EV Digest 3424
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(COBASYS was Ovonic: an Oil slick by any other name)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(Autech for old EV'rs
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Portland EV Show
by Randy Holmquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Kostov Fireballed?
by Randy Holmquist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Air conditioner and power steering pumps
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Holding still with AC motor - corection (Re: Kostov Fireballed?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Truck Conversion
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Air conditioner and power steering pumps
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Holding still with AC motor - corection (Re: Kostov
Fireballed?)
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Shocked
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Shocked & Different People React Different Ways
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Shocked
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Shocked
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Air conditioner and power steering pumps
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AGM Lead batteries - Crap they where out - even special car and feeding.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Tom Hanks = Big EV Fan
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Air conditioner and power steering pumps
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Kostov Fireballed?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Air conditioner and power steering pumps
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Kostov Fireballed?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: CE racing at Firebird tonight
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) ICE breakers,,,thoughts on pulling
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
29) Battery racks in progress
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) FWD: Re: Advanced Dc motors
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(COBASYS was Ovonic: an Oil slick by any other name)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.theautochannel.com/N/news/2004/03/17/185197.html
Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems Changes Name to COBASYS
Name change reflects focus on expanding field for NiMH storage
solutions
TROY, Mich., March 17 -- Texaco Ovonic Battery Systems LLC
announced today it has changed its name
to COBASYS. The name change to COBASYS reflects the company's
focus on the expanding fields for
Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) storage solutions in both the
transportation and stationary power
markets. COBASYS is a joint venture between Texaco Energy
Systems L.L.C., a unit of ChevronTexaco
Technology Ventures LLC, and a unit of Energy Conversion
Devices, Inc., the pioneer in the
development of high power, high energy NiMH batteries.
In commenting on the name change, Thomas S. Neslage, President
and CEO of COBASYS, said "The new
name better signifies our emerging business model of becoming a
world class battery system solutions
company. Although our name is new, we remain fully committed to
providing the most advanced,
effective battery system solutions and rising to the challenge
of two rapidly changing marketplaces.
This year will mark the rollout of exciting new, high quality
products and systems that have been
years in development."
COBASYS has developed a broad family of new products and
services to serve the increasing needs of
energy storage. Its NiMHax(TM) transportation battery systems
provide flexible solutions that meet
the growing power and energy requirements for Light-Duty,
Medium-Duty and Heavy-Duty Hybrid Electric
Vehicle applications, as well as 42 Volt and Electric Vehicle
applications in the transportation
industry. COBASYS is also at the forefront in developing
integrated emergency and stand-by power
systems solutions for Telecommunications -- NiCOM(TM) and
Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) --
NiGUARD(TM) applications.
COBASYS will continue offering products with the signature
"[EMAIL PROTECTED](R)." Ovonic(R) Nickel Metal
Hydride technology offers clear advantages over competing
technologies, with more than twice the
energy and cycle life of conventional lead-acid batteries. The
batteries are rechargeable, smaller,
safe, maintenance free and environmentally friendly.
Raymond Wagner, Vice President of Marketing, is directing the
transition to the COBASYS name and he
stated that "COBASYS is being positioned as a leader in Nickel
Metal Hydride battery solutions,
committed to providing battery-powered energy systems which
deliver excellent performance, value and
reliability. Our plans are to introduce several lines of
production validated battery solutions for
transportation, stationary and telecommunications applications
that range from 8.5 to 180 amp.
hours."
COBASYS completed construction of a new 170,000 square foot
manufacturing facility in Springboro,
Ohio during 2003. The facility includes state-of-the- art
manufacturing with ISO and QS production
certifications and expects to be capable of producing 1.2
million battery modules annually at full
capacity.
Along with the new name, COBASYS has a new website. For more
information about COBASYS people and
products, please contact:
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Autech for old EV'rs)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/japan_it_auto_elderly
Technology - AFP
Japanese firm developing electric cars that help elderly to
drive
Fri Mar 5, 5:32 AM ET
TOKYO (AFP) - A Japanese carmaker is developing an electric
vehicle
that can help elderly drivers with braking and steering by
detecting
slow responses and a lack of attentiveness, officials said.
AFP Photo
Autech Japan Inc., affiliated with Nissan Motor Co. Ltd., aims
to
launch the Micro Utility Vehicle in Japan in 2006 in
co-operation
with Tokyo University and other institutions.
The vehicle would be equipped with sensors and cameras that
would
examine movements of the driver's arms, legs and eyes and detect
shortcomings in his or her driving skills.
The final product would be priced at between one and 1.5 million
yen
(9,000-13,500 dollars), a company official said Friday.
Autech and collaborators are now analysing how advanced age
affects
a driver's physical responses and assessment of situations and
developing computer programmes to determine the best assistance
method.
"It is necessary to provide an easy-to-drive, safe means of
transport for elderly people to enable their social
participation,"
Autech and its collaborators said in a project plan. The number
of
senior drivers is expected to surge given Japan's rapidly
greying
society.
Autech has already developed an electric-powered prototype
one-seater, which runs at a maximum speed of 60 kilometres per
hour
(37 miles per hour).
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can totally understand this with a DC motor: You're not moving the
commutator, and basically you're holding the car with a fraction of the
motor. Exceptionally bad and a good way to burn dead spots onto your
armature.
However an AC motor does not have that concept. And most AC motors are
liquid cooled. So what is the potential damage?
Chris
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Lee Hart warned strenously against using any motor as a hill holder. Real
bad idea. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Portland Community College is hosting 2004 National AFV Day Odyssey on
Friday April 2nd.
We are going down for this show with our new Might-E Truck Jr.
http://www.canev.com/Commercial/CEV/MightTruck/Junior.html
We will also have one of our 3 ton Isuzu truck conversions
http://www.canev.com/Commercial/FMI/FMI.html
and a customers converted S-10.
Hope to see some of the locals who I have not seen for a few years.
BFN
Randy
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave, sorry to hear about your dead Kostov.
I have 11 dead ones lined up along the shop wall.
You buy a Kostov and they don't come with Warranty. :(
We have switched back to ADC and have had no problems.
BFN
Randy
> So, time to sleep on this and get a fresh perspective on problem. Meanwhile,
> maybe the sage EV motorheads out there will have some theories about what
> went wrong and what should be done to prevent this from happening again.
>
> Bummed,
>
> Dave (now fireballed) Luiz
>
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, I'm trying to plan ahead. When it gets to Florida, my EV will need
an air conditioner; I figured I'd run the air conditioning and power
steering pumps off the same motor. The air conditioner's pump should
include an electric clutch to turn it on and off; meanwhile, I can't
find a decent motor. I checked evparts, but everything there is 24V or
greater, and several hundred dollars. I'm really looking for less than
$150 and 12V (so I can run it off the converter).
Any help?
Judebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
...
But if you try to hold a AC motor stalled all day you will likely damage
it, and it wouldn't take anywhere near all day to kill the motor. What
happens is that the rotor overheats. The rotor usually does not have a
temperature sensor on it so the only chance for the controller to save
it would be predictive algorithms. I don't know if the Siemens systems
have that, they may, but all they can do is to limit power to the motor
so it will no longer hold the torque and then you will no longer be
holding the hill.
I forgot to mention, Otmar, that above statement applies only to the
AC induction motors which have current tunning through the rotor's
shorted windings.
It does not apply to the common synchronous PM AC motors, which
you can literally hold still on the hill all day long as
long as you cool off the stator windings, which is no problem.
Practically no current flows in the rotor, so no heat generated by it.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
However an AC motor does not have that concept. And most AC motors are
liquid cooled. So what is the potential damage?
Chris
Electric slip generates current in the rotor which in turn
generates heat. With small currents it's no problem,
with large currents the rotor will eventually overheat.
Depending on the mass of the motor this may take several
minutes. I routinely hold ACRX with accelerator pedal totally
still on mild city roads inclines - no problems so far.
A commutator of a DC motor on the other hand fails instantly -
stalled brushed motor has no back EMF and represents very low
resistance. DC gurus will comment on this better than I can.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
"Pestka, Dennis J" wrote:
> I have a line on a 1964 Datsun 1200 pickup truck.
> John W are you listening.
Yup!
>
> I think it would make a great conversion.
Yup!
>
>
> Would anyone know the Curb and Gross vehicle weight on this truck?
Yup.
>
> It's missing the bed. Anyone know where to look for this?
Yup!
>
>
> Any help would be appreciated.
OK, here goes....let's see...a '64 Datsun pickup, that would be an N320 model, with
the super
cool rounded cab and the stark 1940's looking bed with flat slab sides. I know you
said it's
missing the bed, so that's why I'm describing it to you. The bed is pretty shop class
like, and
has a 3rd world country look.The N320 came with a 1200 cc push rod engine that was
pretty
anemic, an old tech design with just 57 hp, so they used 4:88 gears to wring out what
little
power was on tap. The early 60's Datsuns were known to ride like cement mixers when
unloaded
and would buzz like crazy at 70 mph with such low gears in back. The fact that your
truck is
missing the bed, confirms that it's not the ultra rare model, a spin-off version, the
Style
Side truck...way cool!!! The style side was still a body-on-frame design like your
truck, but
instead of a separate bed piece, the cab and bed were unibody and very stylish,
especially for
the time period, and especially when compared to the regular truck with its funky bed.
In
addition to the cool shape, the bed also sported double wall construction, a quality
construction technique that Datsun only employed with the Style Side, then abandoned
until
like Toyota, they put it on all their trucks in the 80's. These mid 60's Style Side
Datsun
trucks are highly collectable and look as if they were designed in the late 70's, not
the early
60's. Hodrodders like to get them and turn them into glossy show machines.
The N320 series truck was discontinued in '66, replaced by the new model 520 series
truck. This
was a more serious truck, with a roomier cab and a larger, more sturdy bed. The
'66-'67 model
520 trucks weighed ~ 1900 lbs. but were factory rated at 1 ton...yes, you could load
up the bed
with
1 ton and the damn thing sat level! These trucks garnered the nick name 'rough
riders', since
like their predecessor the N320, they rode very stiffly when unloaded.
The '66 had two large 7 inch round headlights, the '67 got quad 5 inch rounds, so
their face
was different...other than that, they were pretty much identical. The 520's improved
styling
won Americans over with its fun looks, it's ruggedness was legendary, and fitted with
chrome
rims and fat tires, they had a tough look that caught on with young males, including
yours
truly (I was that young wasn't I?)...the Datsun 520 pickup single handedly, started
the
minitruck revolution! Suddenly, it was hip to have a tough, cool looking Datsun
minitruck!
The next generation Datsun truck, made from '68-'72, was the 521, and was nearly
identical to
the 520, as far as the body and frame. In fact, the cab is the same...same doors, same
windshield, same roof, etc., and the bed is the same too, other than small changes to
the
inside the bed fender arch covers. The nose though, is completely different, to
accommodate
Datsun's 96 hp 1600cc OHC engine, the L16, the same feisty engine that powered the
famous
Datsun 510 sedan. The 520's cute, rounded snout was replaced with a flatter, longer
hood, and
longer, more angular fenders, too. The 521 was a handsome design, and weighed ~ 2100
lbs.
Though they could still carry 1 ton, Datsun officially called the 521 a half ton
truck. The
larger, more powerful 1600cc engine didn't need the super low gears in back, so the
521 came
with a 4:38 ratio. Fitted with alloy rims and wide, low profile tires, with it's near
100 hp
engine the stiffly sprung 521 when equipped with better shocks and dropped a few
inches, turned
into a sports car with a huge trunk! The 521 pickup was a fun import truck that could
be
tricked out with Nissan Comp. racing parts, to where it had 175 hp and could bark the
tires in
3rd gear...what fun!
In '73, the 520 series ended, and was replaced by the trendy styled 620 series. The
620 truck
was pretty much the same frame as a 520 or 521, but had a totally restyled cab and
bed, and
came with front disc brakes for the first time. In '73, it had an 1800 cc version of
the L16
engine, the L18, and from '74 through '77, it had an L20B two liter engine.
In a nut shell....the N320 trucks were built and sold in small numbers, and came
either as a
regular truck or the very rare Style Side. Only one bed fits this truck.
The '67-72 520 & 521 trucks are larger and more updated. These trucks all share the
same bed,
and they are all interchangeable. All the trucks are in the 1900-2100 lb. range, all
can carry
1 ton.
Hope this helps.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have any more details regarding
the 12Vdc motor? RPM and power.
I have some 'stuff' in the basement that
may be suitable.
Rod
--- Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, I'm trying to plan ahead. When it gets to
> Florida, my EV will need
> an air conditioner; I figured I'd run the air
> conditioning and power
> steering pumps off the same motor. The air
> conditioner's pump should
> include an electric clutch to turn it on and off;
> meanwhile, I can't
> find a decent motor. I checked evparts, but
> everything there is 24V or
> greater, and several hundred dollars. I'm really
> looking for less than
> $150 and 12V (so I can run it off the converter).
>
> Any help?
>
> Judebert
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 6:08 PM -0800 3-25-04, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Otmar wrote:
...
But if you try to hold a AC motor stalled all day you will likely
damage it, and it wouldn't take anywhere near all day to kill the
motor. What happens is that the rotor overheats. The rotor usually
does not have a temperature sensor on it so the only chance for the
controller to save it would be predictive algorithms. I don't know
if the Siemens systems have that, they may, but all they can do is
to limit power to the motor so it will no longer hold the torque
and then you will no longer be holding the hill.
I forgot to mention, Otmar, that above statement applies only to the
AC induction motors which have current tunning through the rotor's
shorted windings.
It does not apply to the common synchronous PM AC motors, which
you can literally hold still on the hill all day long as
long as you cool off the stator windings, which is no problem.
Practically no current flows in the rotor, so no heat generated by it.
Of course this is true. I mentioned induction in the paragraph below
the one you quoted when I described why the heat is an issue, but
maybe I wasn't very clear about the distinction.
A PM AC motor can indeed act like a stepper motor and hold position all day.
I'm curious, you mention a "common synchronous PM AC motor", how
common are these? Do you know of any reasonably powerful PM AC
motors available for conversions? If so I'd be very curious to know
what the no-load eddy current losses are for them at cruise speed. My
past experiences with thinking about the data for them is that they
don't seem to make sense for high power EV drives. (I believe this
was all discussed a few weeks ago). I can't think of one over 70KW
myself, except Uniq's vaporware. But my opinions are only based on
limited data (I seem to remember that a car with a 120 hp Uniq motor
would lose over 1600 watts while coasting at 60 mph due to eddy
current losses). That seemed like too much when you figure that a
efficient car may use 9 KW total at that speed. (recent coast down
tests on my Insight showed that figure)
I can often be wrong and would love to learn more about this. In this
case I'm basing my opinion on very little data, and I'd love to have
my opinions about synchronous AC motors changed since they do have
the potential for such high efficiency. The Japanese seem to like
them, but I've only seen them in EV's with low peak to cruise power
ratios (EV+ and RA4-EV). Does anyone have light load losses vs. RPM
data for EV sized PM AC motors? I'd love to see it.
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla controllers in production, see them here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi Dave, sorry to hear about your dead Kostov.
> I have 11 dead ones lined up along the shop wall.
> You buy a Kostov and they don't come with Warranty. :(
> We have switched back to ADC and have had no problems.
>
> BFN
> Randy
Wow! I didn't realize there have been so many Kostov failures. Back when I
was deciding on which motor to use, the Kostov came highly regarded from EV
list "gurus". Do any of the 11 dead one's have salvageable commutators. I
haven't totally taken mine apart but from what I can see, it's not
repairable.
Just curious about your comment of switching back to ADC. Why did you switch
to Kostov in the first place? Was there some quality problem that ADC has
resolved?
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Holmquist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 5:38 PM
Subject: Kostov Fireballed?
> Hi Dave, sorry to hear about your dead Kostov.
> I have 11 dead ones lined up along the shop wall.
> You buy a Kostov and they don't come with Warranty. :(
> We have switched back to ADC and have had no problems.
>
> BFN
> Randy
I'm impressed. 11 dead Kostovs! What happened to them?
Did most of them suffer from commuator and brush failures?
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 11:08, jerry dycus wrote:
> Hi Jack and All,
> --- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really
> > matter much, I have to
> > disagree with that one. I have for many years used
> > my hands in place of a
> > voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on
> > + & - 48V, + & - 24V and
> > + & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of
> > 110V. 110V AC I consider
> > dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous
>
> This is a bunch of crap. 130vdc is dangerous as
> those on the list have told you. And 300vdc is a lot
> worse.
I'm going to second Jerry on this. I've been bitten several times by
both 110V AC and 128V DC. They both feel roughly the same to me
(neither is pleasant). But I've been lucky in that none of these times
was I particularly sweaty or wet.
Either voltage and DC/AC can kill you just as quick under the right
situation. NEITHER of the is "safe"
Heck, theoretically 48V DC can kill you, I've never heard of it
happening, but it's possible.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> When I was training to be a electrician, we had a saying.. 'Work it hot or
> ground it cold' - which meant, either treat a wire as if it were hot,
> handling only with insulated tools, or make sure, through some mechanical
> means, that it can't possibly be. Whenever possible, the latter is
> preferable.
When I was in the military they taught us to keep one hand in your
pocket when working on electrical circuits (the rubber soles on our
electrical safety boots protected us from providing a ground path).
It's good advice when you can manage it. I prevents you from making a
circuit from one hand to the other (through your heart)
Of course I was Air Force and we were kind of famous for having our
hands in our pockets (ask anyone in the Army)
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 12:35, Bob Brooks wrote:
> Jack;
>
> The way it was explained to me a long time ago in class was this way.
>
> AC mayl let you go, DC won't.
>
> Bob
"May" let you go is right.
I think it kind of depends on the AC signal. I have a TENNS unit for
neck pain. It sends a small AC current through a portion of your body
to block pain signals. If I adjust it right and crank up the level it
will cause the nearby muscles to contract HARD and it's not possible to
make them relax.
And when I say crank it up, we are talking milli amps here.
> >
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Either one will cause the muscles to contract. The key is which
muscles. If they are the muscles that push you away, you're in luck.
If they are the muscles that make you grab/pull, you're screwed.
On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 12:44, Jack Knopf wrote:
> Bob, that's what I am trying to get at, the real world facts, are you sure
> you don't have that backward's, my experience tells me that DC may let you
> go, but AC won't. I've had to knock a couple of electricians off a ladder to
> get them off the AC circuit but never seen anyone stay on DC?
> Jack.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Shocked
>
>
> > Jack;
> >
> > The way it was explained to me a long time ago in class was this way.
> >
> > AC mayl let you go, DC won't.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > Jack Knopf wrote:
> >
> > > Lee Hart wrote: AC or DC, it doesn't really matter much, I have to
> > >disagree with that one. I have for many years used my hands in place of a
> > >voltmeter in a critical situation. This had been on + & - 48V, + & - 24V
> and
> > >+ & - 130V. I can not do that with an AC voltage of 110V. 110V AC I
> consider
> > >dangerous to touch, 130V DC I know is not dangerous to touch. That's why
> I
> > >was asking the question about the higher DC voltages. I wasn't really
> > >looking for an "Osha" or "UL" statement on this question, just someone
> who
> > >has actually been shocked by a 300V pack. Although this info is really
> good
> > >for the newbie to digest and understand.
> > >Jack.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-03-25 at 18:59, Jude Anthony wrote:
> So, I'm trying to plan ahead. When it gets to Florida, my EV will need
> an air conditioner; I figured I'd run the air conditioning and power
> steering pumps off the same motor. The air conditioner's pump should
> include an electric clutch to turn it on and off; meanwhile, I can't
> find a decent motor. I checked evparts, but everything there is 24V or
> greater, and several hundred dollars. I'm really looking for less than
> $150 and 12V (so I can run it off the converter).
LOL, clearly you don't understand how much current you are talking
about.
The AC is going to need 800-1500 watts, the power steering probably
500+.
That works out to about 150+ amps at 12V, is you DC-DC really that big?
Get a 2hp motor that runs off your pack voltage.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Chris Zach wrote:
>
> > However an AC motor does not have that concept. And most AC motors are
> > liquid cooled. So what is the potential damage?
> >
> > Chris
>
> Electric slip generates current in the rotor which in turn
> generates heat. With small currents it's no problem,
> with large currents the rotor will eventually overheat.
> Depending on the mass of the motor this may take several
> minutes. I routinely hold ACRX with accelerator pedal totally
> still on mild city roads inclines - no problems so far.
>
> A commutator of a DC motor on the other hand fails instantly -
> stalled brushed motor has no back EMF and represents very low
> resistance. DC gurus will comment on this better than I can.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
Yea We sure will
The Dc motors held still won't fail instantly. Not even with Curtis
controllers. Since the amount of Amps needed to counter act a slope will
be many times less than the full motor current limits. You can actually
do this for many seconds. Of course the steeper the hill an the taller
the gearing the less time you can get away with it.
It usually over heats a couple of comm bars, that will be heard as a
clickcing as soon as the motor is let free to spin.
So... yea it's easy, But it takes a LOT of hold time amps to Damage the
motor. I have never done it... I might find that limit recording Locked
rotor amps and Torque, but that will be done as fast as possible.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Otmar wrote:
>
> >>>What's the fault mode for brushless motors?
> >>
Fault mode on Brushless is melting a Phase that get locked on.
Or a complete melt down of the power stage results in a Shorted Stator
in brake mode. You skid.... or have to drag the Ev back to the pit with
the motor acting like it's full of really gooey tafy. Like What I did to
the MiniBike from Hell two years ago in Vancouver BC.
With perm magnets, it it's till rotating, it's still a generator... any
short results in a LOT of negative torque.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Otmar wrote:
> I seem to remember hearing that Alan Cocconi got over 30,000
miles on
> Optima YTs in his Honda. Yet that car gets closer to 130
wh/mile and
> had 28 modules. Quite the opposite of my race car.
And didn't he run it with a genset trailer many of those miles?
May make life easier in the DOD dept.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://nbeaa.org
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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Tom Hanks was on the David Letterman Show Monday night. He mentioned he
owned a new Prius but preferred his RAV4-EV. He also said he had invested
in a company that is offering EV conversions of several different models
which get 100 miles per charge - anyone have any more details on this
venture? thanks.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
LOL, clearly you don't understand how much current you are talking
about.
The AC is going to need 800-1500 watts, the power steering probably
500+.
That works out to about 150+ amps at 12V, is you DC-DC really that big?
Get a 2hp motor that runs off your pack voltage.
That's why I talk to you kind people on the list. I'll see what I can
find along those lines.
Maybe I can just hook it up to the tail shaft of the 4001A, and rig some
kind of "idle" mode for when I'm standing still...
Judebert
EVirgin
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To my way of thinking you drive an electric car as a way of making more
efficient use of resources. So why go out of your way to expend even a
small amount of energy to hold the car still when the application of the
brake will do the same for almost zero energy expenditure? Also the brake
peddle turns on the brake lights, giving drivers behind you a little more
information about what you are doing.
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
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Try www.surpluscenter.com and C & H sales at
http://aaaim.com/cgi-local/shop991/shop.pl/SID=6340228813/page=start_shoppin
g.htm. They both have a wide variety of motors, as will many other surplus
places. And, they are inexpensive.
One thing, though. You are looking for at least a 1 HP motor. 1 HP is
745.7 watts. At 12V, that requires 745.7 / 12 = 62.1 Amps. That is a lot
of current, and that doesn't take into account the current surge to start
the motor (a brief pulse at a higher current), or any inefficiency. So
you'd probably need at least 75A capacity. Considering the DCP DC-DC, it
outputs roughly 20 amps, so you'd need to stack 4 of them for a total
capacity of 80A and some breathing room. Expensive, heavy, and it takes up
battery space. To say nothing of the fact you'll probably have a hard time
finding a 1 to 1.5 HP 12V motor.
What most of us do for an auxiliary motor is to get one that runs off of
pack voltage. 80VDC, 90VDC, 100VDC, 110VDC, and 180VDC permanent magnet,
series, and shunt motors are common at these surplus places. Mostly they
are permanent magnet, which is fine for a job like PS and AC. They can
tolerate some change in supply voltage, of course, although the nominal RPM
will change, too. The current will be a lot less, and your wiring can be
smaller. Lastly, you don't need any extra DC/DC converters. Those are
getting kind of scarce, lately. What is everybody doing for DC/DC's,
anyhow?
Victor's CRX had a good example of a typical installation back when it was a
DC powered machine. Victor could probably point you to a picture.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jude Anthony [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 7:59 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Air conditioner and power steering pumps
>
> So, I'm trying to plan ahead. When it gets to Florida, my EV will need
> an air conditioner; I figured I'd run the air conditioning and power
> steering pumps off the same motor. The air conditioner's pump should
> include an electric clutch to turn it on and off; meanwhile, I can't
> find a decent motor. I checked evparts, but everything there is 24V or
> greater, and several hundred dollars. I'm really looking for less than
> $150 and 12V (so I can run it off the converter).
>
> Any help?
>
> Judebert
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The CE applies a small amount of power to its dc brush motor briefly
.5-4seconds before each run to take up any slack in its drive train.Back in its early
history(1st 700 runs)we broke many parts due to that extra slap.
Dennis Berube currenteliminator.net
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Ce will be trying its hand at a gambler tonight in chandler az. D Berube
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just want to share some thoughts on breaking into the sport of Garden Tractor
pulling,,,
1. be PREpared, do your homework,,learn beforehand what the sport is all
about, there's a lot of clubs out there, sometimes several in a region ALL with
different classes and rules,,however safety equipment and rules are fairly
"universal" but you still need to comply with rules of the club ya want to pull
with,, like "kill" switches, approved helmets and clothing (possible firesuit
requirement), fire extinguishers, antitipover bars (wheelie bars),,,etc...find
out what clubs are in your area and the differences between them, some are more
professional in function,,others are more laid back y'all come on down an' run
whatcha brung and hope ya brung enuff types
2. first and foremost this sport IS about FUN and SAFE PULLING in a family
atmosphere,, it's NOT about who's equipment is superior to whom, it will soon
become apparent just who has their "shit" together,,,,most pulls are at
County/Country Fairs, Firemen's FUNdraising events, antique Tractor shows, Sportsmen
clubs,,even a church or two,,they are also sometimes held in conjunction with
the full size pullers...there is EITHER "dead weight" pulls with a simple pan
(stone boat) covered with weights (concrete blocks,, whatever,,sometimes even
people) or the more popular/common is the "weight transfer sled" sometimes
called a "boat" (manned or unmanned), tracks are usually 150' - 200' (most
common),,sometimes upto the Full size of 300',, track widths (min. of 20' is normal)
and track quality varies greatly (sometimes hourly, depending on MANY
factors) also depending on track preparation/knowledge and track grooming equipment
available,, track composition is ideally clay based but can be just about
anything except very sandy soil,, there are even clubs in the Midwest who pull on
asphalt with lawn tires or slicks
3. show some professionalism in You AND your tractors and crews appearance
AND your behavior (dangerous
boors,,hotheads,,braggarts,,slobs,,Neanderthals,,drunks,,etc. should stay home and
are NOT welcome to participate),,,"you NEVER
get a second chance to make a FIRST impression",,,don't show up like you drug
it or you outta a swamp and that you don't know the first thing about the
sport,, be aware that these Elec-tracs were made in NY (I believe) and may only be
known in the NorthEast region,,so your chances may be better in that region,,
your chances are better also if you go together as a group of pullers (lone
rangers have a tougher time of changing the world),,,there's power in
numbers,,,,don't go in with a hostile intent or a "we will rock you" attitude (it
won't
cut the mustard),,,however,,a CANdo spirit is fine,,,if you are allowed to
play the game,,,then be prepared to pitch in with the MANY chores involved in
setting up/running/and picking up at the end,,,ain't no one making any money at
this so help with the burden,,,comraderie can be a lot of fun even if it
"feels" like work...also watch your profanity,,there are many youngsters around
even if they aren't yours, set a good example...know how things work on EV's so
you can enlighten others, you'll get many questions,,believe me,,,if ya don't
succeed at first, analyze the objections and try again after making
changes..perserverance works...
more later..gotta run...Geo
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Hi,
For anyone interested in seeing the progress of my battery racks in the
200sx, I've got some pictures and info. at
http://www.evsource.com/conversion/battery_racks.php
I'll have more stuff up in the next few days.
-Ryan
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ADC Guru's, please respond to Ed directly.
Thanks,
Hump
Stay Charged!
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Edward C Byers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 06:27:34 -0500
Since I don't really want to get 100 emails a day, could you ask
about some
mechanical data/drawings on the 4001 family?
I especially would like to know what the warning signs of brush
failure
are. I have 42K miles on odometer, and don't really know how long
the
brushes will last.
I am used to 6-month inspections on 24/7 dc equipment, but I have
never
really considered how my usage would wear carbon.
Thanks,
Ed
"T
Humphrey"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Edward C
Byers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
energy.com>
com>
cc:
Subject: Re:
Advanced Dc
motors
03/25/2004
12:28
PM
Please respond
to
thumphrey
Ed;
Yes Advance DC is about 30 minutes from me. No, I do not know the
personnel there, yet!
Are you a member of the EVDL? The people on the EVDL know
everything there is to know about the ADC 9" FB4001 motor, even
some things that ADC themselves don't know.
There is a sle of information available on the net about these
motors, I have some of the info myself, but I think if you ask the
same quation on the EVDL then you will get a better faster
response than from me.
To subscribe to the EVDL send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
and put in the message body
subscribe EV
Then ask your question again, alternately I can CC your question
to them and forward replies to you.
If you do sub to the EVDL be prepared for up to 100 e-mails per
day, none of them spam. All of them EV related.
Hope to see you there.
Stay Charged!
Hump
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Edward C Byers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 11:32:52 -0500
>
>
>
>
>I will guess that you meant you were located near advanced DC
motors, Inc.
>Do you know the personnel there?
>Is there a way to get a catalog or some tech data on the motors?
>I am running an FB4001 in my pickup truck, and would love to know
more
>about it, and have some drawings and part numbers.
>If you know someone who could be of assistance, please let me
know.
>Ed Byers
>Walnut Cove, NC
>(3) Elec Traks, JD E-90, Electric truck
>
>
>
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