EV Digest 3706

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Neil G. Miller 98)
  4) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Air, ferrite stators?   was Re: more efficient electric motors
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) Re: Air, ferrite stators?   was Re: more efficient electric motors
        by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Air, ferrite stators?   was Re: more efficient electric motors
        by Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: "Runs on American Energy"
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 15) Re: In-wheel motors
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 16) Re: Online Machine Shop
        by "Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 18) Runs On American Energy
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Electric motorcycle
        by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: more efficient electric motors
        by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: service
        by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Air, ferrite stators?   was Re: more efficient electric motors
        by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: In-wheel motors
        by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) CivicWithACord: batt. rack tight on brake reservoir. Advice?
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Most single phase AC induction motors used in 
appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
Ametek for a wide variety of customers.  Nothing
over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
Anything more and this guy is a liar.  You can get
a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC motors,
anything more is just BS.  96% efficiency for a BLDC
is operating under ideal conditions.  EV traction
applications spread the efficiency over a much broader
range and typically lower this efficiency
considerably.
I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but very
close to the motor used in the ND university solar
racer.
Rod.
--- Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If I read this correctly, this article says that
> this man has electric
> motors that run at 20% of the electric power
> required of similar
> motors by the use of magnets. This means that a
> typical EV like I have
> now could have a 200 mile range where it now has a
> 50 mile range? This
> article was from April, where is this guy now and
> how can we see about
> getting some of these things in the USA so we can
> start using them?
> Does anyone here live in Japan?
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:39:49 -0400
> Subject: [ETList] Kohei Minato's Magnetic Motor
> 
> From:
>
http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/04/05/kohei_minato_and_the_japan_magnetic_fan_company.htm
> Via http://www.japan.com/technology/index.php
> Via Nexus magazine/Jul-Aug 04
> Via Future Energy eNews Apr 5, 04
> by Tom Valone of the Integrity Research Institute
> 
> (Go to links for ongoing debates)
> 
> April 05, 2004
> Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company
> By John Todd
> 
> View video: http://www.japan.com/minato/index.php
> 
> The Techno Maestro's  Amazing Machine
> Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company
> 
> A maverick inventor's breakthrough electric motor
> uses permanent magnets to
> make power  -- and has investors salivating
> 
> by John Dodd
> 
> When we first got the call from an excited colleague
> that he'd just seen the
> most amazing invention -- a magnetic motor that
> consumed almost no
> electricity -- we were so skeptical that we declined
> an invitation to go see
> it. If the technology was so good, we thought, how
> come they didn't have any
> customers yet?
> 
> We forgot about the invitation and the company until
> several months later,
> when our friend called again.
> 
> "OK," he said. "They've just sold 40,000 units to a
> major convenience store
> chain. Now will you see it?"
> 
> In Japan, no one pays for 40,000 convenience store
> cooling fans without
> being reasonably sure that they are going to work.
> 
> The maestro
> 
> The streets of east Shinjuku are littered with the
> tailings of the many
> small factories and workshops still located there --
> hardly one's image of
> the headquarters of a world-class technology
> company. But this is where we
> are first greeted outside Kohei Minato's workshop by
> Nobue Minato, the wife
> of the inventor and co-director of the family firm.
> 
> The workshop itself is like a Hollywood set of an
> inventor's garage.
> Electrical machines, wires, measuring instruments
> and batteries are strewn
> everywhere. Along the diagram-covered walls are
> drill presses, racks of
> spare coils, Perspex plating and other
> paraphernalia. And seated in the
> back, head bowed in thought, is the 58-year-old
> techno maestro himself.
> 
> Minato is no newcomer to the limelight. In fact, he
> has been an entertainer
> for most of his life, making music and producing his
> daughter's singing
> career in the US. He posseses an oversized presence,
> with a booming voice
> and a long ponytail. In short, you can easily
> imagine him onstage or in a
> convertible cruising down the coast of California --
> not hunched over a mass
> of wires and coils in Tokyo's cramped backstreets.
> 
> Joining us are a middle-aged banker and his
> entourage from Osaka and
> accounting and finance consultant Yukio Funai. The
> banker is doing a quick
> review for an investment, while the rest of us just
> want to see if Minato's
> magnetic motors really work. A prototype car air
> conditioner cooler sitting
> on a bench looks like it would fit into a Toyota
> Corolla and quickly catches
> our attention.
> 
> Seeing is believing
> 
> Nobue then takes us through the functions and
> operations of each of the
> machines, starting off with a simple explanation of
> the laws of magnetism
> and repulsion. She demonstrates the "Minato Wheel"
> by kicking a magnet-lined
> rotor into action with a magnetic wand.
> 
> Looking carefully at the rotor, we see that it has
> over 16 magnets embedded
> on a slant --  apparently to make Minato's machines
> work, the positioning
> and angle of the magnets is critical. After she
> kicks the wheel into life,
> it keeps spinning, proving at least that the design
> doesn't suffer from
> magnetic lockup.
> 
> She then moves us to the next device, a weighty
> machine connected to a tiny
> battery. Apparently the load on the machine is a
> 35kg rotor, which could
> easily be used in a washing machine. After she
> flicks the switch, the huge
> rotor spins at over 1,500 rpms effortlessly and
> silently. Meters show the
> power in and power out. Suddenly, a power source of
> 16 watt or so is driving
> a device that should be drawing at least 200 to 300
> watts.
> 
> Nobue explains to us that this and all the other
> devices only use electrical
> power for the two electromagnetic stators at either
> side of each rotor,
> which are used to kick the rotor past its lockup
> point then on to the next
> arc of magnets. Apparently the angle and spacing of
> the magnets is such that
> once the rotor is moving, repulsion between the
> stators and the rotor poles
> keeps the rotor moving smoothly in a
> counterclockwise direction. Either way,
> it's impressive.
> 
> Next we move to a unit with its motor connected to a
> generator. What we see
> is striking. The meters showed an input to the
> stator electromagnets of
> approximately 1.8 volts and 150mA input, and from
> the generator, 9.144 volts
> and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and
> 9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W
> out.
> 
> But according to the laws of physics, you can't get
> more out of a device
> than you put into it. We mention this to Kohei
> Minato while looking under
> the workbench to make sure there aren't any hidden
> wires.
> 
> Minato assures us that he hasn't transcended the
> laws of physics. The force
> supplying the unexplained extra power out is
> generated by the magnetic
> strength of the permanent magnets embedded in the
> rotor. "I'm simply
> harnessing one of the four fundamental forces of
> nature," he says.
> 
> Although we learned in school that magnets were
> always bipolar and so
> magnetically induced motion would always end in a
> locked state of
> equilibrium, Minato explains that he has fine-tuned
> the positioning of the
> magnets and the timing of pulses to the stators to
> the point where the
> repulsion between the rotor and the stator (the
> fixed outer magnetic ring)
> is transitory. This creates further motion -- rather
> than a lockup. (See the
> sidebar on page 41 for a full explanation).
> 
> Real products
> 
=== message truncated ===

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
but what about it's use as a generator? In an EV that could extend
range, apply a small charge and it runs a generator efficiently. SOme
say they have seen it live, and of course others say no way, but he
has built it and there is video.

On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:47:00 -0700 (PDT), Rod Hower
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Most single phase AC induction motors used in
> appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
> produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
> an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
> Ametek for a wide variety of customers.  Nothing
> over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
> Anything more and this guy is a liar.  You can get
> a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC motors,
> anything more is just BS.  96% efficiency for a BLDC
> is operating under ideal conditions.  EV traction
> applications spread the efficiency over a much broader
> range and typically lower this efficiency
> considerably.
> I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but very
> close to the motor used in the ND university solar
> racer.
> Rod.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Brad Waddell wrote:
She then moves us to the next device, a weighty machine connected to a tiny
battery. Apparently the load on the machine is a 35kg rotor, which could
easily be used in a washing machine. After she flicks the switch, the huge
rotor spins at over 1,500 rpms effortlessly and silently. Meters show the
power in and power out. Suddenly, a power source of 16 watt or so is driving
a device that should be drawing at least 200 to 300 watts.
--- end of quote ---

Assume for a sec that this guys motor is 100% efficient (since it can't any better), 
and that a standard electric motor would require 250 watts to do the same job. Now do 
the math, the standard electric motor must be 6% efficent, that's terrible for a 
motor. If the motor in your car were that bad, your half ton of lead would only get 
you around the block. Fortunately your electric motor is 80-90% efficient and that 
article is full of s--t.

-n

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,

You should really read up on what you are commenting on before dismissing it
as just the same stuff you do every day.

This guy uses a clever arrangement of magnets in a spiral around the rotor
and so if the rotor magnet is placed at the beginning of the spiral it is
forced to move to the end the only power input in the whole rotation is to
allow the magnet to pass from the end to the beginning without cogging and
start over again.

Around 97% of the shaft output is generated with no input power, but I
suspect this as you say is not as good as is being claimed, conservation
would require the amount of power used to transverse the start finish gap to
be equal to that obtained by the rotor plus losses so it should be under
unity.

We ( as in those of us who have tried similar experiments ) know that no
matter how many magnets are on the track or how fast any one magnet is
travelling down the track it can never pass from the end to the start
unaided, but you have to wonder just how much energy is needed to be added
to the momentum to get it past when the track is 97% of the rotor rotation.

Garry Stanley

Cable.net.nz

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Yeah, our eTORQ is pretty good - around 94% peak efficiency. It is an ironless, axial flux, PM, BL motor.

But this is probably only good for light vehicles like our solar car. The shaft can only support about 200lbs and cannot tolerate much sideload at all. Due to it's construction it cannot sustain high power levels (>3000Watts) for any significant time without overheating. This could probably be helped with liquid cooling for a full-sized car.

I believe the nameplate says 10kW, but I wouldn't run it that high for more than a few minutes. Still, it does work well for our lightweight car. Our new one for 2005 should be a little better yet.

Andrew
NDSU Sunsetters

Rod Hower wrote:

Most single phase AC induction motors used in appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
Ametek for a wide variety of customers. Nothing
over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
Anything more and this guy is a liar. You can get
a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC motors,
anything more is just BS. 96% efficiency for a BLDC
is operating under ideal conditions. EV traction
applications spread the efficiency over a much broader
range and typically lower this efficiency
considerably.
I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but very
close to the motor used in the ND university solar
racer.
Rod.
--- Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


If I read this correctly, this article says that
this man has electric
motors that run at 20% of the electric power
required of similar
motors by the use of magnets. This means that a
typical EV like I have
now could have a 200 mile range where it now has a
50 mile range? This
article was from April, where is this guy now and
how can we see about
getting some of these things in the USA so we can
start using them?
Does anyone here live in Japan?


----- Original Message ----- From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:39:49 -0400 Subject: [ETList] Kohei Minato's Magnetic Motor

From:


http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2004/04/05/kohei_minato_and_the_japan_magnetic_fan_company.htm

Via http://www.japan.com/technology/index.php
Via Nexus magazine/Jul-Aug 04
Via Future Energy eNews Apr 5, 04
by Tom Valone of the Integrity Research Institute

(Go to links for ongoing debates)

April 05, 2004
Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company
By John Todd

View video: http://www.japan.com/minato/index.php

The Techno Maestro's  Amazing Machine
Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company

A maverick inventor's breakthrough electric motor
uses permanent magnets to
make power  -- and has investors salivating

by John Dodd

When we first got the call from an excited colleague
that he'd just seen the
most amazing invention -- a magnetic motor that
consumed almost no
electricity -- we were so skeptical that we declined
an invitation to go see
it. If the technology was so good, we thought, how
come they didn't have any
customers yet?

We forgot about the invitation and the company until
several months later,
when our friend called again.

"OK," he said. "They've just sold 40,000 units to a
major convenience store
chain. Now will you see it?"

In Japan, no one pays for 40,000 convenience store
cooling fans without
being reasonably sure that they are going to work.

The maestro

The streets of east Shinjuku are littered with the
tailings of the many
small factories and workshops still located there --
hardly one's image of
the headquarters of a world-class technology
company. But this is where we
are first greeted outside Kohei Minato's workshop by
Nobue Minato, the wife
of the inventor and co-director of the family firm.

The workshop itself is like a Hollywood set of an
inventor's garage.
Electrical machines, wires, measuring instruments
and batteries are strewn
everywhere. Along the diagram-covered walls are
drill presses, racks of
spare coils, Perspex plating and other
paraphernalia. And seated in the
back, head bowed in thought, is the 58-year-old
techno maestro himself.

Minato is no newcomer to the limelight. In fact, he
has been an entertainer
for most of his life, making music and producing his
daughter's singing
career in the US. He posseses an oversized presence,
with a booming voice
and a long ponytail. In short, you can easily
imagine him onstage or in a
convertible cruising down the coast of California --
not hunched over a mass
of wires and coils in Tokyo's cramped backstreets.

Joining us are a middle-aged banker and his
entourage from Osaka and
accounting and finance consultant Yukio Funai. The
banker is doing a quick
review for an investment, while the rest of us just
want to see if Minato's
magnetic motors really work. A prototype car air
conditioner cooler sitting
on a bench looks like it would fit into a Toyota
Corolla and quickly catches
our attention.

Seeing is believing

Nobue then takes us through the functions and
operations of each of the
machines, starting off with a simple explanation of
the laws of magnetism
and repulsion. She demonstrates the "Minato Wheel"
by kicking a magnet-lined
rotor into action with a magnetic wand.

Looking carefully at the rotor, we see that it has
over 16 magnets embedded
on a slant --  apparently to make Minato's machines
work, the positioning
and angle of the magnets is critical. After she
kicks the wheel into life,
it keeps spinning, proving at least that the design
doesn't suffer from
magnetic lockup.

She then moves us to the next device, a weighty
machine connected to a tiny
battery. Apparently the load on the machine is a
35kg rotor, which could
easily be used in a washing machine. After she
flicks the switch, the huge
rotor spins at over 1,500 rpms effortlessly and
silently. Meters show the
power in and power out. Suddenly, a power source of
16 watt or so is driving
a device that should be drawing at least 200 to 300
watts.

Nobue explains to us that this and all the other
devices only use electrical
power for the two electromagnetic stators at either
side of each rotor,
which are used to kick the rotor past its lockup
point then on to the next
arc of magnets. Apparently the angle and spacing of
the magnets is such that
once the rotor is moving, repulsion between the
stators and the rotor poles
keeps the rotor moving smoothly in a
counterclockwise direction. Either way,
it's impressive.

Next we move to a unit with its motor connected to a
generator. What we see
is striking. The meters showed an input to the
stator electromagnets of
approximately 1.8 volts and 150mA input, and from
the generator, 9.144 volts
and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and
9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W
out.

But according to the laws of physics, you can't get
more out of a device
than you put into it. We mention this to Kohei
Minato while looking under
the workbench to make sure there aren't any hidden
wires.

Minato assures us that he hasn't transcended the
laws of physics. The force
supplying the unexplained extra power out is
generated by the magnetic
strength of the permanent magnets embedded in the
rotor. "I'm simply
harnessing one of the four fundamental forces of
nature," he says.

Although we learned in school that magnets were
always bipolar and so
magnetically induced motion would always end in a
locked state of
equilibrium, Minato explains that he has fine-tuned
the positioning of the
magnets and the timing of pulses to the stators to
the point where the
repulsion between the rotor and the stator (the
fixed outer magnetic ring)
is transitory. This creates further motion -- rather
than a lockup. (See the
sidebar on page 41 for a full explanation).

Real products


=== message truncated ===


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your electric motor is just that, an electric motor, while his is a magnet
motor for 97% of the rotation and an electric motor for only around 3%, sure
you can put in power for only 3% of the rotation of your electric motor, but
in doing this you have no drive output for the other 97% and so you would
surely have a very inefficient slow gutless motor but in reality he is doing
nothing more than you are doing except he is doing it backwards, your motor
applies power to the coil and then removes it so that the coil can move past
the lock up point using the momentum produced from the power on cycle and it
then moves on to the next point where momentum can be added with the
appropriate magnetic field in the coil while he has created a cycle that
only has one lock up point in the entire rotation and instead of applying
power between lock up points he applies power to get past the lock up point.

So while you might be right about not getting more than 100% from an
electric motor, it would require that you were actually using an electric
motor to say that it is not more than 100% and though he is putting in power
it is not strictly speaking an electric motor in the same sense that you
call your motor an electric motor and so your comparison only shows that you
should have spent a little more time qualifying your comments before making
them.



Garry Stanley

Cable.net.nz

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We've been trying to decide on a plate.  Here's what we've looked into for
our new BMW conversion to be registered in CA.  Entries marked with - are
not available in California at the current time.
Bruce

EV IZED
AMPS OK
AMP BMW
EV BMW3
12 X12V
IM AN EV
NOT GASR
EV CAR
PLG IN
VOLT BMW
ZEV BMW
BMW ZEV
EV 325ES
EV 325
B  M  EV
NOW N EV
I (heart ) EV
I (heart) EVS
I NO (heart) GAS

-BAT INCL
-ECAR
-ELECTRC
-ELCTRIC
-ELECTR
-E POWER
-EV POWER
-EV
-EV3
-GASLESS
-I (heart) AMPS
-LECTRIC
-NO GAS
-NO NOX
-NO SMOG
-NO (heart) SMOG
-NOT GAS
-NO 2 GAS
-NO 2 OPEC
-NOT OPEC
-PLUG IN
-VOLT PWR
-144V DC
-144V EV
-144 VOLT

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it might be better to divide the discussion into two topics -
100+ plus output - put that aside for the moment, since we cannot
actually test it, and think about the other issue, 80% less energy for
the same output power, making EV's run way farther on the same battery
pack.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
     Hi Andrew, Rod, Brad and All,
        Brad, it is a scam and overunity is not
allowed on the list so please drop it. Rod and the
others are right, listen to them and learn.

        Andrew, what kind of ironless stator or  rotor
do you use, Air? Dia?
        Could you grind up ferrite cores and make a
working stator that way?  
         How did the eff get high without iron lams?
        Can you get high eff with air? How?
               Thanks, 
                 jerry dycus

--- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Yeah, our eTORQ is pretty good - around 94% peak
> efficiency.  It is an 
> ironless, axial flux, PM, BL motor.
> 
> But this is probably only good for light vehicles
> like our solar car. 
> The shaft can only support about 200lbs and cannot
> tolerate much 
> sideload at all.  Due to it's construction it cannot
> sustain high power 
> levels (>3000Watts) for any significant time without
> overheating.  This 
> could probably be helped with liquid cooling for a
> full-sized car.
> 
> I believe the nameplate says 10kW, but I wouldn't
> run it that high for 
> more than a few minutes.  Still, it does work well
> for our lightweight 
> car.  Our new one for 2005 should be a little better
> yet.
> 
> Andrew
> NDSU Sunsetters
> 
> Rod Hower wrote:
> 
> > Most single phase AC induction motors used in 
> > appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
> > produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
> > an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
> > Ametek for a wide variety of customers.  Nothing
> > over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
> > Anything more and this guy is a liar.  You can get
> > a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC
> motors,
> > anything more is just BS.  96% efficiency for a
> BLDC
> > is operating under ideal conditions.  EV traction
> > applications spread the efficiency over a much
> broader
> > range and typically lower this efficiency
> > considerably.
> > I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but
> very
> > close to the motor used in the ND university solar
> > racer.
> > Rod.



                
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about BEVVY ?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just yesterday I was browsing the AC Propulsion website and they had some
information for their airplane and their 'new' drive technique for its
ironless motor.  Link:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/Split_phase_motor_drives.pdf

- Art


>         Andrew, what kind of ironless stator or  rotor
> do you use, Air? Dia?
>         Could you grind up ferrite cores and make a
> working stator that way?
>          How did the eff get high without iron lams?
>         Can you get high eff with air? How?
>                Thanks,
>                  jerry dycus

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Unfortunately, I am not allowed to say much about the eTORQ construction since it is a prototype. The stator does not use any ferrite, it is just the coils encapsulated in a high-temp, thermally conductive epoxy.

There is iron in the motor (rotor back iron) just not in the stator. I'm under the impression that it is possible because there are two rotors, one on either side of the stator. Any iron in between wouldn't do much except provide losses (eddy currents, hysteresis).

You can see a fairly good exploded diagram of the stock eTORQ here:
http://www.e-torq.com/

You can see the encapsulated stator in the middle with the leads coming out and the rotors on either side.

Andrew
NDSU Sunsetters

jerry dycus wrote:

     Hi Andrew, Rod, Brad and All,
        Brad, it is a scam and overunity is not
allowed on the list so please drop it. Rod and the
others are right, listen to them and learn.

Andrew, what kind of ironless stator or rotor
do you use, Air? Dia?
Could you grind up ferrite cores and make a
working stator that way? How did the eff get high without iron lams?
Can you get high eff with air? How?
Thanks, jerry dycus


--- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Yeah, our eTORQ is pretty good - around 94% peak
efficiency. It is an ironless, axial flux, PM, BL motor.


But this is probably only good for light vehicles
like our solar car. The shaft can only support about 200lbs and cannot
tolerate much sideload at all. Due to it's construction it cannot
sustain high power levels (>3000Watts) for any significant time without
overheating. This could probably be helped with liquid cooling for a
full-sized car.


I believe the nameplate says 10kW, but I wouldn't
run it that high for more than a few minutes. Still, it does work well
for our lightweight car. Our new one for 2005 should be a little better
yet.


Andrew
NDSU Sunsetters

Rod Hower wrote:


Most single phase AC induction motors used in appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
Ametek for a wide variety of customers. Nothing
over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
Anything more and this guy is a liar. You can get
a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC

motors,

anything more is just BS. 96% efficiency for a

BLDC

is operating under ideal conditions.  EV traction
applications spread the efficiency over a much

broader

range and typically lower this efficiency
considerably.
I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but

very

close to the motor used in the ND university solar
racer.
Rod.




                
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want a frame for my Prius that says something like:
"My Other Car is"
"ALL Electric"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Waddell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: "Runs on American Energy"


> My suggestion is not to get a custom plate, all you are doing is
> paying more taxes to a DMV that is not doing one thing to help you run
> an electric car. Use a plate frame instead.
>
> brad
>
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:18:51 -0700, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > Hmmm...."NEO GEO","GASFREE","GASLESS","GEO-D-C","48 VDC" (I
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
< Entries marked with - are not available in California at the current time. >

The Kewet I just sold goes with "KEWT EV",
while the one I still have has "WEE VOLT" -
but both are currently "non-op" so the DMV leaves me alone.

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--- Begin Message ---
     I have a mountain bike with a brushless motor in the front wheel . It 
will go about 30 miles on flat ground. It is not so good on steep hills. Ev 20 
was showing a sports car with motors in the wheels, I believe that it was 
Wavecrest.
                  
                          Larry Cronk 72 Datsun Elec Truck

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have used this in the past and it worked out perfect for me.
Tim
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: Online Machine Shop


> First of all, let me say I have no affiliation with this company, nor have
I
> even used their services, I offer it only as "potentially useful
information".
>
> There is a compay called emachine shop that offers just about any maching
you
> could need.  You go to their web site which is:
>
> http://www.emachineshop.com/
>
> And download a free cad program.  You design your part in this program,
and it
> will automatically give you a quote on having the part made.
>
> They seem to be able to make just about anything.
>
> The really cool part is after you get your quote, you press "Purchase" and
> your desigin is automatically uploaded to their site, and the part is made
and
> shipped to you.
>
> I thought a lot of people on this list might find this useful.
>
> James
>
> PS. if anyone uses them, I'd like to hear the results.
>
> JJ
>

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--- Begin Message ---
< If I read this correctly, this article says that this man has electric
< motors that run at 20% of the electric power required of similar
< motors by the use of magnets. This means that a typical EV like I have
< now could have a 200 mile range where it now has a 50 mile range? This
< article was from April, where is this guy now and how can we see about
< getting some of these things in the USA so we can start using them?
< Does anyone here live in Japan?

There are people all over the world trying to prove "magnet motors"; there are
several videos online, even one with that Japanese inventor demonstrating
spinning a motor over a foot in diameter, but the decerning eye will note that
it only starts (and can continue) moving when a large magnet is moved within
the field, so ultimately the energy spinning it is a conversion of the
demonstrator's muscle input - like whacking a bicycle wheel with your hand, but
without having to touch it.

This reminds me of what Lee Hart said about magnets: think of them as springs.
This also helps me explain PM and BLDC motors - electricity in coils converts
to an opposing magnetic force, but the magnets in these devices don't "create"
energy.

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--- Begin Message ---

> On Friday, July 16, 2004, at 08:08  PM, Paul G wrote:
> 
>> I have a list of them I collected at different times from the EV list:
>> 
>> xx VDC
>> xxx VDC
>> xx VOLT
>> xxVOLTS
>> xxxVOLT
>> 4CLNAIR
>> ALT NRG
>> AMP HOG
>> AMPS
>> AMPS2GO
>> APLUGIN
>> BADERY
>> BAT ERY
>> BATCAR
>> BATTCAR
>> BATTERI
>> BATTERY
>> BATTPWR
>> CHARGE
>> CHARGED
>> CHRGDUP
>> CHG IT
>> CHRG UP
>> CLN AIR
>> CLNRAIR
>> CLN NRG
>> CLEANER
>> D CELLS
>> DC MOTOR
>> DCPOWER
>> DC PWR
>> DC PWRD
>> DE-ICED
>> DIS CHG
>> DIVRCTY     (diversity)
DO MORE
>> E JET
>> ELECTRIC
>> ELECTRON
>> E TRONS
>> EZBNGRN
>> FREAMP
>> FREE NRG     (not sure we want to say that!)
>> GASLESS
GAS SUX
>> GOPLZMA
>> GO WATT
>> GRN CAR
>> H2O PWR     (in few areas)
>> H8 SMOG
>> I CARE
>> KLN AIR
>> KW BRNR
>> KW PWR
>> LECTRIC
>> LECTRON
>> LECTRUK
>> NO CO
>> NO CO2
>> NO FOSL
>> NO FUEL
>> NO 2 GAS
>> NO GAS
>> NO ICE
>> NO NGIN
>> NO NOX
>> NO OPEC
>> NO SMOG
>> NO XOST
>> NOSTINK
>> NTRPY     (entrophy)
>> ON AC
>> ON DC
>> ONWATTS
>> PLASMA
>> PLUG IN
>> PLUGITN
>> PROTONS
>> QUANTOM
>> QUARKS
>> RAREBIT
>> RE CHG
>> SAYWATT
>> SMELESS
>> SMELLES
>> SYNERGY
>> UNPLUGD
>> VOLTS
>> WATTGAS
>> WATTS
>> WATTSUP
>> VOLTWGN
>> ZAP IT
>> ZAPPED

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At 1:37 PM -0400 on 7/17/04, David Roden wrote:

On 16 Jul 2004 at 11:15, Lee Hart wrote:

 People *have* met your requirements, but not with a crude conversion.
 They have to start with a blank sheet of paper, and design the entire
 vehicle to meet these performance requirements. You wind up with
 something like a feet-forward motorcycle with full fairing, a high
 efficiency motor, and an advanced battery type.

Didn't Cedric Lynch build something like this?

Yep. You can see it here on Paul Compton's website.

http://www.paulcompton.vispa.com/lynch1.htm
--


Auf wiedersehen!

  ______________________________________________________
  "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."

  "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
  of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
  women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

  "..No."

  "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"

-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
garry wrote:

Your electric motor is just that, an electric motor, while his is a magnet
motor for 97% of the rotation and an electric motor for only around 3%, sure


The only "magnet motor" is an electric motor. Magnets cannot output a net power in any way shape or form [barring grinding them up to make thermite]. Saying that it does nothing for 97% does not make the 3% any more efficient. No, it doesn't. It's been discussed too many times on the EVlist to argue about it again. This is all I will say.
--
Martin Klingensmith

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--- Begin Message ---
goodsharonwbird wrote:

Hi Guys, I read here that some one said service was a prob with EVs, It can be , thats because engineers have built them, they always make things way to hard to work on or understand, thats why engineers dont know where the pointy end of the screwdriver goes,

Why do people stereotype like this? It gets irritating after a while.
--
Martin Klingensmith [future EE with much hands-on experience]

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
     Hi Andrew and All,
         Thanks, this was just what I've been looking
for.
         It looks easy to build without having to find
correct lams!! I've know about the style but didn't
know it could be that eff. It's used on a wind gen
list too where they make their own gens from scratch.
         With the coils fixed on the inside disc
stator with PM disc's on each side rotating on a
shaft.
         Now I have to decide to destroy my damaged
E-tek to get the mags to play with. Maybe even convert
the rotor to the stator! With better cooling it may
handle more power. 
        Does the E-tek only have 4 poles/side? If so I
need to find other magnets as I need 12, 18 or 24
total.
        Making that type of stator, rotor will be easy
for me.
         Looking high and low I haven't been able to
find a good motor, controller for my future EV's, gens
so need build my own.
        And a modular controller that most people
could repair.
        And both these at 30kw peak, 15kw cont., needs
to be done for about a $600 price point. It's a lot I
know but with good cooling, big coils, more dia should
do the trick.
              Thanks,
                    jerry dycus

- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Unfortunately, I am not allowed to say much about
> the eTORQ construction 
> since it is a prototype.  The stator does not use
> any ferrite, it is 
> just the coils encapsulated in a high-temp,
> thermally conductive epoxy.
> 
> There is iron in the motor (rotor back iron) just
> not in the stator. 
> I'm under the impression that it is possible because
> there are two 
> rotors, one on either side of the stator.  Any iron
> in between wouldn't 
> do much except provide losses (eddy currents,
> hysteresis).
> 
> You can see a fairly good exploded diagram of the
> stock eTORQ here:
> http://www.e-torq.com/
> 
> You can see the encapsulated stator in the middle
> with the leads coming 
> out and the rotors on either side.
> 
> Andrew
> NDSU Sunsetters
> 
> jerry dycus wrote:
> 
> >      Hi Andrew, Rod, Brad and All,
> >         Brad, it is a scam and overunity is not
> > allowed on the list so please drop it. Rod and the
> > others are right, listen to them and learn.
> > 
> >         Andrew, what kind of ironless stator or 
> rotor
> > do you use, Air? Dia?
> >         Could you grind up ferrite cores and make
> a
> > working stator that way?  
> >          How did the eff get high without iron
> lams?
> >         Can you get high eff with air? How?
> >                Thanks, 
> >                  jerry dycus
> > 
> > --- Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>Yeah, our eTORQ is pretty good - around 94% peak
> >>efficiency.  It is an 
> >>ironless, axial flux, PM, BL motor.
> >>
> >>But this is probably only good for light vehicles
> >>like our solar car. 
> >>The shaft can only support about 200lbs and cannot
> >>tolerate much 
> >>sideload at all.  Due to it's construction it
> cannot
> >>sustain high power 
> >>levels (>3000Watts) for any significant time
> without
> >>overheating.  This 
> >>could probably be helped with liquid cooling for a
> >>full-sized car.
> >>
> >>I believe the nameplate says 10kW, but I wouldn't
> >>run it that high for 
> >>more than a few minutes.  Still, it does work well
> >>for our lightweight 
> >>car.  Our new one for 2005 should be a little
> better
> >>yet.
> >>
> >>Andrew
> >>NDSU Sunsetters
> >>
> >>Rod Hower wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Most single phase AC induction motors used in 
> >>>appliances are inefficient, these are cheap to
> >>>produce currently. This guy has nothing more than
> >>>an efficient BLDC motor, we make lots of them at
> >>>Ametek for a wide variety of customers.  Nothing
> >>>over unity, probably just mid 80% efficient BLDC.
> >>>Anything more and this guy is a liar.  You can
> get
> >>>a peak of 96% efficiency on some larger BLDC
> >>
> >>motors,
> >>
> >>>anything more is just BS.  96% efficiency for a
> >>
> >>BLDC
> >>
> >>>is operating under ideal conditions.  EV traction
> >>>applications spread the efficiency over a much
> >>
> >>broader
> >>
> >>>range and typically lower this efficiency
> >>>considerably.
> >>>I think the most efficient BLDC is not ideal but
> >>
> >>very
> >>
> >>>close to the motor used in the ND university
> solar
> >>>racer.
> >>>Rod.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >             
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
> >
>
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
> > 
> 
> 



                
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have a mountain bike with a brushless motor in the front wheel . It will go about 30 miles on flat ground. It is not so good on steep hills. Ev 20 was showing a sports car with motors in the wheels, I believe that it was Wavecrest.
Larry Cronk 72 Datsun Elec Truck




Larry,
where can I find out about this motor?
Thanks
--
Martin Klingensmith

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, 
   I'm so dang close to being on the road, and in a
wee bit of a pickle.  Have been working from
videotape, which showed I could place 4 batts. in
front of the firewall. I did, and have absolutely no
millimeter of clearange. Mind you, they're floodies,
so 67 lbs. ea.
   The tie-down is getting fabbed as we speak.  
   It goes without saying that around a curve, the
batteries will press even harder against the brake
reservoir/master cylinder than they are now.  Not
good.
Either:
   I take a piece of the hold down out, so I can clear
the brake reservoir, and assume that my hold-down will
keep the batteries from exerting even one pound more
force on it, or
   I re-fab the batt. rack, making it 2 cm forward
from where it is now.  Hopefully it will still clear
the sloping hood.  In this situation, instead of
encroaching the brake reservoir, it will have 5 cm. of
space before the master cylinder.
   Yep, it's one of those "well, I really need to see
it" things, but what are gut level feelings?  While a
cylindrical reservoir is a strong shape, it is made of
plastic, and with a deformable plastic cover, I am
concerned that even minimal force might break it off.
   Thoughts?

Thanks, 

=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V 
(in progress)!             ____ 
                     __/__|__\ __        
           =D-------/   -  -     \      
                     'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you 
saving any gas for your kids?


                
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