EV Digest 3422
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re:Overunity
by "Buford, Joseph E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Phoenix Motorcars moving forward(what about evercell going under?)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Evercell out of business?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AGM Lead batteries - Crap they where out - even epecial car and feeding.
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Truck Conversion
by "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Evercell out of business?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: assumptions and the racers maxim
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Truck Conversion & Datsun stuff available
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Possible donor car
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Possible donor car
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Shocked
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Green Car Rally in eastern Pennsylvania -- April 10
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Shocked & Different People React Different Ways
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Shocked
by Bob Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Shocked
by Bob Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Shocked
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Shocked
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Shocked
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of fireballing DC motors, is it possible to do similar damage
to AC motors?
I have been known to take rather steep hills at high power ([EMAIL PROTECTED]
volts) in the Prizm. Also have been known to "hold" it for a few seconds
using the motor instead of the brake.
What's the fault mode for brushless motors?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just need to get water to flow uphill <vbg>
>Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 15:50:09 -0500
>From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
Plain Text Attachment [ Download File | Save to my Yahoo! Briefcase ]
In other news,
<http://www.hinkenberg.de/escher_g/escher03.jpg>
[sorry]
--
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/
Joe Buford
310-416-9319
Boeing Satellite Systems
702 \O/
[XXXXX]-H-[XXXXX]
/0\ GEO
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 08:12, Christopher Zach wrote:
> Speaking of fireballing DC motors, is it possible to do similar damage
> to AC motors?
>
> I have been known to take rather steep hills at high power ([EMAIL PROTECTED]
> volts) in the Prizm. Also have been known to "hold" it for a few seconds
> using the motor instead of the brake.
>
> What's the fault mode for brushless motors?
Insulation melting and the windings shorting: not nearly as
spectacular. OTOH damage can be cumulative.
Most good AC drives (like the Metricmind Seimans drive) have temp
sensors buried in the motor windings that tell the controller to reduce
current. The windings are stationary in most AC EVs, and therefore much
easier to cool.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:33:06 -0000
From: "anbausa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Phoenix Motorcars moving forward
Source Phoenix Motor Cars
http://66.218.37.153/news.html
February 2004
First off, we have moved our corporate offices across town in Ojai.
Our new address is: Phoenix Motorcars, Inc. 410 G Bryant Circle Ojai,
CA 93023 Our phone number (805 646-7073) and web address
(www.phoenixmotorcars.com) remain the same. A large utility has asked
us to put together a quote on a base order of three hundred pick-up
trucks for their fleet. They have identified a total of twenty five
hundred vehicles in their fleet that they want to be electric and
have said that they want to expand the base order as quickly as we
can ramp up production capacity. In this regard, we have entered into
negotiations with Roush Industries (www.roushind.com), a Tier I
automotive assembly sub-contractor to do the actual manufacturing of
our vehicle design. Roush Industries also provides us with the safety
engineering horsepower to assure that we are producing a safe and
reliable product. The three way discussions between the utility,
Roush, and Phoenix have already reached the point of specific task
assignment for each entity and those action items are being completed
at this time. All involved believe that we will be able to sign final
documents in April 2004, with product rolling off the assembly line
by early summer. In addition, Phoenix Motorcars has been contacted by
numerous local, state, and federal governmental agencies with
requests for quote on other fleet requirements numbering in the
hundreds of total vehicles. We are expanding our discussions with
Roush to address these requests as well. In conjunction with the
talks with the utility customer, we have contacted a local commercial
bank to provide Phoenix Motorcars with an operating line of credit.
Release of this financing will coincide with signing of the purchase
contracts likely in April - May 2004. In the mean time, Phoenix still
has ongoing overhead and expanded engineering and development
expenses that exceed our current capital. If you are so inclined or
if you know someone who would be interested in our fast growing
company please contact Dana Muscato or Dan Riegert to discuss this
opportunity.
December 2003
We finally completed testing and certification with California Air
Resources Board (www.arb.ca.gov) in October 2003. This was a major
milestone for the company as we now will receive the clean air
credits for each of our vehicles registered in California.
We are now ramping up production of the Taxicab order. In addition,
we are in active negotiations with a Southern California utility for
an order of 100 vehicles per year for three years. We have also
contacted and are in project development talks with a tier I
automobile assembly subcontractor to do that production.
We have received requests for quote from a number of local and state
governmental agencies as well as individuals. We are offering
vehicles on a 90 days after receipt of order basis to those who are
interested in purchasing one or more of our cars. Initially, we would
want to have a beta site relationship with any early purchasers so
that we can monitor performance and reliability.
If you are interested in purchasing a vehicle please contact us at
(805) 646-7073.
June 2003
On January 2, 2003, Phoenix Motorcars (PMI) received a purchase order
for twenty electric automobiles from a taxicab company based in
Sacramento, California. They ordered 1937 Ford style Phaeton 4-door
touring sedans. Incidentally, the company wants a total of eighty
vehicles in their fleet and every indication is that they will
exercise their option to order the other sixty cars upon delivery of
the first twenty. In addition, they introduced us to an outstanding
battery technology, Evercel's Nickel Zinc batteries. These batteries
have roughly the charge density of nickel metal hydride batteries,
but cost just slightly more than lead acid batteries. Preliminary
testing has demonstrated a range of approx. 100 - 120 miles per
charge. We are currently in production of the vehicles to fill this
order. In the mean time, we completed our production prototype 1937
Ford style Cabriolet and are scheduled to complete California Air
Resources Board testing and certification by the end of June. This
certification is required to receive the California Zero Emission
Vehicle Credits for our cars.
We have also been contacted informally by several of California's
largest utilities regarding quotes for several hundred vehicles per
year for the next five years. We have asked them to hold off until we
ramp up production and deliver the first twenty cars we have on order.
We currently plan to deliver all 20 of the vehicles on order by the
end of September 2003. We expect to garner approximately 28 ZEV
credits per vehicle (total of 560 credits) for these cars. It appears
that we would receive these credits by the end of this year.
Overall, although slightly behind our original schedule, we are
progressing nicely. We are extremely excited about our existing order
and look forward to fulfilling additional requests for our products.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
List shows I sent an attachment. I didn't do it. What is going on? Is is
XP? Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Overunity motor? We'll see!
> http://www.newebmasters.com/freeenergy/index.shtml
>
> Welcome to
> FREE ENERGY
> Don't take MY word for it. Take it from the U.S. Patent & Trademark
Office!
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> You are visitor # 104160 since February 1st, 1998. Please, Recommend
our
> site to a friend!
> Important Update, 10/26/2001 - We've added some new links below that will
> definately be
> of interest to you; Not to mention OPEC.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> Revealed here in it's entirety is a patent which, due to probable
> suppression by political, military and/or economic interests, you've never
> heard about. Granted to inventor Howard Johnson on April 24, 1979, the
> rights to which have expired since 1996, patent number 4,151,431. See
there
> also patent number 5,402,021, also issued to Howard Johnson March 28, 1995
> which continues to build upon the very same principals. These may, in
fact,
> prove to be some of the most important documents in the history of
mankind.
> Click the image to the left for a detail view.
>
> In short, it is a patent for a device capable of producing unlimited free
> energy with zero environmental impact. A device resembling an electric
motor
> which produces work without electrical input, using only permanent magnets
> for motive force. What some might call perpetual motion. What the inventor
> believes is the harnessing of energy not thought possible by conventional
> science based on "incomplete information and theory with respect to the
> atomic motion occurring within a permanent magnet." He then goes into a
> lengthy discussion of his theories, which may or may not be accurate, and
I
> am not qualified to say one way or the other. The fact remains, however,
> that he DOES have a working model of the invention. What ever path he
took,
> he arrived at the same place.
>
> Featured in the now defunct publication Science and Mechanics magazine,
> Spring 1980 edition, it took five and a half years from the date of the
> original filing and many legal battles with the patent office to get it
> approved as they have a "policy" (due to so many fraudulent submissions)
of
> not patenting any device which in any way resembles perpetual motion or
over
> unity. Our assurance that this is no hoax.
>
> It is my firm belief that this patent was suppressed due to the
> inevitability that devices built and sold based on the principles
described
> therein would force the total economic ruin of petroleum producing
nations,
> the complete decentralization of power generation and totally eliminate
the
> need for the consumption of fossil and nuclear fuels of any kind, for the
> production of energy of any kind, be it electrical, heat or motive force.
> Period.
>
> Granted, it will likely result in global economic chaos and political
shifts
> in power. It will, without a doubt, completely wipe out many industries.
> Especially the petroleum industry which will all but disappear forever.
> Never completely, though. We'll always have a need for plastics,
lubricants
> and other petroleum products. But given the benefits of zero or even
> positive environmental impact and the virtually eliminated financial
burden
> on businesses and families for energy, who can deny that the benefits
> outweigh the negatives?
>
> Just imagine never wanting for energy again. Imagine no coal fired power
> plants belching out black soot and pollutants to satisfy our gluttonous
> energy needs, but rather, electric generators in every basement. Imagine
> cars with NO exhaust and no engine noise that can't run out of gas and
> deliver more horsepower than most sports cars of today. Imagine no gas
> stations contaminating our ground water, no oil barges or derricks
spilling
> crude. Imagine no power lines, no pipe lines, no wind turbines, no solar
> panel arrays, no hydroelectric dams cluttering up our landscapes. Imagine
> taking a breath of fresh air again or basking in the sun without fear of
> cancer. Imagine restoring and preserving this tiny spaceship earth for our
> children. We are empowered, and thus obligated to do so.
>
> Having said that, here now, in it's entirety is the patent. If you can
> duplicate this device and create working units for yourselves and/or for
> open sale to the public, may God bless you. Incidentally, according to the
> S&M article, the ferrite graph on the first page belongs to another patent
> but the patent office was so shaken by the whole ordeal that, for what
ever
> reason, they insisted it be put there anyway. In the interest of
preserving
> the integrity of the original, it has not been excluded here. Read and be
> enlightened.
>
> Home [Patent top] [S&M article top]
>
> Questions or comments about this site may be sent to freeenergy (at)
> newebmasters (dot) com
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
> Other fine related links:
> (Many thanks to the many who have notified me of changes to links found
> here. They tend to be moving targets.)
> NEW! - MagneticGenerator.com - I was contacted by one of the principal
> partners of this company
> who made some pretty wild claims for this device. Constant RPMs
regardless
> of frictional load up to
> the point of stalling the motor with no change in power consumed. What
it
> sounds like is they have
> found a way to regulate the output of a Johnson type motor by a voltage
> input. Far better than any
> mechanical arrangement I could have conceived for a pure PM motor. I
also
> have information that this
> company may be infringing on someone else's patent rights and may be
shut
> down soon. Something to
> do with the Muller Motor/Generator. I must say, his Dynamo sure does
look
> familiar. ;-)
> NEW! - The International Tesla Electric Company - Check out this
recorded
> video seminar. What it
> looks like is they have married a MagneticGenerator type device to an
> efficient generator and built a
> distribution model around it which will eventually obsolete the internal
> combustion engine and coal
> fired power generation. The rest of the video, power transmission via
> insulators etc, is a farce. It's static
> electricity but nothing really usable. If the guy could perform the same
> stunt with an incandescent
> bulb, THEN I'd be impressed. This guy has all the markings of a
snake-oil
> salesman so be very careful
> about any dealings with him.
> The Institute for New Energy: Advanced Physics and Applications
> The home of Primordial Energy - THE place for information from Bruce
> Depalma
> Real Audio link to "Sightings" radio broadcast of 8/28/1997
> A must hear telephone interview with Bruce Depalma. Play it in
> the background as you browse this site.
>
>
>
> And in fairness, equal time for the skeptics:
> Eric's history of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines
> This fine gentleman also offers a $5000 cash prize for anyone who
can
> demonstrate proof
> of perpetual motion or over unity at
> http://www.syc.org/e/freetest.html. I dare say that
> anyone who reproduces this device stands to earn far more than $5000
> for their trouble
> but, hey, it's a start.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ----
>
> Designed and hosted by New England Webmasters.
> The information presented here is 100% copyright free
> and my gift to humanity. Pass it on.
>
> And, of course, the standard disclaimer: While every precaution has, in
good
> faith, been taken in the preparation of this website to ensure accuracy,
all
> information presented herein is without warranty, expressed or implied.
New
> England Webmasters assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions, or
for
> damages of any kind resulting directly or indirectly from the information
> presented herein.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard on the Zappy list that Evercell is bankrupt. Anybody know for
sure? Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Danny Ames wrote:
> > Anyone gone more than 16k miles on an AGM pack ?
>
> Lee Hart worte:
> Yes, that is actually pretty good for AGMs. That would be about 500
> cycles at 32 miles per cycle. To get longer life, I suspect you'd have
> to keep your depth of discharge even shallower, or use pretty special
> batteries and management techniques.
True enough. I have 20,000 miles on 12 of the 13 East Penn Gel-Techs in the
1995 Solectria "Force" we drive. The trips have been mostly short and the
discharges mostly shallow. But what I really credit is the BADICHEQ charge
management system I added that individually brings the blocks _gently_ up to
full charge every time it is plugged in. If I the BADICHEQ had been there on
day one, I'm convinced all 13 blocks would be original.
lecture_mode
I've said it before, and will say it again. I am convinced that the thing that
kills longs strings of cells is treating the string as if all the cells are
identical. In my Force, the BADICHEQ treats each block of 6 cells as identical
and that is a big improvement, but if you want all the cells to last and last
you have to treat them as individuals. You can do it by hand or with
automatically, but you have to do it. The "old fashioned" flooded lead-acid
batteries are designed for periodic equalization and replacing the water. The
"modern" sealed chemistries are not, so avoiding anything that abuses them is
crucial to long life.
/lecture_mode
--
Mike Bianchi
Read the Tour de Sol Reports at
http://www.foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a line on a 1964 Datsun 1200 pickup truck.
John W are you listening.
I think it would make a great conversion.
Would anyone know the Curb and Gross vehicle weight on this truck?
It's missing the bed. Anyone know where to look for this?
Any help would be appreciated.
Dennis
Elsberry, MO.
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yes, confirmed.
-Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 7:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Evercell out of business?
I have heard on the Zappy list that Evercell is bankrupt. Anybody know for
sure? Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George wrote:
> just showin up at the track with a torque monster guarantees
> you NOTHING,
> just because those folks may be running "stock" tractors
> doesn't mean that they
> haven't done their "homework", many take the sport VERY
> seriously and have many
> years of pulling experience,,,unless you can say the same I'd
> advise you
> watch what you boast of as it may be YOU who goes home
> without a "notch" in yer
> gunbelt, seen it happen on a regular basis the little guy (small
> engine/investment,,,etc.) takin home the spoils of "war"..lol...
>
> the racers maxim,,,in order to finish first....you must first
> finish,,,now
> ain't that the truth !!!
Very wise words.
Story #1:
Years ago I attended an amateur motorcycle road race at Willow Springs
in California. Strolling through the pits is lots of fun. You never
know what you'll find. I came across an old ratty British one-lunger
(BSA 440 Victor?) that was leaning against a milk crate. A few tools
strewn around, the rider wasn't in sight. By the looks of it I figured
he would run in the 500 cc Production class, probably picking up the
rear. My thoughts were, "This guy has got to win the Press On
Regardless award."
When the flag dropped for the 500 Production final, Mr. P.O.R. was
somewhere mid-pack. In a few laps he was in front and never looked
back. Lots of high-dollar, very modern machinery was fighting for
second in his chugga-chugga wake.
Story #2:
When I was a wrench on an AMA Superbike team, we used to have fun by
telling all the speed-crazed Ricky-Racer groupies that hung around
*exactly* what we did to make our bikes fast. The honest truth, no
fudging. They would take our advice and buy the exact same trick parts
or make the same modifications that we did to their bikes, and get very
disappointing results.
Lesson:
A racer is a system. All the parts, no matter what they are, must work
together. Getting them to do that takes *lots* of time and
experimentation. Then you need to integrate your optimized system into
a larger system that includes the race track and all its particular
quirks on that day.
It's not the trick parts or killer modifications that bring success.
It's experience and the ability to learn from it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 68 Datsun and a mid-70's one. But MO is a long way from AZ.
I was planning to convert the 68 but my wife keeps complaining about
having those trucks in the back yard, I haven't gotten around to it (no
extra money - no extra time) and I think I'd rather build something
small and aerodynamic if I get around to it. So it's available as a
donor for a reasonable price if anybody wants it. The newer one is a
king cab but unfortunately I don't have the title, so it's pretty much
for parts unless you want to chase down the previous owner, or move it
to one of those states where they don't give a hoot. The bed from it
is a different style, but you could try to use it on yours maybe if you
don't care about matching exactly. I don't know anything about how
easy that would be.
I have extra parts too - an extra tranny or two, etc. I think one of
them is a 5-speed.
--- "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a line on a 1964 Datsun 1200 pickup truck.
> John W are you listening.
> I think it would make a great conversion.
>
> Would anyone know the Curb and Gross vehicle weight on this truck?
> It's missing the bed. Anyone know where to look for this?
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is anyone here familiar with the Alfa Romeo, Alfetta GT. I found
one in the weeds (literally, during the summer, you cannot see
this car, so the interior may be shot). I really like the exterior
styling of it, and may consider it a donor car for an EV project.
I haven't taken a real close look at it yet, if anyone on the list
has any first hand knowledge of these and can say go for it, or
forget it, I would appreciate the advise.
Thanks,
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops I forgot to mention, I have already commited David Rodens
advice to memory, and it will be considered. So replies about
older vehicles, hard to find parts, and restoring while converting
need not be made.
I'm looking specifically for info about; existing handling issues,
bad suspension design, that kind of thing. SPECIFIC to this
vehicle.
Thanks,
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
>
>
>Is anyone here familiar with the Alfa Romeo, Alfetta GT. I found
>one in the weeds (literally, during the summer, you cannot see
>this car, so the interior may be shot). I really like the
exterior
>styling of it, and may consider it a donor car for an EV project.
>
>I haven't taken a real close look at it yet, if anyone on the
list
>has any first hand knowledge of these and can say go for it, or
>forget it, I would appreciate the advise.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Stay Charged!
>Hump
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jack and All,
--- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really
> matter much, I have to
> disagree with that one. I have for many years used
> my hands in place of a
> voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on
> + & - 48V, + & - 24V and
> + & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of
> 110V. 110V AC I consider
> dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous
This is a bunch of crap. 130vdc is dangerous as
those on the list have told you. And 300vdc is a lot
worse.
If you want to keep playing with it it's your
butt but don't go telling others it's safe as we know
better.
In the right conditions 48vdc is also dangerous
and correct pratice should be followed.
So go wash your hands to simulate sweat, then
grab the 130vdc + and - terminals, 1 in each hand and
post back what you find out.
jerry dycus
> to touch. That's why I
> was asking the question about the higher DC
> voltages. I wasn't really
> looking for an "Osha" or "UL" statement on this
> question, just someone who
> has actually been shocked by a 300V pack. Although
> this info is really good
> for the newbie to digest and understand.
> Jack.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SPRING BRAKE
Green Car Club's Inaugural Member Event!
Limerick, Pennsylvania
Saturday
April 10, 2004
9:00 AM -- 2:00 PM
Dear Green Car Enthusiast:
It is not too late to register for our April 10th "Spring Brake" event, the
first gathering of actual and aspiring green car owners under the banner of the
Green Car Club!
The day kicks off at 9AM at Tri County Toyota sharing coffee and donuts and
test drives in the fabulous new 2004 Toyota Prius. Next we will compete in a
fun road rally through the scenic Southeast Pennsylvania countryside vying for
trophies in the "Best Gas Mileage" and "Best Observer" categories. Lastly we
will have lunch and visit the nation's best collection of antique and modern
electric automobiles at the Boyertown Museum of Historic Vehicles!
http://www.BoyertownMuseum.org/
Saturday, April 10th, will be a wonderful day of fascinating chat, fun
activities, and great opportunities to share your interest with other like-
minded enthusiasts. You can visit the Green Car Club website for more details,
http://www.GreenCarClub.org/
or send me an email at to sign up.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The fee for the day is $25 per person which includes lunch and refreshments,
rally trophies and admission to the museum.
If you like green cars, then this day can't miss offering you an exciting and
rewarding time to share with others of our club's growing membership. I look
forward to meeting you there!
Sincerely,
John Murphy
Green Car Club Technical Correspondent
and "Spring Brake" Rally Master
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Outline of Activities:
9:00 Meet at Tri-County Toyota, Limerick, PA (actually Royersford)
Socialize and swap stories with fellow club members over coffee and donuts.
Chat with other members about their cars. See the new 2004 Toyota Prius and,
if desired, take a test drive.
10:30 Fuel Minders' Road Rally.
A fun rally traveling country roads to Boyertown, Pa and to the Boyertown
Museum of Historic Vehicles. Prizes awarded for most accurate observations and
best fuel economy (preliminary details enclosed).
11:30 Arrive Boyertown.
Collect rally score sheets and final fuel economy data, have a short break
followed by an official welcome to the Museum.
12:00 Lunch (catered at the Museum)
Discussion of future plans for the Green Car Club and details of the
upcoming Tour de Sol. Award trophies to rally and fuel economy winners.
1:00 Guided tour of the museum.
Focusing on most significant cars and vast antique and modern electric auto
collection.
2:00 Adjourn
Directions:
Tri-County Toyota, Royersford, PA 19468
610-495-4588
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?country=US&zipcode=19468&cat=Tri+County+Toyota&city=royersford&state=PA&submit=MapQuest+Search
--
Mike Bianchi, for John Murphy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much, I have to
> disagree with that one. I have for many years used my hands in place of a
> voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on + & - 48V, + & - 24V
and
> + & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of 110V. 110V AC I
consider
> dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous to touch. That's why I
> was asking the question about the higher DC voltages. I wasn't really
> looking for an "Osha" or "UL" statement on this question, just someone who
> has actually been shocked by a 300V pack. Although this info is really
good
> for the newbie to digest and understand.
> Jack.
It's really important to understand that everyone reacts to voltages
differently. For example, I can touch 110 50 times in one day and have no
ill effects, but 120VDC gives me a really nasty shock and causes my hands to
convulse outwards. (handy, since it means I always let go of it, but not
handy if there's a ledge or sharp object in the way) And 288VDC is downright
miserable - gave me a cramp that lasted for two days. I've never hit 240VAC,
but I hear rumors it holds on and bites you right back. Point being, my
reactions are totally different from yours. Don't encourage the newbies to
think it's safe to hit 120VDC, because some of them might be more like me
than you ;-)
In any case, it's important to remember that your reaction to high voltages
not only varies from person to person, but changes over your lifespan - for
example, the drive voltage for a television grid used to merely be
unpleasent to me, but now feels like it might stop my heart.. it also makes
a big difference if your hands are sweaty, and also how large a cross
section of the wire/terminal/whatever you touch. For example, zap yourself
through two socket wrenches held firmly in your hand and I promise you it
will be a lot more memorable than zapping yourself by merely brushing a
wire..
IMHO, it's best to treat all DC voltages above 48V and all AC voltages above
110 like they were lethal. It's a lot better to use too much care than not
enough. It's true that 99% of the time a electrical shock won't kill you -
but the problem is, it's hard to know WHICH 99% of the time it is. ;-) Let's
not go out playing russion roulette with our batteries.. ;-)
When I was training to be a electrician, we had a saying.. 'Work it hot or
ground it cold' - which meant, either treat a wire as if it were hot,
handling only with insulated tools, or make sure, through some mechanical
means, that it can't possibly be. Whenever possible, the latter is
preferable.
I've been as guilty as the next guy in 'assuming' my isolation was good and
casually reaching into my traction pack.. and never gotten more than a mild
tickle or two - but it's not a good practice to follow.
Let's all be safe out there. ;-)
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> Speaking of fireballing DC motors, is it possible to do similar damage
> to AC motors?
>
> I have been known to take rather steep hills at high power ([EMAIL PROTECTED]
> volts) in the Prizm. Also have been known to "hold" it for a few seconds
> using the motor instead of the brake.
>
> What's the fault mode for brushless motors?
>
> Chris
Hold it a second there. 300 battery amps on a Gizzley and a Kostov fan
make the full 800 motor amps that the Grizz could deliver.
Whimpy Ac drives, limit the phase current to 295 amps, Well this is a
far cry from 800 Amps DC.I2R says the heating is a LOT more.
Also most Ac drives have some kind of thermal sensor in the motor.
The Kostoy died a serious Death, Much harder and nastier than mine. I
did not toss comm bar chunks. This motor at least the Armature is Junk,
and NON repairable.
Unless you want to pay the Big buck to have a new comm braised on. This
costs about as much as the motor did new.
I also have a Dead Kostov, in the Fiero. It blew a brush tower lead.
Fixable. While in the motor the Commutator looked rather bad. But
servicable.
I most certainly have less respect for Kostov's than I did a couple of
years ago. In the light of the last couple of Dead Kostys, I think maybe
I need to install a AvDC 9 incher into the Fiero. But mine also needs a
new Comm, since it's had a very nasty life before it arrived in my
hands.
Fried comms and you start to look at your AC motor collection, and the
pile of IGBT Modules, and reailze the Brushes CAN be engineered out of
the picture.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There other thing to remeber is that if you happen to have something
that conducts electricity fall across the batteries , and it will happen
at 12V. It will get hot very quickly and may melt or turn into a ball
of plasma, HEY JOHN, or you may get an explosion from the batteries out
gasing.
I once blew the battery out of my bosses 3 day old truck, jump starting
my work truck.... ICE powered trucks.
If you are wearing jewlery TAKE IT OFF before working with electricity,
it doesn't matter wether you are working with AC or DC.
I was tightening a wrench on some batteriery terminals one time and
happened to have the wrench against a ring when the ring touched the
body of the car. It got very hot very fast. I was lucky and it didn't
get too hot.
I have a buddy that has a circular scar around his neck from a set of
dog tags that fell across the terminals of a pair of batteriees in a
Duce and a half.
So be careful and assume you are going to get bit, and take precautions.
Better safe that sorry!
Bob
Lee Hart wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You guys got me so excited I went out and bought a garden tractor
yesterday with a blown ICE. I have 5 12 HP motors.
Yikes! These motors are big enough for a full-sized tractor! In a small
garden tractor, they would just spin the tires or break something.
About being shocked, I know with complete certianty that 48 volts
@ 8000 amps will not hurt one to touch. I also know that 130 volts
@ 2000 amps will give you a nice little tingle but will still not
hurt you. (And we are talking DC).
AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much.
What I don't know for certain is what about the higher DC voltages
I will be working with eventually, Is there any real danger from
touching a 144 to 300 vdc battery pack?
144vdc is roughly equivalent to 120vac; 300vdc is roughly like 240vac.
Both are dangerous, and will be fatal if your hands are wet!
The current of the source has nothing to do with it. It's basically the
voltage that matters. The higher it is, the more dangerous.
People say "current kills", and that is sort-of true. It is indeed the
current that flows in your body that does the damage. You start to feel
it around 0.001 amps (1 milliamp), and even 0.01 amps (10 milliamps) can
kill you.
But it takes voltage to make the current flow. Your body has a certain
resistance, but it varies wildly between individuals, whether your skin
is wet or dry, etc. So when you touch some voltage source, it's the
voltage and your body resistance that determine the current. How much
power the source can deliver does not matter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack;
The way it was explained to me a long time ago in class was this way.
AC mayl let you go, DC won't.
Bob
Jack Knopf wrote:
Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much, I have to
disagree with that one. I have for many years used my hands in place of a
voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on + & - 48V, + & - 24V and
+ & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of 110V. 110V AC I consider
dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous to touch. That's why I
was asking the question about the higher DC voltages. I wasn't really
looking for an "Osha" or "UL" statement on this question, just someone who
has actually been shocked by a 300V pack. Although this info is really good
for the newbie to digest and understand.
Jack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, that's what I am trying to get at, the real world facts, are you sure
you don't have that backward's, my experience tells me that DC may let you
go, but AC won't. I've had to knock a couple of electricians off a ladder to
get them off the AC circuit but never seen anyone stay on DC?
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: Shocked
> Jack;
>
> The way it was explained to me a long time ago in class was this way.
>
> AC mayl let you go, DC won't.
>
> Bob
>
> Jack Knopf wrote:
>
> > Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much, I have to
> >disagree with that one. I have for many years used my hands in place of a
> >voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on + & - 48V, + & - 24V
and
> >+ & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of 110V. 110V AC I
consider
> >dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous to touch. That's why
I
> >was asking the question about the higher DC voltages. I wasn't really
> >looking for an "Osha" or "UL" statement on this question, just someone
who
> >has actually been shocked by a 300V pack. Although this info is really
good
> >for the newbie to digest and understand.
> >Jack.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have done it many times Jerry, both sweaty armpits across 130 volt buss.
But your right, play it safe if you don't know. The other guy was right
about the difference in people as well, the less intelligent you are the
more you will get shocked.
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Shocked
> Hi Jack and All,
> --- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really
> > matter much, I have to
> > disagree with that one. I have for many years used
> > my hands in place of a
> > voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on
> > + & - 48V, + & - 24V and
> > + & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of
> > 110V. 110V AC I consider
> > dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous
>
> This is a bunch of crap. 130vdc is dangerous as
> those on the list have told you. And 300vdc is a lot
> worse.
> If you want to keep playing with it it's your
> butt but don't go telling others it's safe as we know
> better.
> In the right conditions 48vdc is also dangerous
> and correct pratice should be followed.
> So go wash your hands to simulate sweat, then
> grab the 130vdc + and - terminals, 1 in each hand and
> post back what you find out.
> jerry dycus
>
> > to touch. That's why I
> > was asking the question about the higher DC
> > voltages. I wasn't really
> > looking for an "Osha" or "UL" statement on this
> > question, just someone who
> > has actually been shocked by a 300V pack. Although
> > this info is really good
> > for the newbie to digest and understand.
> > Jack.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I no longer even try to work on my cars after having a wrench make a lot
of sparks and partly melt when I was trying to swap my own battery pack
and allowed one end of the wrench to touch the frame while the other end
was on the battery post. It also caused a lot of smoke to emanate from
the inside of my Commutacar, which made it appear that the whole car was
on fire. Fortunately only a few wires burned up and our
mechanical/electrical guru from DRI came over, put everything back
together for me and installed the batteries.
I thought I was following the instructions he had given me about
disconnecting some cable before doing anything else, but I picked the
wrong one. Also, Jan Himber had given me some wrenches with tape over one
end to prevent such mishaps, but I couldn't find them in my house (I even
lose the ironing board sometimes it is such a mess in there), so I grabbed
another set which didn't have the tape. My other usual cautionary step is
to wrap a rubber glove around the end of the wrench I am not working with,
but I guess I just didn't bother to find one that day.
Richard Furniss has become my repair person as I decided I am totally
incompetent in this area and am not about to touch anything with wires
connected again. I love to drive EVs but like nearly all drivers of any
cars, I want a shop where I can drop them for repairs.
Gail
On Thu, 25 Mar 2004, Bob Brooks wrote:
> I was tightening a wrench on some batteriery terminals one time and
> happened to have the wrench against a ring when the ring touched the
> body of the car. It got very hot very fast. I was lucky and it didn't
> get too hot.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.greaterthings.com/News/FreeEnergy/Directory/MagneticMotors/Bowman/
Oh, yeah, just like this one. So concincing that I may try it
with my kids as a "science" project:
http://fdp.nu/triangle/default.asp#TriGate
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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