EV Digest 3472
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: [Fwd: Re: Fw: Two 8" vs 1 9"...Zombie Gets a BIG motor!]
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Two 8" vs 1 9"...Zombie Gets a BIG motor!
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: The Myth Of Automobile Battery Recycling
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT Honda Ad you won't believe it! giant mouse trap
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Insight IMA 70kW Hack?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Two 8" vs 1 9"...Zombie Gets a BIG motor! Fixed
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Boy, is my pack weird...
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Prius EV mode (was PR rant (Escape hybrid) and a little Prius experience)
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Boy, is my pack weird...
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Boy, is my pack weird...
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Power Plants and Excess Capacity
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Power Plants and Excess Capacity
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: WAY OT, clean diesel with a comment on NiCads
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Boy, is my pack weird...
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> If you look at how well Otmar's car performs with two motors, (and Rich Brown's car
> with
> two motors) it becomes pretty clear that this
> approach has merit.
Hey Bill, just curious...any reason you left White Zombie out of this part? As the
current
record holder for the SC/B class, and having accomplished it with the dual motor,
series-parallel thing, and gee, with the above subject title and all....well, it just
seems odd it was left out :-)
I agree with Bill, that this setup has merit...so do the poor gas car guys my car
toasts
at the strip. They can't get over my 1.81 60 ft. times! I will definitely be
experimenting
more with this setup before the motors are pulled, that's for sure.
On the other hand, Rudman's and Berube's ideas are valid as well, and, I still have not
been able to match the performance of when the car was , yes, lighter and at higher
voltage, but also yes, when it had a single larger motor. I like trying new things
out...it's what makes electric drag racing fun. I'm going to go into this big, 12 inch
motor thing full blown, as I usually do, and we'll just have to wait and see how it
works
out. It won't happen over night, so there's a lot more racing with twin eights in the
Zombie's future!
I admire all of my fellow racer's designs, ideas, and their machines. Many types have
proven successful, the point of my last post about 'the time slips show the results'.
The
important thing, is for us all to keep a positive attitude towards each other, and to
have
fun!
See Ya ...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
'Plasma Boy Racing...we blow stuff up, so you don't have to!'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roger, Since you covered it all so well I have very little to
say. Of course little is relative... :-)
I think someone mentioned this before, but this focus on torque seems
useless. Change your gear ratio and your torque changes. The target
for drag racing is this:
1) enough axle torque off the line to hold traction limit
2) maintain that until you hit battery power limit
3) hold battery power limit until you get to the end of the track
4) do all this as efficiently as possible.
What is the figure of merit of a EV drag racing system?
How can we compare a dual motor electrically shifted one vs a single
motor system when the are both single ratio? I don't know, but it
needs to be something that compares starting to ending HP over a
certain speed ratio or something like that.
btw, one should also note that a mechanically shifted single motor vs
a single ratio dual motor is a whole different animal and has many
more benefits than a single ratio single motor setup.
Also it should be mentioned that the battery power comes into it. If
you have a 2000 amp controller, but your batteries are limited to 600
amps, then series parallel shifting will probably be a liability. But
if your batteries can handle 1200 amps it might help a lot, and if
they can handle 2000 amps then you'd probably be quicker with two
controllers each battery limited at 1000 amps.
Overall the controller is just acting like a transmission. The higher
the current and voltage that the controller handles, the wider the
range of the controller as a transmission. As with a mechanical
transmission, if you put another one downstream of it (electrical
series parallel shifting in this case) you can increase the range of
the original transmission. But as with mechanical transmissions there
are drawbacks with too many gears, weight and time delays. Anyone
want a 12 speed Viper? I thought not...
The more I think about it, the more I realize that there are so many
variables that it's going to be hard to define just when the single
motor DC system will be better. In the end the real factor of money
spent becomes a big issue (as Bill Dube' so wisely stated)
At 6:24 PM -0700 4-16-04, Roger Stockton wrote:
neglecting the fact that when the guy with stock 8's gets his ass
whupped by a prepped 9", he's going to go away and prep his 8's and
come back and whup the 9" guys ass all over again. ;^>
Now that's racing! :-)
At 6:24 PM -0700 4-16-04, Roger Stockton wrote:
On Friday, April 16, 2004 2:22 PM, Rich Rudman
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The point is the Zillas are programmed to shift at 1/2 the peak
amps. I think we need to be able to adjust thsi point depending
on gearing, and pack voltages.
The perfect shift spot is not the same on all setups.
This sounds plausible, although I haven't heard of anyone actually
testing for the best series-parallel shift spot... and I rather
suspect that Otmar did a bit of his own testing and had some
(probably good) reason for choosing the shift point he did (and/or
for not making it user configurable).
The point really is that the 'Zilla is just one way to achieve
series-parallel switching, and just because its shift point may not
yet be optimal for a particular vehicle doesn't mean series-parallel
switching in general (or with a 'Zilla) isn't a good idea. Might
equally as well write off every motor that doesn't come stock with
adjustable brush rigging or brush timing optimised for your
application ;^>
Snip ..............
> In auto mode it won't shift until the AMP are 1/2 the peak,
and your foot is floored.
OK. Let's think about this a bit. Why did Otmar chose to shift at
1/2 the peak amps (and are we talking battery or motor amps,
anyway?)?
Let's assume it is *motor* amps that determine the shift point. When
the motor amps drop to 600A in series mode, and the controller shifts
to parallel, the motor amps stay the *same* provided there is enough
battery voltage available to push the controller back into current
limit. RPM doesn't change instantaneously, so there is no stair step
in power; the shift to parallel just makes full pack voltage
available to each motor so that they can continue to build speed
while amps/torque continues to fall off.
I know Otmar is trying to follow this thread, so perhaps if I haven't
put him to sleep already he can chime in with a proper explanation of
how/why the 'Zilla implements series-parallel shifting...
Pretty much just as you said. I first had the shifting happen at a
certain adjustable RPM, but that's inefficient on the street and does
not compensate for battery temperature and state of charge, so I
devised the auto shift and left the option of a manual shift for
those who want to experiment.
When the Hairball is set to Autoshift mode it works like this:
It starts in series mode for maximum torque and for low controller
current in regular driving. Then when you put the pedal to the metal
the Hairball starts to pay attention.
In order to start a shift to parallel, the first requirement is that
the controller is at 100% duty cycle. (this is the right side of the
mountains shown below) This means the controller is full on the
battery amps equal the motor amps. If the controller is still acting
as a transmission then there would be no reason to switch the motors
yet since the resulting power would be less after the shift.
At this time, the motor and battery amps are dropping as the vehicle speeds up.
A simple way to view the HP to RPM curve of a series motor in a EV is
to imagine it as a upside down V. The upramp of the curve is the
controller in current limit, the downslope on the far side is when
the controller is full on and the motor BEMF is limiting power.
In order to maximize the power under the curve, I believe you want to
shift when the falling series curve of motor power vs rpm crosses the
rising curve of the motors in parallel. This turns out to be when the
series mode current is half of what is available after the shift.
Here's a bit of ASCII art, let's see if I can do this.
View with fixed width font like Courier.
| /\ / \
| / \ / \
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
^ ^ ^ ^ RPM ^
| | | | |
| | | | | BEMF limited, 100% on falling slope
| | | |
| | | | Parallel mode peak HP.
| | |
| | | Shift point (~ 50 mph in my car)
| |
| | Series mode peak HP
|
| Controller in current limit on upslope of curve
By the way, it's interesting to note that these curves are pretty
much the same as the power curves seen when shifting a mechanical
transmission.
Just FYI here are the same curves when the battery current limit is
lower than the motor current limit. The lower the battery current,
the less important the actual shift point timing becomes.
|
| ____ _________
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Apr 2004 at 8:28, Marvin Campbell wrote:
> This page was recently brought to my attention:
>
> http://www.fish.com/~jym/greenpeace/myth-of-battery-recycling.html
>
I first read about this roughly 10 years ago, and posted a note about it on
this list then. It's a serious problem, though not often reported - most US
news media don't concern themselves much with overseas environmental issues.
How do we, as EV enthusiasts, approach it? The only response I can suggest
is to trade only with battery companies that either do their own lead
recycling in properly maintained facilities, or which can prove that their
lead comes from recyclers that adhere to appropriate disposal and worker
protection regimes.
This means that something besides "what does it cost" and "how well does it
work" should go into one's battery purchasing decision. It almost certainly
means that (for example) cheap Chinese gel batteries may not be a defensible
choice for scooter users who may find themselves challenged by an
environmentally conscious public on this issue.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Twenty years ago, one out of every six federal tax dollars was
generated by a corporation. That has now fallen to about one out
of every 10.
-- Arianna Huffington, Salon Magazine
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"This is a creative HONDA commercial for the UK market..."
http://www.daboyz.org/honda/
My brother recommended this and it's as good as Danny says. One look
at the URL and I wrote back asking if he really sent it. It's 6 megs
which took 30 minutes to get at 33 kbps, but I'm usually up late
anyway.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also have an insight that I would like to increase
the performance of. I have either just add more
battries and modify the controller/computer so that it
would assist more as i am cursing at 75-80MPH thus
getting even better gas milage or possibly even
putting in another motor to drive all electric for the
low speed trips to the store. Just for experiment i
put 750 lbs of redi crete on the hatch deck and drove
around for one tank full only got little less millage
and still stopped and handled about the same. I did
this to see what would be the weight effect of a set
of orbitals to increase the amount of power available
and though it was a lttle "light" in the front and did
not accelerate quite as fast it was still acceptable.
it certianly handled better than the VW that presently
has the orbitals. I also have the 8"ADC and the curtis
that are in the bug that i might trade for a
controller that was under my control rather than
trying to use the one honda put in the car. First it
would have to be hacked and i knoe nothing about how
to do that and second by using a separate controller
and battery pac the car wou still be restorable to the
original when I want to sell it. any way, if there
are others with an Insight and would like to share
ideas as to how we could improve this already
wonderful car i am interested.
respond here or e-mail me direct
thanks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I once heard that some motor guru though that the
> Honda IMA motor
> would be capable of far more than 10kW, Is there any
> truth to it?
>
> The IMA is rated at 10kW / 144v = ~70Amps from the
> 6.5Ah cells
> which means the "weak link" is the batteries which
> are already
> pushing hard at over 10C. So extra batteries would
> be needed,
> something like 132Lbs worth of 12*13Ah Hawkers
> Genesis perhaps.
>
> I think the prefered method would be to install a
> set of
> contactors at the IMA motor to disconnect it from
> the stock
> controller and connect it to an "alternate"
> controler. I think the
> motor is a three phase brushless AC type, a 3P2T
> relay might work.
> A WOT switch could control the relay and external
> controller.
> There would most likely be some "unhappy hardware"
> ie. CELs from
> the Motor Controler, But I can live with those kinds
> or problems.
>
> 1. So, what type of controller would be required to
> push the IMA?
> 140A=20kW, 210A=30kW, 280A=40kW, 350A=50kW,
> 420A=60kW, 490A=70kW.
>
> 2. Is there a good way to determine just how far the
> IMA could
> be driven without burning out the stationary stator
> coils?
> Anyone know the Length, Guage, or Resistance of the
> coils?
>
> 3. Would the IMA's "position sensors" need to be
> hijacked along
> with the main power contacts in order to properly
> drive the motor?
>
> This type of modification would obviousely void all
> your warrenties,
> and might very well burn out the IMA motor, almost
> totally disabling
> the whole car. You could still drive it without the
> IMA, but would
> be without any 12v accessory power from the IMA's
> Alternator functions.
>
> BUT it sure would be a kick in the pants to get a
> few seconds worth
> of Super-IMA-Boost in the neighborhood of 70kW
> (doubling stock power).
>
> If we can determine a "safe" upper power limit I
> would be willing
> to put my own Insight "under the knife" to see what
> happens.
>
> L8r
> Ryan (2000, 100K, 50.5LMPG)
>
> PS. Maybe THAT would teach me to keep the peddle off
> the floor.
>
> PPS. Gotta give the Insight some satisfaction, what
> with all the
> "Prius EV-Mode Love Joy"(TM) going arround these
> days.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Resent with fixed ascii art....
Thanks Roger, Since you covered it all so well I have very little to
say. Of course little is relative... :-)
I think someone mentioned this before, but this focus on torque seems
useless. Change your gear ratio and your torque changes. The target
for drag racing is this:
1) enough axle torque off the line to hold traction limit
2) maintain that until you hit battery power limit
3) hold battery power limit until you get to the end of the track
4) do all this as efficiently as possible.
What is the figure of merit of a EV drag racing system?
How can we compare a dual motor electrically shifted one vs a single
motor system when the are both single ratio? I don't know, but it
needs to be something that compares starting to ending HP over a
certain speed ratio or something like that.
btw, one should also note that a mechanically shifted single motor vs
a single ratio dual motor is a whole different animal and has many
more benefits than a single ratio single motor setup.
Also it should be mentioned that the battery power comes into it. If
you have a 2000 amp controller, but your batteries are limited to 600
amps, then series parallel shifting will probably be a liability. But
if your batteries can handle 1200 amps it might help a lot, and if
they can handle 2000 amps then you'd probably be quicker with two
controllers each battery limited at 1000 amps.
Overall the controller is just acting like a transmission. The higher
the current and voltage that the controller handles, the wider the
range of the controller as a transmission. As with a mechanical
transmission, if you put another one downstream of it (electrical
series parallel shifting in this case) you can increase the range of
the original transmission. But as with mechanical transmissions there
are drawbacks with too many gears, weight and time delays. Anyone
want a 12 speed Viper? I thought not...
The more I think about it, the more I realize that there are so many
variables that it's going to be hard to define just when the single
motor DC system will be better. In the end the real factor of money
spent becomes a big issue (as Bill Dube' so wisely stated)
At 6:24 PM -0700 4-16-04, Roger Stockton wrote:
neglecting the fact that when the guy with stock 8's gets his ass
whupped by a prepped 9", he's going to go away and prep his 8's and
come back and whup the 9" guys ass all over again. ;^>
Now that's racing! :-)
At 6:24 PM -0700 4-16-04, Roger Stockton wrote:
On Friday, April 16, 2004 2:22 PM, Rich Rudman
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The point is the Zillas are programmed to shift at 1/2 the peak
amps. I think we need to be able to adjust thsi point depending
on gearing, and pack voltages.
The perfect shift spot is not the same on all setups.
This sounds plausible, although I haven't heard of anyone actually
testing for the best series-parallel shift spot... and I rather
suspect that Otmar did a bit of his own testing and had some
(probably good) reason for choosing the shift point he did (and/or
for not making it user configurable).
The point really is that the 'Zilla is just one way to achieve
series-parallel switching, and just because its shift point may not
yet be optimal for a particular vehicle doesn't mean series-parallel
switching in general (or with a 'Zilla) isn't a good idea. Might
equally as well write off every motor that doesn't come stock with
adjustable brush rigging or brush timing optimised for your
application ;^>
Snip ..............
> In auto mode it won't shift until the AMP are 1/2 the peak,
and your foot is floored.
OK. Let's think about this a bit. Why did Otmar chose to shift at
1/2 the peak amps (and are we talking battery or motor amps,
anyway?)?
Let's assume it is *motor* amps that determine the shift point. When
the motor amps drop to 600A in series mode, and the controller shifts
to parallel, the motor amps stay the *same* provided there is enough
battery voltage available to push the controller back into current
limit. RPM doesn't change instantaneously, so there is no stair step
in power; the shift to parallel just makes full pack voltage
available to each motor so that they can continue to build speed
while amps/torque continues to fall off.
I know Otmar is trying to follow this thread, so perhaps if I haven't
put him to sleep already he can chime in with a proper explanation of
how/why the 'Zilla implements series-parallel shifting...
Pretty much just as you said. I first had the shifting happen at a
certain adjustable RPM, but that's inefficient on the street and does
not compensate for battery temperature and state of charge, so I
devised the auto shift and left the option of a manual shift for
those who want to experiment.
When the Hairball is set to Autoshift mode it works like this:
It starts in series mode for maximum torque and for low controller
current in regular driving. Then when you put the pedal to the metal
the Hairball starts to pay attention.
In order to start a shift to parallel, the first requirement is that
the controller is at 100% duty cycle. (this is the right side of the
mountains shown below) This means the controller is full on the
battery amps equal the motor amps. If the controller is still acting
as a transmission then there would be no reason to switch the motors
yet since the resulting power would be less after the shift.
At this time, the motor and battery amps are dropping as the vehicle speeds up.
A simple way to view the HP to RPM curve of a series motor in a EV is
to imagine it as a upside down V. The upramp of the curve is the
controller in current limit, the downslope on the far side is when
the controller is full on and the motor BEMF is limiting power.
In order to maximize the power under the curve, I believe you want to
shift when the falling series curve of motor power vs rpm crosses the
rising curve of the motors in parallel. This turns out to be when the
series mode current is half of what is available after the shift.
Here's a bit of ASCII art, let's see if I can do this.
View with fixed width font like Courier.
| /\ / \
| / \ / \
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
^ ^ ^ ^ RPM ^
| | | | |
| | | | | BEMF limited, 100% on falling slope
| | | |
| | | | Parallel mode peak HP.
| | |
| | | Shift point (~ 50 mph in my car)
| |
| | Series mode peak HP
|
| Controller in current limit on upslope of curve
By the way, it's interesting to note that these curves are pretty
much the same as the power curves seen when shifting a mechanical
transmission.
Just FYI here are the same curves when the battery current limit is
lower than the motor current limit. The lower the battery current,
the less important the actual shift point timing becomes.
|
| ____ _________
| / \ / \
H | / /\ \
P | / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
| / / \ \
|// \ \
______________________________________________
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, first off: I'd really love to know who keeps switching my pack
around. On monday I had batteries that could not handle 12 amps for 45
minutes. Now these same batteries will handle 40 amps for 30 minutes....
And still be in the low 11's. True it was in the 30-40's on Monday and
is now in the warm 70's. Does temp make *that* much of a difference?
I decided to put the pack back under the car and charge it up. My
thought was to charge it using the MC then discharge it using the heat
system (3,000 watts).
In charging I noticed something *very* interesting: At 375 volts, some
batteries were sitting down at 14 volts and a few were at 16.5 volts.
Oooohkay; I need battery regulators. How badly are these batteries
getting baked at this point? Would low charging currents keep batteries
from being cooked?
I'm beginning to wonder: The on-board charger will only charge at about
2 amps. The MC does it at 18. The pack blew out not while I was using
the Dolphin, but about a month after I started using the MC. Possibly I
dried out some batteries because they were going sky-high while the
laggards never got fully charged.
The big question about regulators is this: When the battery gets to 15
volts or whatever, does the regulator then have to bypass *all* of the
current around the battery in question? IE: Do I have to wire out cables
that can handle 20 amps (12 gauge at least) and do the regs have to each
be able to dissapate 18 amps *15 volts (like close to 300 watts of heat)
That's a halogen lamp. Each. How the heck does one dissapate that amount
of heat?
I'll take 50 regulators. But either they need to be small enough to fit
in two square inches of space or they have to be wired into a *very*
securely constructed aux connector. I'm concerned about this one; there
is no way I can fit 20 amp relays in the battery compartment so this
connection would have to be un-isolated. With 50 twelve gauge wires in
some sort of massive conduit. With up to 300 volts of potential and six
hundred if the wrong short happened anywhere.
Um... Help!
Chris
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben,
This has been discussed in great details on Prius
groups. The general thinking is that Toyota should
not void the warranty for this mod since it is a
built-in feature. Some reported that even with nitrox
mods clearly visible under the hood, Toyota still
honors its warranty.
This feature is enabled on European and Japanese
Prius. But, I think only the US Prius has a 10 year
100,000 warranty on its battery pack. Probably the EV
Mode button was removed to extend battery life. And,
certainly, it is possible the the ECU might log EV
mode usage.
The bottom line is that no one knows if Toyota would
care to void its warranty for the small number of EV
mode mods. But, for its usefulness alone, I am
willing to take this risk.
Ed Ang
--- Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I realize I'm going back in time by pulling up this
> post, but I'm
> curious about the Prius' EV-mode. This simple
> solution that involves
> no evidence is indeed an attractive solution (though
> alligator clips
> are a little sketchy), but I have to wonder....does
> anyone know if the
> ECU logs EV-mode use that someone working on a
> broken one could detect?
> The idea of EV mode sure is tempting, but voiding
> warranty on a
> $20,000+ piece of equipment is not. Granted, Toyota
> built the feature
> into the car, so obviously it's safe, but would they
> deny warranty
> service to North American users simply because they
> activated it,
> considering it's not actually a standard feature?
> However, if evidence of the switch could easily be
> removed...
>
> -Ben
>
>
> On Apr 8, 2004, at 5:12 PM, Edward Ang wrote:
>
> > Actually, it could be done even more simpler than
> > shown on the document.
> >
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Temperature makes that much difference. That's one reason why I hate
lead.
Seth
On Apr 17, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Ok, first off: I'd really love to know who keeps switching my pack
around. On monday I had batteries that could not handle 12 amps for 45
minutes. Now these same batteries will handle 40 amps for 30
minutes....
And still be in the low 11's. True it was in the 30-40's on Monday and
is now in the warm 70's. Does temp make *that* much of a difference?
I decided to put the pack back under the car and charge it up. My
thought was to charge it using the MC then discharge it using the heat
system (3,000 watts).
In charging I noticed something *very* interesting: At 375 volts, some
batteries were sitting down at 14 volts and a few were at 16.5 volts.
Oooohkay; I need battery regulators. How badly are these batteries
getting baked at this point? Would low charging currents keep
batteries from being cooked?
I'm beginning to wonder: The on-board charger will only charge at
about 2 amps. The MC does it at 18. The pack blew out not while I was
using the Dolphin, but about a month after I started using the MC.
Possibly I dried out some batteries because they were going sky-high
while the laggards never got fully charged.
The big question about regulators is this: When the battery gets to 15
volts or whatever, does the regulator then have to bypass *all* of the
current around the battery in question? IE: Do I have to wire out
cables that can handle 20 amps (12 gauge at least) and do the regs
have to each be able to dissapate 18 amps *15 volts (like close to 300
watts of heat)
That's a halogen lamp. Each. How the heck does one dissapate that
amount of heat?
I'll take 50 regulators. But either they need to be small enough to
fit in two square inches of space or they have to be wired into a
*very* securely constructed aux connector. I'm concerned about this
one; there is no way I can fit 20 amp relays in the battery
compartment so this connection would have to be un-isolated. With 50
twelve gauge wires in some sort of massive conduit. With up to 300
volts of potential and six hundred if the wrong short happened
anywhere.
Um... Help!
Chris
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, if it turns out that I dropped this pack because it was cold I am
going to be very upset :-)
That said, I've cut the charge down to the Dolphin's chargers. 2 amps
and now batteries that were reading 16+ volts under charge are now
reading more rational numbers like 14.7. The difference in battery level
between the highest and lowest (that I can get to) is now about a volt
or so (some are in the 13's, some in the 14's)
Hm. However I will say that I checked the temps on the batteries at
16-17 volts and they were not even warm. Does that make sense? Is the
battery gassing when it is not warm to the touch (positive and neg
terminals and the top were cool)
So far though I think I have put 16 amps into the pack after replacing
two batteries and overall pack voltage is about 350. This is good, since
the pack was down 12 amps and those 16 are "corrected" amps from the
E-meter (takes into account battery efficiency on the upside, actual on
the downside)
Getting there.
Chris
Seth wrote:
Temperature makes that much difference. That's one reason why I hate lead.
Seth
On Apr 17, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Ok, first off: I'd really love to know who keeps switching my pack
around. On monday I had batteries that could not handle 12 amps for 45
minutes. Now these same batteries will handle 40 amps for 30 minutes....
And still be in the low 11's. True it was in the 30-40's on Monday and
is now in the warm 70's. Does temp make *that* much of a difference?
I decided to put the pack back under the car and charge it up. My
thought was to charge it using the MC then discharge it using the heat
system (3,000 watts).
In charging I noticed something *very* interesting: At 375 volts, some
batteries were sitting down at 14 volts and a few were at 16.5 volts.
Oooohkay; I need battery regulators. How badly are these batteries
getting baked at this point? Would low charging currents keep
batteries from being cooked?
I'm beginning to wonder: The on-board charger will only charge at
about 2 amps. The MC does it at 18. The pack blew out not while I was
using the Dolphin, but about a month after I started using the MC.
Possibly I dried out some batteries because they were going sky-high
while the laggards never got fully charged.
The big question about regulators is this: When the battery gets to 15
volts or whatever, does the regulator then have to bypass *all* of the
current around the battery in question? IE: Do I have to wire out
cables that can handle 20 amps (12 gauge at least) and do the regs
have to each be able to dissapate 18 amps *15 volts (like close to 300
watts of heat)
That's a halogen lamp. Each. How the heck does one dissapate that
amount of heat?
I'll take 50 regulators. But either they need to be small enough to
fit in two square inches of space or they have to be wired into a
*very* securely constructed aux connector. I'm concerned about this
one; there is no way I can fit 20 amp relays in the battery
compartment so this connection would have to be un-isolated. With 50
twelve gauge wires in some sort of massive conduit. With up to 300
volts of potential and six hundred if the wrong short happened anywhere.
Um... Help!
Chris
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"I'd like to know if I'm actually hurting the environment here, but I
don't know where to get the figures."
Dept. of Energy is a good place to start
"All that aside, my real issue is something said on the "cleaner than an
EV" thread, I believe. Someone said that the less load on the power
plant, the less fuel burned, or the less uranium reacted. I'm having
trouble understanding how this can be the case.
"Certainly the coal will burn at its prescribed rate and produce a given
amount of heat, regardless of the load on the generator. I *can* see
that the steam produced will not lose as much energy on its trip around
the generator circuit, since it doesn't have to "push as hard" on the
generator, and therefore won't be able to absorb as much heat from the
coal fire as if it had been cooled pushing a loaded generator. I can
guess that someone will therefore try to burn a little less coal. But
surely when I turn off my lights the coal doesn't slow down its burning
or produce less heat; in fact, a little more of the coal fire's heat
will be wasted to the atmosphere instead of going to the steam."
Well, yes, you turn off your charger and that energy is still being
produced. The local line voltage goes up a tad, but no one notices
because it's so small a difference. When a lot of customers change
their load on the grid, the Voltage change is noticed by the
generating plant and they lower the burning rate, probably by reducing
the air supply. More rapid reaction comes by adjusting the steam valve
and letting the back pressure go up.
There are dozens of boilers in a plant and dozens of plants on the
grid. They can fine tune the supply to a small fraction of a percent
easily. The heat isn't lost because they will just have higher steam
pressure for a few minutes until the coal feed is reduced.
"The upshot of this line of reasoning is that charging during off-peak
hours could be environmentally conscious. They're probably burning
enough coal to provide what they think they're peak load at any given
moment will be -- so when a bunch of people turn on the lights, they
don't get dim lights. My charging will just take a little of that
excess, and nobody gets hurt. Unless they all decide to turn the lights
on at the same time.
You can't beat the systems reaction time unless the system is
overloaded. The providers are more likely to get overloads now because
the accountants have determined that the excess capacity of forty
years ago increases their equity and therefore, price/earnings ratio.
Don't worry about throttling the supply; they have that worked out.
Since the current flow is lower at night, the line losses are much
lower. Night capacity and efficiency is optimum for the system when
loads become more constant and more efficient base load is doing the
work.
While day workers getting home and all turning on the stove at about
the same time is a real consideration, that's nothing compared to the
toilet flushing at commercial breaks. A fifty year old high Voltage
cable is safer than a fifty year old water pipe.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Plants don't burn fuel at a constant rate. The rate is automatically
controlled to
match the demand for power. This is true regardless of plant type. In a
coal-
fired plant the amount of coal fed to the boilers is automatically adjusted
as
needed.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:12 PM
Subject: Power Plants and Excess Capacity
Someone said that the less load on the power
> plant, the less fuel burned, or the less uranium reacted. I'm having
> trouble understanding how this can be the case.
>
> Certainly the coal will burn at its prescribed rate and produce a given
> amount of heat, regardless of the load on the generator. I *can* see
> that the steam produced will not lose as much energy on its trip around
> the generator circuit, since it doesn't have to "push as hard" on the
> generator, and therefore won't be able to absorb as much heat from the
> coal fire as if it had been cooled pushing a loaded generator. I can
> guess that someone will therefore try to burn a little less coal. But
> surely when I turn off my lights the coal doesn't slow down its burning
> or produce less heat; in fact, a little more of the coal fire's heat
> will be wasted to the atmosphere instead of going to the steam.
>
> The upshot of this line of reasoning is that charging during off-peak
> hours could be environmentally conscious. They're probably burning
> enough coal to provide what they think they're peak load at any given
> moment will be -- so when a bunch of people turn on the lights, they
> don't get dim lights. My charging will just take a little of that
> excess, and nobody gets hurt. Unless they all decide to turn the lights
> on at the same time.
>
> Judebert
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just for the record, diesel can be cleaned up. Diesel equipment is used in
underground construction where anything else besides electric is prohibited.
Same with indoor areas. The equipment is standard construction equipment,
but is fueled with a low or no sulfer diesel and is equipped with an
"exhaust scrubber", essentially a type of catalytic converter. I have stood
3 feet from the exhaust (or closer) with instruments to measure the
emissions and found them to be extremely low. However, to my knowledge,
this has never been done for above ground diesels, just because it has never
been required. Therefore, current diesels (trucks, buses, construction
equipment, generators, etc.) are very smelly, gross polluters. BUT THEY
DON'T HAVE TO BE!
If the Europeans bring over some of the new diesel cars that are smooth and
quiet, and meet current emission standards, maybe public perception will
change. But until then, they will associate diesels with the big trucks and
buses because that is all they have ever been exposed to.
By the way, EV size NiCads are not big polluters because they are recyled
and the batteries rebuilt, unlike the small disposable NiCads that end up in
landfills and can cause some bad contamination.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, MD
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: WAY OT, biodiesel exhaust was Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric
Cars, diesel hybrid
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT)
As a physician (not affiliated in any way with the
American Lung Association), let me weigh in here. I
suspect the reason the ALA was dismissive of diesel
and even biodiesel, has everything to do with
carcinogenic exhaust. For example, in Los Angeles
county, diesel exhaust is the single largest proven
source of environmental carcinogens the average
resident gets exposed to. It accounts for 70% of all
airborne carcinogens. That's huge and I doubt it's
much different in the rest of the country. As far as
I know, even though biodiesel exhaust smells better,
it still has the many of the proven carcinogens in it,
more of some, less of others (although I suspect there
probably is an overall reduction since it is
inherently sulfur free). There is a lot of
contradictory research out there which may be why the
ALA is less than enthusiastic about biodiesel. For
example, in some studies, it has higher particulate
matter emissions, others less. Same story with a lot
of the rest of the pollutants. I've asked questions
about it every time I get a chance. My impression is
biodiesel fans are much more concerned with decreasing
our reliance on fossil fuels than reducing
carcinogenic pollutants ... an undisputed advantage
for biodiesel. Micro, and nano particles with
carcinogenic material are particularly hazardous to
your health and nano-particles are nearly impossible
to filter out, since many are formed AFTER the exhaust
leaves the tailpipe.
Back OT, I'll take the batteries (preferably not lead
or Ni-Cad) thanks.
-Sam
_________________________________________________________________
From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring
Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Set your dolphin to ~13.62 V per module and float it all week. That
will be a good start towards getting them more equal. After you have
done this, then you can start to think of the pack as charged.
Seth
On Apr 17, 2004, at 5:54 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Well, if it turns out that I dropped this pack because it was cold I
am going to be very upset :-)
That said, I've cut the charge down to the Dolphin's chargers. 2 amps
and now batteries that were reading 16+ volts under charge are now
reading more rational numbers like 14.7. The difference in battery
level between the highest and lowest (that I can get to) is now about
a volt or so (some are in the 13's, some in the 14's)
Hm. However I will say that I checked the temps on the batteries at
16-17 volts and they were not even warm. Does that make sense? Is the
battery gassing when it is not warm to the touch (positive and neg
terminals and the top were cool)
So far though I think I have put 16 amps into the pack after replacing
two batteries and overall pack voltage is about 350. This is good,
since the pack was down 12 amps and those 16 are "corrected" amps from
the E-meter (takes into account battery efficiency on the upside,
actual on the downside)
Getting there.
Chris
Seth wrote:
Temperature makes that much difference. That's one reason why I hate
lead.
Seth
On Apr 17, 2004, at 4:32 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Ok, first off: I'd really love to know who keeps switching my pack
around. On monday I had batteries that could not handle 12 amps for
45 minutes. Now these same batteries will handle 40 amps for 30
minutes....
And still be in the low 11's. True it was in the 30-40's on Monday
and is now in the warm 70's. Does temp make *that* much of a
difference?
I decided to put the pack back under the car and charge it up. My
thought was to charge it using the MC then discharge it using the
heat system (3,000 watts).
In charging I noticed something *very* interesting: At 375 volts,
some batteries were sitting down at 14 volts and a few were at 16.5
volts. Oooohkay; I need battery regulators. How badly are these
batteries getting baked at this point? Would low charging currents
keep batteries from being cooked?
I'm beginning to wonder: The on-board charger will only charge at
about 2 amps. The MC does it at 18. The pack blew out not while I
was using the Dolphin, but about a month after I started using the
MC. Possibly I dried out some batteries because they were going
sky-high while the laggards never got fully charged.
The big question about regulators is this: When the battery gets to
15 volts or whatever, does the regulator then have to bypass *all*
of the current around the battery in question? IE: Do I have to wire
out cables that can handle 20 amps (12 gauge at least) and do the
regs have to each be able to dissapate 18 amps *15 volts (like close
to 300 watts of heat)
That's a halogen lamp. Each. How the heck does one dissapate that
amount of heat?
I'll take 50 regulators. But either they need to be small enough to
fit in two square inches of space or they have to be wired into a
*very* securely constructed aux connector. I'm concerned about this
one; there is no way I can fit 20 amp relays in the battery
compartment so this connection would have to be un-isolated. With 50
twelve gauge wires in some sort of massive conduit. With up to 300
volts of potential and six hundred if the wrong short happened
anywhere.
Um... Help!
Chris
Chris
--- End Message ---
