EV Digest 3996
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Refining Hybrid truck ideas
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) TS LiIon musings and test cycle
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC musings
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Gadget's got a brand new bag, was Re: Cedric's bike
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: AC musings
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Power steering...wahoo!!
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Finish charge on the Elec-Trak Hawkers
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC musings
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) About to purchase batteries
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Ampabout: What are those for?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) TS cell info
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Need a Datsun (Maybe OT)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: wire cutting machine
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) TS cell pricing
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: wire cutting machine
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: About to purchase batteries
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: TS cell info
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Power steering...wahoo!!
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: wire cutting machine
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: TS LiIon musings and test cycle
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry I haven't been following this thread but here is a few thoughts and
ideas for a hybrid truck.
Start with a conventional ICE pickup, say 4 cylinder two wheel drive,
manual trans, power brakes, power steering and air conditioning. Remove
the stock power steering pump and substitute the electric pump from an
MR2. Add a 12 volt vacuum pump to support the power brakes. Drive the A/C
compressor with a 120 VDC motor. Install an EV drive motor under the cab
parallel to the transmission. Add a sprocket or pulley mounted on the
original transmission tail shaft concentric with the drive shaft. A chain
or toothed belt would transfer power from the motor to the sprocket,
turning the drive shaft and thus the rear wheels. If you got clever you
could even include regen to recover power when decelerating in both EV and
ICE mode. The battery pack could be mounted in the bed inside an
enclosure, or if small enough, fitted in outside the frame rails under the
bed. Squeeze a controller and a DC/DC converter in under the hood, the
charger in the back of the cab, reversing contactors under the cab and you
have a setup. Top it off with a modified 3 phase motor acting as a
generator driven by the ICE. In EV mode the ICE would be off and the trans
in neutral. Power steering, power brakes, and A/C would be fully
functional. In ICE mode, all accessories would still work and power would
be available to recharge the pack.
Problems? Heavy. Poor acceleration with only one EV "gear" in EV
mode. Can't gear the EV drive low enough without risking over-reving the
motor in ICE mode. I am sure there are more I haven't thought of.
Anyway, just food for thought.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Phillipe suggested, I have been gathering equipment for some time to
be able to run various tests on TS LiIon batteries. I have 94 90AH
cells, and have put some tests (one by Lee Hart, many by Chris Brune,
and some by me) on my website at ev.whitecape.org. I have not put any
cells into my car, and won't until I have both the proper BMS and, more
importantly, understand how to take care of them!
More recently, I ran a 18A/4.25V charge CC/CV charge cycle, 25A CC
discharge cycle, and CC/CV recharge on 92 of the cells. Every 10 minutes
during the discharge cycle, I (still manually) paused the discharge
for a minute to attempt to measure the internal resistance at various SOC.
Since I have 94 cells, and only plan to use 64 near term (now that I
must use a hybrid pack), I have an ample supply for testing. While these
cells (it turns out) were a bit old when I got them in 2003, they all
had a good charge on them. In addition, I have been measuring their
voltages every month and bring up the ones below 3.5V with a 3-12A/4.0V
CC/CV charge.
Here is the problem/mystery for your consideration. While the average
capacity of the cells at this discharge rate is now about 60.88 AH, four
cells (89-92) that have through more charge/discharge cycles from
various tests are down to 40.88, 27.67, 27.31, and 27.98 AH,
respectively (see LiIonCellSummary.xls on the website). In addition, I
used lower draws even to get this AH rating for these four cells. The
question is: what did I do to adversely impact these cells during testing?
Only a few were subjected to higher currents. Once we saw the quick
temperature rise, however, I now restrict the current to 25A. In a
discharge cycle, I still have no cooling, other than the winter
temperatures in my garage of 9 degrees C. The temperature measured
between the cases of two cells in a typical discharge test started at 9
degrees C and finished at 40 degrees C by the end of the test, some less
than 3 hours later (don't forget the 1 minute pauses every 10 minutes).
The temperature fell off fairly quickly once the discharge cycle was
completed.
Right now I'm thinking that I might want to go to the (undocumented)
pulse charging algorithm. Also, I am thinking about putting the cells in
a box with a blower and temperature control circuit to vary the speed to
maintain the (external) temperature in the 20-30 degree C range.
So, any thoughts on the why I'm losing capacity or test cycle details
would be appreciated. I would like to conduct a meaningful life cycle
test, so specifying all the parameters would be useful. I may start with
a new cell, but for now I would like to get the testing process set up
with one of my somewhat old, but otherwise unused cells.
Gary
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> less active material means less Li ion intercallation or holding. Li
> -ion doesn't change it's active materials chemical composition like lead
> acid batteries do. Therfore it has higher cycle life.
> until you overcharge,overheat,store at elevated temperature, or
spring > a leak
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Do you have a nice clean controller?
If not I could check out the basement stock, I know
I have a couple of new EV100 SCR controls, probably
not the dual motor control type.
You have lots of resources in your business, but I
might have some hardware that may be usefull. I also
have many contactors in very good condition.
Rod
P.S. I wrote the software for a dual motor control
while at GE. If your really bored you could read the
assembly code for a system that has dual motor
control, regen and field weakening (for 2 motors!)
with a wheel angle sensor that makes the software even
more fun.
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lift really heavy things....
> like EVs, and battery packs...
> He's gonna keep it usefull.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 5:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
>
>
> > Are you going to put a zilla in it? What is it's
> top speed? What on
> > earth are you going to _do_ with it?!?
> >
> > >> Got pictures?
> > >>
> > >> How high does it go?
> > >>
> > >> Joe Smalley
> > >
> > > Considering it's John, you've got to figure it's
> good for at least one
> > > story,
> > > maybe more - he's gotta stack 'em pretty high to
> make room...
> > >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The trick though I guess is getting a 1hp-ish motor to run the
> compressor. On the Prizm it's a 300 volt brushless DC motor that is
> direct coupled to the compressor and runs right off the pack. I doubt a
> 12 volt motor would work. However, someone might make a 1-ish hp 120
> volt motor, and since these are usually universal, you could run that
> right off the average EV main pack (120v) with reasonable wires.
Plenty of 120vdc treadmill motors around in the 1-2hp range on eBay or
sciplus.com - might be nice to have a low current 120v controller to adjust the
motor speed to load, but I guess fan speed has a similar effect.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Could be... I'm pitching a new show that is based on
> alternative energy/transportation, renewable
> resources, and sustainable architecture. I want to do
> a show that solves problems for people in an
> environmentally responsible way.
>
> Gadget
Wow! Too bad I can't make anything, just daydream! How 'bout a strawbale house
with rammed earth internal walls and passive air exchange? Oops, getting off
topic. Let us know what happens (I'm in NorCal, if I can help).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> might be nice to have a low current 120v controller to
> adjust the
> motor speed to load,
Would one of these work?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43060
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan, glad to hear it is working out well with the MR2 pump. I cannot wait
until I try mine out.
Here are a couple of things I am building into my EV, which may help with
the range and the noise:
1. for the vacuum pump, I am enclosing it in a case packed with fiberglass
batting. The vacuum pump can still "breathe" well, but is much quieter.
Better rubber mounts did not seem to help mine much - so it is just
"floating" in a sea of fiberglass batting.
2. for the batteries, I followed what Al does with his Porsche: using
winter battery warmers underneath the batteries to warm them while charging.
They are 50w each, and I have a fix 30 deg C (90 deg F?) thermostat to keep
the batteries at the correct temp. The battery boxes are also insulated
with 1/2" of closed cell foam.
Caveat emptor: although I am building these into my New Beetle, I have not
yet tried them out, so you may want to check with the list first.
Yahoo! Can't wait to my driving my EV like yours!
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: January 1, 2005 10:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Power steering...wahoo!!
Hi everyone, and hapy new year!
John, that forklift sounds awesome! I can't wait to see pictures of the
finished product.
I just took my first run in the 200sx with power steering. It was great. I
have been frustrated by the PS for awhile, wishing the 200sx never had had
it. I probably would have driven it for awhile without, but the state
inspection requires the PS to be working if the vehicle originally had it.
I took the advice of several list members to use the Toyota MR2 pump.
After having a new fitting put on the existing power steering hose, things
went together very nicely.
When I first turned the pump on, I thought there was a problem with my
wiring - I couldn't hear it over my blower and vacuum pump. I put my hand
on the power steering pump to see if I could feel it running. I couldn't.
Hmm...I turned off my motor blower, and then I could hear a whine. When I
started turning the steering wheel, it made a more noticeable whine, but
certainly no worse than the original power steering pump. I was very
impressed. Altogether, the 200sx is quieter than it was with an ICE. Much
quieter with the vacuum pump off. I need some better rubber mounts to take
out some of the vibration noises.
I'm loving the EV! The only thing that has been a reality check is the
range. With only 12 Orbitals, my range in the 20-30 degree weather seems to
top out at about 6 miles. That gets me to all the necessary places I need
to go, but limits me a bit more than I thought it would.
Oh well. I look forward to a bit more range in the summer. Maybe 10 miles?
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just checked the tractor again after a long day of driving it. The main
batteries (t105's) were all full (all three LEDs on, all at 14.7v per
pair) with a pack voltage of 44.5 volts.
The Hakwers were also on an overall voltage of 44.5 volts, however 2
batteries were at 15.1 volts, one at 14.3 volts. The finishing current
thu the hawker string at the time however was 50ma. Pretty low.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked at the 200 ah model at 5.5kg. A 48v pack in my Lectra
weighs(14modules) the same as four optimas but gives 200 ah. I couldn't
find a price list for these cells so I wrote the company. I have a small
problem with the cells at 48v. The 3.6v style doesn't match up to 48v well
13.3 modules. Do people use an extra cell and under charge? I would be
tempted to use an extra cell and hope my setup could take the extra two
volts and charge normally. Lawrence Rhodes.............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
"Mucking around" seems the appropriate term - their numbers don't make a
lot of
sense: in terms of energy density, their LCP95AHA cells look the best at
2.4kg
for 95Ah, but why would losing 20% of the weight only cost you a loss of
5% of
capacity, especially when the LCP90AHA has another 5Ah drop but only
100gm less
weight? Makes you dubious about performance until you can get some cells
independently tested.
They'd make sense if all the cell data was up on the site. Some cells are
tailored for higher energy density, some for higher power density, and
some for higher cycle life. It's the same for any chemistry. Some of the
NiMH cells used in hybrids have lower energy density than lead acid. That
was part of the problem with the 90Ah TS cells that some people bought.
To confuse matters even more TS have introduced some Lithium Cobalt cells
along side their Lithium Manganese line.
The reason that TS cells are so cheap is not so much labour costs (it's
meant to be a pretty well automated line) but more because they designed
them to be cheap. Their electrodes are much thicker than other production
cells (up to 20 times thicker!) and they're using the cheaper options for
many other ingredients. The result is 50% of the performance of other
Lithiums, but at 20% of the cost (or less!). The big difference is that
you, as an individual, can buy as many as you want, right now!
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > might be nice to have a low current 120v controller to
> > adjust the
> > motor speed to load,
>
>
> Would one of these work?
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43060
No, this type uses AC input - most 120v DC controllers handle way more current
than you'd need for this application; that's why I said it "would be nice",
since you'd probably need to build it yourself!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After a number of months of investigation, I am about to purchase batteries.
However, I still am unsure of which battery to purchase. Here are my vehicle
specs:
- New Beetle (est. curb weight 3700 lbs)
- Siemens AC system
- 312-332 Volts
- 26-28 batteries
- Approx 1000 lbs available for batteries
- Estimate no more that 200 Amp current draw
After a **lot** of analysis, I have boiled it down to two batteries:
Hawker Genesis G42EP
* VRLA AGM
* 42 Amp Hour
* 33 lbs each, 925 lbs for the pack
* $3700 for the pack
* AGM is more sensitive to charging, requires BMS
* AGM delivers power - no problem
* 500 lifecycles
* AGM is common use by many EVers, and is recommended
Deka Dominator 8G34
* VRLA Gel
* 60 Amp Hours
* 42 lbs each, 1190 lbs for the pack (somewhat heavy)
* $3000 for the pack
* Gel is more tolerant to pack imbalances, but still benefits with a BMS
* These have been used in many vehicles by Solectria with lots of success
* Gel cannot deliver much more that 200-250 Amps - but still OK for high
voltage AC
* 500-900 lifecycles
* Gel is not preferred by many EVers on the list
I really prefer the Gels - in theory. They should provided enough power,
last longer, be less affected by balancing issues, thus being much more cost
effective. But I am concerned that I will simply be buying a battery based
on spec - not reality. I have asked a number of Solectria users about
their Deka Gel batteries and have received all positive feedback.
Thoughts? Comments?
thanks
Don
P.S. I have not listed the Optimas or the Orbitals because they just are
too heavy/bulky and just won't fit into the vehicle
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
New Year Eve was different, I had to work.
My pack is still strong enough to get me to work and a little
shopping (15 miles), but that Friday, I ordered a replacement
pack. 22 US125s should come in about two weeks.
There wasn't very many people at work (which nice for me) and
most of them bail'd after 11 am. Only the hard-core coders were
running back and forth between the computer room and their desks.
With a look on their faces like they have two guns to their head
to complete their deadlines.
Since the afternoon was so quiet, I had the the EAA Historian
come be 'my' visitor at work. Normally, I can't do this because, I
am point man and quite busy with interruptions all day long
(everyone comes to my desk).
He and I spent the afternoon to evening loading various Linux
distributions into his PC, until we found one he was happy with.
Starting with Knppix 3.7, and later using the high bandwidth at
work to download a 740 Mb iso (CD image) in only a few minutes
(blows the doors off of taking days with bittorrent through a
skinny modem).
We only broke off at 7 pm to go out and have dinner while,
hopefully the 'last one' was installing (Kanotix-204-fix2). So,
instead of us going out and whooping it up at all night New
Year's Eve party, we kept a clear head and were quite productive.
(boring huh?) The dinner was nice. We finished up and got out of
there to head home around 10 pm.
My EV had been parked in the cold rain the West Coast has
socked-in with. Though I have plate battery warmers, there is no
outlet to plug into at this Hi-tech park. I have already talked
to the building owner's (Jay Paul) about being able to access
power. Even if I found an existing 120VAC (5-20) outlet near the
parking lot, they are not interested in letting me plug in.
My pack is sluggish when cold, plus with the rain slick roads, I
am a less demanding driver and accelerate slower. As I leave the
complex's entrance, I wave goodbye to the guard sitting in his
truck blocking the entrance like a road block. It reminds me that
my position is warm and cushy compared to him (I could be the one
stuck sitting out in the cold wind and rain all night).
New Year's Day, I got some chores done. I made room for Jim Ramos
of American Battery to deliver my twenty-two US125's. I hope the
weekend following his delivery is not raining. After I put my
twenty-two US145s where the US125's were (my doorstep), I will
need them picked up.
In the the past, the dead cores were picked up by other EAA
members who took them to our San Jose EAA Chapter battery man,
Don Gillis. He goes through them to not only test them for a
couple of good batteries for other members to use, but also to
gather data on the battery's characteristics.
That night, I also cranked out another PC to be sold to generate
cash for the EV charging infrastructure. But sales are slow
right now. These are old PCs, School has already started, and
Xmas is over. Time to put on my salesman hat and see if I can
move these out.
Today (Sunday) is another drippy (NorthWest) wet day. A brief
pause in the showers let me hobble between the rain drops to see
that my pack had finished it's charge and had shut its self off
at 154VDC. I get unpredictable results when charging this old pack.
Sometimes after charging an extra 30 amphours, I am just burning /
boiling off water. I just unplug at that point. If the pack has
not reached its finish voltage by then, it never will.
Before the showers started up again, I pulled some carrots and a
large beet from my garden (part of tonight's dinner). As I was
cleaning them up and clipping the tops off getting ready to head
inside, a neighbor made a extra effort to come out an yak at me.
Usually my neighbors come and go all the time (here today, gone
tomorrow). They are mostly drifting soles, or contractor
construction types that chase their work around the country. They
keep to themselves for the most part.
He leans over the wobbly old fence asks "Why is there a cord
in my grill?"
My jowls raised up an inch on each side of my face as I smiled
and said, "Its an Electric car".
The licence plate on his rig said Oregon. I turned back to what I
was doing while he continued, "Electric huh. ... But why have all
those outlets ..."
I said, "Those are inlets. You know to charge the batteries."
He stared at me for a second, while I tossed the carrot tops
into the compose pile.
"But why six" he asked. "How many do you need?"
I had already read his body language and could see by the
newspaper under his arm and cup in his hand, I was not going to
get much time to go into technical details. So I gave him the
layman's-layman version.
"Automakers say it take 6 hours, I only take one. I can charge
faster.", I said.
Now I had peaked his interest, even though he turned his
newspaper downward to reduce how rain soggy it was getting. If
he was going to stick around, I could give him an earful.
He asked, "So how far can you go?"
I said, "With this battery, 50 miles. But the NiMH battery in the
Toyota RAV4 goes about 100. The Automakers stopped making these
before using the batteries we now have for our cell phones and
laptops. A lithium-ion pack would have been over 200 miles. ..."
He said, "It sounds like Politics ... ".
I said, "Its more than that. Its American capitalism, protecting
its own interests. Automakers would lose money on Electrics. They
are cheap to run, they need almost no maintenance, they very
reliable, they just don't break down ..."
"The Oil Companies are also involved too ...", he interjected.
I said, "Automakers, Oil companies, they are tied together, their
efforts are the same." (kill Electrics)
I said, "All this noise about hydrogen, and it is not being made
from water. (he looked at me puzzled - he did not know where it
comes from). It is being made from petroleum sources, so why
bother?"
With that he was noticing his coffee was cold and diluted with
rain. His rain soaked newspaper was sticking to his plastic
wind breaker.
Before he turned to go inside, I said, "We get about as much Oil
from South America. You can guess where our next war will be."
(Meaning, its about Oil)
He smiled and as he turned I said, "Don't get me started about
Automakers."
We both went in as the cloud burst poured down hard.
Well, I am an Army of one, doing my part to fight Big Oil, reduce
my part in causing this wacky weather (global climatic changes),
and to show the death-grip automakers have around our necks (one
type of car that "only" runs on petrol).
ta
:-zzz
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I looked at the 200 ah model at 5.5kg. A 48v pack in my Lectra
> weighs(14modules) the same as four optimas but gives 200 ah. I couldn't
> find a price list for these cells so I wrote the company. I have a small
> problem with the cells at 48v. The 3.6v style doesn't match up to 48v well
> 13.3 modules. Do people use an extra cell and under charge? I would be
> tempted to use an extra cell and hope my setup could take the extra two
> volts and charge normally.
48V controllers handle at least 60V, since that is what 4 12V batteries hit at
full charge, and the ones I've opened had 63V caps, so that's the absolute max;
4QD lists their max at 68V. If Cedric is using 18 cells, his Brusa controller is
probably a 72V model. My eLamby has a 4QD controller, so if I try a li-ion
setup, it will be with 15 cells for a 63V max.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ETEK NO WAY. These are used in 15mph golfcarts. That's about it. Maybe
two if you geared it right. Lawrence Rhodes......----- Original
Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Need a Datsun (Maybe OT)
Hi folks,
When I was in high school a good friend of mine drove this slightly abused
Datsun 210 wagon. It was an ugly orange color and she called it "agent
orange".
I had something of a twisted plan to try and find one of these in decent
shape
and maybe (I say MAYBE) turn it into an EV. It's by no means ideal, and
It
might turn out to be more a NEV than a true EV (say an E-tek and 36-48v
worth of
bats.
Or I might just fix it up and use it as a "I don't care what happens to
it"
commuter just to see the look on her face.
Anyway,
1: Anyone got a source on a mechanically functional Datsun 210?
2: Any ideas on where to get an adaptor plate to fit it?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can't comment on why but I need a lot of little wires. Using solid brass
22gauge. Not coated. No stripping. Simplist machine possible & yes I
found a 6rpm geared down cap start unit. I just need a cutter and someway
to actuate it. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
At 08:58 AM 2/01/05 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is there such a machine that will cut 22 gauge wire to different specified
length from 3 to 6 inches? It doesn't have to be precision maybe with in
.050 inch. Thanks in advance for any info. Lawrence Rhodes..........
Hi Lawrence
What a leading question....it would seem that you are after a *lot* of
short pieces of wire.
There are machines, and they are generally expensive. But most of the good
ones also strip the wire ends and crimp ferrules on as well. If you
contact a switchboard manufacturer they should be able to supply you with
cut wire lengths at a reasonable price, or direct you to the company that
they sub-out wire-up work to.
However, if you are a cheapskate like most of us tend to be, since 22
gauge is not that thick, and I assume PVC insulation (?) which is not that
strong, how about using a papercutting guillotine with a stop clamped to
it?
Why do you need so many 3 to 6 inch wires, anyway?
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be interested. I have a few vehicles & some spare time. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
Wonder if Rev. Gadget has a pew for those kind of
prayers...
Could be... I'm pitching a new show that is based on
alternative energy/transportation, renewable
resources, and sustainable architecture. I want to do
a show that solves problems for people in an
environmentally responsible way.
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The prices here are without shipping or BMS or anything else:
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery-pricing.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The wide range of voltage of lithium ion batteries, from fully charged down
to nearly discharged under load, creates a problem of either too much
voltage when charged or too little when near discharged, if you want to
operate near the controller's maximum (nominal voltage). Also, the Li cell
voltage does not drop down much when you stop charging, unlike lead acid
which drops about 10% within a few hours (e.g. 14.5V down to 13V). 14 cells
fully charged at nearly 60V, instead of the usual 56V, would be too high a
voltage for many 48V controllers such as my SRE unit. The controller might
lock out and refuse to apply power to the motor. If you under charge to
keep the maximum voltage lower, (for example, charge to only 4.0V), you
won't get the full Amp-Hr. capacity, maybe only 70 -80%.
I have used 3 remedies to this "problem" with my 2 EVs:
1) Reduce the pack by one cell temporarily:
Add a SPDT contactor and Diode to switch out one cell until the pack voltage
is low enough. (done with 84V pickup using 84V 1221R Curtis regen controller
and 26 cells). This can be controlled manually as I did it, or automatically
by sensing voltage and switching the extra cell back in as soon as the
voltage sags a bit under load.
2) Apply a load to reduce the voltage at the beginning of driving:
When I "stole" that contactor to use for 12V "turbo boost" for acceleration
under voltage sag( loaded) conditions, I started not charging quite full
(4.2V/cell instead of 4.25V) and putting the heater on for a minute when
first driving fully charged.
3) Change the controller to one that accepts the higher voltage:
For the hatchback that I migrated from 14 6V GC batteries to 8 12V DCS-75BT
AGM batteries, I was already over-voltage on the 84V 1221R controller, so I
was using the "heater trick" if I needed to drive soon after charging. Now
I have added 28 100 Amp-Hr. TS cells to aid the 8 DCS-75s. That will keep
the combined battery pack voltage high for a long time unless I separate the
2 strings with a contactor. I have just changed the 1221R - 84V
controller to my spare 1221R- 120. So there will be no more issues of too
high voltage for the controller (only too high regen voltage for the
batteries when regen braking with a more than 80% charged pack. A 96V
controller would be better suited, but that is not what I have. I can
add-on an over-voltage detection circuit or use the Regs output, to disable
regen. (I should probably have a timer to prevent "chattering", so if the
voltage goes too high the regen disable circuit trips off and stays no-regen
for a while). For first testing with the new "high voltage" controler,
there is always the "Regen off" button.
HTH.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
I looked at the 200 ah model at 5.5kg. A 48v pack in my Lectra
weighs(14modules) the same as four optimas but gives 200 ah. I couldn't
find a price list for these cells so I wrote the company. I have a small
problem with the cells at 48v. The 3.6v style doesn't match up to 48v well
13.3 modules. Do people use an extra cell and under charge? I would be
tempted to use an extra cell and hope my setup could take the extra two
volts and charge normally. Lawrence Rhodes.............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
"Mucking around" seems the appropriate term - their numbers don't make a
lot of
sense: in terms of energy density, their LCP95AHA cells look the best at
2.4kg
for 95Ah, but why would losing 20% of the weight only cost you a loss of
5% of
capacity, especially when the LCP90AHA has another 5Ah drop but only
100gm less
weight? Makes you dubious about performance until you can get some cells
independently tested.
They'd make sense if all the cell data was up on the site. Some cells are
tailored for higher energy density, some for higher power density, and
some for higher cycle life. It's the same for any chemistry. Some of the
NiMH cells used in hybrids have lower energy density than lead acid. That
was part of the problem with the 90Ah TS cells that some people bought.
To confuse matters even more TS have introduced some Lithium Cobalt cells
along side their Lithium Manganese line.
The reason that TS cells are so cheap is not so much labour costs (it's
meant to be a pretty well automated line) but more because they designed
them to be cheap. Their electrodes are much thicker than other production
cells (up to 20 times thicker!) and they're using the cheaper options for
many other ingredients. The result is 50% of the performance of other
Lithiums, but at 20% of the cost (or less!). The big difference is that
you, as an individual, can buy as many as you want, right now!
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
Can't comment on why but I need a lot of little wires.
Using solid brass
22gauge. Not coated. No stripping. Simplist machine
possible & yes I
found a 6rpm geared down cap start unit. I just need a
cutter and someway
to actuate it. Lawrence Rhodes.......
$4708...
http://www.contacteast.com/product/group.asp?parent_id=5456
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gel can go over 1500 charge cycles, according to the very positive
experience of my friend in Germany who has the same Skoda 84V car as I have,
using 14 6V Varta 160 Amp-Hr. batteries and no regulators. The charging
voltage typically has to be set lower for gel than for AGM or flooded, so as
not to damage them.
Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 10:15 PM
Subject: About to purchase batteries
After a number of months of investigation, I am about to purchase
batteries.
However, I still am unsure of which battery to purchase. Here are my
vehicle
specs:
- New Beetle (est. curb weight 3700 lbs)
- Siemens AC system
- 312-332 Volts
- 26-28 batteries
- Approx 1000 lbs available for batteries
- Estimate no more that 200 Amp current draw
After a **lot** of analysis, I have boiled it down to two batteries:
Hawker Genesis G42EP
* VRLA AGM
* 42 Amp Hour
* 33 lbs each, 925 lbs for the pack
* $3700 for the pack
* AGM is more sensitive to charging, requires BMS
* AGM delivers power - no problem
* 500 lifecycles
* AGM is common use by many EVers, and is recommended
Deka Dominator 8G34
* VRLA Gel
* 60 Amp Hours
* 42 lbs each, 1190 lbs for the pack (somewhat heavy)
* $3000 for the pack
* Gel is more tolerant to pack imbalances, but still benefits with a BMS
* These have been used in many vehicles by Solectria with lots of success
* Gel cannot deliver much more that 200-250 Amps - but still OK for high
voltage AC
* 500-900 lifecycles
* Gel is not preferred by many EVers on the list
I really prefer the Gels - in theory. They should provided enough power,
last longer, be less affected by balancing issues, thus being much more
cost
effective. But I am concerned that I will simply be buying a battery
based
on spec - not reality. I have asked a number of Solectria users about
their Deka Gel batteries and have received all positive feedback.
Thoughts? Comments?
thanks
Don
P.S. I have not listed the Optimas or the Orbitals because they just are
too heavy/bulky and just won't fit into the vehicle
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got the Curtis 1231C model that handles a "nominal" 144V. Anyone know
the maximum real voltage it can handle? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John S. and everyone else,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ryan,
Fill us in on the details!!
I will certainly going to be posting details about the whole thing.
That's going to become a list joke though - me updating my website :)
I've done a pathetic job, but hope to start getting pictures and text up.
Some of us don't remember the original
post and I'll be looking for an electrically driven power steering pump
soon. How it was hooked up, amp draw, how you did the whole adaptation, etc.
Thanks
John
Don Cameron, Sheer, and Nick Viera have posted information on their
sites. Here's the links:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/convpgs/psteer.php
http://www.brassrat.net/~sheer/ev/ps.html
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_PowerSteering.html
There is some good info. on these pages. I haven't checked the amp draw
yet, but with a 75A relay and 80A breaker, the breaker hasn't tripped
yet. It's a Bosch relay, and bussman breaker. I bought extra of each
and will be selling them on EV Source if anyone needs one and doesn't
want to meet the minimum order (like $35) that Waytek wire has. It's
pretty easy to spend money at Waytek wire though...lots of good stuff.
-Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Bohm [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Power steering...wahoo!!
Hi everyone, and hapy new year!
John, that forklift sounds awesome! I can't wait to see pictures of the
finished product.
I just took my first run in the 200sx with power steering. It was
great. I have been frustrated by the PS for awhile, wishing the 200sx
never had had it. I probably would have driven it for awhile without,
but the state inspection requires the PS to be working if the vehicle
originally had it.
I took the advice of several list members to use the Toyota MR2 pump.
After having a new fitting put on the existing power steering hose,
things went together very nicely.
When I first turned the pump on, I thought there was a problem with my
wiring - I couldn't hear it over my blower and vacuum pump. I put my
hand on the power steering pump to see if I could feel it running. I
couldn't. Hmm...I turned off my motor blower, and then I could hear a
whine. When I started turning the steering wheel, it made a more
noticeable whine, but certainly no worse than the original power
steering pump. I was very impressed. Altogether, the 200sx is quieter
than it was with an ICE. Much quieter with the vacuum pump off. I need
some better rubber mounts to take out some of the vibration noises.
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would only have to do a few thousand a month at most it could be very slow
50 an hour at most and it doesn't have to be on while work is done. This is
a low volume affair but cutting thousands of pieces is still time consuming
on a monthly basis. If you know of a low volume unit fine but it looks like
I'm making my own if it costs 10k. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
Laughter aside
Lawerence..
T&B makes production cut and prep machines that do this.
Thomas and Betts.
Heart Interface had one in the 90s when I was contracting with Damon
Crockett. This is WAY last Decade type stuff.
But...
You asked, you now have data crumbs to follow.
They were in the 10K$ range, and made 1000s of custom precision cut and
stripped wire a pieces a hour. This is real heavy production wire harness
equipment.
I find a bored EE from the Navy, works very well...
how many pieces???
and what would you be willing to pay??? in cent each or Bucks per
hundreds.
The new year is here...
I am off to digikey and Mouser land to spend my money for the month....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Is there such a machine that will cut 22 gauge wire to different
> specified length from 3 to 6 inches? It doesn't have to be precision
> maybe with in .050 inch. Thanks in advance for any info. Lawrence
> Rhodes..........
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
A teenager?
Sorry couldn't resist.
I don't know of any machine you could buy easily, but you could rig
something up with some wheels and a solenoid:
Wheel connected to trip a microswitch at set intervals of rotation,
firing a solenoid with a cutter attached.
Add a rotary encoder and an MCU to make it significantly more fancy.
Just trying to help, that's what I'd do if I had to make over 1,000
pieces.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just so you all don't get too discouraged:
I didn't do any experiments or torturing of my TS cells, but just started
using them. I used them a little in Fall of 2003 when I was getting my
pickup modified to Li ion and mostly from April to November 2004 in daily
use. The pickup and those TS cells are now outside under a layer of
freezing rain and snow, off-duty for the winter, so I won't go out and
retreive the logbook just now. But I must have put about 200 cycles (most
were about 30 % DOD going to work and back home) on my mixed pack of 26 each
of 200 and 100 Amp-Hr. cells. They are "vintages" from Spring 2003 (14 100
A-Hr. cells from Victor's group buy), July 2003 and September 2003, all
working together. In spite of the different manufacturing dates and no BMS
on about half of the pack much of the time, the cells stay quite well in
balance. I was charging at about 17A cc/cv until the original charger
failed in June. Then I replaced the charger with one home-made from 2 Traco
9A 55V switching power supplies in series, a big Schottky diode and 2 48V
fans. So I am charging at a low current for the pack size, and not pulsing.
I can't see any drop in performance thus far. The longest, most draining,
trip was in October near the end of my usage for 2004. I find that these
cells are convenient to use due to their packaging and size, terminals,
Amp-Hr capacity varieties, weight and capability of being strapped together
on request to TS as golf-cart-battery sized modules. They have behaved
consistantly, predictably and reliably, so I have confidence in them. (If
they die too early it would be distressing, not only because of all the
money I spent on them, but also because I have become addicted to, or
dependant on, their benefits. But it doesn't look like short life is a
problem up to now.)
I like them enough that I ordered and received another 28 100 Amp-Hr. cells
in November 2004. These latest 100 A-Hr. cells came with the larger
terminal bolt size like the 200 A-Hr. cells - a nice improvement. These are
for the hatchback that will be put back on the road after re-fitting, when
the salt is gone in the Spring. This is an "experimental" hybrid pack
(aren't they all?) with larger AGM batteries (8 of DCS-75BT) and a "too
small" TS pack. This will validate for me this method of a lighter weight,
lower cost battery pack used for typical commuter, shopping, and visiting
applications. In other words: go somewhere, pause a while, come back. (The
TS pause that refreshes the AGMs.) If it works out as well as expected, it
will provide at least the same range and much better performance than the
50% heavier pack of flooded GC batteries the car had before.
Can anyone else using Thunder Sky batteries in their EV for the past year or
so comment on their results?
Best Regards,
Doug
As Bruce would say,
zzz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: TS LiIon musings and test cycle
As Phillipe suggested, I have been gathering equipment for some time to be
able to run various tests on TS LiIon batteries. I have 94 90AH cells, and
have put some tests (one by Lee Hart, many by Chris Brune, and some by me)
on my website at ev.whitecape.org. I have not put any cells into my car,
and won't until I have both the proper BMS and, more importantly,
understand how to take care of them!
More recently, I ran a 18A/4.25V charge CC/CV charge cycle, 25A CC
discharge cycle, and CC/CV recharge on 92 of the cells. Every 10 minutes
during the discharge cycle, I (still manually) paused the discharge for a
minute to attempt to measure the internal resistance at various SOC.
Since I have 94 cells, and only plan to use 64 near term (now that I must
use a hybrid pack), I have an ample supply for testing. While these cells
(it turns out) were a bit old when I got them in 2003, they all had a good
charge on them. In addition, I have been measuring their voltages every
month and bring up the ones below 3.5V with a 3-12A/4.0V CC/CV charge.
Here is the problem/mystery for your consideration. While the average
capacity of the cells at this discharge rate is now about 60.88 AH, four
cells (89-92) that have through more charge/discharge cycles from various
tests are down to 40.88, 27.67, 27.31, and 27.98 AH, respectively (see
LiIonCellSummary.xls on the website). In addition, I used lower draws even
to get this AH rating for these four cells. The question is: what did I do
to adversely impact these cells during testing?
Only a few were subjected to higher currents. Once we saw the quick
temperature rise, however, I now restrict the current to 25A. In a
discharge cycle, I still have no cooling, other than the winter
temperatures in my garage of 9 degrees C. The temperature measured between
the cases of two cells in a typical discharge test started at 9 degrees C
and finished at 40 degrees C by the end of the test, some less than 3
hours later (don't forget the 1 minute pauses every 10 minutes).
The temperature fell off fairly quickly once the discharge cycle was
completed.
Right now I'm thinking that I might want to go to the (undocumented) pulse
charging algorithm. Also, I am thinking about putting the cells in a box
with a blower and temperature control circuit to vary the speed to
maintain the (external) temperature in the 20-30 degree C range.
So, any thoughts on the why I'm losing capacity or test cycle details
would be appreciated. I would like to conduct a meaningful life cycle
test, so specifying all the parameters would be useful. I may start with a
new cell, but for now I would like to get the testing process set up with
one of my somewhat old, but otherwise unused cells.
Gary
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> less active material means less Li ion intercallation or holding. Li
> -ion doesn't change it's active materials chemical composition like lead
> acid batteries do. Therfore it has higher cycle life.
> until you overcharge,overheat,store at elevated temperature, or
spring > a leak
--- End Message ---
