a question about charging with a variac; I wanted
to add the answer to the evparts.com FAQ, but I couldn't.
You want to give me write permission, or would you like me to write
something up and send it to you?
Jude
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod, I seen this on t.v. on the Discovery channel I think, they had various
types of people to test subjects that tried to hang on to an electric wire
fence (like that used to restrain cattle within a corral) while the voltage was
cranked up to see who could hold out longest, surprisingly a small frame man
from India won, don't remember what he got in addition to the jolts,lol,,,Geo
here's an interesting article on grounding your body,,,from electro static
discharge;
http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/cober/ground.htm
http://www.static-sol.com/articles/static_shocks.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Really nice read on batteries only he gets it wrong on AGM's being
heavier,
But recommend reading anyway as he gives a nice breif explanation on the
chemistry with each Pba type.
http://www.bassandwalleyeboats.com/site_page_897/article_page_201.html
Here is a little bit of the article.
Danny Ames...
By Allan Tarvid
2003-10-01
Save money and fish longer by choosing the best battery style for your
use. Here's how.
When fishing for boat batteries, it�s difficult to decide just where to
cast. After all, who wants to plunk
down big bucks for high-tech gel or absorbed �glass mat (AGM) batteries
only to learn � too late � that
less expensive, full-maintenance wet-cells would have worked just as
well for your particular needs? On
the other hand, you don�t want to discover that although sealed
batteries cost more than the flooded-cell
models you just bought, their freedom from maintenance would have been
well worth the extra bucks.
Absorbed �glass mat (AGM) batteries have highly porous, microfiber
�glass mats pressed tightly between the positive and negative plates in
each cell. The mats absorb and hold all of the liquid electrolyte. There
is no free liquid in the cells, and if you accidentally puncture the
battery, nothing leaks out. And since there�s nothing to spill, they can
be installed on their sides if needed. Other than charging and keeping
the connections clean, AGM batteries require no maintenance.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony wrote:
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
In other news,
<http://www.hinkenberg.de/escher_g/escher03.jpg>
[sorry]
Hmmm... says he has patent protection in 48 countries, but his name
doesn't show up *anywhere* in a patent search at uspto.gov.
It would be nice.
Judebert
What makes you think that USA is necessarily among those 48 countries? :-)
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
this may be the wave of the nearby future, little big wire, do more with
less..;
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1200/21_158/68147219/p1/article.jhtml?term
=
American Superconductor
maybe the next Microsoft ??? prime producers of superconducting
wire/motors/power grid management...notice large contracts to design next generation
motors
to power the Navy/Military,,, also note that the huge cruiseships are driven
by electric motors
http://www.amsuper.com/html/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Well, ole ELECTWK just crossed the 16,300 mi mark today but will not be
racking up more miles in the near future. I've heard the war stories on the
EV list about motors fireballing. Looks like I've got my own story to add.
During lunch break today, I went to my bank to make a deposit. The EV must
have sensed the positive cash flow and was determined to reverse the
situation. Anyway, on the return trip back to my work site, I was driving up
the ~15% one mile long grade that I've done over 400 times in the past few
years when power began to drop off and funny noises could be heard from the
motor compartment. Oh #$%&it I thought, especially as smoke began to roll
out in front of the hood and my nose detected that nasty burnt electrical
stuff smell. I quickly pulled to the side of the road and hit the Albright
disconnect switch. Popping the hood let out even more smoke that was
emanating from the Kostov fan vent holes. Why did this happen?
While ELECTWK has pulled this hill hundreds of times before, this trip was
intentionally taken with a different driving style and may have exposed a
max voltage limit of the Kostov. Normally I pull this hill in 3rd gear
around 3000 rpm at 38 mph which puts the bat amps 300-400A range. I don't
have a motor current meter but I believe under these conditions, it's close
to the Grizzly current limit of 800A. Remember this is a 15% grade and
ELECTWK tips the scales at 4600 lbs. Today since I had a fresh charge on the
pack when I left on my short lunch time errand, I decide to run up the hill
a bit faster. I also wanted to check the Grizzly PWM operation at near 100%
duty cycle. So, this time I stay in second gear and mash the pedal down
while the rig accelerates to about 45mph and the tach climbs to 4600rpm. RPM
and speed are now holding constant as the grade seems to require the same
power the 192V nom pack can supply to the Kostov at this RPM. These
conditions were held for about 30-45 seconds before power dropped way off
(as Kostov fireballed). The Emeter showed ~180V and my guess is the battery
current was 150-250A. Since the PWM was full on, motor current was same as
battery current. Could the higher motor voltage coupled with the high motor
current caused the commutator/brushes to fry? I'm guessing this is what
failed. At the moment, I'm not motivated to tear into it to see what exactly
is wrong but it's probably major given the smoke that beltched from under
the hood and there is copper dust/chips under the hood as well. Dang.
So, time to sleep on this and get a fresh perspective on problem. Meanwhile,
maybe the sage EV motorheads out there will have some theories about what
went wrong and what should be done to prevent this from happening again.
Bummed,
Dave (now fireballed) Luiz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Judebert writes:
>Martin Klingensmith wrote:
>
>> In other news,
>> <http://www.hinkenberg.de/escher_g/escher03.jpg>
>>
>> [sorry]
>
>Hmmm... says he has patent protection in 48 countries, but his name
>doesn't show up *anywhere* in a patent search at uspto.gov.
>
>It would be nice.
When you first apply for a patent, nothing about your invention,
including your name, is made public. It's only after your patent is
granted that it shows up in a patent search.
Hence the term "submarine patent", which is when you file for a patent,
then get people to unknowingly use it, and then when your patent
"surfaces" (i.e. is granted), BOOM, lawsuit time.
jorg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just showin up at the track with a torque monster guarantees you NOTHING,
just because those folks may be running "stock" tractors doesn't mean that they
haven't done their "homework", many take the sport VERY seriously and have many
years of pulling experience,,,unless you can say the same I'd advise you
watch what you boast of as it may be YOU who goes home without a "notch" in yer
gunbelt, seen it happen on a regular basis the little guy (small
engine/investment,,,etc.) takin home the spoils of "war"..lol...
the racers maxim,,,in order to finish first....you must first finish,,,now
ain't that the truth !!!
Geo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jorg Brown wrote:
Judebert writes:
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
In other news,
<http://www.hinkenberg.de/escher_g/escher03.jpg>
[sorry]
Hmmm... says he has patent protection in 48 countries, but his name
doesn't show up *anywhere* in a patent search at uspto.gov.
It would be nice.
When you first apply for a patent, nothing about your invention,
including your name, is made public. It's only after your patent is
granted that it shows up in a patent search.
Hence the term "submarine patent", which is when you file for a patent,
then get people to unknowingly use it, and then when your patent
"surfaces" (i.e. is granted), BOOM, lawsuit time.
True, but the USPTO allows you to search through patent applications,
too. That's so you don't waste time submitting a patent that's already
been filed. His name didn't show up anywhere. Of course, that doesn't
mean much; he did say he was paranoid about "IP theft".
It would still be nice.
Judebert
EVirgin, amateur inventor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Jude Anthony wrote:
Hmmm... says he has patent protection in 48 countries, but his name
doesn't show up *anywhere* in a patent search at uspto.gov.
What makes you think that USA is necessarily among those 48 countries?
:-)
It says so in the article? Quote:
But a few months later they were forced to recant their decision after
the US patent office recognized his invention and gave him the first of
two patents. As Minato notes: "How typical of Japan's small-minded
bureaucrats that they needed the leadership of the US to accept that my
invention was genuine."
But the fact that I can't find it doesn't mean it's not there. Just
that I can't find it.
Judebert
EVirgin, amateur patent researcher
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Hmmm... says he has patent protection in 48 countries, but his name
> doesn't show up *anywhere* in a patent search at uspto.gov.
>
Does matter either way. There are hundreds of US patents on over unity
"Magnetic motors". None of them actually work.
Mostly the patent office just patents plans/ideas, as long as you don't
say "Perpetual motion" they will patent it.
As for this article, I am seriously unimpressed with technical quality
of the reporters. Apparently they believe it requires 200-300 watts
simply to keep a flywheel spinning at 1500 rpms.
They also buy his claim that he isn't violating physics because he is
converting magnetic force into power. This shows that they are
completely ignorant about physics, because claiming to convert force
into power DOES violate physics.
Force is only ONE part of power, so this is sort of like claiming to be
able to convert heat into cake without adding ingredients. Except that
theoretically it IS possible to turn heat into cake, it's just beyond
our capabilities. Converting force into power is not possible.
Finally the reporters (showing their clever objectivity) accepted that
the test instruments that were already setup were accurate, untampered
with, and showing true readings.
I also like having the "Banker" there. Especially when he commits 100
million on the spot. This is straight out of the Con-man's handbook.
This guy appears to me to be a Japanese version of Tilley.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony wrote:
But the fact that I can't find it doesn't mean it's not there. Just
that I can't find it.
In fact, even that's not valid anymore. After remembering the old
patent search skills, I found both patents. In case anyone seriously
wants to debunk this one, here they are. Since the URLs probably won't
survive our mailers, I also included the patent numbers.
Patent 4,751,486 (Magnetic rotation apparatus)
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=2&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=minato-kohei.INZZ.&OS=in/minato-kohei&RS=IN/minato-kohei
Patent 5,594,289 (Magnetic rotating apparatus)
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=minato-kohei.INZZ.&OS=in/minato-kohei&RS=IN/minato-kohei
Judebert
EVirgin
--- End Message ---
