EV Digest 3911
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: PB-6 Potbox Switches
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Modular Charger
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Modular Charger
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zivan Charger Reprogramming
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zivan Charger Reprogramming
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Gogo is a no-go...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Zivan Charger Reprogramming
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) IEEE power & energy mag. Nov./Dec issue.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) New power Wheels project help needed.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by Andrew Paulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New power Wheels project help needed.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> On a PB-6 potbox, does the N.O. prong function just the opposite of the N.C.
> prong? That is, does it pass current when the throttle is resting in the
> full off position (pressing the microswitch), and block current when the
> throttle is pulled away from the microswitch? Thanks.
Yes.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dean and All,
Your charging system sounds great Dean, as you know I've been
using a similar system for many years with great success. In fact I
attribute the long life I'm getting from my pack to the charging system
more than anything else.
> However, you do need to check the chargers periodically to make
> sure their settings haven't drifted.
That's a great idea, but circumstances have kept me from ever
taking the time to check mine. I have a feeling that they are staying
pretty close though, since the pack voltage at end of charge has never
changed, other than the 1 volt drift that I get from the summer/winter
temperature cycle.
Me:
"The only problem I've ever had with it...."
Bill Dube':
"Ok, here it comes"
Me:
"....is from a couple of the fast on connectors. This problem
is....believe it or not..... in a roundabout kind of a way.....
all Bill Dube's fault!" There have been a few times over the
years when the 'charging' LED on a circuit would flicker a
bit then go steady after a while. I've reseated the offending
connector a few times over the years to correct that.
Bill Dube'
"Hey, how is that =my= fault!"
Me:
"I have a large stock of connectors that I use, they have
bare ends, but I always cover them with heat shrink.
Bill was in my garage seeing this and asked me why I
didn't just get the ones that were covered in plastic....
like this one" (holding out a connector from his supply kit)
Well, when it came time to wire up my charging system
I was buying some supplies and decided to be fancy like
Bill Dube' and buy a bunch of the covered connectors. Well
the idea was great, but the connectors I bought weren't that
good, you know the ones, really hard to push on, then they
*snap* into place and are loose. I modified them slightly with
gentle crimping, and overall they've been fine considering all
the weather the car's been out in, the amount of time it's been,
etc. But....I plan on hard-wiring all of that and then using some
really high quality connectors elswhere in the system.
I do have the voltage set a bit lower then what might be
considered typical, but make up for it with increased charging time.
Like your setup Dean, it's also plug and forget, which is great!
And with the holidays right around the corner, it's nice being
able to just pop the hood on the car and instantly have a nice
animated, red, yellow, and green flickering light show out in front
of the house.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since we seem to be in "brain storming" mode on this topic...... I've been
using a Schumacher deep cycle charger for two years, bought retail from an
auto parts store for $35 + tax. The control board has all discrete
components: 8 small transistors, 12 resistors, one rectifier, one power
transistor. I don't know how it works, but it seems to be more than a
simple taper charger. It hold 10 to 12 amps for most of the charging cycle,
only tapering back to 2 amps in the last 30 minutes, and then cuts itself
off and turns on a green light. I've used it on singe 55 Ahr AGM's and two
in parallel. The batteries always have about 13 volts charge when its done
(measured 24 hours later). Might be possible to reverse engineer the
circuit. Or buy retail as many as you need, throw away the bulky cases, and
re-mount everything in a convenient box.......
Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart"
> Mike Chancey wrote:
> > Who is using modular chargers (one charger per battery) and how
> > well have they worked out?
>
> I've done it on and off. The big problem is to find a *reliable* modular
> charger.
...........
> That's going
> to be expensive!
...........
> expensive (like $150 each).
...........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
But, no one provided any concrete data to back up their claims.
I was quite convinced -- not that this understanding is an opinion, it's a
fact based on scientific ideals, that we must all discover -- by Neon John's
theory and experimentation. I would be curious what the original inquirer
thinks at this point.
I would encourage others to do the experiment for themselves, too.
Or provide data to support your opinions.
Not all of us have the physical resources to do that. Theory is universal,
however, and in my experience applies *very* well to electromagnetics.
No one has responded to my second post, below (seems a common trend). The
cause of the problem seems very obvious to me, but not the solution. I
provided some scientific explanation and some data, collected by others,
while trying to establish which sources were most trustworthy. If I can be
proved wrong I would very much like to know it as I am trying to educate
myself and others on this science.
I do think this topic relates quite well to the infrastructure of EVs
(tripping breakers, accessory electronics, etc.) and it should be continued.
- Art
A couple points first,
The inrush being attributed the residual magnitizim from the last time
it was operated is Bunk. If this was true, the fact of turn on and
turning
off a transformer would dramaticly change the permanent magnetism
effects.
Some days your hammer would stick to the transformer some it would not.
And
this never happens in the real world.
The hammer will never stick, no matter what. The magnetic field is
contained by the loop of the transformer! It can't escape besides
leakage! Put a C-lam around a normal magnet and it will do the same. Try
it with a bar magnet (and good luck getting it off). Besides, I think
John's research sort of speaks for itself. Ironically I just "learned"
about this all in class yesterday.
And 2 the Zero crossing solid state relay was designed to reduce the
inrush
in inductive loads. So... it was designed to reduce this effect. Knowing
the
solid state Physics... if fun.... but Just knowing what works and what
does
not is more important.
Something I found with a quick Google search:
http://relays.globalspec.com/Industrial-Directory/solid_state_relay
- The model RVM is a rugged family of power controller available in three
- phase and single phase versions rated for 40 amps at 660 VAC. The Model
- RVM offers zero cross firing for fixed resistance loads, which is almost
silent
- in operation and can eliminate the switch-on surge by operating in
- synchronization with the supply without degrading the electrical
environment.
Followed by this:
http://www.ab.com/industrialcontrols/products/relays_timers_and_temp_controllers/solid-state_relays/pdf/700-sh.pdf ,
page 7
- A SSR with a zero cross function operates when an AC load voltage
reaches
- the zero point or its vicinity. This reduces clicking noises when the
load is
- switched, and minimizes the influence of an inductive load, such as a
lamp,
- heater, or motor, on the power supply because the inrush current of the
load is
- reduced. This can also minimize the scale of the inrush current
protection circuit.
Since when was a lamp or heater an inductive load? A motor has a power
factor of usually >0.8 at least at steady state. That's pretty far from 0
(cos 90). "Inductive" at 20kHz, yes, but not 60Hz.
There's more...Pheonix Contact, Allegro Micro, very trusted sources:
http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/phoenix/relay5.htm
- AC load-switching SSRs function best when they're able to turn the
circuit
- OFF when the AC wave passes through the zero point, when both voltage
- and current are at or very close to zero. This technique is called zero
- crossing or zero switching.
(I did not capitalize the "OFF" - it was that way in the page.) This is
what I said in my last post. If you turn off the transformer when there
is only the Br (top/bottom of the hysteresis when H=0) left, you at least
improve the situation. Plus it's easy.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea that's way too much current.
The MK1 would fry trying to take that much current on.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 6:23 PM
Subject: Zivan Charger Reprogramming
> HI folks,
>
> Who is handling Zivan chargers and servicing now?
>
> I am finally getting my Civic conversion back on the road and I think my
> Zivan NG5 needs to be reprogrammed to better match the current battery
> pack. I originally had the car equipped with 26 EV-1 Delphi 12 Volt
> batteries in buddy pairs, for a 156 volt nominal setup. The Zivan was
> programmed for a double string of Optima Yellow Tops. Charge at 22.5 Amps
> until pack voltage reaches 188 Volts, (14.46 V per battery) then hold 188
> Volts till the current drops to 4.6 Amps, then hold current at 4.6 Amps
for
> 1 hour, max voltage limit 216 Volts (16.6 V per battery).
Here is the issue 16.6 volt cap is too high. This pretty much garentees
a gassing battery, if not the whole string.
I don't let my YTs get over 15.5 for any reason. A correctly running
PFC charger and Mk2Reg.. A or B... will also cap this issue. But you need
the Regbuss to chop the current if the regs get over abused.
With a carfull tweak of the peak voltage, and constant 15 min of
equalization on each charge, this is also do able without The RegBuss feed
back. BUT... you have to tweak the votlage, and error on the side of low
voltage.
>
> The car is now equipped with a single string of blem Dynasty 12-370 12
Volt
> 100 AH AGM UPS batteries. These show a max charge current of 20 Amps and
> an "equalization and cycle service charging voltage" of 14.4 to 14.8
> Volts. I suppose the 22.5 Amps isn't enough higher than the recommended
20
> to produce too much of a problem, but what about equalization? What would
> be appropriate? 4.6 Amps during equalization may have had something to do
> with the problems I have seen with both my Rudman MK1 regs and the
> PowerCheq equalizers and the early demise of the Delphis. Isn't that way
> too much equalizing current? Anyone have any recommendations?
>
Yea drop the hardwired current, and just rely on the hard wired voltage
limits. Use Reg if you can. Setting Down to 180 volts is a good safety idea,
but you risk a long equalization time to get all the batteries fully
charged.
Current with out voltage limits is Suiside for any Sealed battery system.
I have a LOT of hardware, and a LOT Of battery life staked on this concept.
IT works !
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 12:27 PM
Subject: Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
> Hi all,
>
> > But, no one provided any concrete data to back up their claims.
>
> I was quite convinced -- not that this understanding is an opinion, it's a
> fact based on scientific ideals, that we must all discover -- by Neon
John's
> theory and experimentation. I would be curious what the original inquirer
> thinks at this point.
>
> > I would encourage others to do the experiment for themselves, too.
> > Or provide data to support your opinions.
>
> Not all of us have the physical resources to do that. Theory is
universal,
> however, and in my experience applies *very* well to electromagnetics.
>
> No one has responded to my second post, below (seems a common trend). The
> cause of the problem seems very obvious to me, but not the solution. I
> provided some scientific explanation and some data, collected by others,
> while trying to establish which sources were most trustworthy. If I can
be
> proved wrong I would very much like to know it as I am trying to educate
> myself and others on this science.
>
> I do think this topic relates quite well to the infrastructure of EVs
> (tripping breakers, accessory electronics, etc.) and it should be
continued.
>
> - Art
>
>
> >> A couple points first,
> >> The inrush being attributed the residual magnitizim from the last
time
> >> it was operated is Bunk. If this was true, the fact of turn on and
> >> turning
> >> off a transformer would dramaticly change the permanent magnetism
> >> effects.
> >> Some days your hammer would stick to the transformer some it would not.
> >> And
> >> this never happens in the real world.
> >
> > The hammer will never stick, no matter what. The magnetic field is
> > contained by the loop of the transformer! It can't escape besides
> > leakage! Put a C-lam around a normal magnet and it will do the same.
Try
> > it with a bar magnet (and good luck getting it off). Besides, I think
> > John's research sort of speaks for itself. Ironically I just "learned"
> > about this all in class yesterday.
Oh really??? fire up a transformer, and apply the hammer... YOU will get a
LOT of stick, and so will everything in it's vicinity... The Efforts used to
quite down the 120 HZ humm from normal transformers is rather comprehensive.
Yea most of the magnetic field is contained in the lams, but not all. And
certialy not the fields that are generated outside of the lam stack, and in
the feed lines and Secondard cables.
So permag effects are enginneered out of transformer Steel. Check the
hysterisis curves of Silicon Steel. It's a rather well documented feature
of any magnetic material. I have Books full of this for Powdered iron cores.
Want data???? Go look it up Micrometals.com.
> >
> >> And 2 the Zero crossing solid state relay was designed to reduce the
> >> inrush
> >> in inductive loads. So... it was designed to reduce this effect.
Knowing
> >> the
> >> solid state Physics... if fun.... but Just knowing what works and what
> >> does
> >> not is more important.
> >
> > Something I found with a quick Google search:
> >
> > http://relays.globalspec.com/Industrial-Directory/solid_state_relay
> >
> > - The model RVM is a rugged family of power controller available in
three
> > - phase and single phase versions rated for 40 amps at 660 VAC. The
Model
> > - RVM offers zero cross firing for fixed resistance loads, which is
almost
> > silent
> > - in operation and can eliminate the switch-on surge by operating in
> > - synchronization with the supply without degrading the electrical
> > environment.
> >
> > Followed by this:
> >
> >
http://www.ab.com/industrialcontrols/products/relays_timers_and_temp_controllers/solid-state_relays/pdf/700-sh.pdf
,
> > page 7
> >
> > - A SSR with a zero cross function operates when an AC load voltage
> > reaches
> > - the zero point or its vicinity. This reduces clicking noises when the
> > load is
> > - switched, and minimizes the influence of an inductive load, such as a
> > lamp,
> > - heater, or motor, on the power supply because the inrush current of
the
> > load is
> > - reduced. This can also minimize the scale of the inrush current
> > protection circuit.
> >
> > Since when was a lamp or heater an inductive load? A motor has a power
> > factor of usually >0.8 at least at steady state. That's pretty far from
0
> > (cos 90). "Inductive" at 20kHz, yes, but not 60Hz.
> >
Hold it Cowboy!!! .8 at steady state.
And reread the motor tag, it lists the PF at FULL RATED LOAD, and name plate
rpm, HZ, and amps, and volts.
Figure 10x that for startup.
And just what does it take to get to steady state???? LIKE it HAS to start
from Zero. At rest you have NO Back emf, ALOT of slip(like %100), and a lot
of rotor weight that takes, 100s of cycles to bring it up to freespin. VERY
inductive... it's what keeps the inrush from wreaking the mains.
There are too many points here to hammer home...
And I am not sure who I am arguing with right now... this thread is getting
long.
But...rethink what is happening... and when.
> > There's more...Pheonix Contact, Allegro Micro, very trusted sources:
> >
> > http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/phoenix/relay5.htm
> >
> > - AC load-switching SSRs function best when they're able to turn the
> > circuit
> > - OFF when the AC wave passes through the zero point, when both voltage
> > - and current are at or very close to zero. This technique is called
zero
> > - crossing or zero switching.
> >
> > (I did not capitalize the "OFF" - it was that way in the page.) This is
> > what I said in my last post. If you turn off the transformer when there
> > is only the Br (top/bottom of the hysteresis when H=0) left, you at
least
> > improve the situation. Plus it's easy.
>
Really simple...You can buy zero crossing Solid state relays, and you can
get one that is inductive load rated. Both are not the same as a inrush
limited motor starter. Switch gear for motor starting and transformer
controls are a different beast. And cost a LOT more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:27:47 -0500, "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>> But, no one provided any concrete data to back up their claims.
>
>I was quite convinced -- not that this understanding is an opinion, it's a
>fact based on scientific ideals, that we must all discover -- by Neon John's
>theory and experimentation. I would be curious what the original inquirer
>thinks at this point.
>
>> I would encourage others to do the experiment for themselves, too.
>> Or provide data to support your opinions.
>
>Not all of us have the physical resources to do that. Theory is universal,
>however, and in my experience applies *very* well to electromagnetics.
True.
There are some experimental things you can do without much in the way of
resources. You can, for example, pulse a small transformer with DC to
simulate the turn-off transient that magnetizes the core and then cut the
core with a hack saw. You will find a decent magnetic field across the
gap. The act of cutting the gap will reduce the residual magnetism
significantly.
A common trick with Tesla Coilers is to cut the core of a variac to turn
it into a high amperage variable choke that won't saturate. It is usual
to cut the core between the ends of the winding. Again, a fairly strong
field can sometimes be found across the gap, depending on how the Variac
was de-energized last. If you try to use a cut variac as a variac, you'll
find that the voltage regulation vs load is gone, that it won't thump or
trip breakers when energized and will make a LOT of noise.
>
>No one has responded to my second post, below (seems a common trend). The
>cause of the problem seems very obvious to me, but not the solution. I
>provided some scientific explanation and some data, collected by others,
>while trying to establish which sources were most trustworthy. If I can be
>proved wrong I would very much like to know it as I am trying to educate
>myself and others on this science.
Well, I scanned your post and found it quite adequate - no need to
comment. I didn't comment on the others because I try my best not to get
in pissing contests on the net.
One of the best places to find free info on this phenomena is on
electrical apparatus web sites. Just a couple of weeks ago I was reading
a white paper on how modern protective relaying and fast vacuum breakers
can do zero switching to avoid energizing transients. I think I was on
the Phillips web site but it might have been GE. There is a lot more info
available if you're willing to pay or go to an engineering university's
library.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, so back to my original question. Who can readjust the Zivan NG5? Is
there anything adjustable at my end?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for replying Rich. This is very educational! and the best part of
the EV-List, IMHO.
And I am not sure who I am arguing with right now...
this thread is getting long.
I think this is very important for us as engineers, just as it is important
for us as citizens to save energy. I still think this is very much related
to EVs and their usage as I hate to go off-topic.
Oh really??? fire up a transformer, and apply the hammer... YOU will get a
LOT of stick, and so will everything in it's vicinity... The Efforts used
to
quite down the 120 HZ humm from normal transformers is rather
comprehensive.
Yea most of the magnetic field is contained in the lams, but not all. And
certialy not the fields that are generated outside of the lam stack, and
in
the feed lines and Secondard cables.
You're right; I underestimated the leakage (I did say besides leakage
though). Some is due to the wire, like you say, though. Toroids typically
exhibit less leakage, I believe, and I have mostly experimented with them at
60Hz. I think toroids have higher inrush current as well.
So permag effects are enginneered out of transformer Steel. Check the
hysterisis curves of Silicon Steel. It's a rather well documented feature
of any magnetic material. I have Books full of this for Powdered iron
cores.
Want data???? Go look it up Micrometals.com.
But it's exactly that - a hysteresis curve. Silicon steel is indeed one of
the best for remenance, but it isn't perfect. Just like 60Hz transformers
overheat at 50Hz, because designers really want to minimize the already
large number of turns, a small remenance can make a big difference. Adding
more turns to a transformer, I think, would help reduce this inrush because
saturation wouldn't be hit as easily.
I came across some great articles online:
Here is a very detailed one:
http://www.plitron.com/PDF/PETinrush.pdf
http://sound.westhost.com/xfmr2.htm :
--------------------------------------------------------------------
*Silicon Steel (General Information) *
Typically, soft (i.e. low remanence) magnetic steel will contain about 4% to
4.5% silicon, which lowers the remanence of the steel and reduces hysteresis
losses. Normal mild steel, carbon steel or pure iron has quite a high
remanence, and this is easily demonstrated by stroking a nail (or
screwdriver) with a magnet. The nail will become magnetised, and will
retain enough magnetism to enable it to pick up other nails. The addition
of silicon reduces this effect, and it is very difficult to magnetise a
transformer lamination strongly enough so it can pick things up.
This is not to say that the remanence is zero - far from it. When a
transformer is turned off, there will often be residual magnetism in the
core, and when next powered on, it is common for the transformer to make
noise - both toroids and E-I transformers can sometimes make a "boing" noise
when power is applied. That this phenomenon is intermittent is a
combination of several factors ...
o What was the polarity and magnitude of the mains at switch off
o What is the polarity and magnitude of the mains at switch on
o To what extent has the core de-magnetised itself between events
The longer a transformer is left unpowered, the lower the remanent flux, and
the less likelihood there is of an excessively high inrush current. If the
mains is applied when at it's peak value, inrush current is at it's lowest.
Conversely, if the mains is applied at the zero crossing point, inrush
current will be maximum - this is exactly the reverse of what you would
logically expect. The inrush current lasts for several cycles, and is made
much worse with a rectifier and filter capacitor on the output. The
capacitor is a short circuit when discharged, and large capacitors will take
longer to charge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
A side note for those who are curious: The optional button on your computer
monitor called "Degauss" is meant to remove remenance. The only way it can
do this is to apply a damped sinusoid.
> This reduces clicking noises when the load is switched,
> and minimizes the influence of an inductive load, such as a
> lamp, heater...
Hold it Cowboy!!! .8 at steady state.
But...rethink what is happening... and when.
Sorry, that was a terrible argument about the motor. I know *very* well
that you are right about the inductance and power factor. But you agree
that a heater and a lamp are mostly resistive, right?
- Art
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try State Farm. The have insured my Laher Cart from the 60's & the Lectra
MC. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael bearden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 8:53 PM
Subject: Gogo is a no-go...
Actually that subject heading is misleading...but catchy, no? The Gogo
drives around ok, but
I have two problems to solve:
1) Charging-I have a Lestronic II 48v charger, and in testing, it seems to
have higher settings for both voltage and current than I want to use on
Optimas. I put a series of four Optimas with RudmanMk? (LastYear) regs.
Batteries were all about 12.6 resting voltage, and 3 out of 4 regs lit up
immediately. I have these set for 15.35 or so. Short term, I can
substitute the PFC in the Gogo, but I will need it for the Bradley at some
point. I wanted to ask if anybody has looked at one of these Lestronics
to know if they can be tuned down at all?
2) Insurance....I never had a problem with WATTABMR because it was a
1983...The Gogo is a 1958, and it doesn't fit the requirements for any
insurance company I have found. I tried collectors specialty companies,
but they aren't interested, and the conventional companies won'e insure
anything over 25 years old or so. I can't re-register the car without
insurance, and I haven't found anyone to insure it. I thought " what do
people do for the NEVs?"
Any ideas?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Well. I have either found a workable setting for the NG5, or I have so
scrambled it that it will never be the same. I found an old email from May
2000 from Gary Flo, and he mentioned:
"There are two trimpots inside the charger. The one closer to the middle
is the gassing voltage. To turn up finish current to 4.6A you can turn the
other trimpot closer to the end. CW is up, CCW is down. Be aware that
this adjusts BOTH main current (phase 1) and finish current (phase 3) at
the same time. Don't exceed max input power of 5KW (about 4500W output)"
I assumed gassing voltage referred to the max voltage setting of the
charger, which was then set to 216 Volts. I went ahead and ran a charge
cycle, and sure enough in phase 3 it went to 4.2 Amps and the voltage
started climbing to the moon. A few turns of the trimpot, and suddenly the
voltage was under control. I brought it down to 197 Volts or 15.15 Volts
per battery, a bit less than Rich's 15.5 Volts, but as I can't limit the
time to 15 minutes, it seemed a decent compromise. This ramped the current
back to 3.2 Amps, and it tapered down to about 2 Amps before it cycled off
about an hour later. I suspect as the batteries in this mismatched pack
slowly gets closer to equal the equalization current will even be
lower. Once I get the pack discharged again I should be able to turn down
the maximum current to 20 Amps per the Dynasty notes. If I read Gary notes
correctly, this will also have the effect of extending phase 1 by holding
188 Volts until an even lower battery current is reached. That should
impact phase 3 as well, as the lower current should force the batteries to
a more equal state of charge. I am tempted to drill a hole in the case to
allow the pots to be accessed with the case on. One of those plastic
pop-in plugs should allow closing the hole after adjusting things.
I am really starting to feel good about all this. My Civic EV has always
been a delight except in relation to charging and the resulting battery
fatalities. It is kind of looking like a few turns of a trimpot was all it
really needed. Why I didn't re-adjust things in 2000 I don't know.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
www.ieee.org/;power Electric Vehicles Charge Forward, Hybrids & Hydrogen
article. IEEE sets the electrical standard for this country. Lawrence
Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Following in the footsteps of many on this list, I just purchaed a power wheels
dump truck at a yard sale for $25.00.
It runs fine, but the last owner has replaced the standard 6v gell cell battery
with a 12v 12AH gell cell. Needless to say the old charger is worthless with
this battery and I was hesitant to use a 12v car charger, and then it hit me.
I have an old computer ups that I also bought at a yard sale. All I really
wanted off of it was the box and the cord, I don't even know if it works. So I
dig it out and remove its dead 12v 7AH gell cell and connect up the one for the
power wheels.
It charges it just fine. A little slow, but just fine. Woohoo. So now I get
to thinking, hmmm, why not wire the whole thing into the power wheels. I'ts not
that heavy without its battery (about 3-4 pounds) and with it properly wired in
the PW would have it's own on board charger and a 110 pure sine inverter to
boot. Ok, so it'll only be about 200w, but what the heck it works.
Well, once I decided to do that I started looking at the rest of the vehicle
with an eye to "modifications" and I decided to replace the faux head and tail
lights with real ones.
Well I got to looking through my collection of spare parts and junk and could
not come up with a light bulb that would handle 12v. But I did come up with a
bag of 100 "super bright" white LED's I had purchased for another project. That
project never took place, so I figured about 20 of these would make a good
headlight, and I know where I could get some red ones for tail lights (Or use
fewer of these and put some red glass over them).
I bought the LEDS at a swap meet so I don't have exact specs on them. Anyone
know how I can figure out what size resister to put in series with say 20 of
these to let it run on 12v (nominal) DC and not burn them up?
For the sake of discussion, say that I need a 100 ohm resister for the above
project, would a 200 ohm resister work for 10 of them for the tail lights?
Thanks in Advance for any help.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James:
You're putting a 110 volt inverter in a Power Wheels?
Ok, that's weird.
That said you can wire some of the LEDs in series, but remember each one
drops a certain voltage and you need a resistor to limit the current.
Look at the specs for forward dropping voltage, then put enough in
series to come close to 12 volts, then total up the current needed (20ma
per diode is max) then use ohm's law to calculate a resistor.
Make parallel strings like this till you have all of the diodes used.
They do have the nice advantage of lasting forever.
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Following in the footsteps of many on this list, I just purchaed a power wheels
dump truck at a yard sale for $25.00.
It runs fine, but the last owner has replaced the standard 6v gell cell battery
with a 12v 12AH gell cell. Needless to say the old charger is worthless with
this battery and I was hesitant to use a 12v car charger, and then it hit me.
I have an old computer ups that I also bought at a yard sale. All I really
wanted off of it was the box and the cord, I don't even know if it works. So I
dig it out and remove its dead 12v 7AH gell cell and connect up the one for the
power wheels.
It charges it just fine. A little slow, but just fine. Woohoo. So now I get
to thinking, hmmm, why not wire the whole thing into the power wheels. I'ts not
that heavy without its battery (about 3-4 pounds) and with it properly wired in
the PW would have it's own on board charger and a 110 pure sine inverter to
boot. Ok, so it'll only be about 200w, but what the heck it works.
Well, once I decided to do that I started looking at the rest of the vehicle
with an eye to "modifications" and I decided to replace the faux head and tail
lights with real ones.
Well I got to looking through my collection of spare parts and junk and could
not come up with a light bulb that would handle 12v. But I did come up with a
bag of 100 "super bright" white LED's I had purchased for another project. That
project never took place, so I figured about 20 of these would make a good
headlight, and I know where I could get some red ones for tail lights (Or use
fewer of these and put some red glass over them).
I bought the LEDS at a swap meet so I don't have exact specs on them. Anyone
know how I can figure out what size resister to put in series with say 20 of
these to let it run on 12v (nominal) DC and not burn them up?
For the sake of discussion, say that I need a 100 ohm resister for the above
project, would a 200 ohm resister work for 10 of them for the tail lights?
Thanks in Advance for any help.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jarrett,
Nice find on the power wheels, I'm no LED expert but this LED calculator
will get you started.
http://www.projectx.com/Kits/LEDNotes/
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 5:48 AM
Subject: New power Wheels project help needed.
> Following in the footsteps of many on this list, I just purchaed a power
wheels
> dump truck at a yard sale for $25.00.
>
> It runs fine, but the last owner has replaced the standard 6v gell cell
battery
> with a 12v 12AH gell cell. Needless to say the old charger is worthless
with
> this battery and I was hesitant to use a 12v car charger, and then it hit
me.
>
> I have an old computer ups that I also bought at a yard sale. All I
really
> wanted off of it was the box and the cord, I don't even know if it works.
So I
> dig it out and remove its dead 12v 7AH gell cell and connect up the one
for the
> power wheels.
>
> It charges it just fine. A little slow, but just fine. Woohoo. So now I
get
> to thinking, hmmm, why not wire the whole thing into the power wheels.
I'ts not
> that heavy without its battery (about 3-4 pounds) and with it properly
wired in
> the PW would have it's own on board charger and a 110 pure sine inverter
to
> boot. Ok, so it'll only be about 200w, but what the heck it works.
>
> Well, once I decided to do that I started looking at the rest of the
vehicle
> with an eye to "modifications" and I decided to replace the faux head and
tail
> lights with real ones.
>
> Well I got to looking through my collection of spare parts and junk and
could
> not come up with a light bulb that would handle 12v. But I did come up
with a
> bag of 100 "super bright" white LED's I had purchased for another project.
That
> project never took place, so I figured about 20 of these would make a good
> headlight, and I know where I could get some red ones for tail lights (Or
use
> fewer of these and put some red glass over them).
>
> I bought the LEDS at a swap meet so I don't have exact specs on them.
Anyone
> know how I can figure out what size resister to put in series with say 20
of
> these to let it run on 12v (nominal) DC and not burn them up?
>
> For the sake of discussion, say that I need a 100 ohm resister for the
above
> project, would a 200 ohm resister work for 10 of them for the tail lights?
>
> Thanks in Advance for any help.
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted...
> James:
>
> You're putting a 110 volt inverter in a Power Wheels?
>
> Ok, that's weird.
True, but it's actually easier to do that that NOT do it with the charger I have
in hand.
>
> That said you can wire some of the LEDs in series, but remember each one
>
> drops a certain voltage and you need a resistor to limit the current.
> Look at the specs for forward dropping voltage, then put enough in
> series to come close to 12 volts, then total up the current needed (20ma
I know that, but I don't HAVE the specs. I was hoping someone could point me to
them or tell me how to figure them out.
>
> per diode is max) then use ohm's law to calculate a resistor.
>
> Make parallel strings like this till you have all of the diodes used.
> They do have the nice advantage of lasting forever.
>
True I was wanting to only do one string if I could help it. If memory serves a
standard diode drops about .7 v. I Don't know about these LED's but I'm sure
it's less than a full volt. So i should be able to get at least 10-12 on one
string.
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I know that, but I don't HAVE the specs. I was hoping someone could point me
> to
> them or tell me how to figure them out.
What color are they? That generally corresponds to the voltage drop.
If you know the color, you can use something like Digikey's parametric
search to choose the color and then look at the voltage drops of
similar LEDs.
> True I was wanting to only do one string if I could help it. If memory
> serves a
> standard diode drops about .7 v. I Don't know about these LED's but I'm sure
> it's less than a full volt. So i should be able to get at least 10-12 on one
> string.
LED's are usually 1.5-2.3V - white and blue are higher though.
Andrew
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I connect unknown LED's to a current limited power
supply and slowly raise the voltage until the LED
comes on, this is a close approximation of Vf that
you can use in the calculator (link that Richard
Furniss sent).
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Comments inserted...
>
> > James:
> >
> > You're putting a 110 volt inverter in a Power
> Wheels?
> >
> > Ok, that's weird.
>
> True, but it's actually easier to do that that NOT
> do it with the charger I have
> in hand.
> >
> > That said you can wire some of the LEDs in series,
> but remember each one
> >
> > drops a certain voltage and you need a resistor to
> limit the current.
> > Look at the specs for forward dropping voltage,
> then put enough in
> > series to come close to 12 volts, then total up
> the current needed (20ma
>
>
> I know that, but I don't HAVE the specs. I was
> hoping someone could point me to
> them or tell me how to figure them out.
> >
> > per diode is max) then use ohm's law to calculate
> a resistor.
> >
> > Make parallel strings like this till you have all
> of the diodes used.
> > They do have the nice advantage of lasting
> forever.
> >
> True I was wanting to only do one string if I could
> help it. If memory serves a
> standard diode drops about .7 v. I Don't know about
> these LED's but I'm sure
> it's less than a full volt. So i should be able to
> get at least 10-12 on one
> string.
>
> > Chris
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> I know that, but I don't HAVE the specs. I was hoping someone could point me
> to
> them or tell me how to figure them out.
I've been working with LEDs recently as I'm using them to replace the
wasteful incandescent lamps on my Jeep. If you don't have the spec sheet
for the LEDs you bought, nobody can say for sure what resistor you
should use. However, I've found that MOST white LEDs have a voltage drop
of about 3.5 Volts, and Red LEDs tend to drop 2 to 2.2 volts. As far as
current is concerned, 20mA should be good for most 5mm super bright
LEDs.
> True I was wanting to only do one string if I could help it. If memory
> serves a
> standard diode drops about .7 v. I Don't know about these LED's but I'm sure
> it's less than a full volt. So i should be able to get at least 10-12 on one
> string.
No. If you are using 12 volts, you'll only be able to use 3 white LEDs
in series with a resistor of 75 ohms. For the red LEDs, you could use
about 5 in a series string with an 100 ohm resistor.
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It runs fine, but the last owner has replaced the standard 6v gell
> cell battery with a 12v 12AH gell cell.
The original probably had *two* 6v batteries. They switched them in
series/parallel to provide 6v/12v for the two forward speeds.
> Needless to say the old charger is worthless with this battery
It was junk even with the original batteries :-)
> I have an old computer UPS... I dig it out and remove its dead
> 12v 7AH gell cell and connect up the one for the power wheels.
> It charges it just fine. A little slow, but just fine. Woohoo.
Danger! The 12v charger in that UPS may not be isolated from the power
line! If so, you could electrocute your child if he/she touches any of
the wiring while that charger is connected!
While the charger is operating, measure the voltage (both AC and DC)
from ground (third prong of a grounded AC outlet) to the 12v battery +
and - terminals. There should be essentially zero volts AC, and at most
12 volts DC. If it is not isolated, you will see nearly the full AC line
voltage!
> I decided to replace the faux head and tail lights with real ones.
> But I did come up with a bag of 100 "super bright" white LED's...
Wow... either you got a great deal on these, or are going to put $100
worth of LEDs in your Powerwheels.
> Anyone know how I can figure out what size resister to put in
> series with say 20 of these to let it run on 12v (nominal) DC and
> not burn them up?
You need enough series resistance to limit the current to 20-50mA each.
Each LED has around a 3.5v drop, so wire them with groups of 3 in series
(3 x 3.5v = 10.5v). This means, for example, 7 strings of 3 = 21 LEDs
per headlight. 12v - 10.5v = 1.5v to drop in a series resistor. For 30ma
at 12v, the resistor would be R = 1.5v / 0.03a = 50 ohms; use 47 ohms
(the nearest standard value). Wattage in the resistor is 1.5v x 0.03a =
0.045w, so even a 1/4w resistor will work.
You could wire all 7 3-LED strings in parallel, and use a single
resistor of 1/7th this value. But now it needs to be at least a 1/2w
resistor, and there will be variations in LED brightness (because they
don't all have the same voltage drop; some strings will hog more current
than others.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
