EV Digest 3867
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: 1994 Chevrolet Electric S10s @ auction
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Maybe dreams work.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) OT: Just reading my Saturday paper..
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Scooter Battery Balancer
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) .li-polymer bats.
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Interesting motor?
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: .li-polymer bats.
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Vehicle Preheat Idea
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) The EV Dream continues
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Interesting motor?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Fwd: .li-polymer bats.
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Escape Hybrid website
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: .li-polymer bats.
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Interesting motor?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Long range EV's, was (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Curious about PM motor options for EVs
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Long range EV's, was (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Long range EV's, was (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Tommy Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Scooter Battery Balancer
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: etek motor
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVDL'ers, There are at least 2 Electric S10 Pickups on the auction block tomorrow in
Benicia, CA: http://www.nationwideauction.com/ENU/AssetDetails/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
CHEVROLET S10 w/ 1,491 miles http://www.nationwideauction.com/ENU/AssetDetails/[EMAIL
PROTECTED] CHEVROLET S10 w/ 1,923 miles Don't let these slip away. Someone should win
the bids for these and keep them on the road! BR,Ed Thorpe--- On Fri 10/22, aalander
< [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:From: aalander [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL
PROTECTED]: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:04:44 -0700Subject: 1994 Chevrolet Electric S10s @
auctionHello Ed!Here is the information on the S10 Electric Trucks @ Nationwide
Auction inBenicia. I hope someone will be able to go to this one. I think theyshould
go for a reasonable price.Have a great weekend!Aaron
Landerhttp://www.nationwideauction.com Select the Benicia Auction for 10/23/04!
.The electric trucks are listed under passenger vehicles, then pickup trucks."Let us
so live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry."~Mark Twain~
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 1:54 PM
Subject: Re: I would like additional information about Nissan products.
[INTR:130793]
Dear Lawrence Rhodes,
Thank you for taking the time to personally contact us about your interest
in Nissan products.
The Altra EV has been made available to a select number of demonstration
fleet users in California. Nissan will continue to expand this market with
an eye toward consumers over the next several years.
If you need any additional information or have further questions, please
let us know by reply e-mail or by calling 1-800-647-7263 and pressing "0"
for a live operator.
Also, make sure to take a look at our website, www.NissanUSA.com, for the
most up-to-date product information.
Recent college grads may qualify for a special finance rate through NMAC?s
(SignatureGRADUATE) program! Those shopping for a Sentra, Altima, Xterra,
Pathfinder, or Frontier may also be eligible for $500 grad cash. For
details, go to NissanUSA.com/collegegrad.
At Nissan, we are committed to a high level of customer service.
Sincerely,
Nissan North America
---- Original Message ----
From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject : I would like additional information about Nissan products.
[INTR:130793]
Date : Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:13:10 GMT
<firstname>Lawrence</firstname>
<lastname>Rhodes</lastname>
<email>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</email>
<workphone>415-821-3539</workphone>
<homephone>--</homephone>
<address1>749 Moultrie Street</address1>
<address2></address2>
<city>San Francisco</city>
<state>CA</state>
<zip>94110</zip>
<owner>false</owner>
<comments>Your Altra EV was the most advanced electric vehicle in the
world manufactrued my a major car company. What happened to it? I would
be interested in one in any condition. Thank you. Lawrence
Rhodes.......</comments>
<make>Nissan</make>
<source>NissanContactUs</source>
<vin>I owned a 1967wagon</vin>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's none of my business, but I want to ask all American EV'ers to use
their vote to get rid of Bush. Please!
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
I could have made this nominally on-topic by mentioning the CARB
lawsuit or something, but it'd only lead to a flamewar, so I'll admit
it's off-topic and ask that you reply off list. Sorry if this annoys
anyone.
this link is worth a read: http://scientistsandengineersforchange.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://rsise.anu.edu.au/~luke/xr4000batbal.html
how about using a power transistor to "amplify" the current capacity of
the zener
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just got this E mail from Paul the guy who makes the kit cars ,
http://www.paulsexotics.com/Electric%20car%20conv.htm
they Sound to good to be true to me, with a 4000 amp continuous discharge
Maybe Lawrence has also been dreaming about batteries :-)
Steve Clunn
Advanced Battery Factory(Sino-America Joint Venture)
Add: JinXiu JiangNan, Shen Zhen, Guang Dong Province, China.
Phone: 86-133-5290-6882( 24 hours a day, 365 days a year)
FAX: 86-755-2806-9219
Website: www.splendidbattery.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Specification Sheet of Li-polymer Battery Pack 148V/400Ah
Main application: electric-vehicle and military applications
Li-polymer battery 148V/400Ah
Max. continuous discharging current
4000A
Max. continuous power
673Kw
Max. pulse discharging current
5000A for 3 second.
Max. pulse power
840 Kw
Max. recommend continuous charging current:
400A (for 14.8/400Ah)
Total weight
Approx. 400Kg
(While the weight of lead acid battery
148V/400Ah is about 1600Kg!!!!!)
Total Volume:
Approx. 1.2CBM
Lowest cut-off-voltage controlled by BMS
108V
Highest charged voltage controlled by the built-in BMS:
170V
Highest temperature battery can tolerate
90?
Self-discharge
Less than 3% per month.
Internal resistance upon fully charged
Less than 15 mili Ohme.
Cycle life
More than 1500 cycles with 60% DOD
More than 1200 cycles with 80% DOD
More than 1000 cycles with 100% DOD
DOD-depth of discharge
Wrapping
Durable silicon rubber and with color white, pink, red, yellow, blue,
purple, black etc. available
Safety:
No fire, no explosion, no smoke, no short-circuit .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
great , just after i buy a new etek motor better things turn up
my etek bike project is however coming along nicely and should be on the road for the
spring if it ever stops raining here in wales
incidentaly i have give up on the curtis controller and have ordered a alltrax instead
regards
richard
bholmber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was surfing along for information on E-tek motors and ran across this
battle bot site. Apparently there is a German company (PERM motor) that
builds motors comparable to Etek weight and size, but are rated for a lot
more power. Here are some of the specifications:
Perm Motor PMG 132 Specifications:
Voltage: 24-72 V
Weight: 24.8 lb
Angular-velocity constant: 50.2 rpm/V
Torque constant: 27 ozf.in/A
Terminal resistance: 0.025 Ohm
No-load current: 6A
Rotor Inertia: 1370 oz.in2
Inductance: 19 ?H
Continuous current: 110 A
10 minute current: 200 A
Terminals: 8 mm
48 V Performance
Peak efficiency: 86 %
Peak power:* 15.1 hp
No-load angular velocity:* 2380 r/min
Stall current:* 960A
Stall torque:* 25600 ozf.in
72 V Performance
Peak efficiency: 88.6 %
Peak power:* 34.3 hp
No-load angular velocity:* 3590 r/min
Stall current:* 1440 A
Stall torque:* 38500 ozf.in
Pretty detailed information in PDF format is available at
http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_motors_perm.html
Also look at the Perm Motor PMG 080...4hp from a 7.5lb motor.
Hopefully this isn't a repeat...anyways, it was the first I had seen of
these motors. I'm getting pretty interested in doing a motorcycle
conversion now.
Any thoughts?
Brett
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Based on what I have seen with the Kokam batteries, these specs are not
unbelievable. Comments inserted:
I just got this E mail from Paul the guy who makes the kit cars ,
http://www.paulsexotics.com/Electric%20car%20conv.htm
they Sound to good to be true to me, with a 4000 amp continuous discharge
Maybe Lawrence has also been dreaming about batteries :-)
Steve Clunn
Advanced Battery Factory(Sino-America Joint Venture)
Add: JinXiu JiangNan, Shen Zhen, Guang Dong Province, China.
Phone: 86-133-5290-6882( 24 hours a day, 365 days a year)
FAX: 86-755-2806-9219
Website: www.splendidbattery.com e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Specification Sheet of Li-polymer Battery Pack 148V/400Ah
Main application: electric-vehicle and military applications
Li-polymer battery 148V/400Ah
Max. continuous discharging current
4000A
This is 10 C continuous. Kokam is rated 5 C continuous, 10C for 10 seconds.
Kokam sells a 20C continuous R/C battery, so the tech exists in smaller
forms.
Max. continuous power
673Kw
Um, 673000/4000 amps = 168.25 volts. Seems a little optomistic<G>. The
voltage should sag under load.
Max. pulse discharging current
5000A for 3 second.
Seems possible.
Max. pulse power
840 Kw
840,000 / 5000 amps = 168 volts. I would guess this is a 'marketing' number,
not tested. Real world, voltages sag under a 5000 amp load.
Max. recommend continuous charging current:
400A (for 14.8/400Ah)
1 C charge current matches what Kokam recommends.
Total weight
Approx. 400Kg
(While the weight of lead acid battery
148V/400Ah is about 1600Kg!!!!!)
40 cells (3.7 volts nominal), 400 amp-hrs each. 10 Kg each cell or 22 lbs.
Kokams are 3.6 lbs for 70 amp-hr cell, say 19.5 amp-hrs per pound. Splendid
says 22 lbs for 400 amp-hrs, say 18 amp-hrs per pound with BMS. Sounds
possible.
881 lbs. 59 kw-hrs. This is a very big battery. This would give some serious
range!
Total Volume:
Approx. 1.2CBM
Lowest cut-off-voltage controlled by BMS
108V
40 cells to 2.7 volts
Highest charged voltage controlled by the built-in BMS:
170V
40 cells to 4.2 volts = 168 volts
Highest temperature battery can tolerate
90?
Kokam says 70 Celsius
Self-discharge
Less than 3% per month.
We let the Kokam pack sit for over two months in hot humid Florida and the
self discharge was less than we could reliably measure. So this looks right.
Internal resistance upon fully charged
Less than 15 mili Ohme.
Don't know
Cycle life
More than 1500 cycles with 60% DOD
More than 1200 cycles with 80% DOD
More than 1000 cycles with 100% DOD
DOD-depth of discharge
Don't know. Kokam says 500+.
Wrapping
Durable silicon rubber and with color white, pink, red, yellow, blue,
purple, black etc. available
Safety:
No fire, no explosion, no smoke, no short-circuit .
Don't know.
From what I have seen from the Kokam batteries, these specs are for the most
part possible. Lithium Polymer batteries are amazing!
Of course, believable specs do not answer the question of whether
'Splendidbattery' are reliable. Will they deliver what they promise? Will
they provide a consistent quality battery? How much will these batteries
cost?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee, Steve, and All,
I wanted to offer some observations and comments on the scooter battery
issue and balancing. There are a couple questions thrown into the text as
well.
My scooter has two 10Ah batteries from China and they are a bit out of
kilter, but I think perhaps within a tolerable amount. I did a bulk charge
last night using the supplied charger from Currie Tech. It's a Schwinn S350
scooter, BTW.
When the voltage came up to 28.85, the red led went off and the yellow came
on. At 29.01 volts, the yellow light went off and the green light came on,
and the battery voltage eventually dipped down to 27.05. After about an hour
I rechecked and it had come back up to 27.15. I checked the batteries
individually and found one that was .4 volts below the other.
So, I grabbed a 12 V "smart charger", wall wart variety with LED's and
hooked it up to the low battery. This is the charger supplied by Ryobi when
I purchased my extra 12V 7Ah battery for my cordless trimmer. Within about
20 minutes, the wall charger LED had changed to green, but the finish
voltage was high @ 14.69. I guess that explains why my good Powersonic AGM's
that I used with my Ryobi cordless died so soon. I should have charged them
with my solar panels all the time. They got baked to death.
Well, anyway, my resting voltages this morning are 13.21 and 13.19, so I
guess that it helped.
Should I run another balance charge on the lower battery before using the
scooter again, or just do another balance charge after the next use?
This pack has been in service for about 5 months now and my odometer
reflects about 230 miles of use. When I need it charged quickly, I use my EV
Warrior charger. It has a bit too much inrush current for 10 Ah batteries
IMHO. It starts out at about 8.5 A and tapers down into sub 5 A country
after about 20 minutes. I have charged with it several times, usually I can
charge in two hours or less with it. The supplied switching supply charger
takes about 3-4 depending on DOD.
So, Bruce EVangel Parmenter, if you are following, my theory about following
manufacturers recommendations on initial inrush current may be a bit too
conservative. I suppose battery manufacturers should know best, but maybe
I've just had abnormally good results by varying away from the directed
path.
I use a regulated power supply from RS that I used to charge my batteries on
the ebike. I can adjust the final voltage internally with it. Many good 13.8
volt power supplies have a small trimmer pot inside. Constant voltage
charging seems to work nearly as well as constant current. I haven't really
rode or touched the biike since about a year ago. I checked the pack last
night for fun. I now have one battery that checks in at 8.5 volts, but all
the others are between 12.17 and 12.13. I made a special harness pair that
allowed my to connect and do my series interconnects BEFORE the battery
terminals and the charge adapter interconnects all back into parrallel, to
be charged at 13.8 volts with my regulated 13.8 v power supply. (8 batteries
total in a 48 volt buddy pair). Finish voltage is around 14.45 with this
supply. The bike was put into serivce in April or May of 2000 and has around
500 miles of use clocked on it's odometer.
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Would it be OK to mount an on-board charger in the passenger compartment
> > to use its cooling air to preheat the interior? Would it work?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Patrick
> > 1981 Jet Electrica
> ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi Pat an' All;
> > I plan on just that! My PFC 20 puts out a good amount of heat. Plan to
> mount it in the car, recirculating in the cabin, the cooling air, for the
> winter months, and overboard in the summer.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
Hi Pat, Bob and Others,
That's the really neat thing about EV's. All the stuff that can be used to
take advantage of any wasted energy. I wondered if anyone else had thoughts
like that, or if it was just my ~upstairs wiring~. :-))
I think that my perfect house floor plan would include flow-thru indoor EV
parking using two small roll-up garage doors with a maintenance area. Heck,
who needs a dining room anyway? I usually eat in the computer or living
rooms anyhow. That would be one way to combat battery temperature desparity.
Of course it might be a bit hazardous to charge indoors with flooded Pba's,
but the other half of the "perfect equation" includes SLA AGM's anyhow.
I had a dream too, it included a Bat Man style indoor turntable so I was
always driving in a forward direction coming out of the same door, just in
case I couldn't find a place to put the second door. I've been wondering
what I could do with all of these high voltage PM D.C. motors that seem to
be collecting. So far I have a treadmill motor, 90 V, a gigantic old buffer
motor that weighs about 50 pounds and has an 11 to 1 planetary gear
reduction unit mounted on it's output shaft and a very nice precision
controlled variety with a cool optical encoder so I could control rotation
time, speed and viewing angle with a simple computer interface device. ;-)
Hey, has anyone thought about building a solar fluid heater and using a
windsheild washer motor to circulate the heated fluid to a series of tubes
to keep your pack warm during the cold winter days while parked at home ro
work?? That's another one I came up with. Maybe we just have too much sun in
AZ,....or maybe I shouldn't stay out in it for such long periods?? LOL
What do you think?
TTYL!
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems Nissan is open to considering producing EV's in quantity. If you
are at all interested in having an EV please contact Nissan. Maybe all it
would take is a few thousand inquires to Nissan to get them to make a policy
of producing their Altra EV. A very fine vehicle to say the least. The
only Major Manufacturer produced Lithium ion powered EV. Lets change this
EV Dream into an EV Grin. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Could some of you nice people please contact all these people or
organizations with this email. I'm sure Ed Begley or Melanie Chartoff would
love to drive an Altra. I just don't have the time.........
American Lung Association
BMW
Ed Begley, Jr., Actor and Environmentalist
Valerie Bertinelli, Actor
Erik Bitterbaum, Pres. U. of VA, Campus at Parkersburg
CSRwire
California Fuel Cell Partnership
Melanie Chartoff, Actor
City of Kirkwood
Blythe Danner, Actor
Ted Danson, Actor
Dept. of Energy Ann Arbor Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Cleveland Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Chicago Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Denver Metro Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Kansas City Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Palm Springs Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Salt Lake City Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy San Joaquin Valley Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy St. Louis Regional Clean Cities
Dept. of Energy Truckee Meadows Clean Cities
East-West Gateway Council
Ener-chi
EV Association of Greater Washington
EV Rental Cars
Mike Farrell, Actor
Ford Motor Company
Beverly Garland, Actor
Linda Gray, Actor
Larry Hagman, Actor
Tom Hanks, Actor
Daryl Hannah, Actor
Congresswoman Jane Harman (D-Calif)
Valerie Harper, Actor
Gov. Gary Johnson (R-New Mexico)
Kansas City Missouri Health Dept.
Kansas City Missouri Water Services
Kansas Corn Commission
Kansas Corn Growers
Kansas Soybean Association
Kansas Wind Power
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio)
Calif. Sen. Sheila Kuehl
Laclede Gas
Missouri Clean American Fuels Alliance
Missouri Coalition for the Enviornment
Missouri/DNR Energy Center
National Biodiesel Board
National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition
National Renewable Energy Lab (NREL)
Michael Nouri, Actor
Edward James Olmos, Actor
Stan Ovshinsky, Ph.D., Pres. & CEO, ECD Ovonics
Palomar Mountain Spring Water
Gunter Pauli, Founder, Zero Emissions Research Initiative (ZERI)
Priority Parking, San Francisco and Sacramento
Bill Pullman, Actor
Peter Reckell, Actor
Recycle America Alliance
Jeremy Rifkin, Economist, Pres. Foundation on Economic Trends
Joseph Sargent, Film director
John Savage, Actor
Save the Planet USA
Scotts Printing
Sierra Club
Tom Skerritt, Actor
Stuart Energy
Jeffrey Tambor, Actor
NESEA Tour de Sol
Traversant Marketing, San Francisco
Congressman Mark Udall (D-Colorado)
Randy Udall, Pres., Community Office of Resource Efficiency
Union of Concerned Scientists
U.S. Department of Energy
T. Nejat Veziroglu, Ph.D., Pres., Int'l. Assoc. for Hydrogen Energy
Lindsay Wagner, Actor
Waking Up in America
Hank Wedaa, Pres. CA Hydrogen Bus. Council
Whole Foods
Boyd Willat
Roger Williams, Pianist
Winans International
Women of Washington
Gary Wright, Song writer
NRDC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This motor has been around for years (my bookmark of the site is >3 years
old.) The price is enough to cause cardiac vaporlock. One can buy two
ETEKs for the price of that larger one.
John
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:34:57 +0100 (BST), richard ball
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>great , just after i buy a new etek motor better things turn up
>my etek bike project is however coming along nicely and should be on the road for the
>spring if it ever stops raining here in wales
>incidentaly i have give up on the curtis controller and have ordered a alltrax instead
>regards
>richard
>
>bholmber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I was surfing along for information on E-tek motors and ran across this
>battle bot site. Apparently there is a German company (PERM motor) that
>builds motors comparable to Etek weight and size, but are rated for a lot
>more power. Here are some of the specifications:
>
>Perm Motor PMG 132 Specifications:
>Voltage: 24-72 V
>Weight: 24.8 lb
>Angular-velocity constant: 50.2 rpm/V
>Torque constant: 27 ozf.in/A
>Terminal resistance: 0.025 Ohm
>No-load current: 6A
>Rotor Inertia: 1370 oz.in2
>Inductance: 19 ?H
>Continuous current: 110 A
>10 minute current: 200 A
>Terminals: 8 mm
>
>48 V Performance
>Peak efficiency: 86 %
>Peak power:* 15.1 hp
>No-load angular velocity:* 2380 r/min
>Stall current:* 960A
>Stall torque:* 25600 ozf.in
>
>72 V Performance
>Peak efficiency: 88.6 %
>Peak power:* 34.3 hp
>No-load angular velocity:* 3590 r/min
>Stall current:* 1440 A
>Stall torque:* 38500 ozf.in
>
>Pretty detailed information in PDF format is available at
>http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_motors_perm.html
>
>Also look at the Perm Motor PMG 080...4hp from a 7.5lb motor.
>
>Hopefully this isn't a repeat...anyways, it was the first I had seen of
>these motors. I'm getting pretty interested in doing a motorcycle
>conversion now.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Brett
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just got this E mail from Paul the guy who makes the kit cars ,
> http://www.paulsexotics.com/Electric%20car%20conv.htm
> they Sound to good to be true to me, with a 4000 amp continuous discharge
> Maybe Lawrence has also been dreaming about batteries :-)
> Steve Clunn
This is very close to something I was looking to do. I took a look at the site, and I
have to
wonder, are these numbers right? Here a blurb from the site;
> Porsche 959 style Electric car. Purpose built to be light and quick. For the
> commuter*.
> 13 spiral tech AGM batteries, Kostov 11" motor, 1000 amp controller, 4 speed.
> Approximate 50 mile range (upgradable to possibly over 200 miles with Li-ion
> batteries),
> 85 mph top speed... much more with a battery upgrade. 18" OEM Turbo Twist wheels.
> $29,000 Fast high end charger charges 85% in 20 min.
Can he do all this? 13 AGMs, 50 mile range, 85 mph, 20 min charge to 85%
And what will the price be with the Li-Ion upgrade?
I hope it's possible because I'm trying to do the same but with an AC system (higher
voltage, more
batteries) to take advantage of regen. And I can't afford to use a 911 donor.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Oct 22, 2004 at 09:33:10PM -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
> I was reading the BMS wiki tonight and saw a banner ad for the Escape
> Hybrid. The link is: http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/
I'm told mine is scheduled to arrive Nov. 10, FWIW...
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
This fall, we have the choice between a police state and a nanny state.
Both want most of our money and liberty, but the liberties one will take
are a lot more severe than the other...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That does indeed sound too good to be true.
But lets assume that what appears to be marketing BS really
is in fact true. How much would these cost? I'd love nothing
more than to be able to have a Li Ion pack for a conversion,
but not only does such a battery sound preposterously
far-fetched, if it were indeed real and lived up to those
figures, it sounds like it would be way out of my price
range in low volume production. And I generally think high
volume production for EVs won't happen for a long time, be
the reasons financial or political.
Keep us updated, Steve. This does have me intrigued, BS or
not.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like the idea of having one of those motors fitting a
single gear ratio, with said setup on each of a cars four
wheels.
But the price...
Way too high for my budget.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For aerodynamic data on the Toyota MR2(and its variations)
and many other cars, look at this site:
http://www.teknett.com/pwp/drmayf/tbls.htm
Most any car someone would convert to an EV has its aero
data on that site.
Maybe I should make a database of possible donor vehicles,
and give aero, transmission, and dry weight data. It would
save people a lot of time...
Good luck with your project. It will be a while before I get
one on the road, but when I do, it will be terrorizing the
neighborhood and perhaps nearby back roads. :)
>I mentioned the MR2 simply because I know it to be
>light (and not too
>expensive used). I haven't been able to find much
>information about the
>aero dynamics. Of the two, the MR2 is clearly the
>cheaper and more
>practical solution.
>
>Do all the different variants/models of the MR2 have
>good aerodynamics?
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--- Begin Message ---
Looking at the topic "Interesting Motor" got me thinking
about how nice it would be to have a permanent magnet DC
motor and the proper controller system available to the
hobbyist market.
I remember Zytec, with their electric Lotus Elise, and how
they had made for its use 100 horsepower PM motors, two of
them. They were small, weighting only 28 pounds each. Both
motors and the control system, with a 300V pack of NiCd
cells, got the car from 0-60 in < 6 seconds. Too bad such a
setup in low volume production was in excess of $120,000.
The motor/controller setup was used in the Bluebird electric
racecar.
I'd be looking for a PM motor setup of at least 130 peak
horsepower and 30 continuous horsepower. As its efficiency
rivals that of an AC setup, it would easily allow a Triumph
Spitfire with a 240V pack of Orbitals a 50 mile range at 60
MPH.
Anyone know of permanent magnet DC motors used in hobbyist
conversions, and if so, where can I get them? I'd love to
know the options available, if any.
If they're too pricey, it would make more sense to go with
an AC setup, but I don't think 106 horsepower(And such a
heavy battery pack needed to get the rated voltage for that
system for that horsepower) is adequate enough for my wants,
unless I were to have batteries capable of giving me > 80
miles range at highway speeds while keeping weight down. But
we all know what went on with the Evertrolls.
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I hear often of people on this list and elsewhere claiming
how their EV gets 200 wh/mile or less at 60 mph speeds, with
these vehicles being cars like Geo Metros and Ford Escorts.
Then of course, there is Cocconi's CRX of long ago, going ~
100 miles per charge at highway speeds on 1,260 pounds of
Optimas. Or the Solectria Force, having consumption levels <
180 wh/mile at highway speeds.
Going through calculations, this doesn't at all possible
with a fully stock body.
So is this merely bragging, or have people performed
significant aerodynamic mods on their cars?
And if the latter, what tricks have members of this list
used to decrease aerodynamic drag?
I've heard of full belly pans and have studied the tricks
mentioned in "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle", such as
covering the grille of the car and using a file to round off
any rough edges, but it doesn't seem like that would have
such a drastic effect on vehicle aerodynamics. Maybe reduce
the coefficient drag an extra 10% overall.
What about reducing brake drag and steering drag? How have
people done this, as it appears this has a nasty habit of
heavily eating away at range.
I'm curious to know what sort of body, brake, and steering
modifications people have done to their EVs to eek out more
range, and for any guesses on how drastic an outcome these
modifications have had. On top of that, I'd be curious to
know how much it would cost to undertake said modifications.
I'd love nothing more than to be able to get energy
consumption down to under 200 wh/mile at 60 mph speeds, and
have even greater efficiency slowing down just a little, if
the need arises. So far, my calculated efficiency, assuming
a Cd of .42, frontal area of 15.5 square feet,
brake/steering drag coefficient of .0041, curb weight of
2,600 pounds, and tire rolling resistance coefficient of
0095, is between 260-280 wh/mile at 60 MPH. Reducing this
would drastically improve range and somewhat improve 1/4
mile time. With a lower current draw, it would also
positively affect the amount of usable Ah I have in the
battery pack I'm looking at, given Peukert's effects. Since
I'm planning on using 20 Orbitals, every buit of efficiency
I can squeeze out counts.
But 260-280 wh/mile seems a bit much for such a small car
and with aerodynamics better than what Geo Metros and Jet
Electrias have stock. Low rolling resistance tires with
coefficients of rolling resistance of about .007 would only
reduce this consumption by 15-20 wh/mile.
What about reducing weight? My glider weight is going to be
about 1,380 pounds with only removing the ICE-related
components and their ancillaries. I intend eventually to use
a fiberglass LeMans bonnet, fiberglass doors, fiberglass
trunck, and lightweight replacements for glass windows. But
before then, what can I do? I'm looking at removing any and
all sound deadener, removing the stock seats and replacing
them with lighter ones, and fabricating a custom interior as
I do not like the wood panel dash, and want something at
least a little lighter and more bare. I figure through
eliminating sound deadener and changing seats/trim alone, I
can siphon off 75-100 pounds or so.
Anything in particular that I should keep my eye on when it
comes to weight, however? I've noticed that somehow,
conversion companies manage to get EVs to be 400-500 pounds
lighter than the hobbyists manage. There has to be some
trick they are using, or perhaps custom parts.
If I can get the horsepower requirements at 60 MPH < 15
horsepower, I'd be set for some decent range.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Li-ions, it's how you do the cells,
interconnects, plates, ect that set the power
available just like it does in lead batts.
And as Cliff said, their specs do conform to
other known li-ion batts mostly so not that hard to
believe. It's a big battery!!!!
Right now it's only the newness of the tech,
demand, that keeps prices high. The chemicals were
just developed and and manufacturing has to ramp up
and it's about doubling each yr. But they are not
expensive so should come down fairly quickly as
manufacturing ramps up. Lets hope so!
Between the price of oil, closed over $55 Friday,
and Bush's stupid economic policies the world economy
will slow a lot more next yr should relieve demand so
prices can fall.
> For aerodynamic data on the Toyota MR2(and its
> variations)
> and many other cars, look at this site:
>
> http://www.teknett.com/pwp/drmayf/tbls.htm
>
> Most any car someone would convert to an EV has its
> aero
> data on that site.
Thanks, I bookmarked it.
The early 90's MR2 came in at .310 CD which is
fairly good.
I saw a picture of a 93 hardtop and it seemed
fairly good aero and with a few tricks should be able
to get about 10-20% better.
As far as his need for 80-100 mile range I forgot
about Ni-cads, that a pack of 180 amphr units of 96vdc
or 156vdc worth of 100 amphr units would get his range
with room to spare. And about the same weight, about
$8,000, ie $550kwhr. This is a 20 yr+ life batt pack
and well tested tech. Mine are 30 yrs old and still
putting out rated power!!
The ni-cads won't do 1,000 amps so a cheaper
controller could be used.
He could save a lot in the long run and cheaper
than Li-ions in the short run.
And no BMS, parallel pack, new tech, cold
weather problems.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Maybe I should make a database of possible donor
> vehicles,
> and give aero, transmission, and dry weight data. It
> would
> save people a lot of time...
>
> Good luck with your project. It will be a while
> before I get
> one on the road, but when I do, it will be
> terrorizing the
> neighborhood and perhaps nearby back roads. :)
>
> >I mentioned the MR2 simply because I know it to be
> >light (and not too
> >expensive used). I haven't been able to find much
> >information about the
> >aero dynamics. Of the two, the MR2 is clearly the
> >cheaper and more
> >practical solution.
> >
> >Do all the different variants/models of the MR2
> have
> >good aerodynamics?
>
>
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
As far as his need for 80-100 mile range I forgot
about Ni-cads, that a pack of 180 amphr units of 96vdc
or 156vdc worth of 100 amphr units would get his range
with room to spare. And about the same weight, about
$8,000, ie $550kwhr. This is a 20 yr+ life batt pack
and well tested tech. Mine are 30 yrs old and still
putting out rated power!!
The ni-cads won't do 1,000 amps so a cheaper
controller could be used.
Why Ni-Cds when Ni-HMs are so cheap, have higher power densities, have
no memory effect, and are more friendly to the environment? I presume
there's a good reason though.
I'll continue lurking for now and attend the events that I can. There's
still a lot I need to learn before committing time and money.
Thanks!
Tommy
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--- Begin Message ---
Is there a way the excess current could be used to increase the charging
of the other batteries i the string?
Mike G.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
http://rsise.anu.edu.au/~luke/xr4000batbal.html
how about using a power transistor to "amplify" the current capacity
of the zener
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I hear often of people on this list and elsewhere
> claiming
> how their EV gets 200 wh/mile or less at 60 mph
> speeds, with
> these vehicles being cars like Geo Metros and Ford
> Escorts.
> Then of course, there is Cocconi's CRX of long ago,
> going ~
> 100 miles per charge at highway speeds on 1,260
> pounds of
> Optimas. Or the Solectria Force, having consumption
> levels <
> 180 wh/mile at highway speeds.
Those are probably true.
>
> Going through calculations, this doesn't at all
> possible
> with a fully stock body.
Depends on the car!!!!!!!!! Some cars are good,
other well!
>
> So is this merely bragging, or have people performed
> significant aerodynamic mods on their cars?
Both.
>
> And if the latter, what tricks have members of this
> list
> used to decrease aerodynamic drag?
>
> I've heard of full belly pans and have studied the
> tricks
> mentioned in "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle", such
> as
> covering the grille of the car and using a file to
> round off
> any rough edges, but it doesn't seem like that would
> have
> such a drastic effect on vehicle aerodynamics. Maybe
> reduce
> the coefficient drag an extra 10% overall.
Depending on the car you can do even 20-25%
reduction in aero drag by the ways you say but each
model is different.
>
> What about reducing brake drag and steering drag?
> How have
> people done this, as it appears this has a nasty
> habit of
> heavily eating away at range.
Yes they can. Some do steering to neutral or in
front wheel drive car use a little tow out so when the
wheels are driven the slack comes back to nuetral.
On brakes a good cleaning and sometimes retraction
springs, clips help keep brakes from draining range.
>
> I'm curious to know what sort of body, brake, and
> steering
> modifications people have done to their EVs to eek
> out more
> range, and for any guesses on how drastic an outcome
> these
> modifications have had. On top of that, I'd be
> curious to
> know how much it would cost to undertake said
> modifications.
Usually little as it's mostly labor, yours I
hope, instead of paying for it. Clips, springs, sheet
metal are fairly cheap.
Tires are another good area.
>
> I'd love nothing more than to be able to get energy
> consumption down to under 200 wh/mile at 60 mph
> speeds, and
> have even greater efficiency slowing down just a
> little, if
> the need arises. So far, my calculated efficiency,
> assuming
> a Cd of .42, frontal area of 15.5 square feet,
> brake/steering drag coefficient of .0041, curb
> weight of
> 2,600 pounds, and tire rolling resistance
> coefficient of
> 0095, is between 260-280 wh/mile at 60 MPH. Reducing
> this
> would drastically improve range and somewhat improve
> 1/4
You could have picked a more aero car to begin
with! .42CD is fairly high drag now days. Cut that by
1/3rd by switching gliders!!
It would have helped to know which yr, model it is.
Other things like lighter seats, removing sound
deadening, floor matts, spare tire, ect.
Replace the outside mirrors with smaller, more aero
units, replace windows with Lexan and make them flush
with the body, narrow tires with fairings, vortex
strips to make air seperate at the rear, ect.
> mile time. With a lower current draw, it would also
> positively affect the amount of usable Ah I have in
> the
> battery pack I'm looking at, given Peukert's
> effects. Since
> I'm planning on using 20 Orbitals, every buit of
> efficiency
> I can squeeze out counts.
Not the battery for range!!!!!!!! Floodeds give
15-25% more range for the weight than AGM's.
I'd only use them for racing, short range sport or
a booster pack for li-ions. Not for long range.
>
> But 260-280 wh/mile seems a bit much for such a
> small car
> and with aerodynamics better than what Geo Metros
> and Jet
What looks like aero to most people isn't!!! It's
in the details.
> Electrias have stock. Low rolling resistance tires
> with
> coefficients of rolling resistance of about .007
> would only
> reduce this consumption by 15-20 wh/mile.
Every little bit helps! That's how you do it.
>
> What about reducing weight? My glider weight is
> going to be
> about 1,380 pounds with only removing the
That's pretty good, what kind of car is it?
> ICE-related
> components and their ancillaries. I intend
> eventually to use
> a fiberglass LeMans bonnet, fiberglass doors,
> fiberglass
> trunck, and lightweight replacements for glass
> windows. But
> before then, what can I do? I'm looking at removing
> any and
> all sound deadener, removing the stock seats and
> replacing
> them with lighter ones, and fabricating a custom
> interior as
> I do not like the wood panel dash, and want
> something at
> least a little lighter and more bare. I figure
There is little lighter than wood! My body-frame
of wood only weighs 250 lbs. In metal it would be
almost twice that.
If a convertible, build, buy an aero hard top.
> through
> eliminating sound deadener and changing seats/trim
> alone, I
> can siphon off 75-100 pounds or so.
>
> Anything in particular that I should keep my eye on
> when it
> comes to weight, however? I've noticed that somehow,
> conversion companies manage to get EVs to be 400-500
> pounds
> lighter than the hobbyists manage. There has to be
> some
> trick they are using, or perhaps custom parts.
>
> If I can get the horsepower requirements at 60 MPH <
> 15
> horsepower, I'd be set for some decent range.
>
It sounds like you have a good idea of what's
needed but you seem to need a different, more aero car
as a starting point like a VW Ghia, early MR2, early
RX-7, ect.
Then start your drag reduction from there and
you'll be happier, go a lot farther.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Oct 2004 at 21:47, Brown, Jay wrote:
> Can you run two controllers in parallel to the same motor to get a higher
> amperage?
I don't think they'd play nicely together, but I might be wrong.
But I recall seeing a rig that had the same effect several years ago. The
controllers weren't actually paralleled. IIRC, the motor was modified so
that it was essentially two motors in one (split rotor).
Running a little behind on the list email. Sorry. Things are busy here.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Their talk was the talk of sordid buccaneers: it was
reckless without hardihood, greedy without audacity,
and cruel without courage; there was not an atom of
foresight ... in the whole batch of them, and they did
not seem aware these things are wanted for the work of
the world.
-- Joseph Conrad, "Heart of Darkness"
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