EV Digest 3446
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: solar power balance
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Grin is back!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: What's happening in the pack.
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: melted trojan 105
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What's happening in the pack., Stuff
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Saab 96 EV ?
by "Will Bain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Controller isoaltion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery discharge tester needed
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Solar powered car - amorphous film
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ok, I got the relays, now I need the fuses (battery monitor, take
.1)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: melted trojan 105
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery discharge tester idea
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery discharge tester needed
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Solar powered car
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Saab 96 EV ?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: titling services?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery discharge tester idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: battery power and range
by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Controller isoaltion (Re: ACPropulsion combo on eBay)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: titling services?
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Extension cord?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Controller isoaltion
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, that would be me. I have my writings on my web site at
http://www.crystel.com
Check around. Personally I love it, and the solar charging is a lot more
efficient than going to grid-tie then back out thru the Elec-Trak's
transformer.
Chris
Jim Coate wrote:
mower as in Elec-Trak garden tractor? Chris Zak has set up his to
recharge from solar panels and can chime in with the details. However
this is a standalone system so may not apply to your situation as you
are looking at grid-tie.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Can someone send me links on the rechargeable mower project once
mentioned on this site?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> on the motor shaft, I thought I might try truing it up myself. So I
> set up a jig with hinged 2x4's, a file on the top 2x4 and a screw to
> separate them gradually. I managed to shave off the high side of the
> shaft and still get the hub to fit on tightly. When I put the flywheel
> back on, I could not detect any wobble with a dial indicator, compared
> to 20 thouh before the fix.
> See Mike. See Mike Grin.
If you saw 20 on the dial indacator the you where 10 out as you see the hi
and low add when you trun it , but thats enough ,
The file is you friend , good job.
>
> Mike Hoskinson
> Edmonton
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a normal series string, yes, the one bad battery goes dead and the others
have to work rather hard to force current through it, reversing it.
Apparent pack voltage drops quickly, but comes back quickly to a slightly
lower than normal voltage when the load is removed.
BUT, you have two parallel strings, which changes everything. Assuming they
are directly connected, then when the one string goes down, it sucks current
from the good string. The good string is also left with the job of moving
the car. It sees more current than you know. You can only see the current
to the controller, but you are not set up to measure currents between the
packs. If there is any way to install a shunt in each string while you have
the pack down, do it. You can watch for imbalances by measuring the
differential current.
The second string may or may not have a bad battery. If it does not, it is
simply being pulled down quickly by trying to prop up the other string. The
"bad" string will stay at a slightly lower voltage than the "good" string
until the "stinker" comes up to a relatively normal voltage. Therefore the
"good" string is being drained of current up to a point, and this current
can incidentally cook the other batteries in the "bad" string by forcing
current through them. This would only be a concern when they are close to
fully charged. The charger may also overcharge the good batteries somewhat.
If there is a bad battery in the "good" string, it just shows up sooner, due
to having to pull the whole load alone. I'll bet if there is one, it isn't
as bad as the "stinker" in the other string, but it is getting pulled down
quickly.
Some have suggested connecting the strings to the controller with blocking
diodes, so that if one string goes down, then the other would not have the
double duty of moving the car and bringing the other string back up. On a
standard DC drive, this might work, BUT you have AC drive, which means your
regen would be blocked by them, so throw this idea out the window for your
particular setup.
The massive DC-DC discussed for use with ultracaps seems to be an answer,
albeit an unobtainable one at the moment. One on each string would take
good care of the batteries.
What you really need is a 52 AH battery that is exactly the size and shape
of 2 of the 26 ah hawkers put together. Then you could make 1 single
string.
I think the only practical solution for you, though, is probably your
monitoring/supplemental charging system. With your monitoring setup, you
could attach shunt regulators of some sort during charge, to make sure the
good ones don't get cooked, and apply your extra charge to ensure the bad
ones do get fully charged. The addition of something like Lee's balancer to
work doing driving would complete the system.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 8:46 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: What's happening in the pack.
>
> > Sounds right, but the weak one is saving 24 other modules and killing
> > the other string.
>
> Hm. Hooray I think :-( Fortunately I haven't been driving it more than
> 10 miles all winter, and only recently have been driving it to 15 (where
> it's dead as a tuna can).
>
> However what is happening in the pack when one battery dies early? Do
> the other batteries take the damage as well? I can't believe they are
> all going down to 10vpc, but what is going on in there which is causing
> a reported voltage of 10vpc? Is the resistance of the dead battery that
> high? What is limiting the current?
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:01 AM, 1sclunn [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> Jon " One of the cables on one of my batteries seems to be loose
and
> I have the bolt as tight as it will go "
> Me "I don't think that won't last long , you could try switching it
> with another cable, some of the post on the batteries are bigger
> than others
> I have had very good luck with the automotive clamp cables and have
> not had a post melt off with them in years , but under the right
> conditions it can be done. You can tighten the clamp bolt down
> but also check that the cable won't twist on the post, I have seen
> this , where the bolt seemed tight but I could twist the cable
> clamp on the post .
I'm sure you are aware of this, Steve, but just in case anyone else
following this thread isn't: the positive and negative
automotive-style posts are *different* diameters. You must use a
positive clamp on the positive post and a negative clamp on the
negative post or else you *will* end up with loose connections.
This difference is why when you sufy over to EVParts or another parts
supplier site, you will notice that they sell identical appearing
battery clamps as positive or negative.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: What's happening in the pack.
> > Sounds right, but the weak one is saving 24 other modules and killing
> > the other string.
>
> Hm. Hooray I think :-( Fortunately I haven't been driving it more than
> 10 miles all winter, and only recently have been driving it to 15 (where
> it's dead as a tuna can).
>
> However what is happening in the pack when one battery dies early? Do
> the other batteries take the damage as well? I can't believe they are
> all going down to 10vpc, but what is going on in there which is causing
> a reported voltage of 10vpc? Is the resistance of the dead battery that
> high? What is limiting the current?
> Hi Chris an' All;
A few comments on the bad battery game. In my post last weak, I mentioned
the first serious run with the warmer, no snow, weather. I had 3 bum
batteries in my collection, on a 120 volt Rabbit. Of course the bum cells
were spread over 3 batteries. Yur NEVER gunna get them all in one 6 volt
battery<g>! I sure found them very easily by touch, they were smokin' when I
got home. They were reversed, of course, acting like resisters, making the
rest of the pack work harder, under load, like 150-200 amps I need to climb
home. As far as I can see it doesn't hurt the good cells, other than making
them work harder to cover my distances. After I weeded out the bad ones the
survivers showed their graditude by giving me a nice 65-70 MPH down the
Turnpike@ 150-200 amps with about 5to8 volt sag, toward the end of the run.
On the first trip I was sagging 10-15 volts same trip. Remarcable
differance, as the remaining cells had to work much harder, hence the
drop.My theory.
The rest of the system, to comment on Seth's mention, I have a 9" ADC
rebuilt by the Good Folks at Warfield, so it COULD be considered a Warp 9"?
A Rapter or T Rex, depending on which is up and running. I have two in
stock, Never know, so I keep a spare.Never ran a Curtis, although I DO have
one in the old 87 Sentra I bought a few years ago. No progress on THAT one
much more than having my local Metal God rebuild the rotted out rear "Frame"
to structurally support my between the frame rail battery boxes I'm doing.
Oyther committments have stalled the project. Rising gas prices have giving
me more thought of putting it in family service, whynot TWO EV's in one
household?
CT comments this AM
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael --
I think the old Saab 96 would make an excellent electric. I used to have
one, plus a spare so that I could replace various parts as they fell off
;^]
It's a lightweight, unibody construction, so you will need to do some
research about where it's safe to cut and weld for battery boxes. The rear
trunk isn't huge, but when you take out the old V4 forklift engine that they
used, there ought to be plenty of space in the front engine compartment,
rear trunk, and under the rear seat to have a sizable battery pack.
It's the only car I've ever heard of that had a freewheeling mode that you
could select with a lever under the dash. If you got used to driving the 96
in freewheeling mode, then you won't really miss the lack of compression
braking in an EV, either.
Mine also had the optional "Flintstones propulsion mode" -- all you had to
do was remove the plywood that was put there to somewhat reduce the amount
of mud splashing up through the rust holes in the floorboard. A 96 in good
condition like you found ought to be fairly rare and valuable.
I have to agree that the Saab 96 has incomparable styling. Like a VW Beetle
on steroids. I miss my old 96. I guess I'm wildly biased in favor of your
proposed conversion. Sorry I don't have more specific suggestions, but best
of luck!
-- Will
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Jaross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: Saab 96 EV ?
OK, it's not too practical, but I REALLY like the old Saab 96. I used to
own one for a few years in Sweden. I have my hands on a local glider in
good shape and, although I know a newer car/pickup would be more practical
to convert, I'd like to at least hear someone from EV List warn me off. I'm
in the Bellingham, WA area. Who would I go see about adaptor plates for an
Advanced DC motor ? The rest of the electrical stuff seems to be available
from lots of sources. Anybody have a favorite EV shop in my area ? It
seems like a good idea to have someone local to get advice/parts from. Or a
favorite shop-by-mail place ? I'm willing to listen to any and all
opinions, regardless how WILDLY BIASED ! Thanks, Michael
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> The Traction pack is directly connected to the inverter power stage
> which is directly connected to the motor winding.
>
> But all of above is isolated from everything else including
> the motor case. You WILL get shock if you touch the battery
> and the motor winding terminal, but it is impossible since
> the motor terminals are sealed under cover on the motor side
> as well as on the inverter side. You can safely touch any
> battery pack end and the chassis. The drive system is connected
> to the chassy through I think 500k to 1M bleeding resistor
> preventing the pack/power stage/motor winding network
> from floating far away from the ground. It is considered
> isolated for shock preventing purposes.
Victor, have you looked at the voltage between any of these terminals
and chassis ground while the motor is operating? I would expect the DC
voltage is very low (and this is the only voltage when the system is
off). But the AC voltage during operation could be substantial, because
the inverter is applying sharp rise/fall time waveforms to the motor.
This AC voltage is the problem that ACP addressed by insulating the case
of the motor from ground. If they didn't, the large AC voltages and the
large capacitance from motor winding to motor case caused large AC
ground currents. This ground current didn't matter during normal
driving. But, since they use their inverter and motor while CHARGING,
this capacitive ground current would trip GFCIs.
> The point is, if you block access to the battery terminals,
> you can touch ANYTHING in my EV with both hands, it is fine.
> Actually there is nothing to touch - no exposed bars or motor
> terminals bolts.
Do you know if the Siemens system is DOUBLE-insulated, to meet the UL
standards? I'm sure it hasn't been tested by UL, but if Siemens was
familiar with the UL standards, they might have designed it so it would
be possible to meet them without a major redesign.
The UL standards basically say the device needs to withstand a "hipot"
(High Potential) test of 1000 vac + 2 times the AC operating voltage
between any terminal and ground for 1 minute, with a leakage current of
less than 5 milliamps.
The insulation on magnet wire ("varnish" or its many equivalents) is
only good for about 40 volts, so UL does not count it; they pretend that
the wire is uninsulated. So, if you take apart a normal UL-listed AC
motor, you will find one thick layer of insulation between the windings
and the motor frame. Typically, this insulation will be tape wound
around the bundle of windings, or sheets of insulating board slid into
the slots between the wire and the laminations. This insulation needs to
be thick enough and strong enough to pass the hipot test.
UL further requires DOUBLE insulation for products that can operate
without a grounded case, or when the user can touch the motor without
tools. Double-insulated means there are TWO completely separate
insulation systems, EACH of which can pass hipot all by itself. The idea
is to provide a backup system, so failure of one will not electrocute
someone.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> What I need now is a device that can really load test batteries.
> I need something that can pull a 30amp load from a 12 volt battery
> for up to 60 minutes.
Quite a while ago I posted a device I use. It is a 120vac heater case,
with the guts removed. Inside is a 12v muffin fan, Rudman Mk2 Regulator,
12v 40a relay, and an aluminum heatsink with a couple dozen surplus
power resistors bolted to it. None of the parts are critical; you can
use whatever you can find.
The Rudman regulator is modified by adding a second pot so you can set
the hysteresis (difference between its turn-on and turn-off voltages. I
adjusted the pots to turn on at 15v, and turn off at 10.5v. I also added
a couple pushbuttons to force it "on" or "off" when desired.
Connect the 12v relay coil to the "external load" terminals of the
regulator. Connect your load resistors thru the N.O. contacts of the
relay. I used the heater's off/fan/low/med/high switch to select how
many of my load resistors were connected, giving 4a to 25a loads.
I also brought the relay's N.C. contact out for connection to a charger.
So, the heater has 3 big studs on the back; +12v to battery, +12v to
charger, and COMMON (to -12v of battery and charger).
In operation, you connect a battery, set the load current, and push the
"on" button. The Rudman regulator thinks you have hit its upper limit
and turns on the loads and fan. When the voltage falls to 10.5v, the
Rudman regulator turns the relay and loads off. This also closes the
N.C. contact of the relay, connecting the battery to the external
charger. It will charge until either the charger shuts off, or the
battery reaches 15v.
If the battery reaches 15v, the Rudman regulator turns on again, and the
cycle repeats. Thus it can work as an automatic battery cycler.
If you wire a battery-operated analog clock to the load, you can set it
to "12:00" when you start a discharge test. When you come back later,
the time will tell you how long it ran until 10.5v. (i.e. "1:45" is 1.45
hours).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> Amorphous PV sucks rocks in a lot of ways...
I agree. They are cheaper, but deliver less energy per square foot and
have a shorter life expectancy. You get what you pay for.
As an unrelated issue, you can optimize a solar cell for good
performance in either low (room light) or high (sunlight) conditions.
For low-light, you want extremely thin layers. But this makes cell
resistance high. So low-light cells have poor high-current performance,
and so poor sunlight performance. The thin layers are also more easily
damaged by sunlight over time.
The opposite is true for thick layers. Lower resistance, better
high-current performance, longer life in direct sun. But the thick
layers block some of the light, so they work worse in low-light
conditions.
As it turns out, most crystalline and polycrystalline cells are built
with thick layers for sunlight operation. And most cheap amorphous cells
are built with thin layers for low-light conditions (like pocket
calculators). It's not really the technology itself; it's the way they
chose to optimize it.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> Ok, I got the relays here for my super-monitoring tool...
Just out of curiosity; what kind? My concern is whether they really can
withstand the high voltages that might be present.
> My plan now is to wire small resistors across the NO points on
> the relay directly, then have wires going off to the poles of
> the battery (so two batteries can be monitored with one relay)
> and two wires going off to the sensor lines.
Ok. What is your current schematic?
Be sure to use resistors rated for 500v max. That usually means 1/2 watt
size. They should also be 'flameproof' -- metal oxide on a ceramic tube,
not carbon!
> Question is what kind of really small fuse can I put in here?
Try the Littelfuse EBF series or Buss PC-Tron series. Both are rated to
safely break 350vdc, and are very small (rectangular package about 3/8"
square and 1/8" thick, with wire leads).
> What kind of wire should I be using (handle a 5 amp load, the
> lighter the better)
The wire itself can carry a tremendous current before it melts. It is
the insulation that determines a wire's current rating.
If you want particularly small wire, use teflon-insulated wire. Teflon
can be very thin and still withstand high voltage, and can stand much
higher temperatures. But, be very careful not to pinch or nick it --
teflon is quite soft.
There is a hazard with a system like this that may not be obvious.
Suppose a fault occurs, such as a relay opening while charging some
battery at 5 amps. The contacts arc. There is enough voltage supplied
from the other end of the pack by some leakage current path so the arc
continues. A fuse won't blow, because the current is too low. But 390v
at even 10ma is 3.9 watts; enough to completely destroy the relay. The
charred remains of the relay plastics continue to carry the current,
getting hotter and hotter until it starts to burn. The fire can melt
more wiring nearby, causing more leakage currents and more heating. You
can get a runaway condition that proceeds very far before the current
finally blows a fuse. The fire will then either go out (if all the
materials are "self extinguishing), or it can continue growing until it
runs out of fuel!
You see this sort of failure on PC boards that have high voltages on
them. All the parts and the board are nominally 'fire retardant' or
'flameproof' so they won't burn under normal circumstance. But some
small part fails and overheats; it carbonizes the board to create new
leakage current paths. The high voltage provides enough current thru
these leakage paths to create further heating. This provides a heat
source to sustain a fire even in materials that wouldn't normally burn.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
T.
>
> I'm sure you are aware of this, Steve, but just in case anyone else
> following this thread isn't: the positive and negative
> automotive-style posts are *different* diameters. You must use a
> positive clamp on the positive post and a negative clamp on the
> negative post or else you *will* end up with loose connections.
>
Yes but I've seen a lot of "play " in the size of both cable clamp holes and
post , get a cable where the ,say neg hole is a little big and a battery
where the neg post is a little small and even though you got it all set up
right when you tighten the bolt that clamps the cable clamp tight , it seems
tight but all that has happened is the two sides of the clamp have come
together but there's no real bite on the post. Most of the time when I'm
putting in a new pack I'll find a few that I'm just not happy with , I
switch them with one's that seems to have the clamp spread wider than most
and everything evens out ,
steve clunn
> This difference is why when you sufy over to EVParts or another parts
> supplier site, you will notice that they sell identical appearing
> battery clamps as positive or negative.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I think I have an idea for a discharger:
I have a pair of APC 600 watt UPS units that are just sitting around. I
will take out the batteries, and wire in a solution that will allow me
to pull power from external cables (6 feet long).
The UPS can charge the battery, and discharge it. I'll use N number of
light bulbs as the load, and use an ammeter to make sure it's drawing a
nice 30 amp draw. Then let it go with a mechanical 110 volt clock as a
timer. When it hits 10.66 the UPS shuts down and the test is over and
the clock tells the run time.
Bonus: I can re-charge the battery using 110 :-) I assume that light
bulbs have a power factor of 1.00, correct?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um... isn't oil flammable? You could parallel up a few old sealed beam
headlights (cheap from wrecking yard) to get the load you want.
Get a bunch and do multiple batteries at the same time.
David Chapman wrote:
Chris, how bout sticking the load in a bucket of water? I have also toyed
with the idea of putting some of my loads into a (new from HD) paint can
and
filling with mineral oil. Small muffin fan might keep your load aircooled.
David Chapman.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 7:39 PM
Subject: Battery discharge tester needed
> Ok, this time when I drop the pack I want to weed out *all* of the
> oddball batteries. After driving it tonight I have a pretty good idea
> what happened (described in another email)
>
> What I need now is a device that can really load test batteries. yes, I
> have my little load-tester, but after 30 seconds (it's a 30 amp load) it
> gets all nice and cherry red. Not going to do the job.
>
> I need something that can pull a 30amp load from a 12 volt battery for
> up to 60 minutes. My plan is to run the batteries down to zero, then
> time how long it takes for this to happen. "Zero" in this case is 10.66
> volts, the bottom for the Hawker Genesis family.
>
> Any suggestions on what to build? Something that I can use to test
> multiple batteries would be optimal...
>
> Thanks!
> Chris
>
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your system appears to be an excellent example of what can be done.
(now if we could just get the rest of Americans to see it that way)
Your relatively short commute and the ability to charge at work helps alot.
Would be substantially different with a 40 mile commute and no at-work
charging.
Richard Kelly wrote:
Roy LeMeur wrote:
>Feeding a daily commuter EV and your residence _and_ having it all
ballance >out at the end of the year would take a whole lotta PV.
Don't bet on it.
All depends on the specific circumstances (house and EV use). Check out
these statistics at our house...
Average home electrical usage: 10kWh/day (no air conditioner, CFL lighting
everywhere)
Average EV electrical usage: 5 kWh/day (22 mile commute/day with top up at
work)
Total usage: 15 kWh/day
We have a 19-panel PV array which was sized around a Sunny Boy 2.5kW
inverter. I think this qualifies as a small system. In theory it should
produce an average of 15 kWh/day (6 hours average sun * 2.5 kW). In
practice, we fired it up last winter and it started producing 5 kWh/day.
Now, in April, it's already up to 15. What will it be in summer? I don't
know. But real-world performance seems to be right on-par with
theoretical.
Total PV supply: 15 kWh/day
This small system should cover ALL my electricity. And we don't live like
hermits in a cave, either. We have two kids, TVs, computers, an aquarium,
etc.. Even an electric lawn mower. ;-)
Richard
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/474.html
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2
months!
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Jaross wrote:
OK, it's not too practical, but I REALLY like the old Saab 96. I used to
own one for a few years in Sweden. I have my hands on a local glider in
good shape and, although I know a newer car/pickup would be more practical
to convert, I'd like to at least hear someone from EV List warn me off.
I'm
in the Bellingham, WA area. Who would I go see about adaptor plates for an
Advanced DC motor ? The rest of the electrical stuff seems to be available
from lots of sources. Anybody have a favorite EV shop in my area ? It
seems like a good idea to have someone local to get advice/parts from. Or
a
favorite shop-by-mail place ? I'm willing to listen to any and all
opinions, regardless how WILDLY BIASED ! Thanks, Michael
EV Parts is in Port Townsend. Roderick usually has a line on someone to
fabricate adaptors for him. www.evparts.com
It is important to convert a car you really like, (helps if you don't mind
doing restoration at the same time)
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
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--- Begin Message ---
Derrick Brashear wrote:
> On Apr 6, 2004, at 4:11 PM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Here, do it yourself...
> > http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/mv_forms/mv-426B.pdf
>
> The point is, I don't want to ;-)
>
> > otherwise, I've read good reviews about titles unlimited,
> but have no
> > personal experience with them. www.titlesunlimitedinc.com
>
> they appear they'd be helpful for title recovery but i need a
> "modified" title because it's converted, they don't seem to deal with
> those.
Hi Derrick,
PA is very strange in that you don't go to the DMV for titling or
registration. You go to one of hundreds of privately-owned businesses
that handles all that for you. (They actually drive to Harrisburg daily
to process this stuff.)
It varies of course, but some of these places are very knowledgeable
about weird stuff like salvaged vehicles, conversions, etc. They can be
much more responsive than your typical DMV bureaucrat. Or not. You
have to find one that knows what they're doing. When you find one, take
all your business there.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Ok, I think I have an idea for a discharger:
> I have a pair of APC 600 watt UPS units that are just sitting around.
> I will take out the batteries, and wire in a solution that will allow
> me to pull power from external cables (6 feet long).
That should work. However, assume that the battery + and - leads are
*HOT* and not isolated from the AC powerline!
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Brian;
Quite simply, an EV is not for you. At least not in this application.
Ev's are a niche vehicle, that niche is as a short range daily commute vehicle, but
your daily commute is too far outside the range of a practically affordable EV.
You should invest your money into a high mpg car like the Insight or Civic hybrids.
There are other high MPG cars available but the hybrids offer substantial tax
incentives too.
If you still want an EV, and I hope you do. Perhaps you could use it to do around town
errands or weekend duty. But, for your commute an EV won't work, you will put alot of
money into it and then end up needing to replace you battery pack in a year or less
because of the depth of discharge needed to do your commute.
UNLESS: (but you've already said otherwise) you could afford Li-Ion batteries. My
rough calculations put a set of Li-Ions, if they have the shelf life, at about a
million miles per pack, and if you get a million miles then their costpermile would be
less than flooded lead acid, currently the cheapest battery technology. BUT, we don't
know if the Li-Ions will last that long, they haven't been around long enough to tell.
These batteries are kind of weird they may die from calendar life before they die from
cycle life, we'll see.
Stay Charged!
Hump
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Brian Staffanson
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 1:25 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: battery power and range
>
>
> I once heard that for every15 - 20 lbs of lead to give one mile of
> range. Is this a generalization for all batteries? Or do some
> batteries have better densities than that? I wonder because I might be
> commuting a little longer than I have planned for work, this summer,
> with an internship about a hour away, or about 50 - 60 miles, through a
> canyon with some ups and downs. Initially I was planning on using 108v
> of orbital 34xcd. If this the power density is correct, I would
> probably need 1200 lbs of batteries, being about 30 batteries, if I
> remember correctly that the orbitals weigh 40 lbs. This would be
> assuming that I can charge my batteries at work, which I don't know yet,
> because I would need to have the same power coming back home.
>
> Another question, in similar vein, I was thinking which type of setup
> would be best for a little more distance. I was initially thinking that
> I wanted to double the number of batteries (before realyzing some things
> that come into play, which will be mentioned later), and wanted to know
> which would be better for more range: having one string of 216V or two
> strings of 108V? I really don't have the option anymore of just one
> string at 216V, as the motor I am planning on using is a Presolite 4001,
> and I have heard that the voltage shouldn't exceed 156V, or arcing is a
> problem. So I am down to having to parallel the batteries. So if I do
> parallel, is the best setup having the parallel strings being the same
> type of battery as the first string? Or would it be better for range,
> to get the heavier 6V batteries? All this is assuming that my budget
> isn't as limited as it is, and that I have unlimited space, which I
> don't really have ( I am converting a 1974 VW bug). But I still want to
> know what any of you have to say about anything I have mentioned.
>
> One last thing is that I still want to be able to speed up the hills in
> the canyon, going the same speed as the traffic is, usually 65, but
> still being able to get to work. I have a curtis 1231, 500A
> controller. So I don't know if that is possible. But I only have so
> much money.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
The motor controllers are never isolated.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Siemens and MES-DEA AC inverters are all isolated. Traction pack
is floating vs chassis.
Wrong context, Victor. You are thinking about the controller being
isolated from ground. Pretty much *all* controllers do this.
My misunderstanding, all clear now. I thought of
motor+controller+battery from the chassy, not from each other.
The topic drifted away so I lost original thought which started
with Rich's chargers followed by David's comment. I think it is
important:
If you connect non-iso charger or instrumentation gadget
to the pack (which is almost always permanent connection),
the whole system, i.e. charger, battery pack, controller and
motor become non-isolated from the chassy when the
mains plugged in. And if this charger has one leg (negative)
also connected to the chassy, the whole system becomes
non-isolated at all times, not only on charge (when neutral
or cold mains leg is connected to the chassy).
I know PFCs have neg output directly connected to the mains
bridge but don't remember if they have negative output grounded
to the case as well. Rich can comment on this.
So suddenly it becomes dangerous to touch motor terminal
only because one adds unrelated [to the drive system] component.
This, of course applies to any system, AC or DC.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Chris Tromley wrote:
> PA is very strange in that you don't go to the DMV for titling or
> registration. You go to one of hundreds of privately-owned businesses
> that handles all that for you. (They actually drive to Harrisburg daily
> to process this stuff.)
Except they don't handle *all* of it. For an MV-426B you have to involve a
state inspection mechanic. Those shops don't keep one on staff they can
send to my house. And I can't legally drive the car to one so i'd have to
pay to have it towed there.
> It varies of course, but some of these places are very knowledgeable
> about weird stuff like salvaged vehicles, conversions, etc. They can be
> much more responsive than your typical DMV bureaucrat. Or not. You
> have to find one that knows what they're doing. When you find one, take
> all your business there.
Well, yes, and even if I solved the mechanic problem, then I'd have to
find such a shop.
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--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> I bought a 10/3 extension cord for my MIG welder with lighted LED in
> the end for $50 for 50 feet. Or you can make your own of 10/3 or 8/3
>
> Seth
> On Apr 6, 2004, at 11:48 PM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > Since the landlord removed the outside electrical plug when he
> > remodeled our apartment complex a couple summers ago, I'm in search of
> > an alternative way to charge (without putting an extension cord out
> > and under the front door). I've found a route for an extension cord
> > (through the dryer exhaust hole) that will run along the side of the
> > building and right to where I park. I'll be using a PFC-20, and I'm a
> > little worried that it will draw more current than the extension cord
> > is rated for. The cable is UL listed, 14/3 is written on the cord.
> > Most extension cords this size are rated at 15 amps. Do I need to be
> > worried?
> >
> > I imagine others have had to deal with this same problem. I'd be
> > interested to hear the solutions.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ryan
> >
> > --
> > Visit http://www.evsource.com for rebates on Zillas during the month
> > of April!
> >
GET THE 10-3 cord!!!!
Even the PFC20 will draw 24.5 amps if you have the right output
voltages.
I just did a 12.5 mile tripple charge cycle run, Sucked a 1/2 Kw at
Coastal Coffee, and sucked 1.5 Kw at Bird lectric, and I just stufffed
it full here on the power bench, with PFC#....er it will be #16..
In the burley world of getting as much watts as you can in the shortest
time.... The Red Head needed a Quad shot of Esppresso.... a #12 cord and
10 amps of 170 is not much and it did heat the cord up. Thats about 15
amps of 120 Grid, and my cords are not whimps. I Lust for a 20 Ft #10 or
#8 with 120 normal prongs on it. On 120 Every watt should get into the
Lead, and nothing into the Feed cords!!
Also remeber you CAN TURN IT DOWN!!! I was doing 1800 watts from 120
volt 15 amp feeds, you have to gage the amps into the Ev, and what you
can draw from the source. I have a limit of 10 amp from a 15 amp
circuit, that's 10 amp of 170 DC, so you are sucking over 2Kw from the
grid source. That's darn near the trip limits of the 15 amp circuit.
On my not so burly #12 cord I limit myself to 22.5 amps of charge from
a 20 amp 240 line, the cords get hot... but the time that 13 Yts will
suck 22.5 amps is about as long as you want to punish the cord. I have a
20 amp 240 volt feed Cheater cord that morphs 240 20 amp prongs to 120
volt 15 amp prongs. The PFC30 that's in my Goldie( PFC30 #1) has a 20
amp 120 plug and I use the cheater cord to get 240 to it. I cant run the
PFC30 wide open even with 20 amps of 240. The charger will make 36 amps
of 170 if you can feed it with 30 amps of 240 grid. I don't have a 30
amp cord..... But I do have a 50 amp cord that needs to be put back
together from Gone poastal Racing at Pacific Raceways... we did some cut
and chopping to get things charged faster. So... I guess I will a 50 amp
to 30 amp cheater cord made to get more amps to Goldie. But the 20 amp
240 feed get her charged in about 30 minutes anyways.
Also the from end of Goldie.... the hood end has a 175 amp Anderson for
massive charging from off board PFC50s... 10 minute cycles have been
recorded... Full about as fast as you dare. The PFC50 doesn't get the
fans spooled all the way up before the amps are tapering!! This is Race
mode battery heating!!
Rod...Who has the 15Kw genset for Bremerton this weekend???? 2400 watts
just ain't gonna do it for us!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
>
> The insulation on magnet wire ("varnish" or its many equivalents) is
> only good for about 40 volts, so UL does not count it; they pretend that
> the wire is uninsulated. So, if you take apart a normal UL-listed AC
> motor, you will find one thick layer of insulation between the windings
> and the motor frame. Typically, this insulation will be tape wound
> around the bundle of windings, or sheets of insulating board slid into
> the slots between the wire and the laminations. This insulation needs to
> be thick enough and strong enough to pass the hipot test.
Lee I have a problem with this 40 volts number.
The Specs I have for Phelps Dodge Armored Poly-thermaleze 2000 APTZ
is good for 20,000 hours of 217C work. 11Kv of insulation and 7Kv at 200
C.
or 5x10 ^13 ohms, and 9.2 x10 ^10 ohms at 200C.
The bare wire has this spec, and it's one step down from the "inverter
Driven motor" class Wire.
The Thermaleze Qs(TZ-QS) Quantum Shield magnet wire for inverter driven
motors... is even better stuff. I don't have the spec card on it. But it
is the best stuff in the books.
I expect that Siemans has this grade or better copper wire. Then it's in
Nomex paper slots, then it's dipped in Varnish. Ranbar Coil varnish. I
don't have this spec sheet, but it's the good stuff, Baked at 375 F for
30 minutes, then hi potted.
So by the time you get a real motor you have a couple dozzen of Kv of
insulation from the Case, and Stator steel to the actual copper.
I use this stuff in the Boost inductors and Pi filter torroids in the
PFC chargers.
These are darn near the best materials available to the industry.
If UL says this is 40 volt iso, they have thier heads in a large bucket
of Silicon dioxide. I rather think the above materials rates for the
double insulated Specs. The old black wire varnish is most likely what
you are refering to. NOT what the largest electrical power train
producer in Europe would even think about using in EV motor drives.
I just bought 80 lbs of #10 wire for $250, up from $187 6 months ago.
AvDC motors have this varnish running out of the Cases after the field
coils are installed. I have to dip and bake the new field coils that
Went into the old GE 9 that came out of the GP front drive. My wife
just got a new Maytag Genii oven I get the old stove for Baking motors
and coils....
The paper in the motor slots is Nomex. 0.010 inch stuff is good for
Class R(220C) work and good for 8000 Volts of insulation. I use this
stuff to keep close wires from abrading, and for blast deflectors, and
to keep the case from shorting to the PCB boards should some fool
actually step on a charger while it's in operation.
I like using THE Good Stuff, some day the lawyers will too.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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