EV Digest 3981
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Switching from PbSO4
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) [Fwd: Long range / (serial) hybrid vehicles]
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid options for a pickup
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by "johnk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Switching from PbSO4
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Clutch musings
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Switching from PbSO4
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Switching from PbSO4
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVLN(Jr Not Changing tho talks clean)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by Dragan Stancevic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Candidate vehicle weight?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Ideal motor RPM?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ideal motor RPM?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ampabout ... cheaper by the pallet
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: 2005 goal: More electric vehicles for China
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 2005 goal: More electric vehicles for China
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Switching from PbSO4
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Switching from PbSO4
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Switching from PbSO4
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) More EV ideas
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
A point close to home...
I got a T-shirt for Christmas... Dame Bramidged......
I have reasons for getting a laugh from it.
With all this computer power though, it is no reason for not tagging the
spell check button now a daze....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
> In a message dated 12/23/2004 9:15:12 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> << Also he
> misspelled "strick" [ed. strict] but got "restriction" correct. It just
> seemed odd. Almost like someone trying to dumb down his spelling smarts
in
> an arrogant way. That's where I was coming from. >>
>
> I am an Automotive instructor. I keep up with industry trends on a
listserve
> much like this one but much larger. Easily 1/3 of the tech's who post cant
> spell well. Some of the best tech's I've known and some of the best
students I've
> taught have dyslexia.
> While dyslexia is a drag, the upside is that those that have it seem to be
> blessed with spatial skills and hand eye coordination (tool skills) far
beyond
> average.
> I am sure that there are lots of dumb auto *mechanics* out there who cant
> spell, but there are also hunderds of thousands of bright, qualified
> *technicians*out there, many of whom spell poorly due to a medical
condition.
>
> Ben
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark replied to my ampabout POST, talking about changing
to NiCds.
Well, here we go again with another round of which battery
is better.
IMHO:
PbSO4 wet cells are affordable and off the shelf.
But they are heavy, have low energy density, need maintenance,
and die young (1 to 3 years, your driving may differ).
We all have heard the small lots of used NiCds that someone
is offering. Usually these are a rare find from a surplus
outlet, or worst case they are rinsed off gems that were
found buried on military land.
NiMH and Li-ion seem to be only offered in small sub-cells
that have to be welded together making a low amperage pack.
These chemistries need a battery management box to control
the cooling of the cells, and the charge current.
While the life of these chemistries will be longer than
PbSO4, they are much more expensive to purchase.
I am not at the point to jump the PbSO4 ship just yet. Since
there are no EV repair companies near me (way too far away),
I would have to do all the conversion work myself.
Things that will take research time, and money:
-Finding a 'good price' on a large quantity purchase of the same
type of cell (not the one off, odd-ball old military NiCds).
-Finding a welder to put NiMH or Li-ion sub-cells together
into a battery that allows cooling air-flow and has the
amperage needed to move a 5000 lb EV.
-Buying a new charger that has an algorithm for these chemistries
'and' can be controlled by the battery-management box to reduce
charging current (temps go up, current has to go down).
-And lastly, since there is no off-the-shelf
battery-management-box,
I would have to build my own. This is enough of head-ache to
keep most from switching away from PbSO4.
Yet, it is exciting to see the cost of these chemistries drop.
A little web searching and it looks like someone is offering
cells pre-welded and shirk-wrapped:
http://www.batterystation.com/configurations.htm
I think configuration 38 would be the best they have to offer.
multiple #38 packs could be put in parallel to increase the
amperage and amphour capacity.
Watt do you think?
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
This didn't seem to show up, so I'm resending...
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Long range / (serial) hybrid vehicles
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2004 13:44:19 -0800
From: Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Now that we're talking about serial hybrids, due to the death of a local
EV'er last summer, we have a pretty nice serial hybrid pickup truck for
sale in Oregon. I uses 120V of flooded batteries, dual Zivan changers, a
Curtis controller driving a DC motor.
What is different is the 8KW generator fit under the hood, and it
retains the gas tank! The owner had a farm, and could use it to power
the house or wells when the power was out. It's also pretty nice to add
8KW for long trips when the pack begins to sag. Of course, normally, you
can drive in pure electric mode. The former owner drove 30 miles to work
on the freeway each day.
The battery pack is new as of last May.
I gave it a pretty good run up a few local hills, and it performs
nicely. (I did not start the generator--we were still looking for the
documentation at that time).
See the www.oeva.org website for the link in the for sale section. The
owner has donated it to VOA for a tax credit, but I believe it is still
for sale from them.
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I tried to send this out on the 26th but for some reason it didn't
> post. To add to what I wrote below, I just read the post where someone
> suggested using a 4x4 front axle and attaching a motor to it to run
> just the front axle. What would be the minimum motor size and voltage
> to be able to get say a 45 mph top speed and 20 mile range? I assume an
> E Tek is too small and would be toast in short order.
I would like to do a 4x4 Hybrid 'conversion' aswell, I've
been thinking that it might work out something like this:
Is it's an older 'manual 4x4' with a manual transfer case capable of
2wd, 4High/4Low, and neutral. Rather than a newer 'real time AWD'/4L.
It may be possible to inject the electric power into the drive shaft
between the transfer case and the rear differential. A simple matter
of removing the old shaft, and modifying it by 'splicing in' a beefy
double shafted motor, probably an 8", 9", or better. Secure the motor
housing to the truck frame with heavy duty bushings that will still
allow for the normal range of motion of the suspension vs the frame.
Q: how large of a motor would be required to handle the loads
.: on this shaft without damaging the motors armeture shaft?
This would allow you to select via the transfer case:
N: For unchanged pure gas crusing with only additional weight losses, or
N: For Pure EV mode with the tranny in neutral (no alt, power brakes, etc)
In Any mode, 2x, 4x, or Neutral you would add the ability to assist
(or regen) additional power into the system via the electric motor.
Rapid Charging would be possible while driving, but with a more than
minor hit on the overall effeciency or either system alone. Better to
use it as a strictly gas, grid-electric, or occasionally 'hybrid mode'.
> How would you control it? A thumb
> switch/rheostat on the shifter? A motorcycle throttle to replace the
> knob at the top of the shifter? How tough would it be to charge the
> pack from the alternator while in ICE mode? Do DC to DC conveters go in
> the other direction, 12 to 72 or 96? What happens to a DC motor when it
> freewheels? Can anything be damaged?
Well, Ideally you would use the same foot throttle for both. By simply
choosing to leave the EV portion off durring normal gas crusing. By
turning on, but not starting the ICE in BEV mode. Or by turning them
both on for that extra boost of electric torque.
> Listers,
> OK guys, now that I have an EV I'd like to make my pick up (98
> Nissan Frontier) as fuel efficient as possible by possibly making it a
> hybrid. I would like to be able to make it run under battery power,
> with the engine at idle so I'll have steering and brakes, when
> accelerating from a stop or backing up. This is when it runs the least
> efficient and is probably where I can get be most improvement. I have
> few ideas.
> One, put hub motor wheels on the front and batteries under the bed.
> This would be the perfect option but as has recently been written on
> this list, hub motor wheels aren't available just yet.
> Two. Is it possible to machine a cover that would replace the cover
> on the back of the rear differential that would have a motor, maybe a
> 6.7" ADC, mounted on it? This motor would directly drive the
> differential with the same type of gear that the drive shaft uses. When
> accelerating the motor would drive the truck and after a certain speed,
> maybe 30 mph, the engine would take over.
I'm not sure you'de get much out of e-teks, and the shaft on a 6.7"
may not be tough enough to handle the forces on the drive axel. ?anyone?
> A small 72v system might be a good option for this arrangement. Six
> Exide Orbitals under the bed, a DCP 600 or Curtis, and a 72v charger.
> Or it could be charged off of the engine with a high output alternator.
> Or both. The motor would just be used for slow speeds and would
> freewheel when not in use. The main drawback I see with this is I'm not
> sure I could sufficiently protect the motor from the elements.
> Three. Somehow mount the motor to the engine and set it up to drive
> the engine with a belt, like an alternator or AC pump in reverse. The
> same basic idea as above would apply, drive the engine at low speed and
> freewheel when not used but since it drive the engine directly, I
> couldn't use this to go in reverse.
> Four. Don't know if this is possible with all the drivetrain
> movement but how about mounting a motor between the framerails forward
> of the rear diff and driving the driveshaft with a gear of some sort
> welded to the shaft or teeth that are machined into the shaft itself.
> This whole setup would have to be designed to accomodate the movement
> of the drivetrain and the exposur to the elements.
> If anyone has any better ideas please pass them along. And thanks
> for any comments on the above ideas.
You might also think about getting started by converting the other
systems over to a BEV-Able setup... Splice an electric vacuume pump
inline with the existing engine vaccume for Power Brakes. You might
be fine without Power Steering once up to speed. And you may consider
a small DC/DC converter as the alternator won't be running in BEV mode.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul G
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 2:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
"
That is why its common to launch in series and then
switch to parallel. "
[John K]
Can you expand on the idea please?
---
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--- Begin Message ---
Here are a couple of Li Ion possibilities that are less difficult to use for
conversion of a GC battery vehicle:
1) Valence makes Lithium Ion batteries packaged in PbSO4 AGM battery style
plastic cases with the cell/battery management electronics built-in:
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
Apparently, you can charge them like lead acid.
2) Thunder Sky straps the Li Ion cells into modules according to your
request and supplies the cell interconnects. Three of the 200 A-Hr. cells
will make a module about the size of a golf cart battery. That is what I
have done with that size of cell, and placed them in the battery boxes that
used to hold 6V golf-cart batteries. These 3-cell modules provide a nominal
voltage of a little over 10V each. The left-over 6V golf cart battery
spaces can be used to house 12V AGMs like DCS-75, to provide peak current
support. Cell management for charging is not difficult.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 8:30 PM
Subject: Switching from PbSO4
Mark replied to my ampabout POST, talking about changing
to NiCds.
Well, here we go again with another round of which battery
is better.
IMHO:
PbSO4 wet cells are affordable and off the shelf.
But they are heavy, have low energy density, need maintenance,
and die young (1 to 3 years, your driving may differ).
We all have heard the small lots of used NiCds that someone
is offering. Usually these are a rare find from a surplus
outlet, or worst case they are rinsed off gems that were
found buried on military land.
NiMH and Li-ion seem to be only offered in small sub-cells
that have to be welded together making a low amperage pack.
These chemistries need a battery management box to control
the cooling of the cells, and the charge current.
While the life of these chemistries will be longer than
PbSO4, they are much more expensive to purchase.
I am not at the point to jump the PbSO4 ship just yet. Since
there are no EV repair companies near me (way too far away),
I would have to do all the conversion work myself.
Things that will take research time, and money:
-Finding a 'good price' on a large quantity purchase of the same
type of cell (not the one off, odd-ball old military NiCds).
-Finding a welder to put NiMH or Li-ion sub-cells together
into a battery that allows cooling air-flow and has the
amperage needed to move a 5000 lb EV.
-Buying a new charger that has an algorithm for these chemistries
'and' can be controlled by the battery-management box to reduce
charging current (temps go up, current has to go down).
-And lastly, since there is no off-the-shelf
battery-management-box,
I would have to build my own. This is enough of head-ache to
keep most from switching away from PbSO4.
Yet, it is exciting to see the cost of these chemistries drop.
A little web searching and it looks like someone is offering
cells pre-welded and shirk-wrapped:
http://www.batterystation.com/configurations.htm
I think configuration 38 would be the best they have to offer.
multiple #38 packs could be put in parallel to increase the
amperage and amphour capacity.
Watt do you think?
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am about to purchase a used tilton triple plate clutch for my EV
conversioin, The idea is that the reduced Moment of inertia from
stock will make it easier to shift and also the reduced diameter
will make it easy to dissassemble(the clutch can come off with motor
because it is smaller diameter than the motor)
I will use the small button flywhell or make my own with an
integrated taperlock, I need to wait till I see the parts.
Issues:
The point is that tilton told me that a steal button flywheel is
lighter than the aluminum with the insert on the smaller diameter
clutches, only use alum on large diameter clutches
These clutches are not recommended for street use, the are too
harsh on taking off. In an ICE you must slip the tires to pull off
the line. I am thinking this is not a problem because you already
start in gear on an electric
These clutches can handle a lot of torque, and same torque off
line as @rpm (unlike some "center-force" design) the problem is that
the throwout bearing thrust is 3 to 5 times a stock clutch and we
won't have the benifit of a main crank bearing to work against. Does
anyone know how much end shaft thrust can safely be applied to a
warp 9 ?. Otmar I saw you used a multiplate clutch, is there extra
bearings in that "dual motor box"?
Anyone want to share their thoughts on this?
Hi Jeff,
I used the Tilton copper triple plate 7.25" setup on my 914. It
worked very well. I still have it in there but I no longer release it.
1) The grab felt fine for street use with the electric motors (and a
Zilla of course, might be a problem with a Curtis). I'm sure it would
wear quickly if you slipped it much.
2) The clutch pressure on mine did not seem much higher than what I
was used to. I do not use extra bearings. I only used the shifting
for a couple thousand miles. Just until the transmission grenaded. I
never hooked up the shifter or clutch on the new transmission.
3) The clutch is not smaller than the alignment ring on the motor, so
I'm not sure where the diameter benefit helps. I suppose it depends
on the design of the adaptor plate.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004, Doug Hartley wrote:
1) Valence makes Lithium Ion batteries packaged in PbSO4 AGM battery style
plastic cases with the cell/battery management electronics built-in:
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
Apparently, you can charge them like lead acid.
So I'd assume 56% of 666% of a lead acid battery price, but of course I
don't see prices on the site.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know what type of engineering or accounting units are used by
Valence for cost of ownership! The comparison is suspect to me as, under
similar conditions, Interstate claims 900 cycles for DCS-33 U1 AGM batteries
, 3 times the figure Valence uses in their comparison. Even 2 times more
AGM life would then make the Valence Li Ion more expensive for cost of
ownership. In considering Li Ion, it is probably wise to assume it will be
more expensive than AGM, but enables a better EV in terms of range, handling
and charging efficiency.
Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derrick J Brashear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: Switching from PbSO4
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004, Doug Hartley wrote:
1) Valence makes Lithium Ion batteries packaged in PbSO4 AGM battery
style plastic cases with the cell/battery management electronics
built-in:
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp
Apparently, you can charge them like lead acid.
So I'd assume 56% of 666% of a lead acid battery price, but of course I
don't see prices on the site.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Jr Not Changing tho talks clean)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
NEWSWEEK: Bill Ford Jr. Ready to Revive His Clean Revolution at
Auto Company; Says His 'Passion for the Environment Hasn't
Waned,' But Events 'Overtook' Him When He Became CEO
Says He Won't Veer Off The Garden Path Again;
'If People Judge
This Is The Wrong Path to Be On,
Then I'm Not The Guy to Do The Job...
I'm Not Changing'
NEW YORK, Dec. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Ford Motor Co. CEO Bill Ford Jr.
tells Newsweek that he's ready to restart his clean revolution
now that his company is no longer losing money. "My passion for
the environment hasn't waned one bit over the years," he tells
Detroit Bureau Chief Keith Naughton in the current issue. "It's
just that events overtook me when I became CEO, and the fires
were raging everywhere."
Now Ford won't publicly commit to any hard targets, even refusing
to confirm leaks from his own execs that Ford is aiming to cut in
half the global-warming gases coming from its cars by 2030, which
will require an 80 percent boost in gas mileage. "These are the
kind of issues I'm driving personally," he says. "But I won't
speak externally to numbers because a cynic would say, 'Well,
it's easy to make a promise that far in the future'." He's right,
Naughton reports, but even his allies want something tangible on
how he's cleaning up his cars in the next five years-not in a
quarter-century. "We're rooting for him," says environmental
shareholder activist Mindy Lubber. "But he's got to act sooner."
Ford's long-awaited gas-electric-hybrid Escape SUV is finally on
the road and he's cranked up his new ecofriendly factory, with
the world's largest "living roof" blanketed in flowering ground
cover. He's even convened a panel of young execs to tackle the
thorny issue of how Ford can clean up its cars to combat global
warming. The boyish optimism he once displayed about saving the
planet has now been replaced by a world-weary determination to
re-establish Ford's green credibility-and his own, Naughton
reports in the December 13 issue of Newsweek (on newsstands
Monday, December 6).
Ford's next hybrid, a Mercury version of the Escape, won't arrive
until 2006, while Toyota will launch as many as four new hybrids
next year. Bill Ford clearly doesn't like playing catch-up. "I
can't control what people think of Toyota," he says. "All I can
control is what they think of us. And that's what I'm working
really hard to get right." He knows it will take more than one
hybrid and one clean factory. And he insists he won't veer off
the garden path again. "Ultimately, if people judge this is the
wrong road to be on, then I'm not the guy to do the job," he
says. "Because I'm not changing."
(Article attached. Read Newsweek's news releases at
http://www.Newsweek.com.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6652237/site/newsweek/
SOURCE Newsweek CO: Newsweek ST: New York SU:
Web site: http://www.newsweek.msnbc.com
http://www.prnewswire.com 12/05/2004 11:57 EST
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> But why does the series/parallel switch in series wound DC motors work
> so nicely? Reality, that's why.
>
I've noticed my 4 pole, series, ADC motor has the field poles in series and
the armature poles in parallel. We have already heard much about the racing
folks switching the field circuits from series to parallel to weaken the
field to get more top end torque. Now, can we pull the same series/
parallel trick on the armature of a single motor, similar to what is being
discussed for a two motor drive? For higher low end torque, change the
armature poles to a series arrangement, then back to parallel for the normal
top end torque? Thanks, Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday 27 December 2004 02:56, garry wrote:
> Im sure there are people far more qualified to tell you about the motor
> part of this than me, but it would help you to un-abreviate "power"
> back to its original meaning, which is horsepower and then you can look
> it up and get its definition.
Power is not an abreviation of horsepower. Horesepower is just power expressed
in terms one might(could) understand back in the day when they came up with
the term. It is easier to imagine the power required to lift 550 pounds by
one foot in one second than the mysterious flow of Joules from one distance
to the other in one second. :-)
--
Peace can only come as a natural consequence
of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, lighter is better, but when a decision has to be made and the choices
are 2400, 2600, and 2800lbs, is ~200lbs a moot point? In drag racing, it's
been said that the 1/4 mile time is reduced by a 1/10th of a second for
every 100lbs removed. What type of effect on range does 200 or 400lbs have
on an EV around town and going down the highway?
If I use google and type in the name of some car or truck, followed by the
words curb weight, I get all sorts of numbers:
Some good Saturn numbers:
http://www.differentracing.com/tech_articles/curbweight.html
Dodge Neon numbers:
http://www.neons.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37657
Ford Focus and Chevy Cavilier: ~2600 - 2700lbs
90 - 92 Ford Ranger: ~2800 - 3100lbs depending on ext cab or not:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2038
93-97: 2900 - 3300lbs
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2039
Chevy S-10: 2800 - 3000
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2011
That site in general has a lot of curb weight numbers for all sorts of
vehicles.
Hope it helps.
Regards.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Driving down the highway for example, those 8" and 9" Advanced D.C. motors,
what is their ideal/optimal rpm to be ran at for extended periods?
If the speed limit is 60 or 65 for example, the ideal rpm could be had by
first getting it roughly close by swapping out the ring and pinion gears in
the differential. Then it could be fine tuned by tire height selection..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I try and run mine at 5K-6K before shifting.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Driving down the highway for example, those 8" and
> 9" Advanced D.C. motors,
> what is their ideal/optimal rpm to be ran at for
> extended periods?
>
> If the speed limit is 60 or 65 for example, the
> ideal rpm could be had by
> first getting it roughly close by swapping out the
> ring and pinion gears in
> the differential. Then it could be fine tuned by
> tire height selection..
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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On 23 Dec 2004 at 16:31, bruce parmenter wrote:
> Well times have changed. The prices of batteries always goes up ...
Actually, not always. The price fluctuates with the market price of lead.
Sometimes if you can put off the purchase for six months, you can get a
better deal.
Given the number of modules you need, you might also try contacting the
folks at USBMC to see what it would cost to have them arrange a deal for
you. Might be cheaper than your dealer's cost - might not. Can't hurt to
ask.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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To understand the Republican party (or the Democratic party,
for that matter), it is most efficient to look directly at the clients -
or as political scientist Thomas Ferguson would call them, the
"major investors." On that level, the ideological contradictions are
unimportant. Political parties do function as mediating institutions,
only not for voters.
-- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People"
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This looks like a great opportunity for Commutercars/Phoenix/(insert EV
company with great idea but no capital) to partner up with a Chinese EV
company, spend a couple of years making their dream a reality, then
moving back to their home country with the next version of
Tango/Sparrow/(whatever) with the experience of several hundred (maybe
even thousand) real world production cars behind it.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Dekker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 2:16 PM
To: ETList; EV SJS; EV world; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 2005 goal: More electric vehicles for China
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FL25Ad03.html
BEIJING - Developing electric vehicles is a major goal for 2005. China
has allocated 880
million yuan (US$106.3 million) for developing electric vehicles with
the purpose of
energy conservation and environment protection.
__________________________________
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Six? Only three were in it. Who got the other three?
The best one only goes 19 Ahr at 15 amps.
The darned headlight, contactors and horn run off the 12 volt tap on the
pack imbalancing it something fierce. I need a 36 volt input DCDC to cure
that problem. I hope to get a PWM on it too. That contactor controller
resistors smell like burnt cedar boughs every time I try to go slow with it.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Golf cart vs. AGM wars
>
> Plus the fact is Joe just absconded with my Golf Cart.... at least it's
out
> of my drive way, and Joe and Kenny(Joe's 5 year old) are going to have a
> Ball with it.
> It has 6 of my worst Yts in it.... and it will soon have some Saft NiCads,
> for some real range.
>
>
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On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 18:04:30 +1100, "Mark Fowler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This looks like a great opportunity for Commutercars/Phoenix/(insert EV
> company with great idea but no capital) to partner up with a Chinese EV
> company, spend a couple of years making their dream a reality, then
> moving back to their home country with the next version of
> Tango/Sparrow/(whatever) with the experience of several hundred (maybe
> even thousand) real world production cars behind it.
No, this is certainly no opportunity for the overpriced and overpowered
cars from this companies. China needs cheap multipurpose cars and
scooters to replace the 2-stroke vehicles first. And most of the money
will go into this market.
Emil
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On 27 Dec 2004 at 21:40, Doug Hartley wrote:
> Valence makes Lithium Ion batteries packaged in PbSO4 AGM battery style
> plastic cases with the cell/battery management electronics built-in
Somebody over on the Force_ev yahoo list is using these in his Force. He
seems to like them so far. No idea of the cost, but if they're available at
a price that mere mortals can handle, this could be a very practical EV
battery.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament],
"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will
the right answers come out?" I am not able rightly to apprehend the
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
-- Charles Babbage
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There are four brushes alternating positive and negative around the
commutator. All four quadrants of the armature are in parallel.
How are you going to rearrange the armature poles to put them in series?
The best I can imagine would be to change the polarity of two field poles to
make it a two pole motor and then use only one pair of opposing brushes.
That would take four contactors (or a polarity reverser) to switch the field
and then three more to do the armature switching. It should produce twice
the torque per amp and build back EMF twice as fast.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > But why does the series/parallel switch in series wound DC motors work
> > so nicely? Reality, that's why.
> >
> I've noticed my 4 pole, series, ADC motor has the field poles in series
and
> the armature poles in parallel. We have already heard much about the
racing
> folks switching the field circuits from series to parallel to weaken the
> field to get more top end torque. Now, can we pull the same series/
> parallel trick on the armature of a single motor, similar to what is being
> discussed for a two motor drive? For higher low end torque, change the
> armature poles to a series arrangement, then back to parallel for the
normal
> top end torque? Thanks, Mark T.
>
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Another possibility: Combining a bunch of C or D cell Nicads, like
the Twike did. Cheaper than Nimh or Lion, better power if you get
lower resistance (like Sanyo N3000CR), better range than lead but
less than Nimh or Lion. Care must be taken to only parallel under
load.
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Well, here we go again with another round of which battery
> is better.
>
> IMHO:
> PbSO4 wet cells are affordable and off the shelf.
> But they are heavy, have low energy density, need maintenance,
> and die young (1 to 3 years, your driving may differ).
>
> We all have heard the small lots of used NiCds that someone
> is offering. Usually these are a rare find from a surplus
> outlet, or worst case they are rinsed off gems that were
> found buried on military land.
>
> NiMH and Li-ion seem to be only offered in small sub-cells
> that have to be welded together making a low amperage pack.
> These chemistries need a battery management box to control
> the cooling of the cells, and the charge current.
>
> While the life of these chemistries will be longer than
> PbSO4, they are much more expensive to purchase.
>
> I am not at the point to jump the PbSO4 ship just yet. Since
> there are no EV repair companies near me (way too far away),
> I would have to do all the conversion work myself.
>
> Things that will take research time, and money:
> -Finding a 'good price' on a large quantity purchase of the same
> type of cell (not the one off, odd-ball old military NiCds).
>
> -Finding a welder to put NiMH or Li-ion sub-cells together
> into a battery that allows cooling air-flow and has the
> amperage needed to move a 5000 lb EV.
>
> -Buying a new charger that has an algorithm for these chemistries
> 'and' can be controlled by the battery-management box to reduce
> charging current (temps go up, current has to go down).
>
> -And lastly, since there is no off-the-shelf
> battery-management-box,
> I would have to build my own. This is enough of head-ache to
> keep most from switching away from PbSO4.
>
> Yet, it is exciting to see the cost of these chemistries drop.
>
> A little web searching and it looks like someone is offering
> cells pre-welded and shirk-wrapped:
> http://www.batterystation.com/configurations.htm
>
> I think configuration 38 would be the best they have to offer.
> multiple #38 packs could be put in parallel to increase the
> amperage and amphour capacity.
>
> Watt do you think?
> ...
=====
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http://www.robotcombat.com/marketplace_batteries.html offers custom NiCd and
NiMh battery packs as well.They have an option to install battery spacers to
put about .060 between the cells and packaging them to allow airflow through
the battery packs. Their site is being reconstructed now but is labeled to
be up soon.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: Switching from PbSO4
> Mark replied to my ampabout POST, talking about changing
> to NiCds.
>
> Yet, it is exciting to see the cost of these chemistries drop.
>
> A little web searching and it looks like someone is offering
> cells pre-welded and shirk-wrapped:
> http://www.batterystation.com/configurations.htm
>
> I think configuration 38 would be the best they have to offer.
> multiple #38 packs could be put in parallel to increase the
> amperage and amphour capacity.
>
> Watt do you think?
>
>
> =====
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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Seen a few ideas tossed around - drive the front axle of a 4x4 with a motor,
and the rear with an ICE - that sort of thing. And of course there's always
mounting generators on-board, or super-capacitors, etc.
What about this idea? Now, the idea of an "acceleration pack" or "hybrid
pack" is probably an old idea - having some batteries which are used for
acceleration (maybe AGMs), and others for cruising (floodeds). And I'm the
last guy
who could be considered an expert, but I believe the problem with this idea
(according to others) is that with a hybrid pack there's a tendancy for the
AGMs
to always want to supply more power than the rest of the pack, or something
like that (correct me if I'm wrong). Well I don't know if this has been
proposed before, but what about a full pack of floodeds, and a small pack of
AGMs
that can be "switched in" with a contactor when you need to accelerate onto
that
interstate ramp? I don't know the best method - I'll leave that part up to
the EV gurus and EE types on the list - but it could be switched in series with
the rest of the pack, in parallel, or perhaps the best is to "switch out" a
certain portion of the floodeds and "switch in" the AGMs so that voltages and
what not stay the same. Anyway, this eliminates the problem of the AGMs always
wanting to supply more power than the rest of the pack, because with this idea
they are only doing so when you WANT them to supply more power than the rest
of the pack (when you need acceleration and high currents). The AGMs, in a
sense, are a "flooded-pack protector."
Anyway, have no idea if that's been proposed before, or if it's been done
already, but add one more crappy idea from an EV idiot to the rest.
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Read some good responses from some knowledgeable-sounding folks. Let me
respond to this answer to my question at the top:
>1) if you are getting "twice the torque"
>then what are you giving up (power perhaps)?
>1) The power is the same either way. You get twice the torque at 1/2
>the RPM (roughly speaking, in an ideal series wound motor you would
>get 4 times the torque at 1/4 the RPM
Okay, that was my suspicion, basically. "There is no free lunch" so to
speak, so the power is the same.
But if the power is the same, then what's the difference? I have two
identical cars, except that one has two motors in series, and the other only
has one
motor. I have two identical drivers, and they are both on the drag strip. I
say "go!" and they both floor the accelerator at the exact same time. At this
point, one car is making "twice the torque at half the RMP" and one car is
making "single the torque at full RMP" but both are making the exact same
power.
Is there a difference? Which car wins?
If you say that one car (the two motors in series car) "pulls harder," then
doesn't that translate into more power at the wheels? Well, no, because we
have just said that power is identical. Both cars have exactly the same power.
So the question becomes, is all power created equal, or not? Is some power
"better" or "more powerful" than other power? When I am measuring power at the
rear wheels on both of these cars, is it possible to say "yeah, they are both
the same power, but that car is still pulling harder than this one, and will
win?"
If you tell me there is no difference in power or pulling ability between the
cars, and both will cross the finish line the exact same time, then I will
ask "then why bother setting up two motors in series in the first place?"
If these are perceived as stupid questions, please forgive me. I'm not
trying to be difficult - I just want to learn. I actually have a fairly good
college physics background and what not - that's why I'm asking the questions.
In
fact, a little bit of knowlege is a dangerous thing, they say. Perhaps if I
had no physics knowledge at all I wouldn't be asking anything. But to me,
power was always power, and was always "created equal" if you know what I mean.
Thanks.
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