EV Digest 3976
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fw: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay, check out Karnes Dyno-Rev Engine
Inc.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Basic electrical question
by D Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: snake oil on ebay/xmass story part2
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Basic electrical question
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fw: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Basic electrical question
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Free '89 Corolla Donor Car
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Long Range EV Ideas
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Basic electrical question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Long Range EV with decent performance? A few Thoughts
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lack of knowledge of the laws (physics, et.al.) is no defense
for breaking them
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: splitting hairs, Rog V Rich.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Basic electrical question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Long Range EV Ideas
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Long Range EV Ideas
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 2005 goal: More electric vehicles for China
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EV stuff for sale
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Long Range EV Ideas
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> I used this fast Hawker powered charger on several
> > occasions....amazing, that 8 years old, tiny and abused Hawkers can
still
> deliver this
> > kind of performance!
> > I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd have to say Hawkers have
very
> long life!
> >
>
> Hi John and Others,
>
> Do you remember a few years back that someone on the List posted an
advisory
> that Hawker had changed something about their battery construction
> internally or had diluted them chemically, thus they were expected to not
be
> as good as they once were. Do you think that there is anything to this?
Have
> you used any Hawkers from more recent production runs for any
applications?
> Everything that I see would laud me to decide that perhaps the small
Hawkers
> would be a really great, albeit expensive upgrade, for my scooter.
>
> What's your opinion?
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Rick Pryor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the video they mentioned the 2stroke problem. Demonstrated by a guy
tripping over the wires of his electric leaf blower. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 1:48 AM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay, check out Karnes Dyno-Rev
Engine Inc.
Rod, the bidder on that perp motion deal is probably just trying to keep up
with the others in his field. Check out what came up on Google....David
Chapman.
http://www.karnesdynorev.com/Index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The problem is the digital ammeter and voltmeter need separate supplies. Use
two 5 volt supplies and you should be fine.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hey, I never thought of looking at that part of the circuit. I am going to
check that out. Thanks.
Dave F
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
. The only
> way for 4 to come around was to sell 2 , Which I did , along with the
> wedding ring that was lost in the duck work ,.
>
I drove no 2 for a few years before and had lots of fun experiences with it
, an ad I had for a city car brought Dusty by , we rode in the city car and
then the lynx , Dust drove it for a few years and when it needed a clutch
brought it back , we took out the motor and tranny to put one in ( and re
a line the motor to the tranny using my new method of a linement ), all a
month before Christmas. We had the front wheels off the ground to get the cv
axils out of the tranny and after getting everything done , motor back in
and all wired up , we let the car down. Well one of the cv joints had come
out at the wheel and didn't pop back in , the boot hid this from view. When
we let the car down the weight of it pushing the now longer than should be
axel on the tranny and broke part of the housing of the tranny off. A loud
bang and when we looked under the car oil was running out like rain. Dusty
a laid back kind of guy said , oh well, I really wanted an electric pick up
, lets just put the parts in one. Now with the car heading to the junk yard
, I could tear into the dash and pull out that duck work. There in one part
of the duck work was the long lost ring. The perfect Christmas present. :-)
. My Daughter and I played up the guessing game , with hints and smiles , "
You'll never guess this one" " No it didn't cost more that $50 , our agreed
upon budget" . After a while my wife started getting a little worried about
what she was going to get me. When her son came by and I whispered what I
had gotten her , the expression on his face , was pretty close to an EV
grin. This fun little game was starting to get out of hand , she was
starting to get Really upset about what she was going to give me.
to be continued
my wife gets the upper hand , or so she things
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
along these lines , using a small inverter to make 120 ac to run the water
pump for the zilla controller also gives an easy and cheap way to come up
with isolated dc supplies to run your e meter and other meters that need a
isolated supplies , buy using wall warts or other small transformers.
>
>
> Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The problem is the digital ammeter and voltmeter need separate supplies.
Use
> two 5 volt supplies and you should be fine.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Hey, I never thought of looking at that part of the circuit. I am going
to check that out. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Dave F
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only change I know of on the 26ah battery is they modified the
battery case top so that the interconnects between the cells are
stronger and have a better bus to the outside posts. They also made the
lids pressure-fit on instead of glued, thus making it possible to water
them.
I consider these nice features. From cutting an old style one open and a
new style one open during research I didn't find any other physical changes.
Chris
Rick wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I used this fast Hawker powered charger on several
occasions....amazing, that 8 years old, tiny and abused Hawkers can
still
deliver this
kind of performance!
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd have to say Hawkers have
very
long life!
Hi John and Others,
Do you remember a few years back that someone on the List posted an
advisory
that Hawker had changed something about their battery construction
internally or had diluted them chemically, thus they were expected to not
be
as good as they once were. Do you think that there is anything to this?
Have
you used any Hawkers from more recent production runs for any
applications?
Everything that I see would laud me to decide that perhaps the small
Hawkers
would be a really great, albeit expensive upgrade, for my scooter.
What's your opinion?
Thanks and regards,
Rick Pryor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AA batteries are always an option as well. They come pre-isolated :-)
From: D Franklin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Basic electrical question
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2004 07:53:36 -0800 (PST)
Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The problem is the digital ammeter and voltmeter need separate supplies.
Use
two 5 volt supplies and you should be fine.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hey, I never thought of looking at that part of the circuit. I am going to
check that out. Thanks.
Dave F
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone on the Prius_Technical_Stuff list wants to
give away his oil-leaking Corolla for a good cause.
Anyone interested?
Ed Ang
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I keep dreaming up ideas for EVs that I will never get around to building,
but I thought I might share some of these daydreams and see what you folks
think.
1. Big Pack Kit Car:
Build a custom from steel box tubing, patterned after a VW Beetle pan, but
based on heavier suspension components from say a VW bus. As part of the
frame, build in supports for 4 battery packs for standard GC2 golf cart
batteries. 8 batteries in front of the from axle, 10 in front of the rear
axle above the transmission, and 4 on each side of the motor behind the
rear axle. Total 26 batteries. With T-145s this would amount to 1846
pounds of batteries, a very weighty pack. Add a 9" Advanced and a baby
Zilla, with say a PFC-50 for charging. Also add one of those slick
automatic watering systems. Now, top it off with a Kelmark GT kit car body
modified to add a flip-up front for accessing the front pack. The Kelmark
already has dual rear hatches that could be used to access the rear battery
pack or a flip-up could be built here as well. Each battery pack would be
enclosed in a fiberglass box with ventilation fans. At something like 3500
to 3800 pounds, the resulting EV would not be a stellar performer on
acceleration, but the range would be outstanding. Assuming 175-200 Watt
hours per mile at 60 mph, a highway range of 100-120 miles seems at least
possible.
2. Plug-in Hybrid Pickup:
Pretty much a standard pickup conversion except that no batteries would be
installed under the hood. Instead there would be a 8 to 10KW genset,
either off the shelf or custom assembled from perhaps a modified 3 phase
motor and a small 10 to 15 hp gas engine. Again I like the idea of a 144
or 156 volt system to get the performance up a bit while still using the
forgiving golf cart batteries. To fit this many batteries may mean
sacrificing some if not all the cargo space in the bed. The result would
be an EV with good range and the ability to extend that range as needed.
Substituting about an equal weight of AGMs should result in about the same
range without the watering hassles and with much better performance, but
would require some sort of battery management system.
So, crazy or do-able, or already been done?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The problem is the digital ammeter and voltmeter need
> separate supplies. Use two 5 volt supplies and you should be fine.
To be clear here, these digital panel meters typically come in two
flavours; the most common version is intended to operate from a 9V
battery supply and will not operate properly if the supply ground is
common with the ground of the signal it is trying to measure.
I think that even some of the ones that accept 5V suffer this same
limitation.
When Joe says the two meters need separate supplies, he means separate
*isolated* supplies; it is not sufficient to throw a 7805 between each
meter and the 12V auxiliary battery.
Check out C&D Technologies <http://www.cdpowerelectronics.com/> for
little (1W) isolated DC/DCs the size of your thumbnail that will work
nicely for powering these meters. For instance, the NME1205S takes 12V
in and outputs an isolated [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<http://www.cdpowerelectronics.com/products/pdf/ndc_nme_3.pdf>. This is
an unregulated DC/DC, so the 5V output will vary as the 12V input
varies. Look to the NMF series for regulated outputs and perhaps
consider the NMA dual output series (+/-5V output) for the potential to
operate both meters from a single DC/DC (*if* the dual outputs are
isolated from each other as well as from the input supply, which I am
not certain of).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This is what Solectria discovered when they fitted Forces
> with Hawkers for a time in the mid-90s. The packs rapidly
> dropped in capacity unless they were charged with high
> current (level II or higher) equipment. It was related to
> me by one of their tech support people, and I also heard it
> third-hand from some other Solectria users. It was also
> mentioned in a Connecticut or New Hampshire EV program
> report, which I think is regrettably no longer available
> on line.
Thanks David; it is the Connecticut/NH report that I was specifically
thinking of with respect to documenting this behaviour.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Bob Rice wrote:
> John Wayland put ALL the Beastie's Batteries in
> back, none under the bed, or hood, surprisingly to me, but I think he did it
> quick and easy, read , simply, to do.
Correction....There were indeed, batteries under the hood, six to be exact.
Remember, this
was Dick Finley's truck and his idea, so we had to bash heads on everything I
put in it.
Of course, I'd love to have the chance to bash heads with him again :-( He
wanted all of
the batteries in the bed, but I wanted to balance weight and give the truck
some semblance
of handling and safe braking. This made placing weight over the front wheels a
must. I
wanted about 600 lbs. under the hood, and with the 9 inch ADC, six T-105s, twin
DC-DCs, an
Optima for the 12V reserve power, the controller, the power steering pump, air
bag
compressor, vacuum pump, and other things under there, that's about what it
came to, maybe
even a bit more. The rest of the total of 40 batteries, 34 of them, went in the
bed.
> A nice Tonneau cover went on top. OK
> truck was useless as a truck, in that configuration, but, hell, he was maxed
> out on the GVW anyhow.
Agreed, it went from being a truck, to a battery hauling device :-) Dick drew a
hard line
on not making special under-the-bed battery boxes, a tilting bed, and
everything else that
comes with getting creative with battery placement, and he strongly held his
ground on
that battle, and won. Instead, most of the batteries went in the bed, placed
starting at
the leading wall just behind the cab, and going back to just behind the rear
fender wells,
which miraculously, left a 'trunk' space between the last row of batteries and
the
tailgate about two feet in depth and the width of the bed. With the tilt-up and
insulated
tonneau cover with its nice rubber seal when closed, it really was a useful
trunk. As to the
GVW being exceeded, there's no argument there, but, we did employ air bag
suspension which
of course, changes the GVW capabilities some. It obviously worked well, as
after three
years on the road here in my area, there was not a creak, rattle, or any
evidence of
fatigue in this truck's strong boxed steel frame and body. I inspected the
frame under the
truck often, too...Toyota builds a stout mid-sized truck!
> But what a great PULLER he had like for trailers, so
> if ya have something to haul, get a trailer!
Yeah, it was an amazing demonstration of the torque a 9 inch series wound DC
motor can
produce! With a 450 amp controller and flooded batteries that didn't want to
dish out
anything much more in the way of amps at just 120V, there was only 55-60 hp on
tap, but
all that stump pulling torque was always there, so yes, the darn thing could
effortlessly
pull the bigger of the two trailers I use, the tandem wheel 1200 lb. empty
weight one,
loaded with 3000+ lbs. of race car and garden tractor.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< I got the listing removed by ebay message. Bout time. Lawrence Rhodes...>>
So did I, and I'm sure at least a dozen other listers. You get the message "Due
to privacy laws, we can't tell you just exactly what we're gonna do", but I've
complained about other listing before, gotten this message AND seen the auction
completed, so I don't know if it's the merits of the argument or the sheer
number of complaints that gets it removed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We have a little disagreement on the definition of high rate charging.
>
> Be careful about using the term "high rate charging" around
> Rich. He tends to think about a ten minute pit stop (similar
> to Dennis, John and Rod) to get back into the staging lanes.
Sorry; I assume that if Rich is going to bash Hawker's charge
recommendations, he is familiar with Hawker's literature and their
charge algorithms.
There is no ambiguity there; they recommend a minimum of C/3 amps during
the initial bulk phase of their IUI algorithm, with C being the C/10 Ah
rating of the Hawker Genesis battery.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Perhaps, however my Prizm had been sitting not charged and basically
> dead for over 5 years in a Fla storage warehouse and the
> batteries still charged up and ran 25 mile range for over 2k miles.
> They only died after I started using the MC :-)
You're only proving my argument; you didn't start with a healthy pack.
After sitting for such a long period differences in self-discharge rates
will have ensured that the pack was not only imbalanced from module to
module, but also from cell-to-cell within each module. It is also
certain that the batteries were sulfated to a greater or lesser extent.
It is reasonable to assume that Hawker's recommendations are based on
starting with a healthy pack, and that if you follow those
recommendations your pack will remain healthy. There is no reason to
believe that you should expect Hawker's recommendations to rejuvenate or
even be kind to a pack which has been abused and neglected.
> Eh. When I pulled my pack I made some very detailed charts of which
> battery was where, the specific run time to 10.66vpc from a full
> (individual) charge per battery, and took measuremnts during
> bulk charge with the pack open (it was on jackstands for a month
> plus). I did not see any real difference between the strings in the
> pack as for the individual batteries between strings (ie: one was
> not full of more shot batteries than the other), thus I can say
> with a pretty good certianty that the strings were not out of
> balance WRT each other.
Did you monitor the voltages of every module *simultaneously*, and did
you do so during the constant voltage portion of the charge? Once you
have performed this type of test you will have a better appreciation for
why I state that the module voltages of a *reasonably* healthy pack will
not differ greatly during bulk charge (and therefore tell you little
about the state of balance of the batteries), and also why I have little
faith in random measurements of individual modules periodically during
charge.
> The C/3 charge rate was a disaster on a long string. Period. I don't
> blame Hawker, I blame Chris Zach for slavishly following the
> details to the letter without using common sense.
You did *not* follow Hawker's recommendations accurately, period.
Hawker's IUI algorithm specifies phase timeouts that are dependant upon
the time spent in prior phases, etc. which is something that your
Magnacharger does not support, as I recall. You made a valiant effort
to implement something in the spirit of Hawker's algorithm, but what you
did to your batteries was a Chris Zach original algorithm, not Hawker's.
> > The bulk portion of the charge is *not* what dries out the battery.
> > During this portion of the charge the voltages of the individual
> > modules track closely and you do *not* have modules at 16V
> > and modules at 14V unless you start off with a ridiculously
> > imbalanced pack
>
> No, you do. I checked this with my own eyes and saw the
> meter: E-meter at 340 (thus full blast charge), some batteries at
> 13+, some at 14, some at 15, a few at 16, and one or two at 17.
>
> The problem was partially that the batteries were out of balance,
> but not in the sense of out of capacity. The highest voltage
> batteries were basically drier than the lower voltage ones.
Please read what I wrote. You will *not* have modules at such different
voltages during the bulk phase unless the pack is ridiculously
imbalanced. You had a ridiculously imbalanced pack because some of your
batteries had vented and because you pack had sat neglected for 5yrs,
therefore you observed what you did. How a pack behaves *after* you
have killed it is not the same as how it behaves when it is healthy, and
what you can do to a healthy pack to keep it healthy may well speed the
death of a mortally wounded pack, as you discovered.
> > It seems to me that the Magnacharger does *not* implement
> > Hawker's IUI recommendations accurately, and that you
> > personally, as I recall, ran into trouble when you started
> > tweaking the Magnacharger's programming.
>
> No, I ran into trouble when I tried to *implement* the IUI. Constant
> current to 375 (I), constant voltage to 390 (current limited)(U),
> constant current 390 for 50 minutes. That solution toasted pack#1,
> pack#2, and at least two other packs from other people. We've stopped
> doing this for now :-)
So let's be clear:
The Magnacharger (stock) does *not* follow Hawker's IUI algorithm, yet
you are blaming Hawker's C/3 minimum charge rate recommended for their
IUI algorithm for the demise of packs charged with the Magnacharger.
You do not appear to appreciate the significance of the rest of the
charge algorithm as far as ensuring the pack is fully and properly
charged so that it does not drift further and further out of balance or
get vented and therefore begin a death spiral no matter what you do to
it during the bulk phase.
You *tried* to implement Hawker's IUI, but could *not* do so because the
Magnacharger does not support the prior-phase-dependant timeouts
required by the Hawker algorithm. Yourself and a few others who tried
to use the Magnacharger with *your* algorithm toasted your packs
prematurely. This is Hawker's fault? I recall generating several
emails in response to posts you made while tweaking the Magnacharger,
but it doesn't seem to me that they had any impact on what you did.
> Okie dokie. However I have been very interested in this little
> experiment, and took a nice new pack and applied the hawker
> IUI routine to it to the letter.
NO you did not! You applied those aspects of it that you thought were
important and ignored those that you could not implement due to the
limitations of the Magnacharger programming. You also may or may not
have appreciated the difference between what Hawker recommends for a
single string of batteries and what is required for parallel strings
(e.g. you do *not* double the finish current into paralleled strings
since you cannot guarantee that the current will divide equally between
them; if it doesn't divide equally, then one modules in one string may
vent while modules in the other may be left undercharged; the post
mortem may reveal similar numbers of dead modules in each string).
> This pack I am trying something different:
> So far from watching the E-meter, this solution gets me to
> within .1ah using a CEF of 92% and a perk factor as
> specified in the hawker manual.
"perk"? Oh, I suppose you mean "Peukert".
If you want to try something non-Hawker recommended that is "proven",
search the archives for a post by Rich Brown (of Dualin' 7 fame)
regarding his charge methodology for his car with its dual 144V strings
of G42 (38/42Ah Hawker Genesis modules). As I recall, he is/was using a
Zivan charger (so almost certainly was unable to meet the C/3 min
requirement), and the key to his success appears to have been not
allowing the charger to complete on every daily cycle, but instead
performing an extended duration 'float' at elevated (i.e. equalisation
level) voltage over the weekends to gently bring the pack to full and
balanced condition. I'm not sure if he was using regulators on his pack
either (I don't think so).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Concur on isolation.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: Basic electrical question
> Joe Smalley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > The problem is the digital ammeter and voltmeter need
> > separate supplies. Use two 5 volt supplies and you should be fine.
>
> To be clear here, these digital panel meters typically come in two
> flavours; the most common version is intended to operate from a 9V
> battery supply and will not operate properly if the supply ground is
> common with the ground of the signal it is trying to measure.
>
> I think that even some of the ones that accept 5V suffer this same
> limitation.
>
> When Joe says the two meters need separate supplies, he means separate
> *isolated* supplies; it is not sufficient to throw a 7805 between each
> meter and the 12V auxiliary battery.
>
> Check out C&D Technologies <http://www.cdpowerelectronics.com/> for
> little (1W) isolated DC/DCs the size of your thumbnail that will work
> nicely for powering these meters. For instance, the NME1205S takes 12V
> in and outputs an isolated [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <http://www.cdpowerelectronics.com/products/pdf/ndc_nme_3.pdf>. This is
> an unregulated DC/DC, so the 5V output will vary as the 12V input
> varies. Look to the NMF series for regulated outputs and perhaps
> consider the NMA dual output series (+/-5V output) for the potential to
> operate both meters from a single DC/DC (*if* the dual outputs are
> isolated from each other as well as from the input supply, which I am
> not certain of).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1. Saw one in Seattle about 10 years ago. Rich Rudman has the hybrid trailer
that was towed behind it.
2. John Wayland's Red Beastie. Slight difference though... The genset fit in
the last 24 inches of the bed instead of the front. That made it easier to
remove the genset when not needed.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 9:01 AM
Subject: Long Range EV Ideas
> Hi folks,
>
> I keep dreaming up ideas for EVs that I will never get around to building,
> but I thought I might share some of these daydreams and see what you folks
> think.
>
> 1. Big Pack Kit Car:
>
> Build a custom from steel box tubing, patterned after a VW Beetle pan, but
> based on heavier suspension components from say a VW bus. As part of the
> frame, build in supports for 4 battery packs for standard GC2 golf cart
> batteries. 8 batteries in front of the from axle, 10 in front of the rear
> axle above the transmission, and 4 on each side of the motor behind the
> rear axle. Total 26 batteries. With T-145s this would amount to 1846
> pounds of batteries, a very weighty pack. Add a 9" Advanced and a baby
> Zilla, with say a PFC-50 for charging. Also add one of those slick
> automatic watering systems. Now, top it off with a Kelmark GT kit car
body
> modified to add a flip-up front for accessing the front pack. The Kelmark
> already has dual rear hatches that could be used to access the rear
battery
> pack or a flip-up could be built here as well. Each battery pack would be
> enclosed in a fiberglass box with ventilation fans. At something like
3500
> to 3800 pounds, the resulting EV would not be a stellar performer on
> acceleration, but the range would be outstanding. Assuming 175-200 Watt
> hours per mile at 60 mph, a highway range of 100-120 miles seems at least
> possible.
>
> 2. Plug-in Hybrid Pickup:
>
> Pretty much a standard pickup conversion except that no batteries would be
> installed under the hood. Instead there would be a 8 to 10KW genset,
> either off the shelf or custom assembled from perhaps a modified 3 phase
> motor and a small 10 to 15 hp gas engine. Again I like the idea of a 144
> or 156 volt system to get the performance up a bit while still using the
> forgiving golf cart batteries. To fit this many batteries may mean
> sacrificing some if not all the cargo space in the bed. The result would
> be an EV with good range and the ability to extend that range as needed.
>
> Substituting about an equal weight of AGMs should result in about the same
> range without the watering hassles and with much better performance, but
> would require some sort of battery management system.
>
> So, crazy or do-able, or already been done?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
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--- Begin Message ---
You're only proving my argument; you didn't start with a healthy pack.
After sitting for such a long period differences in self-discharge rates
will have ensured that the pack was not only imbalanced from module to
module, but also from cell-to-cell within each module. It is also
certain that the batteries were sulfated to a greater or lesser extent.
It is reasonable to assume that Hawker's recommendations are based on
starting with a healthy pack, and that if you follow those
recommendations your pack will remain healthy. There is no reason to
believe that you should expect Hawker's recommendations to rejuvenate or
even be kind to a pack which has been abused and neglected.
I started with a healthy pack; I dropped the first pack (9 year old
Hawkers) and replaced them with 50 nice, matched, tested batteries.
Fully charged, discharged, and tested for runtime within 1-2 minutes of
each other. It doesn't get much better than that.
Did you monitor the voltages of every module *simultaneously*, and did
you do so during the constant voltage portion of the charge? Once you
have performed this type of test you will have a better appreciation for
why I state that the module voltages of a *reasonably* healthy pack will
not differ greatly during bulk charge (and therefore tell you little
about the state of balance of the batteries), and also why I have little
faith in random measurements of individual modules periodically during
charge.
Once again, yes. Voltages were measured within the time it takes to move
a probe along the pack ladder; one could see the differences even
between neighbor batteries. This was done at 340 volt point of the
charge, which according to Hakwer is still "bulk".
You did *not* follow Hawker's recommendations accurately, period.
Hawker's IUI algorithm specifies phase timeouts that are dependant upon
the time spent in prior phases, etc. which is something that your
Magnacharger does not support, as I recall. You made a valiant effort
to implement something in the spirit of Hawker's algorithm, but what you
did to your batteries was a Chris Zach original algorithm, not Hawker's.
*sigh* While technically true that I did not measure the times exactly,
for a 50ah pack the differences in time would have been small at best. I
know all about the magical times, and for a small 50ah pack those time
differences are minimal at best. While it's possible that some magic
might have saved the pack, given the shape after 6,000 miles I kind of
doubt it. Some of the batteries were baked by the high current charge,
and it caused a landslide-effect.
Please read what I wrote. You will *not* have modules at such different
voltages during the bulk phase unless the pack is ridiculously
imbalanced. You had a ridiculously imbalanced pack because some of your
batteries had vented and because you pack had sat neglected for 5yrs,
therefore you observed what you did. How a pack behaves *after* you
have killed it is not the same as how it behaves when it is healthy, and
what you can do to a healthy pack to keep it healthy may well speed the
death of a mortally wounded pack, as you discovered.
Please read what I wrote: I have had 3 packs in this car. Pack 1 was old
Hakwers, pack 2 was new hawkers, pack 3 is what's in there now. All the
discussions here are on pack 2, the nice matched batteries that I put in
spring 2003 and replaced summer 2004.
The Magnacharger (stock) does *not* follow Hawker's IUI algorithm, yet
you are blaming Hawker's C/3 minimum charge rate recommended for their
IUI algorithm for the demise of packs charged with the Magnacharger.
You do not appear to appreciate the significance of the rest of the
charge algorithm as far as ensuring the pack is fully and properly
charged so that it does not drift further and further out of balance or
get vented and therefore begin a death spiral no matter what you do to
it during the bulk phase.
*sigh* What I am saying is simple: On a 25 battery string charging to
375 volts at max current is a bad idea. This is phase I of Hawker's
vaunted IUI protocol. When you do this some of the batteries will
overshoot a bit, each time you charge the ones that overshot a bit will
overshoot a bit more. Eventually they will be all over the map.
For flooded batteries, this is called "life" and everyone refills them.
I do it too on my Elec-Trak. AGMs can't handle this.
"perk"? Oh, I suppose you mean "Peukert".
Correct.
If you want to try something non-Hawker recommended that is "proven",
search the archives for a post by Rich Brown (of Dualin' 7 fame)
regarding his charge methodology for his car with its dual 144V strings
of G42 (38/42Ah Hawker Genesis modules). As I recall, he is/was using a
Zivan charger (so almost certainly was unable to meet the C/3 min
requirement), and the key to his success appears to have been not
allowing the charger to complete on every daily cycle, but instead
performing an extended duration 'float' at elevated (i.e. equalisation
level) voltage over the weekends to gently bring the pack to full and
balanced condition. I'm not sure if he was using regulators on his pack
either (I don't think so).
That's sort of what I am doing. The magnecharger takes the pack to 375
volts only and throttles charge current back at 350 volts. Every week
(acutally when the battery gauge goes to E because the MC doesn't take
the pack high enough to reset it and it bypasses the Dolphin's internal
ah counter) I put the car on the Dolphin charger and let it go at 2.5amp
all the way to 390 volts where it sits for 50 minutes at well < 1amp.
This resets the gauge, puts the pack at about +.7ah and in my mind
equalizes out the pack nicely.
The proof of the pudding will be in the crust: We'll see how well it
works next year. In the meantime I might take these old batteries and
make a 26ah range extender for the Prizm.
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Putting the generator at the back means you don't have to deal with a long
exhaust pipe.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. John Wayland's Red Beastie. Slight difference though... The genset fit
in
the last 24 inches of the bed instead of the front. That made it easier to
remove the genset when not needed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually what they found was that Hawker started making lighter
batteries with less lead. You could weigh them. THe heavy ones
performed, the new lighter ones didn't.
Seth
On Dec 24, 2004, at 1:30 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is what Solectria discovered when they fitted Forces
with Hawkers for a time in the mid-90s. The packs rapidly
dropped in capacity unless they were charged with high
current (level II or higher) equipment. It was related to
me by one of their tech support people, and I also heard it
third-hand from some other Solectria users. It was also
mentioned in a Connecticut or New Hampshire EV program
report, which I think is regrettably no longer available
on line.
Thanks David; it is the Connecticut/NH report that I was specifically
thinking of with respect to documenting this behaviour.
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FL25Ad03.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Time to thin the herd!
I have 3, a Honda that drives pretty good, a Datsun/Electrikar that is almost
done, and enough parts for a third.
For sale is almost enough parts to make an Omni /Charger/Shadow type car.
ADC 9" coupled to an automatic transaxle complete with suspension and
subframe.
Nonworking, unpotted Curtis1231C controller (Curtis will repair for $800)
Various battery racks cables etc.
Complete 1986 Dodge Omni donor car.
The EV stuff came out of a Dodge Laser that was raced in the EVTC races in
Pheonix and San Diego in '96 and '97, so the motor may have 100 miles on it,
probably less. The Omni needs a taillight lens, and shows normal wear and tear
for a car with 100,000 miles, but is straight and 100% rust free.
I will post pictures on my website Monday afternoon and post the URL to this
list Monday evening. In the meantime, I can email pictures to anyone
interested offlist.
I will entertain any offers including interesting trades.
Everything is located near San Diego.
All proceeds will be plowed back into the EV program at my school.
Thanks,
Ben
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--- Begin Message ---
My idea is to build off of a 1968 Triumph GT6(If I don't do
the Spitfire). Cd of .32 and frontal area of 15 feet square
STOCK is impressive. Do the basic EV aero mods and cover the
rear wheels and do a full underbelly, and I may get it down
to .25, which would make it more aerodyanmic than an Insight
with such low frontal area. Lower the car 2 inches to the
ground as well.
With a fiberglass LeMans bonnet, fiberglass doors,
fiberglass trunk, and lighter windows, subtract the bumpers,
and with a 240 V Optima pack, the car would weigh about
2,400 pounds. Energy consumption would be about 150 wh/mile
@ 60 MPH, and with a Zilla 2k limiting max battery amps to
about 1150 and WarP 9 with the voltage limit set at the
rated voltage, 0-60 would be < 7 seconds and top speed in
excess of 120. Range at highway 55-60 MPH would be about 50
miles to 80% DoD with a 35-40 amp draw.
Later, it could be upgraded to a 300V Optima pack, with
weight at about 2,650 pounds with a 70 mile range highway.
Of course, I'm dreaming here. I'm more likely to go with
Exides because they are cheaper(I refuse to pay list price
for Optimas. F*ck no.), a Zilla 1k, and I won't have all the
fiberglass upgrades at the start. Without all the standard
EV aero upgrades, I think I'll reasonably expect 20-25 miles
highway to 80% DoD on 240V Exides, 190 wh/mile, 0-60 ~ 8-9,
1/4 mile about 16-17, and top speed > 100(Simulations show
much more optimistic results, like high 14s, 0-60 ~ 6, and >
30 miles to 80% DoD, but we all know how those are, not to
mention I trust Rich's data much more than my own
simulations). Who knows, I may be pleasantly surprised.
I am eyeing Berube's Zilla 1.8k, which would give me
Meanie-like performance or better, but it will surely be
gone before I can afford it. First thing is first and
snatching that GT6. It's aero enough to, with the correct
design, give range AND performance. That's something I
eventually want to do.
In the meantime, I'll be trying to tweak my program to
reflect real-world results more closely, but it will be
guessing for the most part until I drive a real EV. When it
is ready, I will make it available to the list. It would
really help people find what works best for them. Would
include acceleration times from 0-10 up to 0-100 MPH, 1/4
mile time, top speed, range at speeds from 0 to 100 MPH,
given all the input conditions and what not. Getting started
on that major CS project I'll be doing next year a bit
early...
As to the lead sled kit car idea discussed by another
member, I think it would be better served with sealed PbA.
Have a 420V string of Exides and two WarP 9s with a
series/parallel config and a Zilla 2k. You could have a
2,800 pound car with over 70 miles range to 80%. Amp draw
would be below rated value, and consumption at highway
speeds might be around 140 wh/mile with an aero enough body.
The Kelmark looks like it could be modded significantly for
this purpose, although a custom body shaped like say an Opel
Eco Speedster would be a lot better. Then with Rich Rudman's
rapid charge systems, assuming they were widely available,
you'd NEVER need to use gas again, even with such short
range. One can dream...
Another idea is a Red Beastie knockoff with the ass end
loaded with about 2,500 pounds of BB600 NiCds. Expensive,
but with a zilla 2k and twin motor setup, you might get some
satisfying results, even on a 5,000 + pound pig of a truck.
Top it off with a gun rack, and call it a deal. :)
I'd hate to have to water that many cells though...
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