EV Digest 3704

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: "Runs on American Energy"
        by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Oil cooled brush motors
        by Chimer Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: GE? electric S-10
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: GE? electric S-10
        by Chimer Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Oil cooled brush motors
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: ETEK-Curtis 1204Z-Inductance?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: state Tags
        by "goodsharonwbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Oil cooled brush motors (Long)
        by Chimer Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: ETEK-Curtis 1204Z-Inductance?
        by JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) RE: "Runs on American Energy"
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Plea from Phoenix Motorcars
        by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!
        by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: ETEK-Curtis 1204Z-Inductance?
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re "Runs on American Energy"
        by Jack Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re "Runs On American Energy"on more time
        by Jack Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Plea from Phoenix Motorcars
        by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Re "Runs On American Energy"on more time
        by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Msg reply
        by "Vtikhono" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Magnesium rechargeable batteries?
        by "S. David Lalonde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!
        by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!
        by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!
        by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) RE: "Runs on American Energy"
        by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: Looking for a set of batteries in MA, what can you peoplerecommend?
        by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Ken wrote:
> >ELCTRIC
> >ELCTRIK
> >E-TRICK
> >ELTRICK
> >ELCTRNS
> >
> >Hope this helps!
> 
> Thanx, some of those just got added to my list :-)
> 
> Neon


Hey Neon,

You can add mine to your list:

GDBY GAS

Shannon

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--- Begin Message ---
Rod another item that comes to mind with respect to
the brush in oil idea is this.  We do quite a bit of
work in an old menhaden fish plant here in our area.
Most of the equipment appears to date back to Tesla,
(an exaggeration don't anybody freak out). There are
some very old motor starters that have the contactors
in an oil bath for the purpose of keeping the contacts
cool and cutting down the arc from across the line
starting of these larger motors.  Sounds like
something along the lines of what you are researching.
 Chimer


                
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- And it is no longer relevant... the seller ended the listing early. Dang. I was just starting to think that a factory S-10 might be just the thing for me as I never find the time to build the conversion I'd really like. And this one was even on the east coast. Oh well - back to lurk mode.



Chimer Clark wrote:
Yes, it is an AC drive system...
>
 --- Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2484583551



_________ Jim Coate 1970's Elec-Trak 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV http://www.eeevee.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- michael bearden wrote:
WATTABMR has two bumper stickers: "Powered by 100% American Electrons" and "Boycott OPEC-Drive Electric". I have never had a response to them.
I have some window signs (currently not in use) that would probably provoke (!) a response:
"How much do you like that big S(tupid)U(nnecessary)V(anity), now when you pull up to the gas pump?" SUV are in large bold letters, with much smaller letters in between.
Unless I put 8" letters on the car saying "ELECTRIC!" people really don't notice.
Michael B.


Mark Hanson wrote:

Since I put this slogan "Runs on American Energy" (using white 1" block lettering) on the back of my E-jeep, people have these "forehead slapping moments". Yeah, I guess you aren't buying any foriegn oil, huh? www.infionline.net/~mhanson/

Remember, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with SUVs, Humvees etc. as
vehicles. It is only wrong with *drivers* who don't use them for their
purpose. So don't aim your stickers at vehicles being just a hardware, aim it at people misusing them.


You don't bash buses which are even heavier than SUVs, don't you?
This is because they are not driven alone, but always with intent
to carry many people.

--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different

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--- Begin Message ---
Don't despair they had 8 of these trucks to sell. What
they do is list one to get your interest and then sell
them privately to interested buyers who call. They
have already listed a second one with a buy it now. I
know how they work because I purchased 3 electric
trucks from them this way about 3 months ago. Just
call the number and speak with a guy named Mo he is
located in San Diego.  They sell these fleet vehicles
for a bank in California as they come back in at the
end of the lease period.  They were pretty straight up
with me, and the trucks are located in Atlanta,
because that is where I picked up mine from. Chimer


                
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> Does anybody have experience with oil cooling a brush motor?
> I'm talking about completely submerging the motor in oil and
> sealing the end caps and using a lip seal on the motor shaft.
> What type of oil is used? What composition of brushes are prefered?
> How does brush wear/contamination affect the oil?

Interesting idea! Sounds pretty difficult, though. I'll bet someone has
tried it at one time or another; the trick would be to find data on what
they did and how well it worked out.

I wonder if any fuel pump motors literally run the motor submerged in
fuel?

I don't think the brushes would be any particular problem, as long as
they were literally submerged and had no oil/air interface (bang!). The
real problem would be that an efficient motor needs a small air gap
between rotor and stator, and the oil in this gap would cause a lot of
extra friction and drag.

There have been oil-cooled brushed motors; but the ones I know about
simply had a hollow shaft, and pumped the coolant in one end of the
shaft and back out the other end; it never touched the brushes or air
gap.
-- 
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart  814 8th Ave N  Sartell MN 56377  leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> Instead of taking a chance, why not just wind a small inductor and
> place it in series with the motor? Assume the motor inductance to
> be zero and wind an inductor to provide the minimum specified
> inductance for the controller. This can be as simple as some
> appropriate gauge solid copper wire wound around a pipe, taped
> up and the pipe removed.

I agree. There really isn't any maximum inductance (not that you're
going to reach with any reasonable sized inductor). A few 10's of
microhenries is really quite small.

No need to even remove the form; wind it on steel pipe and leave it in
place. It won't be a closed magnetic structure, so it won't saturate.

Another easy way is to simply put a several inch thick stack of old
transformer E-I laminations around one of your existing motor wires. Put
all the E's in one stack, and all the I's in another, with a thin piece
of insulator between them (an air gap is required when there is DC
flowing to avoid saturation).
-- 
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart  814 8th Ave N  Sartell MN 56377  leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I already have my tags for my S-10, it just says "48 volts",  Sharon

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of the postings for this question seem to present
oil as a combustible fluid. Oil requires a
considerably greater amount of heat to ignite than
does gasoline. As the flash point is much higher than
gasoline. What is actually required for oil to burn is
a large quantity of heat usually a spark is not enough
to cause oil to burn. That is why diesel fuel will not
burn in a spark ignited engine. The spark does not
create enough heat for the oil in a vaporized form to
burn. In order to burn fuel oil (diesel) you must have
heat which is created by the considerably higher
compression ratios one finds in a diesel engine, also
the oil must be vaporized, which is accomplished by
the fuel injection system of the diesel engine. When
the injection system is not vaporizing properly the
oil cools the cylinder in which it is forced and
overcomes the heat provided by compression causing the
engine to not run properly.  This example is for fuel
oil, the oil being described for this electric motor
application has a very high dielectric strength and
requires even greater heat to burn than does fuel oil
which is engineered to burn when vaporized properly. 
There is considerably more that could be said about
combustibility of oil, but suffice it to say that the
idea of oil submerged cooling of electric motors is
not a novel idea it is practical and used extensively
today.  When submersible pumps come into our shop that
have failed catastrophically ie. the winding has
burned terribly, the oil does not catch fire or cause
an exploding hazard.


                
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Neon John wrote:
 Instead of taking a chance, why not just wind a small inductor and
 place it in series with the motor? Assume the motor inductance to
 be zero and wind an inductor to provide the minimum specified
 inductance for the controller. This can be as simple as some
 appropriate gauge solid copper wire wound around a pipe, taped
 up and the pipe removed.
From:  Lee Hart
I agree. There really isn't any maximum inductance (not that you're
going to reach with any reasonable sized inductor). A few 10's of
microhenries is really quite small.

No need to even remove the form; wind it on steel pipe and leave it in
place. It won't be a closed magnetic structure, so it won't saturate.

Another easy way is to simply put a several inch thick stack of old
transformer E-I laminations around one of your existing motor wires. Put
all the E's in one stack, and all the I's in another, with a thin piece
of insulator between them (an air gap is required when there is DC
flowing to avoid saturation).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
======================
I do not want to take a chance, that's why I asked :-)
So what appropriate gauge solid copper wire and length would you recommand?
Coiled on what diameter pipe?
Can the wire be insulated (if naked it should not touch, so it would be easier insulated)?
If I do not find the appropriate gauge solid copper wire around here, can I use copper tubing (again what size and length would you recommand)?
Is there a better place to position the inductor (between M- and the controller or between B+ and M+) or is it irrelevant as it is in serie anyway?
Thanks for any help,
JCT

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Shannon wrote:
You can add mine to your list:

Thank you, I have added it :-)

Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>  but I was really disappointed to see how
> difficult the auto company EVs were to repair or maintain -- they are
> probably the most unmaintainable cars in history!

Speaking of which...a friend of mine has purchased two EPIC Chrysler
Minivans for around $6K.  Both 1999, less than 10K miles.  Dead NiMH
batteries.  He can't find any documentation anywhere to help him at least
figure out the charging port so that he can turn on the charging contactor
to get some current to the batteries (to provide voltage for an inspection
of the rest of the vehicle's systems).

Does anyone on the list know anything (besides specs and discharge info
found on the web) about the EPIC?  I assume only fleet service personel
would know much, and either they are gone, or doing something else.

Any help would be appreciated.
Marc Kohler

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--- Begin Message ---
When we tested a PFC-20 on a 2400 watt genset, we got 2200 watts into the
pack.

You might check at an RV wrecking yard for a diesel or propane genset. They
have existed for years but the production numbers were less than the
gasoline fueled models.

As far as carrying the genset, you could use a wheeless trailer such as seen
at http://www.carryallracks.com/features.htm.

Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EV List Editor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evdl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!



> If I feed the rated 2800W output to my PFC-50, I doubt I
> would get all 2800 of the power. At best about 2400.
> Perhaps I could rent one some where and find out.
>
> Next, I would have to find a way to mount this on my EV so
> it could be used, yet not be stolen.
>
> I would much rather it run of a cleaner fuel. Not only
> because of the pollution, but it would reduce the ICE
> maintenance.
>
> The genset is quite small compared to the pack. So what
> would this make my vehicle? A charge depleted plug in
> hybrid?
>
> Watt do you think?
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 23:18:44 -0400, JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:
>>  Instead of taking a chance, why not just wind a small inductor and
>>  place it in series with the motor? Assume the motor inductance to
>>  be zero and wind an inductor to provide the minimum specified
>>  inductance for the controller. This can be as simple as some
>>  appropriate gauge solid copper wire wound around a pipe, taped
>>  up and the pipe removed.
>From:  Lee Hart
>I agree. There really isn't any maximum inductance (not that you're
>going to reach with any reasonable sized inductor). A few 10's of
>microhenries is really quite small.
>
>No need to even remove the form; wind it on steel pipe and leave it in
>place. It won't be a closed magnetic structure, so it won't saturate.

I'm not concerned about saturation but of eddy current losses.  I don't know
what his switching frequency is but assuming it is ultrasonic or nearly so,
one could end up with a nicely induction-heated pipe.  Without additional data
the safe route is to just pull the pipe out and let the choke be air cored.

>I do not want to take a chance, that's why I asked :-)
>So what appropriate gauge solid copper wire and length would you recommand?

I'd use the same gauge as your hookup cable.  There is no technical reason for
solid wire.  I just mentioned that because it will maintain its shape better
than stranded.  

>Coiled on what diameter pipe?

Doesn't matter as long as you calculate your solenoid choke dimensions using
that diameter.  Look on the web for the equation for an air cored solenoid.
arrl.org probably has it.  If you can't find it I'll drag out an old radio
book and look it up for you.

>Can the wire be insulated (if naked it should not touch, so it would 
>be easier insulated)?

Absolutely should be insulated.

>If I do not find the appropriate gauge solid copper wire around here, 
>can I use copper tubing (again what size and length would you 
>recommand)?

Copper tubing works great.  Since there is significant skin effect at
ultrasonic frequencies, the hollow part won't matter at all.  The only real
question is insulation.  Though one can insulate the tubing before winding
with heat shrink (poor), silicone spaghetti or something similar, I usually
don't.  

The best way to wind the tubing is to cut a mandrel out of wood or something
similar that is spiral grooved to receive the tubing.  The mandrel is screwed
out, leaving a pretty, symmetrical coil.  Filling the tube with dry sand
beforehand will prevent tube flattening as it is bent.  For low voltage
applications like this, I usually just skulk next door to the friendly local
electric motor repair shop where I moonlight and dip the coil in the varnish
tank and bake.  If you live in any sized town at all there will be an electric
motor shop nearby.  They'll probably let you dip your coil for free if you
take it home and bake it in your shop oven (don't even think about using your
kitchen oven :-)

Lacking that, several heavy coats of Krylon clear spray, baked between
coatings, will do the job.  The choke should be mounted so that it won't
contact anything conductive.  I have been known to screw one down to a hunk of
dried and varnished wood.  "Dried" as in baked out in an oven at 250 deg or so
for several hours and saturated with varnish while still warm and bone dry.
So-treated wood is an excellent insulator.

>Is there a better place to position the inductor (between M- and the 
>controller or between B+ and M+) or is it irrelevant as it is in 
>serie anyway?

It has to go between the controller and the motor.  The motor lead doesn't
matter.

John

---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN

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--- Begin Message ---
Some ideas for an EV license 
plate...NOGAS...ZEROGAS...PUREDC...AC/EV...DC/EV...AC/DC/EV...BATTPWR
 



                
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I noticed after posting that
on of my ideas was covered 
by an advertising banner.
 
NOGAS...ZEROGAS
PUREDC.. ACEV...DCEV
ACDCEV... BATTPWR
 
 
 

                
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--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004, Andrea Bachus Kohler wrote:


Does anyone on the list know anything (besides specs and discharge info
found on the web) about the EPIC?  I assume only fleet service personel
would know much, and either they are gone, or doing something else.

I know your friend wants to sell one to me;-)

-D
It was worth a try...

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:36:09 -0700, "EV List Editor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


>One of those is to do what RV's do, have an onboard genset.
>While I would like to have at least 2Kw going in, I fear a 
>genset that actually puts out 2Kw or a larger one will be
>too heavy and or noisy to leave running while it parked for
>several hours.

That's the rational thing to do.

>
>http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gensup.asp
>The EU2000 has the size, weight and noise level I would 
>accept, but it can not run for the length of time I need.
>
>The EU3000 is over 100 lbs, it is large and about the same 
>sound level, but it can run for 7 hours.
>
>If I feed the rated 2800W output to my PFC-50, I doubt I 
>would get all 2800 of the power. At best about 2400. 
>Perhaps I could rent one some where and find out.

Can you operate "outside the box"?  Comfortable with electronics?  If so there
is a much better, lighter and cheaper way to do this than run a PFC-50 from a
Honda EU.  This method involves bypassing the inverter in the EU and bringing
out the high voltage DC generated by the brushless PM alternator and using it
directly.  The generator in the EU series is a 3 phase PM high frequency
alternator not unlike a car alternator.  The output is rectified to high
voltage DC, then PWM chopped by the inverter to synthesize the 60 hz DC
waveform.

The voltage varies with engine RPM, of course, but if I recall correctly, the
max DC voltage available is on the order of 300 volts.

The most common failure in EUs is the potted inverter module.  The price of
this module makes it pretty much impractical to replace.  Therefore there is a
quantity of EUs out there with blown inverters available practically for the
taking.  I've seen several on Ebay and more at my local Honda garden appliance
dealer.

The dead inverter pod also usually kills the throttle servo drive but that's
not a big issue.  At the modest amp capability of even the EU3000, you'd be
running the engine pretty much full throttle all day, I'd expect.  Or perhaps
with a timer on the ignition to turn it off after a period.  A simple
mechanical throttle would work fine.

A more sophisticated approach would be to hack the PFC-50 to receive the high
voltage DC directly from the generator, bypassing the input rectifiers.  This
should be a fairly simple hack.

>
>Next, I would have to find a way to mount this on my EV so
>it could be used, yet not be stolen.

If you went the above route and removed the outside case from the EU, you
could mount it just about anywhere.  The actual engine with the generator
inside the flywheel is quite small.

>
>I would much rather it run of a cleaner fuel. Not only 
>because of the pollution, but it would reduce the ICE 
>maintenance.

Not enough to matter or justify the hassles.  This engine will run at a short
term constant load with little to no transient throttle events.  This removes
most of the maintenance penalties of gasoline because there is no liquid fuel
in the combustion chamber except perhaps at start-up.  The removal of lead
from gas practically eliminates deposit buildup in the chamber and on the
plug.  A quick peek at say, Onan's maintenance instructions for gas vs LP
generators shows the oil and plug change interval to be the same.

There is something like 40% less energy in a gallon of LP than gasoline so
you'd have to carry a correspondingly larger quantity for the same run time.
Refueling propane, even if you have a fill station like I do, is a hassle.
The per-BTU cost of propane and therefore the operating cost is significantly
higher than gasoline right now.

There are other alternatives such as a car alternator-based engine-driven
charger that I can discuss if you're interested in going this route.  Here are
some photos of one such device that I call the Cordless Battery Charger
(CBC)(TM).

http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/files/rv/cordless_battery_charger/

These are photos of an early prototype that used a commercially available 3
stage charger regulator.  I replaced that with a digital controller of my own
design.  The InCharge regulator is fairly inexpensive and is purely analog.
It can be easily modified for other voltages by simple resistor changes.  This
unit weighs in at under 50 lbs and can produce 150 amps at 12 volts or about
100 amps at 24 volts.  A car alternator, depending on the design and speed,
can output up to about 150 volts using an external bridge.

A CBC-style charger would particularly appropriate for an EV since the
physical design could be modified to fit it into available space.  And though
not very durable, that Honda GC series engine is designed to be quiet and to
have low emissions.  Plus it is cheap.  $500 would get everything needed
including the controller.

>
>The genset is quite small compared to the pack. So what
>would this make my vehicle? A charge depleted plug in
>hybrid? 

It would make it a practical EV.

Since I think some of what motivates us to do EVs is the desire to do
something different, consider another quite different approach.  A turbine
aircraft APU (aux power unit).  Modern APUs contain a micro turbine directly
coupled to a PM AC alternator.  Since the turbine rotor may turn at 80krpm or
more, a very high power alternator can be tiny.  I've owned a 20kw APU that I
could hold in one hand.

APUs are frightfully expensive new.  But high hour units that are no longer
airworthy are available fairly cheaply, in the range of an EU3000 or
thereabouts.  One can de-rate the thing by throttling back some and get many
more hours of service.

Aside from the tiny size, the huge output and the ability to burn just about
any flammable liquid, think of coolness factor of spooling up a turbine when
it's time to charge the batteries.  Or just finish the drive on turbine power
and to heck with the battery SOC!

John

---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN

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Since most of the energy probably comes from coal, a good one would be 

DRT BNR

Dirt Burner

Or if you live in my neck of the woods,

NUCLEAR

John


On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 21:59:56 -0700 (PDT), Jack Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>I noticed after posting that
>on of my ideas was covered 
>by an advertising banner.
> 
>NOGAS...ZEROGAS
>PUREDC.. ACEV...DCEV
>ACDCEV... BATTPWR
> 
> 
> 
>
>               
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!

---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN

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The file Your_money.scr is moved to /tmp/virZNNSD792Y.

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Hello David,

The voltage of the cell will be based on the reference voltage of each half
cell of the anode and cathode.  The anode is pretty much fixed regardless of
whether you are using Mg foil, MgAl alloy foil or some other source of Mg.
The cathode is where changes can be made, however, and depending on what it
is made from, and how well it stores (through a process called
intercalation) Magnesium ions, this half cell voltage could change slightly.
They claim to be targeting a voltage of 1.7 V per cell.  Who knows if they
can get there or not.

Another thing about the cell voltage is that it is not constant over time.
What is usually quoted as the cell voltage is the nominal (average) voltage
over a full discharge.  As the cathode fills up with Mg ions its voltage
with reference to a pure Mg electrode drops.  The voltage of the complete
cell starts out higher and ends lower.  Where it was in between will define
your nominal voltage.  And this discharge voltage can also be affected by
the rate capability of the cell, specifically, how fast the Mg ions can move
from the anode Mg foil through the electrolyte, through the separator, and
into the cathode material.  If this ionic conductivity is limited then the
voltage of the cell drops.  So there is potential to move up the nominal
voltage by making the cell more rate capable.

So there is room to move, but not much.  2 to 3 times as many cells fits
with a Mg cell voltage of 1.7 V to 1.1 V, compared with Li-ion battery
chemistries which give anywhere from 3.6 to 3.8 V, and lower at high rates
with some cells, but I'll let Victor chime in on what the T-S Li-ion nominal
discharge voltage is at higher rates, like C.

Sincerely,
David

S. David Lalonde / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Liion Power Products / http://www.liionpower.com
Li-ion & NiMH batteries for electric cycles & more!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liion_power_products/
http://liionpower.blogspot.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: Magnesium rechargeable batteries?

> On 13 Jul 2004 at 15:48, Ken Trough wrote:
>
> > As such, I think it is premature to predict
> > that it will require 2-3 times as many batteries to make a pack with the
same
> > voltage as Li-ion.
>
> Actually, I think it's a pretty safe prediction.  With every other design,
> the cell voltage is inherent to the chemistry.  It may be possible for
them
> to improve specific energy, but I don't think we can expect to see these
> cells increase in voltage as they're refined.
>
> No matter what's done to them, lead cells always produce a nominal 2.0
> volts; NiCd and NiMH cells always produce a nominal 1.2 volts.  The
nominal
> voltage is almost certainly forever fixed for magnesium cells, too.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce, how about building yourself a small direct DC generator built with a
Honda OHV engine? Run it off propane, it will derate the engines HP somewhat
but the engine will last near forever with minimal maint. And you should be
able to make 2 KW off a 5 HP engine.What is your packs charging voltage
again? David Chapman.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "EV List Editor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evdl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: close call, almost didn't make it home!


> I have been here way too many times, and now, I do my best to not
> give in to the urges to not be towed.
>
> We (EV community) are in a different stage, we do not need to
> prove anything, not when there just aren't any EVs being made.
>
> When I am in a position like Rod was, I now call to be towed. It
> is faster to do it from the start. Or if you do not want people
> you know to see the tow truck, drive a little ways to where you
> are out of sight and have access to a phone.
>
> It is better to not drain the pack until it is dead-dead,
> shortening the pack's life.
>
> Looking at the evchargernews.com site, there are more and more
> sites that are down (Mt. View and S. SF Costcos). This means
> less public charging in my area, which already sparse when
> compared to LA or Sacramento.
>
> I am working to earn money to have my chapter put in more
> public EV charging, but it is a long row to hoe, especially
> when it is me doing the work.
>
> Though I have been quite happy at the work location I have,
> my job may change and / or the rent will go up beyond the
> income, and I will have to move. There may be a time when
> where I am is too far between public charging locations.
>
> Not unlike if I were in the central valley or in a state
> where there just wasn't any charging, I have been thinking
> of what I could do.
>
> One of those is to do what RV's do, have an onboard genset.
> While I would like to have at least 2Kw going in, I fear a
> genset that actually puts out 2Kw or a larger one will be
> too heavy and or noisy to leave running while it parked for
> several hours.
>
> http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gensup.asp
> The EU2000 has the size, weight and noise level I would
> accept, but it can not run for the length of time I need.
>
> The EU3000 is over 100 lbs, it is large and about the same
> sound level, but it can run for 7 hours.
>
> If I feed the rated 2800W output to my PFC-50, I doubt I
> would get all 2800 of the power. At best about 2400.
> Perhaps I could rent one some where and find out.
>
> Next, I would have to find a way to mount this on my EV so
> it could be used, yet not be stolen.
>
> I would much rather it run of a cleaner fuel. Not only
> because of the pollution, but it would reduce the ICE
> maintenance.
>
> The genset is quite small compared to the pack. So what
> would this make my vehicle? A charge depleted plug in
> hybrid?
>
> Watt do you think?
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
I just realized that i had a really neat 2.5 KW Kohler RV generator laying
around that uses a Vertical shaft engine with the Alt hanging down. This
thing fits into a 12 X 12 X 16 " box. It was designed so that half of it
hung through the floor to keep the exhaust fumes outside so it was really
compact inside. You could use this form factor and design (I would be glad
to send you pictures) for your needs. Any room under the hood or maybe just
a corner in the back that you could porthole? Or you could build one into a
tube frame and it still would just be a little cube.  Looks like its mostly
a matter of finding the right RPM and voltage DC generator. Honda OHVs are
available new from Northern Tools pretty cheap, probably could find one on
E-bay too. TTYL David Chapman.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any ready-made generators that would work well for EV's? I'd
be interested in one for my Tropica possibly, there is a large unused
area in the front nose, and the charger plug is right there. How many
amps typically would a small generator make? I'm thinking of using it
only in emergencies and maybe once a month longish trips. Could cut my
gas car usage even further! Why carry around all that extra metal just
to go a longer distance? The EV club meetings are just a little to far
for me to drive to in my EV!  thanks!

brad

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 03:34:39 -0700, David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce,
> I just realized that i had a really neat 2.5 KW Kohler RV generator laying
> around that uses a Vertical shaft engine with the Alt hanging down. This
> thing fits into a 12 X 12 X 16 " box. It was designed so that half of it
> hung through the floor to keep the exhaust fumes outside so it was really
> compact inside. You could use this form factor and design (I would be glad
> to send you pictures) for your needs. Any room under the hood or maybe just
> a corner in the back that you could porthole? Or you could build one into a
> tube frame and it still would just be a little cube.  Looks like its mostly
> a matter of finding the right RPM and voltage DC generator. Honda OHVs are
> available new from Northern Tools pretty cheap, probably could find one on
> E-bay too. TTYL David Chapman.
> 
> 


-- 
QODBC Driver for Quickbooks - Plug-in to your data at www.qodbc.com
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What kind of vehicle did it used to be? What colour is it?
> David C. Wilker Jr.

It's a 1992 Geo Metro convertible.  Currently it's white, but I plan on
painting it a tZero yellow when the conversion is complete.

Bill Dennis


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,

I have used on my plates,  ELECTRA.  On another EV I am using ELECTRO of 
which I may have a artist that does vehicle painting, put on the statement 
on the rear and lower panel on the doors:

     Electro Motive Force     or
     Electro Motive Drive     or
     Electro Magnetic Force   or
     Electro Magnetic Drive

You can have a the Equation Formula after each expression or have it stand 
alone as:

     E = W/Q  for Electromotive Force

The Dimenstional formula is too complex to write it out here with text only, 
but it represents the EV machine.

One way to get attention is to paint on a graphic on the side of the EV the 
representing all the components, circuits and Electric and Magnetic Units in 
direct relation to where they are place in the car.

Could use different color LED's to represent the circuit flow as the vehicle 
is going.

One thing is, that you would not have to drag out a wiring diagram while you 
are on the road.

Roland


The letters will be ghost in under the clear coat, which is done by color on 
color, (different tones of the same color), which will jump out at you at 
different angles when the EV moves or when the observer moves.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: "Runs on American Energy"


> What kind of vehicle did it used to be? What colour is it?
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 3:26 PM
> Subject: RE: "Runs on American Energy"
>
>
> > This brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask.  When my EV
> > conversion is complete, I'm planning on buying vanity plates to show off
> > that the car runs on electricity.  I want something that will be easily
> > understood by most people, so I'm currently shying away from anything 
> > with
> > "EV" in it.  We're limited to 7 letters on our license plates.  I don't
> like
> > "Lectric".  Do you folks here have some creative suggestions?  Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of michael bearden
> > Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 2:48 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: "Runs on American Energy"
> >
> > WATTABMR has two bumper stickers: "Powered by 100% American Electrons"
> > and "Boycott OPEC-Drive Electric". I have never had a response to them.
> > I have some window signs (currently not in use) that would probably
> > provoke (!) a response:
> > "How much do you like that big S(tupid)U(nnecessary)V(anity), now when
> > you pull up to the gas pump?"  SUV are in large bold letters, with much
> > smaller letters in between.
> > Unless I put 8" letters on the car saying "ELECTRIC!" people really
> > don't notice.
> > Michael B.
> >
> > Mark Hanson wrote:
> >
> > >Since I put this slogan "Runs on American Energy" (using white 1" block
> > lettering) on the back of my E-jeep, people have these "forehead 
> > slapping
> > moments". Yeah, I guess you aren't buying any foriegn oil, huh?
> > www.infionline.net/~mhanson/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 8:08 PM
Subject: RE: "Runs on American Energy"


> I have a list of them I collected at different times from the EV list:
>  Another from back East; So Watt

     As for a bunper sticker. I just made a crappy sign." 20 HP @ 120 volts.
Fast 'enuf! Electrics; First and Last Cars." Below bumper in back" Look, No
Tailpipe,Arrow, and Smily Face.

    Have fun.

     Bob or Wattacar or Watt Wheels, but that/s taken?

> xx VDC
> xxx VDC
> xx VOLT
> xxVOLTS
> xxxVOLT
> 4CLNAIR
> ALT NRG
> AMP HOG
> AMPS
> AMPS2GO
> APLUGIN
> BADERY
> BAT ERY
> BATCAR
> BATTCAR
> BATTERI
> BATTERY
> BATTPWR
> CHARGE
> CHARGED
> CHRGDUP
> CHG IT
> CHRG UP
> CLN AIR
> CLNRAIR
> CLN NRG
> CLEANER
> D CELLS
> DC MOTOR
> DCPOWER
> DC PWR
> DC PWRD
> DE-ICED
> DIS CHG
> DIVRCTY     (diversity)
> E JET
> ELECTRIC
> ELECTRON
> E TRONS
> EZBNGRN
> FREAMP
> FREE NRG     (not sure we want to say that!)
> GASLESS
> GOPLZMA
> GO WATT
> GRN CAR
> H2O PWR     (in few areas)
> H8 SMOG
> I CARE
> KLN AIR
> KW BRNR
> KW PWR
> LECTRIC
> LECTRON
> LECTRUK
> NO CO
> NO CO2
> NO FOSL
> NO FUEL
> NO 2 GAS
> NO GAS
> NO ICE
> NO NGIN
> NO NOX
> NO OPEC
> NO SMOG
> NO XOST
> NOSTINK
> NTRPY     (entrophy)
> ON AC
> ON DC
> ONWATTS
> PLASMA
> PLUG IN
> PLUGITN
> PROTONS
> QUANTOM
> QUARKS
> RAREBIT
> RE CHG
> SAYWATT
> SMELESS
> SMELLES
> SYNERGY
> UNPLUGD
> VOLTS
> WATTGAS
> WATTS
> WATTSUP
> VOLTWGN
> ZAP IT
> ZAPPED
>
> Neon
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 5:23 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for a set of batteries in MA, what can you
peoplerecommend?


>
> Re: Looking for a set of batteries in MA, what can you people recommend?
>
> Hi Jeff;

   Try the Northeast battery distrubuters in Worchester, they sell a hellova
lot of batteries and often get ones damaged in shipping, blems and
whatnot.They blow those out cheep. Tell them yur in the EAA, they may help
ya?and are into EV's. The're nice folks,make your case.

    Good Luck

     Bob
>
>
>
> On 13 Jul 2004 at 17:39, Jeff Dobereiner EVProject.com wrote:
>
> > My vehicle is going to have a 120 volt setup, so I'll need
> > either 10 12v, 15 8v or 20 6v batteries. What kind do you guys
recommend?
>
> You could have a very good pack for about 1800 dollars and a 680 pound
weight or 900 dollars and a 340 pound pack.
> http://www.sg-photo.com/nicad_batteries.htm Here is the link.  Lawrence
Rhodes......
>

--- End Message ---

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