EV Digest 3462
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Web Sites For Donor Chassis Specs?
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Web Sites For Donor Chassis Specs?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Web Sites For Donor Chassis Specs?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Wire size calculator
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Wire size calculator
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Web Sites For Donor Chassis Specs?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) WAY OT, biodiesel exhaust was Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, diesel
hybrid
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Draining the Prizm's pack
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: electrical noise
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: electrical noise
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: electrical noise
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Draining the Prizm's pack
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: electrical noise
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) EVLN(Buckeye Bullet EV discussed @ SAE dinner)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EVLN(ZAP visited China to find crack)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EVLN(URGENCY FOR HYBRIDS, media believing its own copy)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EVLN(Busch driving amidst the Manhattan cabbies in an electric car)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Web Sites For Donor Chassis Specs?, 92-95 Honda
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Base load pollution and charging EVs
by "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to hear if anyone has favorite web sites for locating specs on
possible donor chassis. I mean things like curb weight, engine weight,
gear ratios, and year/model interchanges for transmissions, suspension,
brakes. Original 0-60 times would be interesting. Anything else that has
proved useful in evaluating potential donor cars.
I use http://www.edmunds.com and http://www.carfolio.com a lot, but they
are not complete enough.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, April 13, 2004 9:53 AM, Chris Tromley
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Chris Zach wrote:
>
> > Sort of since I am now convinced that resting battery voltage is
> > no indication of capacity.
> >
> > And given that, what good are charge regulators? If my pack
> > were truly out of balance I would expect the battery voltages
> > to be all over the place, especially after running the pack at
> > an "average" of 10vpb at "C" a few hours earlier...
>
> Maybe you're right, Hawkers all pretty much come up to the same
> voltage when charged, regardless of capacity.
The key point here is that battery voltage has *NO* relation to
capacity.
It does, however, have a relationship to state of charge (SOC). That
is, a 5Ah PbA battery at 70%SOC will have the same resting voltage as
a 50Ah PbA battery at 70%SOC, while a 50Ah battery at 50%SOC will
have a different resting voltage than either.
To answer Chris Zach's question about the merit of charge regulators,
they operate during charge, and the on charge voltages are
dramatically different from the resting voltages.
Lower capacity batteries in a series string will reach 'full'
(100%SOC) sooner than the higher capacity batteries, and as they near
'full', their voltages can shoot up dramatically. The function of
charge regulators is to prevent the voltage of these 'early peakers'
from reaching dangerous levels while allowing the remaining batteries
to continue charging at an unreduced rate. Without regulators,
either the high voltages of the low capacity batteries would cause
the charger to terminate before the higher capacity batteries were
full, or the high voltages would result in the low capacity batteries
gassing excessively and so become even lower in capacity. Or both.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have found quite a bit in the cartest program, as well as at the following
sites:
http://www.new-cars.com
http://www.carsdirect.com/
http://www.nctd.com/
www.allpar.com (mopars only)
Usually, I first go to google and type in the car and the word "specs." For
example, "1996 Sunfire specs."
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electro Automotive [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 11:29 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Web Sites For Donor Chassis Specs?
>
> I would like to hear if anyone has favorite web sites for locating specs
> on
> possible donor chassis. I mean things like curb weight, engine weight,
> gear ratios, and year/model interchanges for transmissions, suspension,
> brakes. Original 0-60 times would be interesting. Anything else that has
> proved useful in evaluating potential donor cars.
>
> I use http://www.edmunds.com and http://www.carfolio.com a lot, but they
> are not complete enough.
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shari Prange wrote:
> I would like to hear if anyone has favorite web sites for
> locating specs on
> possible donor chassis. I mean things like curb weight,
> engine weight,
> gear ratios, and year/model interchanges for transmissions,
> suspension,
> brakes. Original 0-60 times would be interesting. Anything
> else that has
> proved useful in evaluating potential donor cars.
>
> I use http://www.edmunds.com and http://www.carfolio.com a
> lot, but they
> are not complete enough.
This will give you some basics:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/nhtsa_inertia_database_english.xls
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know of a good wire size calculator page? I'd like to run some
calculations on my battery balancer cables; I'm looking at a max of 10
amps at 12 volts for charging (the relay rating). Depending on the
charts I can go from 20 gauge wire to 10 gauge wire.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lots of them. Have not really found a favorite.
http://www.google.com/search?q=ELECTRICAL+WIRE+SIZE+CALCULATOR&sourceid=oper
a&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Wire size calculator
Anyone know of a good wire size calculator page? I'd like to run some
calculations on my battery balancer cables; I'm looking at a max of 10
amps at 12 volts for charging (the relay rating). Depending on the
charts I can go from 20 gauge wire to 10 gauge wire.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent this message to the EV list back in 1999, but alas, that link is
now broken.
I did a quick search on "engine weight.txt" and found another link that
works:
http://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt
The table contains engine weights, some engine dimensions, and a pretty
extensive appendix of sources.
cheers,
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------
From the archives:
I stumbled across this table of IC engine weights and sizes...
http://members.fullnet.net/mulligan/weight.txt <--------- DEAD LINK <http://members.fullnet.net/mulligan/weight.txt>
...might be helpful for those trying to choose a donor car for
conversion.
cheers,
Andrew
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Tromley wrote:
Shari Prange wrote:
I would like to hear if anyone has favorite web sites for
locating specs on
possible donor chassis. I mean things like curb weight,
engine weight,
gear ratios, and year/model interchanges for transmissions,
suspension,
brakes. Original 0-60 times would be interesting. Anything
else that has
proved useful in evaluating potential donor cars.
I use http://www.edmunds.com and http://www.carfolio.com a
lot, but they
are not complete enough.
This will give you some basics:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/nhtsa_inertia_database_english.xls
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a physician (not affiliated in any way with the
American Lung Association), let me weigh in here. I
suspect the reason the ALA was dismissive of diesel
and even biodiesel, has everything to do with
carcinogenic exhaust. For example, in Los Angeles
county, diesel exhaust is the single largest proven
source of environmental carcinogens the average
resident gets exposed to. It accounts for 70% of all
airborne carcinogens. That's huge and I doubt it's
much different in the rest of the country. As far as
I know, even though biodiesel exhaust smells better,
it still has the many of the proven carcinogens in it,
more of some, less of others (although I suspect there
probably is an overall reduction since it is
inherently sulfur free). There is a lot of
contradictory research out there which may be why the
ALA is less than enthusiastic about biodiesel. For
example, in some studies, it has higher particulate
matter emissions, others less. Same story with a lot
of the rest of the pollutants. I've asked questions
about it every time I get a chance. My impression is
biodiesel fans are much more concerned with decreasing
our reliance on fossil fuels than reducing
carcinogenic pollutants ... an undisputed advantage
for biodiesel. Micro, and nano particles with
carcinogenic material are particularly hazardous to
your health and nano-particles are nearly impossible
to filter out, since many are formed AFTER the exhaust
leaves the tailpipe.
Back OT, I'll take the batteries (preferably not lead
or Ni-Cad) thanks.
-Sam
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Like Jim,
>
> I also do not want a discussion thread of the pros
> and cons
> of fuels ... (so do not start any fuel threads
> please),
>
> but when I (as an EVr) was invited to the ALA
> (American Lung
> Association) Navato Clean Fuels meeting (EVs were
> considered
> as a clean fuel vehicle), the ALA rep made is very
> clear that
> diesel was evil: micro-particulates lodging in
> lungs, etc.,
> and ALA was doing everything they could to stop its
> use (all
> the while there were large Chevron Oil helium
> balloons at each
> table, go figure).
>
> I had advised her of cleaner bio-diesel, but she
> would not
> hear of it (hear no evil). This seemed very odd, and
> heavy
> handed of an organization that touted themselves as
> informed
> and embracing all cleaner technologies.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mason Convey wrote:
He told this lady the exhaust gas from the
Prius was cleaner than the air going into the engine.
I'd highly recommend him to clean air in his house by
plumbing exhaust from his Prius in it and close all the
windows shut. All he has to do is leave it running in
the closed garage and report to the customers next day
how much better he feels.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked (in part):
I never understood why none of the auto manufacturers never have done
a deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in fuel economy.
Off hand, I would guess it has a lot to do with the general dislike of
diesel powered vehicles in this country.
As dislike of small cars in general.
I'm not trying to start a
discussion about how nice newer diesels are, but there is a large
percentage of people who would NEVER consider buying "one of those stinky,
noisy, diesels" - me included.
Beats me. Why not then buy a clean and quiet diesel instead of stinky
and noisy one? Today's diesels are NOT even close to those you got to
drive as a volunteer, but perhaps prejudice prevents you from even
checking them out.
The answer you may not like: the problem is in you, not in diesels.
I asked quite a few people why they don't like *today's* diesels.
They say they just don't, don't know why. Key word being "just",
which is meaningless answer. Sort of like asking a kid why did he
behaved badly today.
If more people would overcome false perceptions and prejudice,
we could perhaps have a bit cleaner air.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
> I was thinking about your problem and wondering if you couldn't
> dump the juice form one pack into the other. You have 2 packs,
> a golf cart charger plugged into a variable transformer, and
> pump the amps from one pack to the other...
Steve, you're a genius! That's a simple, elegant solution to a difficult
problem.
Suppose you want to test your 120v pack of ten 12v batteries, and the
only equipment handy is a multimeter and a plain old 12v 15amp
automotive charger.
1. Remove wires to split the pack into two isolated equal 5-battery
60-volt strings. Let's call them "A" and "B".
2. Individually charge the 5 "A" batteries with the 12v charger
until they are full (to 15v at 1 amp, for example).
3. Meanwhile, individually discharge each of the 5 "B" batteries to
10.5v under load (with the car's 12v headlights, for example).
4. Connect the 5 "A" batteries and the 12v charger all in series.
(Check the voltage; if you have it right, it will be about 72v)
5. Now connect the 5 "A" batteries and 12v charger to the 5 "B"
batteries, + to +, - to -. The "A" batteries will discharge into
the "B" batteries, with the 12v charger providing an ammeter and
supplying the additional energy to overcome losses.
6. When the first "A" battery falls to 10.5v under load, disconnect.
The "A string is now dead, and the "B" string fully charged.
7. Swap the "A" and "B" strings, and repeat, this time discharging
the "B" batteries and charging the "A" batteries.
The charge/discharge current is only limited by whatever the 12v charger
can supply. With a big enough charger, you could handle pretty high
power packs without any big resistors (or a big electric bill :-)
With a simple transformer-rectifier charger, you can use a light dimmer
or variac to adjust the AC voltage into the charger to regulate the
charging current. (But this won't work with a fancy constant-voltage
transformer or regulated charger).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
> Someone in my immediate neighborhood has some kind of electrical
> device that only gets switched on once in a while... I don't know
> what it is, but there is a goddawful transformer-like squee noise
> that - at 4am - is very disturbing...
>
> My greatest fear is that if we start seeing more EVs around, this
> kind of terrible high-pitched straight-into-the-cranium noise is
> going to reflect badly on the technology
There's nothing special about EVs (or their chargers) that would make
such a noise. So, I'm afraid you'll have to get up some morning and go
find out what's making that racket. It could be anything from an old TV
set to some piece of industrial equipment.
My personal annoyance are the garbage trucks around here. Roaring
diesel, screeching brakes, crash and clatter of cans being dumped by the
robot arm, and repeat. It made me fervently hope for success for the
hybrid truck project I worked on a bit for Navistar (which was killed).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Come now Lee, the only thing more exciting for the kids to watch pull into
the neighborhood besides the garbage truck is the ice cream man.
Personally, I still enjoy watching the garbage man.
damon
My personal annoyance are the garbage trucks around here. Roaring
diesel, screeching brakes, crash and clatter of cans being dumped by the
robot arm, and repeat. It made me fervently hope for success for the
hybrid truck project I worked on a bit for Navistar (which was killed).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
_________________________________________________________________
Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for 2
months!
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had this problem and it was driving me crazy. Sometimes I could not
listen to the radio at all. Turned out to be my fault. I had a light at my
front door and I put a light sensor in so it would go on a night and off in
the day. The only problem was there was enough reflected light to make it
think it was day every time it went on. I thought this was quite neat since
it just dimmed the bulb to a nice glow. Only later realized it was putting
out massive RF noise and the cause of my radio problems.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: April 13, 2004 4:22 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: electrical noise
Sam Uzi wrote:
> Someone in my immediate neighborhood has some kind of electrical
> device that only gets switched on once in a while... I don't know
> what it is, but there is a goddawful transformer-like squee noise
> that - at 4am - is very disturbing...
>
> My greatest fear is that if we start seeing more EVs around, this
> kind of terrible high-pitched straight-into-the-cranium noise is
> going to reflect badly on the technology
There's nothing special about EVs (or their chargers) that would make
such a noise. So, I'm afraid you'll have to get up some morning and go
find out what's making that racket. It could be anything from an old TV
set to some piece of industrial equipment.
My personal annoyance are the garbage trucks around here. Roaring
diesel, screeching brakes, crash and clatter of cans being dumped by the
robot arm, and repeat. It made me fervently hope for success for the
hybrid truck project I worked on a bit for Navistar (which was killed).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, let's let this thread die, please. It has wandered awfully far off topic. If
you want to continue to discuss the acceptance of Diesel vehicles in the US,
please do so off-list.
Thanks.
David Roden
Assistant EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like it.
Here are some more options.
1. Replace the 12v charger with a 12v PM motor.
2. Drive this motor with a reversible variable speed motor, such as a
variable speed drill, or lathe, or mill, or a treadmill motor and a cheap
speed control.
3. Now just need to flip the reverse switch to change which pack is being
charged or discharged.
I tend to favor spinning motors over humming transformers. :)
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 5:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Draining the Prizm's pack
Steve Clunn wrote:
> I was thinking about your problem and wondering if you couldn't
> dump the juice form one pack into the other. You have 2 packs,
> a golf cart charger plugged into a variable transformer, and
> pump the amps from one pack to the other...
Steve, you're a genius! That's a simple, elegant solution to a difficult
problem.
Suppose you want to test your 120v pack of ten 12v batteries, and the
only equipment handy is a multimeter and a plain old 12v 15amp
automotive charger.
1. Remove wires to split the pack into two isolated equal 5-battery
60-volt strings. Let's call them "A" and "B".
2. Individually charge the 5 "A" batteries with the 12v charger
until they are full (to 15v at 1 amp, for example).
3. Meanwhile, individually discharge each of the 5 "B" batteries to
10.5v under load (with the car's 12v headlights, for example).
4. Connect the 5 "A" batteries and the 12v charger all in series.
(Check the voltage; if you have it right, it will be about 72v)
5. Now connect the 5 "A" batteries and 12v charger to the 5 "B"
batteries, + to +, - to -. The "A" batteries will discharge into
the "B" batteries, with the 12v charger providing an ammeter and
supplying the additional energy to overcome losses.
6. When the first "A" battery falls to 10.5v under load, disconnect.
The "A string is now dead, and the "B" string fully charged.
7. Swap the "A" and "B" strings, and repeat, this time discharging
the "B" batteries and charging the "A" batteries.
The charge/discharge current is only limited by whatever the 12v charger
can supply. With a big enough charger, you could handle pretty high
power packs without any big resistors (or a big electric bill :-)
With a simple transformer-rectifier charger, you can use a light dimmer
or variac to adjust the AC voltage into the charger to regulate the
charging current. (But this won't work with a fancy constant-voltage
transformer or regulated charger).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
>
> this is kinda out of left field, but
>
> someone in my immediate neighborhood has some kind of electrical device
> that only gets switched on once in a while... I don't know what it is, but
> there is a goddawful transformer-like squee noise that - at 4am - is very
> disturbing...
>
> my greatest fear is that if we start seeing more EVs around, this kind of
> terrible high-pitched straight-into-the-cranium noise is going to reflect
> badly on the technology
>
> my question is: what causes this kind of noise and what kinds of things can
> be done to limit or at least suppress it? I'm guessing that good circuit
> design is a primary factor... and plain old accoustical dampending is good
> too... does sheilding (eg: wrapping offending components in a Faraday
> cage, etc) help?
>
> in any case, it's something to keep in mind, since even I - who's a major
> EV fan - would quickly become unhappy if someone's whining charger kept me
> awake all night
Cut to Woodburn '03..
I arrive at the power pole with a couple of PFC50s... there's somebody
there with a old Lester... if Humms adb Buzzes so load that you can't
talk over it. It's a God awefull racket... I ask him to remove it, and
feel free to use one of my chargers. Man I have been spoiled by quite
chargers. Just fan noise....That's OK nothing else allowed.
Last Saturday... here at Manzanita... Joe Smalley found the open in the
5Kw air cooled Diesel generator of Tom True's, It's running about 100 ft
away, it's so loud that I have my Gun ear muffs on. Yea... THAT noisey.
Joe could here the Buck "Sizzle" from a old PFC30 that I have in
Goldie(PFC30 #1). I of course can't hear over about 8Khz , So I don't
notice. Note that the lack of Gun muffs in my early days is WHY I have
no high end hearing....
Quite is in the ear of the beholder... but we try to keep everything as
quite as possible. Even the fans can get to you if you leave them on all
day, This happens with the test bench. Some times it's left fired up all
day... and it's a big relief when I shut it down.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > You really need to run the charger
> > from a GFI protected outlet. Just so you don't hurt it. I
> > will give you more tips later when you get to the install point.
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> Again I have to apologize for being behind on my list reading. This
> post made my head hurt a little, because I thought I had a handle on
> isolation, GFIs and all that. Using a GFI to protect the *charger* is a
> new concept for me.
>
> I believe you when you say I should have a GFI, but I'm not clear how
> that protects the charger. More important to me is that I will have a
> GFI outlet that powers an isolation transformer, which will then power
> the charger. Safety ground passes through direct from the wall to the
> car chassis. If the isolation transformer is functioning properly, the
> GFI never comes into play. Does this setup put the charger at risk if
> there's a ground fault in the car? How?
>
> Chris
In the case that I posted on, the EV has a pretty hard Fault to chassis.
IF the Fault is to the Negative side of the pack and the charger is
running non iso AND the EArth ground is hooked up to the chassis, The is
a direct short from Line to earth gnd through a PFC charger, This will
open the fusem open the breaker, and it has about a %20 chance of
blowing out the rectifier and one of the IGBT in the charger.
In your case, Super over redundant iso and protection...You have opened
a new source of trouble. the GFI to the Iso primary is nice, but not
needed, It keeps a fault from the grid from making the Iso former get
hot. I use NO GFI in this case, but use a really stiff earth ground
bolted to the case of the transformer. It should be protected with a
breaker sized to the task at hand.
On the Secondary side the "Iso" side, you DO NOT WANT TO tie the Earth
ground to the chassis. you just moved the iso barrier. This is what you
are trying to solve.
You want the ground of the EV to attach to the center tap of the
secondary, so if a fault accors the fault current gets back to the
source, and it NOT AC gnd, it's now the common point on the secondary
windings of the Iso former.
What I want you to do is to isolated the charger from the chassis of
the EV, and connect the input of the charger to the 240 volt secondary
winding, and the earth Green ground of the AC side of the charger to the
center tap of the secondary. Then hook the DC green ground of the
charger to a 120 volt light build of about 25 watts, the other side of
the light goes to the Chassis of the EV.
You have Iso , You have a return path should there be a fault, you have
a visable indication of a fault, should there be "static", or some kind
of low level leak the light bleeds this off, and should you have a real
hard fault there is not enough power flowing to blow up the power stage
of the charger.
My Evs have AC ground connected and No DC ground used. The charger just
happens to be mounted on a Lexan sheet covering the rear battery pack.
I run most of my 240 charging at home NON iso. You don't work on the EV
in the Wet, and you shut the AC off should you need to work on the
battery pack or chassis.
When I test chargers with Goldie, the Charger feed is though the power
bench's 15Kw isoformer.
The last time I got "lit up" by Goldie was at the Portland Race way, I
was grid charging and standing in a puddle of water leaked from a Ice
cooled Gaser... or the 13 second Diesel Mercedes...
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Buckeye Bullet EV discussed @ SAE dinner)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.mlive.com/business/fljournal/index.ssf?/base/business-1/1081869806109750.xml
SAE meeting: Electric speedster to be on display
BUSINESS UPDATE
MUNDY TOWNSHIP
THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITION
Tuesday, April 13, 2004
JOURNAL BUSINESS WRITER
MUNDY TWP. -- The Buckeye Bullet, an electric car that set a
land-speed record for electrics on Oct. 17, will be the focus at the
April 26 technical dinner meeting of the Mid-Michigan Society of
Automotive Engineers at the Holiday Inn on Hill Road, The session is
open to the public.
The Bullet, designed and built by students at Ohio State University,
will be displayed during the session. A presentation on its
development and testing will follow the dinner.
The evening begins with social hour at 6 p.m.
Reservations are due by noon April 21. The cost is $20 for SAE
members, $12 for students and $25 for others. Reservations: (810)
735-1131.
***
Compiled from Journal wire services, staff reports.
� 2004 Flint Journal. Used with permission
�2004 MLive.com. All Rights Reserved.
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(ZAP visited China to find crack)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.caltradereport.com/eWebPages/page-two-1081899092.html
Vol. 1, No. 15 April 1 - April 15, 2004
ZAP EXPLORES NEW BUSINESS IN CHINA
SANTA ROSA - 04/14/04 - Representatives of electric car startup ZAP
have completed a visit to China to find a way "to crack the electric
car price barrier and deliver low-cost, production versions to
American consumers," according to a company spokesman.
ZAP CEO Steve Schneider visited China in February as part of a trade
mission with electric vehicle designer Dr. C.C. Chan to explore new
business opportunities.
Chan and Schneider traveled from Hong Kong to mainland China
visiting various manufacturers of electric vehicles, chassis,
components and propulsion systems in Shenzhen, Yantai, Wuhan,
Nanchang, Shanghai, Wuxi, and Haikou.
In 2003, ZAP contracted for the assembly of electric cars with one
of China's largest automobile manufacturers. The company is now
working to organize distribution for electric cars to dealers in
North, South, and Central America.
Publicly-owned ZAP has delivered more than 85,000 electric vehicles
including electric cars, bicycles, scooters, motorbikes, underwater
scooters to customers in more than 60 countries since it was founded
in 1994.
In November, 2002, ZAP's wholly owned subsidiary, Voltage Vehicles,
acquired Ford's Th!nk electric vehicle assets for a reported $10
million.
According to ZAP - which stands for Zero Air Pollution - Ford spent
about $123 million on its Th!nk program but decided to stop the
effort due to poor customer demand and lack of government support
for the cars.
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' ____
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(URGENCY FOR HYBRIDS, media believing its own copy)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.nypost.com/business/22651.htm
WASHINGTON NEEDS TO ACT ON THE URGENCY FOR HYBRID CARS
By JOHN CRUDELE
April 13, 2004 -- YOU don't have to look any further than the Javits
Center's International Auto Show to understand one of America's
biggest economic problems.
This isn't going to be a harangue about gas-guzzling cars or how
Americans should feel lucky to be paying only an arm (and not an arm
and a leg, as the Europeans do) for a gallon of gas. The way I look
at it, if somebody can afford to drive a car that gulps rather than
sips gasoline, then that's his or her business. (I drive a sports
car that's only a little short of being a gas hog.)
But walk around Javits this week and you'll see something important.
You won't see many cars that run on something other than gasoline.
Toyota has a new hybrid SUV. And GM is touting a hybrid Silverado,
but it won't be available until 2005.
Hybrid car engines, which use a combination of batteries and gas,
have been around for a few years now and they work just fine. But
you couldn't tell that from what is on display at the Auto Show.
Detroit has been very slow in adopting hybrid technology. Just last
week, William Clay Ford said Ford Motor would have three hybrid cars
- by 2007. 2007!? You'd think there was no emergency.
The numbers look impressive enough. J.D. Power & Associates, the
auto experts, believe Americans will be purchasing 350,000 hybrid
vehicles by 2008. It's not a big number. Americans purchase around 7
million cars a year.
That 350,000 guess is way down from the 500,000 J.D. Power was
predicting just a few years ago.
Walter McManus, the executive director of global forecasting for
J.D. Power, recently said that "the hybrid-electric vehicle market
has undergone some significant changes over the past several years,
and those changes have caused many of the manufacturers to adopt a
wait-and-see approach."
Wait and see? See what?
Should we see if the U.S. could dodge another major energy crisis?
See if we can get into another war in a country that, quite frankly,
most Americans wouldn't know was on the planet if it wasn't for its
oil reserves?
See if the price of gas can sink our economy? Should we wait and see
if problems like the bankruptcy of Social Security and even the
federal government can be put on hold while more financial resources
are diverted to the Middle East?
Don't blame the car companies for going slow on technology that
makes their products go further on less. Don't even blame the oil
companies, which have very little reason to encourage people to use
less of their product.
And for once, let's not point fingers at consumers for wanting
status-symbol big cars that they may also perceive as safer and more
comfortable.
Blame Washington.
Sure, it's always easy to blame politicians. They come and go so
quickly that you don't really have a target even if you think you
have dead aim.
But this is a legislative problem. Americans are not going to adopt
fuel-saving technology without Washington's help, any more than the
Greatest Generation would have built bombers during World War II if
Roosevelt hadn't placed orders for them.
Our gasoline problem is not insurmountable.
Right now, only about 12.4 percent of our gasoline comes from the
Middle East, mostly from Saudi Arabia. The biggest oil supplier is
actually Canada. And Russia, a current friend, is also ratcheting up
production and becoming a big supplier.
But why rely on any other country? Friends become foes. And
oil-producing countries become blackmailers.
Washington should make it compelling for auto makers to offer each
of their car models with a hybrid engine.
* Please send e-mail to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copyright 2004 NYP
Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved.
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Busch driving amidst the Manhattan cabbies in an electric car)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://insiderracingnews.com/CJ/041304.html
Cheers and Jeers Insider Racing News Copyright � 2000-2004. All
Rights Reserved. Nextel Cup� and NASCAR� are registered trademarks
of the National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing, Inc. This
web site is not affiliated with, endorsed by, or sponsored by
NASCAR�. The official NASCAR� website is "NASCAR� Online" and is
located at... www.nascar.com
Are you irritated, annoyed, or just generally bothered by something
Carol has written? Do you wish you had a public forum to voice an
opposing viewpoint? E-mail Carol, and look for an upcoming column of
point and counterpoint topics. Due to the volume of mail, all
letters cannot be used, but some may also be used in a future
rebuttal column. You can contact Carol at.. Insider Racing News
Cheers and Jeers...
Polar Bear Dave, Dyed Dogs, and a NASCAR Ballet?
By Carol Einarsson April 13, 2004
JEERS to the biggest sponsor suck-up so far this year, with Kurt
Busch actually being quoted as saying that the stop-and-go driving
situations of Manhattan in an electric car, driving amidst the
cabbies is "great practice for" Martinsville.
[...]
You can contact Carol at.. [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
===
[ Sucking up to his Ford sponser
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=%22Kurt+Busch%22+ford
with that statement and refers to the Escape hybrid as an Electric
car ]
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. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can only speak for mine, but the DX sedan vehicle
weight is 2220 with AC and manual trans. Load
capacity is 850 lbs, making GVWR 3070 lbs. 0-60 was
in about the 10.6 range; less if one had the V-TEC
motor. I don't have orig. gear ratios.
I think most useful is the number of batteries than
can be safely added without sacrificing structural
integrity, braking distances, F/R weight distribution
& handling, etc. etc.
> >
> > I would like to hear if anyone has favorite web
> sites for locating specs
> > on
> > possible donor chassis. I mean things like curb
> weight, engine weight,
> > gear ratios, and year/model interchanges for
> transmissions, suspension,
> > brakes. Original 0-60 times would be interesting.
> Anything else that has
> > proved useful in evaluating potential donor cars.
> >
> > I use http://www.edmunds.com and
> http://www.carfolio.com a lot, but they
> > are not complete enough.
> >
> > Shari Prange
> > Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113
> Telephone 831-429-1989
> > http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books
> * Videos * Since 1979
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe at least one of the U.S. taxpayer-funded PNGV prototypes was a diesel-
hybrid. Of course, that project was scrapped in favour of the "available real soon
now" hydrogen fuel cell cars.
Then, run biodiesel in that considerably-smaller compression ignition engine, and
that makes for a pretty clean hybrid (zero net GHGs, greatly reduced SOx, reduced
VOCs, roughly equivalent NOx to dinodiesel).
Darryl McMahon
(electric-biodiesel hybrid Porsche 914 conversion *still* in progress)
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
Date sent: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:56:41 -0400
> I never understood why none of the auto manufacturers never have done a
> deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in fuel economy. We
> designed one at GE-EV for the PNGV program at 80mpg, using a kubota tractor
> engine for use in small cars. Does anyone know if there are diesel-hybrid
> designs in the works and why not? Mark
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars
>
>
> > Don Buckshot wrote:
> > > about the Prius he was showing there .... He told this lady the exhaust
> > > gas from the Prius was cleaner than the air going into the engine. How
> > > in the H.... can he say that? Where is the common sense? More
> > > mis-information...
> >
> > Well, it IS cleaner .oO(not counting the CO2, which isn't a pollutant)
> > Sheesh, just can't win when they makup rules like Partial-ZEV?
> > Then they start count HEV and PZEV as "electric", how twisted is that.
> >
> > L8r
> > Ryan
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Personally, I've given up having this discussion with the uninformed. The media
have put a simple message (electric power plants pollute more than gas cars) into
the heads of many people, and they've bought it. Saw it on TV, must be true. It
doesn't matter to these people that its apples and oranges, or 100,000 tailpipes to
one smokestack. They've got a rationalization for keeping their gasser and dissing
the clean EV, and they're hanging onto it. I've tried lots of variants, including
"can you run your car on coal?" I'm trying this approach now.
I finance wind-power generation (via GreenTags) in excess of the amount of
electricity used to charge my EVs. Therefore, net effect, they are cleaner than
zero emissions, because I'm cleaning up someone else's electricity beyond my own.
Please show me an ICE that produces less than zero net emissions. Keep it simple,
don't confuse 'em with the big picture. (And when they finally get to, I don't
want a wind turbine in my back yard, ask them if they're OK with an oil refinery in
their back yard.)
Compared to what it has cost me to put multiple EVs on the road (and off-road) over
the years, buying green power is a trivial investment, and it completes the picture
for me - zero emissions source, zero emissions use.
Darryl McMahon
From: "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Base load pollution and charging EVs
Date sent: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:41:08 -0500
> Matt, See my comments below. Mark T.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:28 PM
> Subject: Base load pollution and charging EVs
>
>
> > The usual comparisons that I have read of EV 'emissions' versus
> > fossil-fuelled vehicles, considering the source of the electricity, seem
> to
> > simply compare on the basis of the mix of electricity generation plant in
> a
> > region or country and the *average* pollution (e.g. grams of CO2 per kWh)
> > associated with each.
> >
> > While obviously having to make a weighted sum corresponding to the
> different
> > generating fuels used, does anyone know of a publication, or just raw
> > figures, for base load versus peak power generation? I'm assuming that
> the
> > base load plant from which our EVs draw most of their power (can) operate
> > more efficiently while creating less pollution than a peak plant?
>
> I've been looking for these figures myself. I have not found it nicely
> organized in a single package. The numbers will vary from utility to
> utitliy and from time to time. Utilities have very different mixes of base,
> intermediate and peak generating capacity. For example, base load is
> composed of more hydro in the northwest, more coal in the northeast, and
> more natural gas in Texas and California. Also the season and maintenance
> schedules alter the baseload mix.
>
> >
> > Another way to ask the question is how do base load power station
> emissions
> > compare to peak generating plant?
>
> Sometimes peaking plants are the oldest, most inefficient, dirtiest plants,
> so utilities use them only when necessary for peak loads. However, as
> previously mentioned: (From: "steve erlsten"): "In the USA, most base load
> is carried by coal-fired powerplants, and most peaking power is provided by
> natural gas. Natural gas is cleaner than coal, and the emissions from
> peaking power are almost always lower than emissions from base load power."
> On the other hand, in specific areas like the northwest, abundant hydropower
> probably makes base load cleaner.
>
> >
> > My supposition is that the overall reductions in most pollutants that are
> > oft quoted from using EVs may actually be greater if we were to only
> > consider base load plant? (For those countries like the UK that use quite
> a
> > mix of sources)
>
> Maybe in other countries, but generally not in the USA.
>
> >
> > Another related question is would the widespread use of EVs (and hence
> > higher power consumption overnight) allow more efficient use of base load
> > plant that could mean no net increase in fuel used or emissions created,
> > whether or not peak time energy exporting from vehicles is employed. I
> > think that the industry refer to this as "system demand factor" - less
> > variability between base load periods and peak periods.
>
> Any time power is used it increases fuel usage (more gas or coal burned,
> more uranium reacted, more water through the turbine, etc). Off-peak EV
> charging tends to use more efficient and less expensive resources (but not
> necessarily cleaner ones). Utilities like off-peak charging because it
> levels the load. A level load means they can operate their plants with less
> variation and thus more efficiently. The most efficient plants are more
> difficult to cut-back and crank-up, so less load variation means more of
> these efficeint plants may be used to supply the load.
> >
> > Has _base load_ capacity in a region been compared to the requirements for
> > widespread EV charging overnight?
>
> Here is an old report that touches on this subject for southern California:
> http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/96-EV+EMISSIONS.PDF
>
> >
> > A couple of threads touched on this briefly:
> > www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg04094.html
> > www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg04435.html
> >
> > Matt
> > 1999 Peugeot Scoot'Elec 21,000km
> >
>
> Here are some data points I've gathered from the internet comparing
> emissions:
>
> (view with fixed width font)
>
> all emissions in grams/mile traveled
>
> Energy Source CO2 NOx SO2 Hydrocarbons CO Particulate
> ------------- --- --- --- ------------ -- -----------
> Ontario Coal Plants 341.0 .9 1.5 ---- --- ----
> New Coal Plant 245.0 .06 .08 ---- --- ----
> New Gas Plant 130.0 .07 0.0 ---- --- ----
> Gasoline (Fleet avg)
> (pump to wheel) 416.0 1.4 --- 2.8 20.9 ----
> Tier 2 Standard --- .07 --- .09 2.4 0.01
> SULEV Standard --- .02 --- .01 1.0 0.01
> Gasoline Production
> (ground to pump) --- .06 .06 .13 --- ----
> Prius (ground to wheel)--- .08 .06 .14 1.0 0.01
>
>
> The power plant data assumes an EV energy usage of 350 wh/mile. The
> "Gasoline" data is for the USA fleet average at 21.5 mpg. I don't think
> these numbers include extraction, transportation, or processing of the raw
> resources. CO2 emissions from ICE is inversely proportional to mpg, so
> considering a Prius, with over twice the mpg of the USA fleet average, Prius
> CO2 emissions are less than EV powered by coal. SO2 will always be higher
> for coal, and hydrocarbons higher for gasoline. Prius numbers are the sum
> of the "SULEV" and "Gasoline Production" lines, to get total emissions from
> ground to wheel. Gasoline Production numbers are based on a 50 mpg vehicle
> (i.e. the Prius) I'd say the "EV with coal" vs. "Prius with gasoline"
> emissions are very similar. Mark T.
>
>
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