EV Digest 3458
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Modified Rudman Regs (long) - heat recovery
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EV's and kids (was Re: 2 8inch vs 1 9" ot)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New Batteries - Which Ones Are BEST?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Question on cold low battery
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Decisions, Decisions
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Free donor - Porsche 924 in Snohomish, WA - now with motor!
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Decisions, Decisions
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Free donor - Porsche 924 in Snohomish, WA - now with motor!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Modified Rudman Regs - heat recovery
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Nedra Drags Video
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Decisions, Decisions
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Simple regulator question
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Electric Assist Bikes - Ontario
by "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV history site
by "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery telemetry thought, take one.
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Simple regulator question
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Simple regulator question
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV's and kids (was Re: 2 8inch vs 1 9" ot)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Beefing up contactors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Modified Rudman Regs (long) - heat recovery
> I'll put this here, at the start of this message, hopefully to get some
> additional responses: With a 20A charge rate how much self-heating are the
> batteries (Orbital Bluetops) likely to get?
Not much unless overcharged.
> If the batteries are going to heat to close to or above the temperature
> control threshold, then there will be no point in trying to recover the
> energy, and so I'd be wasting time, effort and money putting in a heat
> recovery system that would be of no use. That is the main thing that I am
> trying to determine at this time. The battery box will be insulated,
> Winters are not much below freezing (going back above every day) and
> heating will be on every night. Is it worth the effort?
They run pretty cold until they reach full charge.
> U1D is the temperature comparator, with the sensor moved to the battery
> heating plate and the range altered to reflect the 30 Celcius or so
heating
> setpoint.
I see.
> R16 and Q2 would be no longer needed (since there would no longer
> be any heat generated on the PCB), so would be left off the PCB.
Correct.
> Since U1
> is 'active' all of the time, my daugter PCB has a second output for
battery
> heating that is controlled from a charger completed signal (input) and
> heating required (output of U1D), to enable the output for 'mains' powered
> heating of the battery plate (this will be so regardless of wether I
> recover the 200 to 400 Watts of bypass energy).
That was the clue I was missing.
> >The gates of the two transistors are tied together by a trace on the PCB.
> >You will need to that trace to separate them.
>
> Simple: put Q1 on the component side of the PCB, 'face' up, which puts its
> gate into the track that went to R11/R13. The second off-board resistor
> goes in place of D2, connecting where it was, the remaining pin is not
> inserted into the PCB, but gets a link of wire to what was the neg end of
> R13. So the gate end of R9 is used to drive Q3, and the connection that
was
> R11/R13 join becomes the drive to Q1 (R11 gets put into the unused holes
of
> R34, C3 gets left off).
R3, R23, R13 and R11 are not needed for off board loads. Just connect U1C to
Ref 0.7.
> >The regulating signal comes off U1 pin 7. This point does not go down
during
> >thermal cutout.
> >
> >If you want the regulating signal to be disabled during an overtemp
> >situation, then you need to get it from (either end of) R9.
>
> I don't need to disable it on overtemp, but to divert it. So I would take
> the output of U1C (from one pad where R9 would be not installed) and AND
it
> with heat not overtemp to drive the FET for the resistor on the heating
> plate (back in the other end pad of R9, resistor on the daughter PCB), or
> when the plate goes overtemp inversion of the temp signal AND the
> regulating signal to the other FET (R11/R13 pads) for waste heat.
Since you are not using overtemp cutout therefore what you are doing makes
perfect sense.
> >You will need to change R20 to adjust the temperature setpoint. The
cutout
> >temperature is about 85C (185F) as the circuit is designed.
>
> Yes, that is understood. Also to prevent the setpoint moving too much with
> the battery voltage, R20 could be placed so that instead of picking up
> alongside R7 it picks up the reference off the end of R14. It'd be untidy
> (and wouldn't be able to go through the hole) but would work.
This is true as long as the current through the thermistor part of the
bridge does not pull D5 out of regulation. You may need to reduce R10 to
keep D5 operating properly.
> > > The daughter PCBs will also have optically isolated repeating of the
> > > undervoltage and regulating LEDs, plus the status of the heating.
> >
> >The regbus interface board does all this. The connections are on J17 to
> >drive these optocouplers.
>
> But the undervoltage signal is from before the latch, and if someone has
> been abusing my EV I want to know!
The red LED on the board is the tattletail inside the battery box. The user
will only see the momentary undervoltage on the regbus. I expected this
signal to be used to sound a buzzer to remind the user to lift off the
throttle to avoid damage to the batteries. I thought it would need too many
wires to take all the red LED signals out the regbus to have individual
indicators in the driver compartment.
> Also the regulating signal is not
> available (I want in part to control the charger from the regulating
> signals). These are some of the reasons that I decided to make my own
> interface.
It makes perfect sense.
> > > The only catch that I can see is that if the batteries are cold, then
as
> > > soon as the bypassing starts, the bottom of the cells are at a
different
> > > temperature to the top of the cells (Orbital Bluetops) and so will end
up
> > > at a different SOC. So it may be better to inhibit heating during
charging
> > > and use the temperature comparator as described but to only to switch
the
> > > mains heating (this would save a lot of work that may be
> >counter-productive).
> >
> >The hot part of the battery will charge first because it has the lower
> >gassing voltage. By the time the regs fire, the battery will be quite
full.
> >The temperature compensation will not be fooled enough to matter.
>
> I wasn't thinking of the temperature compensation, I was thinking that the
> cells may become overcharged at the bottom, possibly damaging the cells
and
> shortening their life?
I doubt that the thermal gradient will be so extreme that this would be a
concern with a single layer of batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK,
Now I've got to tell a John Wayland story. Way back when, after I first
purchased my motor and controller for my motorcycle, John came over to show
me how to wire it all up. We brought the motor, controller, and a couple of
Hawker batteries right in on my wifes nice white kitchen counter. I had
brought John over to show me how to do it all since it was my first time,
but he immediately saw the interest my kids had in what was happening and
spent more time talking with them and showing them how things work than with
me. Of course I still got what I needed out of the exchange, but the thing
that I remember most about that evening was how well John engaged my kids.
John is practically an empty nester and my 4 at the time ran from 11 to 3
years of age, so it was the first time I saw him interact with kids their
age. He effortlessly explained things at a level that was easy for them to
understand and in a manner that held their interest. It was great having
another adult come into my home and interact with my children in such a
meaningful manner.
For those of you who only know John for his passionate posts on this list
consider this a little glimpse of him from one lister who is fortunate
enough to live close to him.
Of course anyone who spends any time on this list knows that there are many
that are involving kids of all ages in their EV projects, and Steve's point
is a good one. It is a great way to spend meaningful time together.
damon
My grand son came out back to see what I was doing , and I got him turning
some bolts, I was thinking about a lesson I learned when his dad was a kid
and we were building a go cart. That is that its not very important to "get
the job done or how it looks , but what is important is that the kid gets
to
do it and not stand around watching a grown up do all the work. So I
handed
him bolts and wrenches and we had a good time putting a few bolts in , Then
we went and climbed a tree , So what's this got to do with EV's ? An EV
project is a great opportunity to get together with your kids , or other
people and build something , do something together, and learn while doing
it.
_________________________________________________________________
Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2
months!
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to evaluate how fast and how far you want to go.
The same weight in lead will store the same amount of energy. How you use
the energy determines which battery to buy.
The 12 Volt AGMs cost more per pound, make more amps, are lower maintenance
and require a better regulated charger.
The 6 and 8 Volt flooded cost less per pound than AGMs, make less amps, are
higher maintenance and survive better with unregulated chargers.
If you drive fast (>~200 amps), hate to wash the batteries, hate to fill the
batteries and don't mind the extra cost, buy the performance oriented AGMs.
If you drive slow (<~200 amps), don't mind washing batteries, don't mind
filling batteries and are cost conscious, buy the economy oriented flooded
batteries.
If you don't fall neatly into either category, you will need to choose one.
If you don't change the motor and controller, the car will feel quite a bit
slower at a lower pack Voltage.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ganapoler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:33 PM
Subject: New Batteries - Which Ones Are BEST?
> I'm getting ready to replace my battery pack...I currently have 8 12v
> batteries. I have an Advanced DC 9" motor in VW Rabbit. I don't commute
> very long distances (7.5 miles each way) so my questions are as follows:
>
> Is it better to maintain the 96 volt system with 12v batteries or go to 64
> volt system with 8v batteries? I keep hearing the lower the voltage, even
6
> volt batteries, will give greater distances per charge and last longer
than
> 12 volt but you need more of them and gain a substantial amount of weight
> and cost to do so.
>
> Is there a good maintenance free battery around that is reasonably priced?
> Maybe a better question would be what is the best battery for this
> application?
>
> Also the battery boxes and racks are configured for 6.75" X 13.5"
> Batteries....
>
> Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rock it North<>South and then East<>West to break it loose before lifting.
If you just pull upward without breaking it loose, the adhesion might be
more than the lifting points can handle. If you pull too hard, you can break
something on you, your equipment or the battery itself.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derrick J Brashear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Marvin Campbell wrote:
>
> > Hey Derrick:
> >
> > Pull that battery and see if it's wet underneath. If so, dry it out
well.
> > Often this is enough to correct the ground fault.
>
> After I sent the mails that I sent this morning I did go down and look at
> it. I can't lift it out; There are (old) deposits around the bottom of the
> battery and it's basically glued itself into the rack. I'm going to need
> to try again tomorrow to get it out.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fully discharged voltage needs to be CURRENT compensated, not
temperature compensated. Use the same end voltage regardless of temperature.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "EV'r up LATE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: Question on cold low battery
> Hi,
> I'm guessing the standard for a warm battery fully discharged is when it
> hits 10.5V
> Is this point lower when the battery is cold, like 9.5V?
> I'm thinking along the lines for sensing battery temperature (more like
> case temperature)
> Or is just 10.5V hot or cold sufficient?
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, the choices we face in life... I'm thinking of buying a 2000 Honda
Insight for $8K with the idea of converting it to a straight electric in
another three years or so (three years since buying the Honda would wipe
out my EV fund), but I have to weigh that against keeping my cash and
converting my current ride (2000 Hyundai Accent) to an EV next year.
I have a 35-mile commute, but I've decided that 50 miles is my minimum
tolerable range so that I'm not shackled to a sole-route vehicle and so
that I don't have to pitch the batteries the instant they start to fade.
The Hyundai conversion could handle that (barely with Orbitals, and I'd
have to charge at work to avoid beating them to death in a year; Evercels
would do the job comfortably), but the Honda wouldn't be able to carry as
much battery weight (GVWR on the Hyundai is #3300) and the aero advantage
and lighter tare might not be enough to compensate for that.
Another concern is that 8K is a hell of a lot of money to sink into a
glider (since there's no resale market for the Insight parts I'd be
removing) and there are no aftermarket springs, brakes, etc. for the
Insight, whereas you can get all that stuff for the Hyundai (and you
don't have to pay the gold-pressed latinum prices that the Honda stuff
would cost). And I'm sorry to have to say this, but the Insight is one
butt-ugly car behind the doors. I don't know if I could respect myself
knowing how much I paid to look at the back end of that car every day.
At this point, I'm halfway inclined to stick with my original idea and
let the Insight pass on by. Anyone want to try and talk me into buying
it anyway?
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Still have this vehicle available - and have a real desire to let it
find a new home so the newest project of mine can fill the parking spot.
So..... If you want it, this car comes with a motor. Now.... Don't get
REAL excited.... It's a forklift motor, about 12 inches, a real torque
monster. Weighs a hefty 253 pounds, and used to power a Mazda truck at
120 volts. It's my way of sweetening the deal. (And yes, that IS a
firetruck in the picture behind my gate.... But I'm working to convert
it to run on bio-diesel so it won't smoke so much......
=============================================================
No.... you did not imagine it. I'm giving away a Porsche 924! Hopefully
to someone who wants to make an EV out of it. Of course, it is an older
one, a 1977 model, and it is not only FREE of price - it is free of a
motor, too! It is even free of some carpet, exhaust pipe, radiator, and
miscellaneous other stuff.
Here is the story. This Porsche was going to be restored. The motor was
sent out to be rebuilt, and the deal fell through. Fast forward about 10
years where the car sat in a backyard collecting moss. Now comes me. I
like electric vehicles. I sold my electric pickup truck, kept the
electric motor and controller and some other goodies, and planned on
putting them into this nifty sports car body. But I'm impatient, and
don't have enough time to do a total "from the ground up" conversion
properly. So I've decided to buy an already converted car to restore,
and get rid of this one for what I paid for it. Nothing! Note: Married
men who have too many cars "in progress" can have their lives made
uncomfortable.... So this car goes before the next one arrives, capisch?
The bad stuff. No motor. No keys. Dirty, ripped seats, broken lock on
steering wheel, dragging brakes, and neglect of over a decade being a
home for wasps and weeds.
The good stuff. The tranny is still there, as is the power transfer
shaft, bell housing, and some clutch parts. All the glass is intact. The
doors open and shut with still satisfying easy "thunk". The seats are
the nice Recaro seats.... put a cover on them. The lights are not
attached, but all the parts appear to be there. There is even a few
boxes of little bits and screws and stuff. 5 wheels - and they hold air.
The brakes work.... but are sticking (probably need to remove and clean
some rust off the caliper or something. And.... the person who I got it
from did not have a title so he arranged to have it declared salvage -
because it obviously did not work. So you can have that paperwork, and
when you put some kind of motor into it again, you will be able to get
it inspected and titled. (Or if you are a porsche nut, use this one for
donor parts to keep another one looking good for a few more years).
I would ask you for money, but I just don't think it would be fair. I
got it for free, and my "car-ma" might be harmed if I took this as an
opportunity to profit. If you have a car trailer, I might ask for help
moving another car in the future from Seattle to Snohomish.
Best contact is via email - and my wife would love for this to leave the
driveway this month. I would love it if somebody would actually do
something with this car - it seems a shame to let it go to waste.
Thanks -
http://www.kevin-coughlin.com/cars/porsche/index.html
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "James D Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> At this point, I'm halfway inclined to stick with my original idea and
> let the Insight pass on by. Anyone want to try and talk me into buying
> it anyway?
8 k into the Hyundai would make a nice car ,
>
> David Thompson
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
as somebody who has a 924 electric Porsche I like mine very much , and have
another at the rental house , its a 79 and is in bad shape , I would take
it in a minute and now your offering a motor too !!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
so the motor was in a truck running , and at 120 v
> The good stuff. The tranny is still there, as is the power transfer
> shaft, bell housing, and some clutch parts. All the glass is intact. The
> doors open and shut with still satisfying easy "thunk". The seats are
> the nice Recaro seats.... put a cover on them. The lights are not
> attached, but all the parts appear to be there. There is even a few
> boxes of little bits and screws and stuff. 5 wheels - and they hold air.
> The brakes work....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:33 PM 11/04/04 -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
Comments inserted...
> With a 20A charge rate how much self-heating are the
> batteries (Orbital Bluetops) likely to get?
Not much unless overcharged.
<snip> Is it worth the effort?
They run pretty cold until they reach full charge.
That's the datapoint that I needed to know at this time, thanks. On with
the design.
<snip>
R3, R23, R13 and R11 are not needed for off board loads. Just connect U1C to
Ref 0.7.
I assume R23 is a 'typo', since it's in the undervoltage detector. I've got
as far as leaving R3 in, and putting R11 into the holes for R34 for the
voltage divider. Probably neater than the link to the ref, anyway. R11 and
C3 left off, but as previously described one of R11 holes becomes gate
drive connection for the reconfigured Q1. I assume (since I have not seen a
'factory' reg) that Q1 is normally on the underside of the PCB?
Since you are not using overtemp cutout therefore what you are doing makes
perfect sense.
Good, and I'm glad I explained it without being confusing (I'm good at that).
<snip>This is true as long as the current through the thermistor part of the
bridge does not pull D5 out of regulation. You may need to reduce R10 to
keep D5 operating properly.
A very good point, some more experimentation to do.
The red LED on the board is the tattletail inside the battery box. The user
will only see the momentary undervoltage on the regbus. I expected this
signal to be used to sound a buzzer to remind the user to lift off the
throttle to avoid damage to the batteries. I thought it would need too many
wires to take all the red LED signals out the regbus to have individual
indicators in the driver compartment.
One of the reasons for doing this vehicle is for my guys to use at work for
local errands. I remember being 21, and two of the guys are in that age
group. So I like the idea of the tattletail on the dash.
I'm building a digital scanner looking at optocoupled outputs of LM3914
bargraph voltmeters (one per battery), which is 10 bits, so an extra bit or
two is no big deal. Not the cheapest A/D by a long shot, but simple and no
relays. The problem with the LM3914 is when the voltage goes below the
lowest bit, there are no outputs on. So the undervolt detection takes care
of that, too.
> available (I want in part to control the charger from the regulating
> signals). These are some of the reasons that I decided to make my own
> interface.
It makes perfect sense.
<snip>
I doubt that the thermal gradient will be so extreme that this would be a
concern with a single layer of batteries.
Good. Although in the center of the battery box there are two layers of
batteries, the heater plates are part of the mounting system, so the upper
layer has their own heaters anyway.
Once I get all of the changes sorted and the daughter boards made, I'll
report back the results. Others may want to recover the bypassing heat, too.
Thanks again, Joe.
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All the data has been captured. The final dvd has not been started as yet.
To make a long story short, the lady in charge of our other school campus
just left on maternity leave about 3 weeks ago. Since then I have been
doing my job AND hers, and hers is 4 miles away from mine.
Spare time has been sorely lacking. I HOPE to get some of it done this
week.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
Whenever man comes up with a better mousetrap, nature immediately comes up
with a better mouse. - James Carswell
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Seth
> Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 6:14 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Nedra Drags Video
>
>
> Any results from the MiniDV yet? Is a DVD available yet?
>
>
> Seth
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James and All,
--- James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah, the choices we face in life... I'm thinking of
> buying a 2000 Honda
> Insight for $8K with the idea of converting it to a
> straight electric in
> another three years or so (three years since buying
> the Honda would wipe
> out my EV fund), but I have to weigh that against
> keeping my cash and
> converting my current ride (2000 Hyundai Accent) to
> an EV next year.
A Honda Insight has several advandages when
converted like low aero drag which increases range
nicely if you use the freeway and relatively low
weight.
But it will be worth more as a high mileage long
range vehicle and worth more later as the first Hybrid
not to mention alum chassis, mol, custom hand built
car you can buy so in 20 yrs of great mileage you
should be able to sell it for a good penny if you keep
it stock.
And does give new meaning to the phrase 'Butt
Ugly'. Or wait until Insights come out of warranty
when their price will drop a lot in a few yrs.
I'd go for a Porsche 924-944,small BMW's, MR-2's,
ect to convert as they would be cheaper, as light
after ICE removal and carry bigger batt packs for your
commute.
Say out loud, I have an electric Porsche 924, then
say, I have an electric Hyundai, which will sound,
look better, last longer, inspire more EV's and sell
better and at a higher price when it comes time?
I doubt that anyone's replacement parts are more
expensive than Honda's, another very bad point for
them.
But 10 yr old+ dead Porsches, BMW's, ect are cheap
now under $1,000 for a good chassis. I see them all
the time for $250, the limit for free ads in the local
mullet wrappers.
If you are doing that much work, it's worth having
a great chassis to start with.
I'd keep the Hyundai as a paid off second car and
do a Porsche, ect, exciting type car as an EV. And
being 10 yrs old, used parts are far cheaper for
future repairs. The older ones are lighter too.
No car payments will go a long way to pay for your
EV conversion and allow it to be done sooner.
If I was going to spend enough money on Orbitals
and their safe charging for that range, instead I'd go
for used ni-cads, probably cost less than new Orbitals
and last much longer, 15-20 yrs.
AGM's range is not good, ni-cads beat them with
1/2 the weight or less and regular lead batts by 3/4
the weight for the same range. Ni-cads don't lose
power in the cold so even better in winter.
Or go for Li-ion which should be viable nicely by
the time you get the rest built. I'd go for them
before Evercells, AGM's.
I hope my next pack will be Li-ions or ni-cads
when my present batts dies in a couple of yrs.
Design the pack size for twice your normal commute
or more for good life. If you can charge at work a 50
mile range would work for you assuming 35 miles is
round trip. But getting this with AGM's will be costly
though could be fast.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> I have a 35-mile commute, but I've decided that 50
> miles is my minimum
> tolerable range so that I'm not shackled to a
> sole-route vehicle and so
> that I don't have to pitch the batteries the instant
> they start to fade.
> The Hyundai conversion could handle that (barely
> with Orbitals, and I'd
> have to charge at work to avoid beating them to
> death in a year; Evercels
> would do the job comfortably), but the Honda
> wouldn't be able to carry as
> much battery weight (GVWR on the Hyundai is #3300)
> and the aero advantage
> and lighter tare might not be enough to compensate
> for that.
>
> Another concern is that 8K is a hell of a lot of
> money to sink into a
> glider (since there's no resale market for the
> Insight parts I'd be
> removing) and there are no aftermarket springs,
> brakes, etc. for the
> Insight, whereas you can get all that stuff for the
> Hyundai (and you
> don't have to pay the gold-pressed latinum prices
> that the Honda stuff
> would cost). And I'm sorry to have to say this, but
> the Insight is one
> butt-ugly car behind the doors. I don't know if I
> could respect myself
> knowing how much I paid to look at the back end of
> that car every day.
> At this point, I'm halfway inclined to stick with my
> original idea and
> let the Insight pass on by. Anyone want to try and
> talk me into buying
> it anyway?
>
> David Thompson
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Derrick:
You can bypass the battery if you just turn down the voltage on the K & W at
the trimpot. However, bypassing may not be necessary.
The GFI tripping isn't necessarily because a battery is bad, but just
because there is a path from one of its terminals to ground at some point.
Usually there is just dirt or acid mist on top of the case. A good cleaning
takes care of the problem. If dirt or corrosion byproducts or water has
accumulated in the bottom of the box, that can cause the problem and be a
pain to clean.
The battery may very well be fine.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 1:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: working on an electric car: lesson 1
>
> I previously posted some details that I'd picked up a fully working car on
> eBay. I finally have the paperwork but it's still not titled. However,
> I've been preparing for a while. In January I noticed the batteries all
> needed to be watered. The first day it was above freezing I watered them,
> and turned on the charger, and went to bed.
>
> I took it out of the garage briefly a few weeks later, and noticed it
> didn't want to climb the driveway to go back in. Odd. So I plugged it into
> the charger, and noticed the ground fault on the K&W BC-20 was tripped.
> Crap.
>
> Since I had been planning to anyway, I ordered a PFC-20. Well, since it's
> still a bit out, but I got the paperwork and need to charge the car if
> it's to be able to pass the safety inspection and get a PA title, I
> decided to see what the problem was today. Isolated the charger from the
> DC system: didn't trip. Reattached it, cut the battery string. Tripped.
>
> Ok. Well, at this point I wondered if perhaps I'd damaged the cabling
> somehow. Seemed unlikely. I disconnected batteries 2-14 of the 16 battery
> string, and it didn't trip. I disconnected batteries 6-13 (the ones in the
> back) and it did trip. Soon I isolated the problem to batteries 3-5, and
> then to battery 3. Bypassed it, and the system doesn't trip now. So I
> guess I should figure out where I can get a T-105, or go to the Costco 40
> miles away to get their equivalent so I can get back in business.
>
> I bought rubber gloves and insulated tools for the occasion; Dealing with
> the gloves was only a minor annoyance, I suspect I'll be able to deal with
> this well.
>
> Lesson #1 passed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick question: How does a bypass regulator consisting of a zener diode
and a bulb work? If you configure the diode to start bypassing at say
14.7, does the bulb reduce the charge current for the entire string to
the resistance of the bulb? Does this put out a lot of heat? Slow down
the charge on the rest of the modules? Etc?
Thanks!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa (EVCO) has launched a campaign to ask the
government of Ontario to make electric-assist bikes legal on Ontario roads.
Interested Ontarians are asked to write the Premier, the Minister of Transportation
and their MPP seeking their support for the initiative.
More information on the campaign at http://www.evco.ca/ebike.html
More information on electric bikes and similar vehicles at
http://www.econogics.com/ev/evbikes.htm
Darryl McMahon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to hear this came as a surprise to you. I don't try to keep it a secret. I
do post regarding the status of the On-Road EV Inventory on occasion, and try to
point to various parts of the treasure trove (IMHO) starting at
http://www.econogics.com/ev/evindex.htm when I feel it is appropriate.
There are some other folks that point to the site as well (e.g. David Roden noted
recently that my write-up had been lifted verbatim recently for an ebay sale).
We typically come up reasonably high on Internet search engines on specific topics
of relevance, and even for "electric vehicles".
We maintain a webpage for EVDL and related resources
(http://www.econogics.com/ev/evdl.htm), and other sites maintain such lists of
relevant links as well. Many others return the favour.
But if you have suggestions on other means of making this information source more
widely-known, by all means, please let me know.
Darryl McMahon
Econogics
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Copies to: From: "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: EV history site
Date sent: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:45:33 -0700
>
> http://www.econogics.com/ev/evhistry.htm
>
> One of the staff at Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI,
> in Portland, OR) found this site when looking for pictures of
> Thomas Edison. There's a rare one of him (Edison, not the staff
> member) driving an electric car sometime around 1914 with his
> son. Note that he was known for being quite reckless (even derailing
> his electric train multiple times) so his family kept him from
> driving as much as possible, making this a quite rare photo.
>
> There's a nice picture of a Henney, too, along with many others.
> Quite an extensive list. Links to currently active sites, too.
>
> Since I hadn't seen reference to this before, I thought some
> of you might be interested.
>
> --
> Eric Johnson
> Portland, OR
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
------- End of forwarded message -------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2004-03-31 at 11:16, Christopher Zach wrote:
> Ok, I have a thought here for a basic battery telemetry interface on my
> Prizm.
>
> My problem is twofold: First, I want to not have anything that comes out
> of the pack which can kill me by default. Given this is a 300 volt pack
> that means I need a default-off interlock on any wiring solution that
> exits the pack. Like the contactors that are in place now; no wires will
> be hot at a fatal voltage unless I command them to be hot.
How about using the Lee Hart style battery balancer (minus the
balancing). A chain of DPDT relays, 1 for each battery inside the
battery box. Then only the 12v control wires for the relays and one
pair of HV wires leaves the battery box. Wired correctly the HV wires
would never be live unless commanded to do so. (unless a relay
sticks... )
Or install a rotary switch inside the battery box that has its shaft
extending out to some accessible location.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Simple regulator question
> Quick question: How does a bypass regulator consisting of a zener diode
> and a bulb work?
It is a simple form of bypass regulator that gets you the most necessary
features at little cost. But you have to work within their limitations,
primarily low bypass current capacity.
> If you configure the diode to start bypassing at say
> 14.7, does the bulb reduce the charge current for the entire string to
> the resistance of the bulb?
No, it only bypasses current around the battery that it is connected to.
In its simplest form you would have to manually look at the bulbs and keep
turning down the current as they light up.
If you want to reduce the current automatically, you need an external
circuit that measures the light level in the battery box and tells the
charger to reduce the current when the light levels are above a threshold.
If the charger output cannot be easily changed it could be done by just
switching another light bulb in series with the charger and battery string.
> Does this put out a lot of heat?
It can, here in Wisconsin getting more heat in the battery box is usually a
good thing, in the south it may be a problem. Putting the zener/s and light
bulb outside of the battery box would move the heat outside the box, but you
would then begin to lose the (simple) part of the regulators by adding lots
of wiring, fuses and such.
> Slow down the charge on the rest of the modules? Etc?
If the current in the battery string is reduced the slower charging
batteries will take that much longer to charge. But that is true of any
bypass regulators with limited current capacity.
>
> Thanks!
> Chris
I just had a thought that in addition to measuring the light intensity
level, maybe looking at the color spectrum could provide some info.
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you configure the diode to start bypassing at say
14.7, does the bulb reduce the charge current for the entire string to
the resistance of the bulb?
No, it only bypasses current around the battery that it is connected to.
In its simplest form you would have to manually look at the bulbs and keep
turning down the current as they light up.
If you want to reduce the current automatically, you need an external
circuit that measures the light level in the battery box and tells the
charger to reduce the current when the light levels are above a threshold.
If the charger output cannot be easily changed it could be done by just
switching another light bulb in series with the charger and battery string.
Understood, however if the battery is part of a string then as soon as
the voltage on one battery hits 15 volts (let's say) something
interesting seems to happen.
Is it that excess voltage is diverted to making the bulb shine? Or is it
that the resistance of the battery+diode together now equal a constant
amount. If the former then the bulb would just get brighter if you
didn't reduce the current till it burned out, right? If the latter, then
the charge current on the whole string will suddenly drop.
All this assumes one is doing a constant voltage charge, not contsant
current. Say 375 volts for 25 batteries in the string.
Slow down the charge on the rest of the modules? Etc?
If the current in the battery string is reduced the slower charging
batteries will take that much longer to charge. But that is true of any
bypass regulators with limited current capacity.
Right, but what if your charger is "dumb" and can't be cycled back. Will
a constant-voltage charger work with this sort of set-up?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> Now I've got to tell a John Wayland story. Way back when, after I
> first purchased my motor and controller for my motorcycle, John
> came over to show me how to wire it all up... he immediately saw
> the interest my kids had in what was happening and spent more time
> talking with them and showing them how things work than with
> me. Of course I still got what I needed out of the exchange, but
> the thing that I remember most about that evening was how well
> John engaged my kids...
I agree! John is a great gift to us all, especially younger people! His
high performance EVs and their wild sound systems *really* inspire kids,
and get them interested in EVs.
When I started EVing, I was an evangelist and tried to inspire others. I
couldn't do it. I just don't have the personality. Besides, most adult's
minds have set like concrete -- it takes a jackhammer to even chip them.
But kids... Far too late, I realized that it's the kids we should be
engaging. Their minds aren't already frozen; they are willing, even
EAGER to learn, experiment, and try new things. Besides, THEY are the
ones that will have to fix this mess we adults have made of our
transportation system with its total dependence on cars and imported
oil!
That's why I'm doing the BEST program <http://www.bestoutreach.org>.
It's a way to teach kids about tools, problem solving, and thinking for
themselves. And incidentally, about EVs :-)
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
> I was tinkering around with some low voltage (28-36) hi-amperage
> (200-400) contactors that I just got in and was thinking on how
> to further extend their capacity. Mag blowouts are already planned
> but I was wondering about also sliding an insulator between the
> contacts as they break. Thoughts pro or con welcome.
The first problem is that most low-voltage contactors have inadequate
spacing between the off-state contacts. You'd want to increase this
spacing as much as possible. This is troublesome, because then the
solenoid isn't strong enough to pull it in.
If you weaken the spring so it can, then the contact will open slower.
This increases the time that it will arc; also bad.
Magnetic blowouts are great if the contact design allows it. You need to
get the magnets right on either side of the contact to produce a strong
field at right angles to where the arc will form. And, you need a place
for the arc that is away from the main mating contact surfaces;
otherwise the arc will produce bumps or debris at the edge of the
contact that interfere with proper operation. Finally, the magnets need
to be insulated so it doesn't arc to THEM. It can be very difficult to
meet all these requirements unless the contactor was designed with
magnetic blowouts in mind.
As for inserting some insulator into the contact space, it will be a
challenge to find a material that the arc won't just burn in two! You
would also have to worry about debris from the burnt insulator getting
on the contacts, and so interfering with them closing.
Other methods exist that you didn't mention. One is to use compressed
air to blow out the arc. Another is to operate the contactor in a sealed
atmosphere that is oxygen-free to prevent contact burning and oxidation.
Lots of gases have been used; dry nitrogen is probably the easiest.
Another is an arc ladder; a series of points or rings around the contact
so the arc forms at the edges and not the center. Another is a parallel
high-voltage contact that opens after the main contact, and so takes the
brunt of the arcing.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
thanks for the advice.
The rear bearing in the ADC 9" has the p/n 6305NSE.
any idea what the NSE means ? NAPA says the closest
they have is 6305RSJ. would that do the trick ?
Is there someplace I can find a P/N decoder for NACHI
bearings ?
thanks
~Fortunat
--- Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bearings are generally standard with the last two
> digits being the ID
> in mm/5. So a 6205 bearing has a 25mm ID, for
> example. (It probable has
> a C3 designation after that for extra radial
> clearance when the motor
> gets hot) The digits ahead telly you other things
> abotu the bearing.
>
> Fractional inch bearings are pretty rare these
> days (ask Father time).
> McMaster, Applied materials, MSC and even big
> hardware stores will
> carry metric bearings. Not sure about Napa.
> www.skf.com has a lot of
> information if you have a DSL connection or better.
>
> I am not a big fan of NACHI. SFK, Timken, NTN, FAG
> are all brands I
> have had good luck with.
>
> Seth
>
>
__________________________________
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