EV Digest 4000
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Power steering stuff - MR2 pump
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC musings
by Jim Walls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT - FYI: Free online image hosting links
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Why don't NiCd manufacturers make an AGM?
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: High current li-ions from Sony
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Thunder Sky, Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: About to purchase batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: wire cutting machine
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: I need Nicad batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thunder Sky, Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V
size
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Interesting quote from the past
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Electric Auto Association Funds CalCars' PRIUS+ Plug-in Hybrid
by Felix Kramer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thunder Sky, Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) TS Cell Balancing via Shared Transformers
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: TS Cell Balancing via Shared Transformers
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Why don't NiCd manufacturers make an AGM?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Planatery gear set
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Why don't NiCd manufacturers make an AGM?
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Planatery gear set
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: TS Cell Balancing via Shared Transformers
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Thoughts on use of TS cells
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: DIY Controller? (DIY Motor)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Why don't NiCd manufacturers make an AGM?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Jeep EV (Battery LED, Raptor controller questions)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: High current li-ions from Sony
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Power steering stuff - MR2 pump
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve and all -
is it hooked straight to 12v or did you have to use some kind of computer
controlled boxes ,
steve clunn
The 10 gauge pump wire positive hooks to a 75A relay which hooks to a
80A auto-resetting breaker which hooks to the 12V battery positive. I
might rig up a more elaborate setup in the future to conserve battery
juice, but for now it works great. I really love it! In fact, I'm
going out for a drive right now.
One question for the list - how long does an Orbital have to be trickle
charged after the bulk charge to be "full" (I know that term is
subjective), or at least mostly full?
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger wrote:
> >> As of this past August, the word from Dr. John Olson of
> >> Optima fame is that 4A is the maximum recombination current
> >> an Optima will support without thermal runaway, and that 2A
> >> for 1hr will result in a loss of less than 1g of H2O even
> >> if all of the energy goes into electrolysis.
>
> This statement has been bothering me and now I know why. If you
> equalize every cycle you will loose a pound of water every 454
> cycles.
No, actually you won't... two details:
- it says *less than* 1g of H2O
- it says even this would only happen if *all* of the energy goes into
electrolysis
A 1lb loss every 454 cycles can be considered an absolute worst-case
upper bound, not what would be expected.
Don't get me wrong, however; I am not necessarily advocating for the 2A
for 1hr finish regimen as being appropriate or optimal for YTs that are
cycled to less than 100%DOD.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I live in Fresno california, the radio stations around here count the
number of days over 100 in the summer(and the number of days till we
go without sunin the winter, fog central,in te winter)
AirC is a must. One of the things I plan is to have the Air started by
the remote control for the alarm, before I get to the vehicle, my
friends and coworkers will just "die" with envy.
No fair stealing my ideas! ;-) Here in Orlando, FL, I was planning on
running the Air off a timer, while the charger was still plugged in.
All my friends will leave work to sweltering cars and untouchable
steering wheels; I'll have a nice cool cabin. I've picked up a
treadmill motor from sciplus.com to turn the compressor. Unfortunately,
I haven't upgraded to 134a; I intend to use the original '88 Honda
hardware.
Been doing it for the past year or so on my truck (ICE powered). When I
installed an alarm system, I got one that has a long range remote and
remote start capability. As long as I remember to leave the
enviromental controls in the correct way (heat or cooling), I start the
engine a few minutes before I head for the truck and it's cooled down or
warmed up. It should have me nice and warm when I get out to the truck
tomorrow morning.
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone on this list has interesting pictures of your EV
or related equipment with no place online to host the
images, here are some links:
http://www.imageshack.us/
http://www.free-image-host.org/
http://www.uploadimages.net/
http://www.uploadthis.com/
http://www.photobucket.com/
http://www.fotki.com/
http://www.imagestation.com/
Now lets see all the interesting stuff you've been wanting
to show everyone...
Regards
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm listening to the benefits of NiCd batteries, but I really don't feel
like using flooded batteries. Even with a watering system, it still
just seems like a pain.
So I wonder, why aren't the NiCd manufacturers taking advantages of the
advances in the PbSO4 field? Surely a spiral-wound, AGM battery would
give out amps like no tomorrow. That could do a lot for the dragsters
at the far end of the track.
Man, I'm wishing it were easier to make my own d*mn batteries...
Judebert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe and all,
The max allowed voltage on charge is different for manganeze
and cobalt versions. So they co-exist if you use common
denominator, but you'd underutilize cobalt ones which
allow up to 4.5V per cell.
Victor
Philippe Borges wrote:
3.6 or 3.7v nominal and corresponding 4.1 or 4.2V end of charge is
determined by cathode material:
oxyde manganeze lithium or oxyde cobalt lithium.
So there is no "average" voltage, two li-ion cell type coexist.
Sony use first one because manganeze cathode is easier to securise for
public market than second one, more powerfull and so instable.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: High current li-ions from Sony
Looking at the specs, these Li-Ion cells should put out
something
around 1400 W/kg. This is quite a bit better than any available AGM. It
would be a little less than a HP per pound. Not too shabby. The energy
density looks to be close to 100 Whr/kg. This would be about 3 times the
range of a lead-acid pack of the same weight.
Their low current version is twice the Whr/kg, but with the VT's, the
question
is what are they using for nominal voltage, since voltage range
(2.5V-4.1V) is
lower than (3.0V-4.2V) of an "average" li-ion? I guess we'll find out when
these get on the market somewhere! Next question is where and how much...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, John *loves* TS LiIons:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/li-ion_plasma-1a.jpg
Even though I had this picture on display under my pickup hood at MUTA in
St-Jerome in September, the answer only just dawned on me seeing it again
now. Now I realise why you folks had less than expected results with the 90
Amp-Hr. cells! <G> My 100 Amp-Hr cells escaped the Wayland treatment
because they are a different height and it would not have been comfortable
to have those few cells under him making the bed more "lumpy"!
Seriously now, Victor, how are your replacement 90 A-Hr. cells compared to
the original batch?
Do you know of any TS users with a few hundred cycles on the batteries that
can comment on how they are holding up?
Thanks again for easing my first purchase of Thunder Sky back in March,
2003.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:51 PM
Snip
Isn't it fun screwing up things? :-)
Ask Wayland - he "blows things up so you don't have to"...
BTW, John *loves* TS LiIons:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/li-ion_plasma-1a.jpg
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Gels would be just as fine for your application (electrically)
as AGMs. Of course I can't comment on price/availability for you.
Very rarely you will see more than 150A if at least 26 batteries
are in place. Only at hard accelerations and uphills at speed.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
After a number of months of investigation, I am about to purchase batteries.
However, I still am unsure of which battery to purchase. Here are my vehicle
specs:
- New Beetle (est. curb weight 3700 lbs)
- Siemens AC system
- 312-332 Volts
- 26-28 batteries
- Approx 1000 lbs available for batteries
- Estimate no more that 200 Amp current draw
After a **lot** of analysis, I have boiled it down to two batteries:
Hawker Genesis G42EP
* VRLA AGM
* 42 Amp Hour
* 33 lbs each, 925 lbs for the pack
* $3700 for the pack
* AGM is more sensitive to charging, requires BMS
* AGM delivers power - no problem
* 500 lifecycles
* AGM is common use by many EVers, and is recommended
Deka Dominator 8G34
* VRLA Gel
* 60 Amp Hours
* 42 lbs each, 1190 lbs for the pack (somewhat heavy)
* $3000 for the pack
* Gel is more tolerant to pack imbalances, but still benefits with a BMS
* These have been used in many vehicles by Solectria with lots of success
* Gel cannot deliver much more that 200-250 Amps - but still OK for high
voltage AC
* 500-900 lifecycles
* Gel is not preferred by many EVers on the list
I really prefer the Gels - in theory. They should provided enough power,
last longer, be less affected by balancing issues, thus being much more cost
effective. But I am concerned that I will simply be buying a battery based
on spec - not reality. I have asked a number of Solectria users about
their Deka Gel batteries and have received all positive feedback.
Thoughts? Comments?
thanks
Don
P.S. I have not listed the Optimas or the Orbitals because they just are
too heavy/bulky and just won't fit into the vehicle
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not coil it and whak with axe in the middle - you'll
get many pieces at once....
Victor
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Can't comment on why but I need a lot of little wires. Using solid
brass 22gauge. Not coated. No stripping. Simplist machine possible &
yes I found a 6rpm geared down cap start unit. I just need a cutter and
someway to actuate it. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message ----- From: "James Massey"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: wire cutting machine
At 08:58 AM 2/01/05 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is there such a machine that will cut 22 gauge wire to different
specified length from 3 to 6 inches? It doesn't have to be precision
maybe with in .050 inch. Thanks in advance for any info. Lawrence
Rhodes..........
Hi Lawrence
What a leading question....it would seem that you are after a *lot* of
short pieces of wire.
There are machines, and they are generally expensive. But most of the
good ones also strip the wire ends and crimp ferrules on as well. If
you contact a switchboard manufacturer they should be able to supply
you with cut wire lengths at a reasonable price, or direct you to the
company that they sub-out wire-up work to.
However, if you are a cheapskate like most of us tend to be, since 22
gauge is not that thick, and I assume PVC insulation (?) which is not
that strong, how about using a papercutting guillotine with a stop
clamped to it?
Why do you need so many 3 to 6 inch wires, anyway?
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
Whether it will "cut it" depends on the controller.
In my case very peppy EV does not draw more then 100A
for 99% of the time. In fact, inverter is limited
to 280A but this is 100kW of power. More than enough
for
any normal EV.
Yes, but what is the required pack voltage for your
motor/inverter combination? 288+V of SAFT STM100 NiCds is
quite a bit of weight, more batteries than I could
realistically fit into a car with a GVWR of about 2,200
pounds, of which I wouldn't want weighing more than 2,600.
AH, the weight limit. I see.
...
As to those Li Ions and Ultracaps you have, that's a bit out
of price range for this particular project. Maybe it might
work for a university-funded project where there'd be about
$50k to work with, or perhaps if I saved up a bunch of money
over the period of a few years.
Sorry, I wasn't suggesting you to use LiIons, I was saying that
having many small(ish) cells instead of 12V batteries is not
as bad as may seem.
BTW, my LiIon pack AND ultracaps pack cost me ~$17k all together.
I would not spend $50k on it either.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Hartley wrote:
...
Seriously now, Victor, how are your replacement 90 A-Hr. cells compared
to the original batch?
They are stiffer, but direct comparison is near impossible
since I have ultracaps now and didn't have back then when
installed original cells.
I do have couple of spare ones though, so can give them to
Gary to compare using his (semi)automated test rig.
One of my new cells died, perhaps due to hidden manufacturer's
defect. It happen on discharge during modest driving - the cell
started hissing, got really hot and liquid filled up the
cavity above the vent cap. These are symptoms of the internal short.
Do you know of any TS users with a few hundred cycles on the batteries
that can comment on how they are holding up?
Only Chinese buses, but they just replace failing ones when
they fail, so some have short life, some long, or so I was told.
Cannot attach a number to that.
If someone from original purchase installed them soon and
drives/charges every day, he may have near 300 cycles by now.
The life time is not exhausted, but the trend may be well
recognizable for predictions. I doubt though anyone I know
has so many cycles and keeps good records of Ah usage and
capacity degradation.
Thanks again for easing my first purchase of Thunder Sky back in March,
2003.
No problem, enjoy your purchase.
Best Regards,
Doug
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Jan 2005 at 19:43, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> "Eliot M. Estes, president of GM, has been widely quoted as
> saying that electric cars will be available by 1985.
Yeah, I remember this quite clearly. GM said I'd be able to buy an electric
Chevette by 1985. It didn't quite turn out that way.
Leaving aside the question of why I'd want a Chevette with *any* drive
system <G>, I'd have to say that plummeting petroleum prices probably had
something to do with the change in plans.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats
tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read.
-- Karl Kraus
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This announcement came late last month, and in the year-end rush, the news
didn't get posted to many of the EV groups, so I'm forwarding it.
(For the latest update on the project itself, see our new Fact Sheet at
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/message/268 .)
At 10:03 AM 12/20/2004, Kim Rogers (EAA's Education Program Manager) wrote:
Great news!! The Electric Auto Association (EAA) has voted to support the
California Cars Initiative (CalCars), contributing funds and urging its
members to join the effort to make "plug-in hybrid electric vehicles"
(PHEVs) available to drivers worldwide.
-- Kim
Here's the text of the announcement (also available at http://www.eaaev.org/
December 15, 2004
EAA Funds CalCars' PRIUS+ Plug-In Hybrid Project
The Electric Auto Association has voted to support the California Cars
Initiative (CalCars), contributing funds and urging its members to join the
effort to make "plug-in hybrid electric vehicles" (PHEVs) available to
drivers worldwide.
The EAA declared its financial support in the form of a multi-phase
research and development grant to CalCars' unique PRIUS+ project. "Our
first installment represents a substantial and unprecedented expenditure
for our group," said EAA Treasurer Gabrielle Adelman. CalCars' PRIUS+
project converts '04-05 Priuses into PHEVs, doubling the Prius' 50 mpg
performance. "The goal is to demonstrate the technology and encourage
automakers to build PHEVs. The first PRIUS+ prototype is now being tested
in the San Francisco Bay Area," said Felix Kramer, CalCars Founder.
Ron Freund, EAA Chairman, explained why the EAA departed from its usual
focus on electric-only vehicles (EVs). "PHEVs are inspired. They're a
cost-effective way to combine existing technologies bringing the benefits
of battery electric technology to market. Adding bigger batteries to
conventional hybrid cars gives drivers the opportunity to do most of their
everyday driving electrically - with zero pollution. Drivers benefit from
the option to recharge every night and start every day 'topped off'. And if
it's not convenient to plug in, the hybrid's gasoline engine can take
charge and act like a conventional hybrid - propelling the car and
recharging the batteries. Finally, mass production of PHEVs will reduce the
cost of batteries and other EV components, paving the way to bring pure EVs
back into the marketplace," said Freund.
"EAA members have been key participants in meetings, online discussions and
garage-level engineering, design, and construction of the first PRIUS+
prototype. At EAA EVents all over North America, we always get queries from
the public asking about when and how they can purchase an EV or PHEV. So we
wanted to step forward to publicly and financially support this excellent
project. Others, who are in a position to do so, should look into this
project and consider a tax-deductible personal contribution to help speed
progress", said Kim Rogers, EAA Education Program Manager.
Details of the project can be found at www.priusplus.org, which includes
pointers to the "open source"-style online group where the latest technical
developments are discussed. Currently, DaimlerChrysler's Sprinter
commercial van is the only PHEV under development by a major automaker, but
a number of PHEVs have been built at universities and by small companies.
About the EAA
Founded in 1967, the EAA is a non-profit organization of volunteers
dedicated to the promotion of electric-drive technology and to the support
of owners of electric vehicles. Its worldwide membership is a source of
knowledge and expertise about electric-drive technology. The EAA seeks to
educate the public about the progress and benefits of electric-drive
technology by organizing and participating in forums, meetings, and public
events. The EAA also offers technical information and support to people who
wish to convert gasoline-powered vehicles to electric power. In recent
years, the EAA has established funds to maintain public EV charger
stations. More information about the EAA is available at www.eaaev.org.
About CalCars
Founded in 2002, CalCars is a non-profit advocacy/technology development
group. CalCars is comprised of volunteer entrepreneurs, environmentalists,
engineers and others working together to spur adoption of efficient,
non-polluting automotive technologies. CalCars promotes PHEVs for energy
independence and reduced greenhouse gases. More information about CalCars
is available at www.calcars.org
Contact Info:
Ron Freund, EAA Chairman, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CalCars/PRIUS+ www.calcars.org, www.priusplus.org
Felix Kramer, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founder California Cars Initiative
http://www.calcars.org
Moderator PRIUS+ PHEV Conversion Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus/
PO Box 61222 Palo Alto, CA 94306
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, thanks for the info.
One of my new cells died, perhaps due to hidden manufacturer's
defect
I suppose that was an "infant mortality" type failure, and once past a
certain number of cycles it is less likely to occur. (said Doug,
hopefully.)
This is the sort of problem that worries me about a battery with many cells
paralleled and in series in a closed space. It may be unlikely for one cell
to go bad, but a lot more chance of having a failure with a lot of cells.
Even if that failure doesn't immediately harm the other cells in parallel,
cause a fire, etc., there are now one less cells in that parallel group to
carry the load, so the capacity of the entire pack is less and the remaining
cells have to work harder.
Only Chinese buses, but they just replace failing ones when
they fail, so some have short life, some long, or so I was told.
This goes against their recommendations of not mixing new cells with old.
I would expect this practice to cause some problems, particularly if they
are not using cell management electronics. But maybe they have no other
practical choice....
Speaking of cell management electronics, is there any possibility that the
SCM-200 will be available to fit the 100 Amp.-Hr. cells terminals bolt
spacing (I think it is wider) and also the newer production with the larger
diameter bolts?
Thanks,
Best Regards,
Doug
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone looked at TS cell balancing via shared transformers (see Figures
7 and 8 at http://www.formulasun.org/asc/tech/SAE_2001-01-0959.pdf)? The
document claims that the balancing would occur quickly, and the control
logic doesn't seem to be complex. Balancing would also appear to occur
during charging and discharging.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't thought of trying transformers but had thought of using one or
many, DC to DC converters, like Lee's system. Figure 6 is as complicated as
a full battery balancer, so you might as well use a good DC-DC converter
with the output set to the correct voltage and get significant current
handling. Figure 7 requires a custom transformer with lots of windings,
probably not cheap and not all windings will end up perfectly equal in
output.
Just my initial reaction....
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 12:29 AM
Subject: TS Cell Balancing via Shared Transformers
Has anyone looked at TS cell balancing via shared transformers (see
Figures
7 and 8 at http://www.formulasun.org/asc/tech/SAE_2001-01-0959.pdf)? The
document claims that the balancing would occur quickly, and the control
logic doesn't seem to be complex. Balancing would also appear to occur
during charging and discharging.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They do! They are little C and D sized nicads used in model
airplanes, battlebots, and portable tools. Check out
http://www.sanyo.com.
Some versions of the twike used little nicads.
Sanyo lists cells as big as 10 Ah.
They put out alot more current per kg than flooded Nicads, but don't
last as long.
--- Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm listening to the benefits of NiCd batteries, but I really don't
> feel
> like using flooded batteries. Even with a watering system, it
> still
> just seems like a pain.
>
> So I wonder, why aren't the NiCd manufacturers taking advantages of
> the
> advances in the PbSO4 field? Surely a spiral-wound, AGM battery
> would
> give out amps like no tomorrow. That could do a lot for the
> dragsters
> at the far end of the track.
>
> Man, I'm wishing it were easier to make my own d*mn batteries...
>
> Judebert
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Planatery gear sets are strong and have balanced forces, but...a typical
angle gut involute gear is 2%-4% energy loss/mesh and there are 6 meshes
for a 3 gear unit.
It is one of the reasons automatics transmissions are so wastefull.
Straight cut gears are 1% but the noise is considered objectionable. If
you bury them in an automatic and use soundproofing it is OK because
there is little heat generation, but if you don't use stright gears then
you can't use sound proofing because the tranny case is your heatsink,
then there is water cooling :-(
I would be interested in knowing how much energy is wasted in these units.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony writes:
>
> I'm listening to the benefits of NiCd batteries, but I really don't feel
> like using flooded batteries. Even with a watering system, it still
> just seems like a pain.
The SAFT STM5-100s need to be watered about every three months, and it
takes about 20 minutes. If the system is setup correctly, you just put
water into one end of the watering circuit and keep filling until water
runs out the other end. Repeat for each circuit in the pack (up to 10
modules per circuit).
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Straight cut gears are 1% but the noise is
> considered objectionable.
what about plastic gears? Are they also noisy and
what are the losses in say a 40 to 1 reduction....
any mech engineers??
Kevs
If
> you bury them in an automatic and use soundproofing
> it is OK because
> there is little heat generation, but if you don't
> use stright gears then
> you can't use sound proofing because the tranny case
> is your heatsink,
> then there is water cooling :-(
>
> I would be interested in knowing how much energy is
> wasted in these units.
>
>
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On Tue, 2004-12-28 at 13:08, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Lets keep in mind that the AVDC motors 6.7,8 and 9 inchers have a series
> paralel setup as stock. Each north and south pair are in paralel with each
> other.
> So.. Stock is 1/2 field weakened already.
> So... look again closely into your AvDC and tell me what you see.....
> from each stud to the next, is only two coil sets, one CW and the other CCW.
> So.. Da Juice flows both ways.
Can we simplify this for people who are not very familiar with
Advanced DC, or even motors in general...
Does this mean that with a contactor or two, I could wire
a single 9" ADC for series/parallel switching with a Zilla?
aaron
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Okay, I found a thread about this on the EV_BMS Yahoo group, starting around
message number 866.
Bill Dennis
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It seems you would want each li-ion cell as large as possible to minimize the
imbalances of paralleling. I think a perfect use for the cells at
http://www.everspring.net/product-battery-LP5453B.htm would be a 72V pack in a
Karmen Ghia with a sepex motor fed by a Curtis 35-80V/600A SepEx controller.
You'd never get the cells near their 1000A peak rating but still have 42kw peak
and some of the benefits of an AC drive (regen, simple reverse, programmable
parameters). A 660#/36kwh pack certainly wouldn't overstress the suspension,
and 20 cells shouldn't be too hard to stow (say, 10 where the tank sits, 5 to
each side of the motor bay?), the only hitch being the usual questions of
lifespan, BMS technique, and a $15K pricetag *before* shipping costs.
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> What kind of motor would you use? I'm assuming when you say
> "inverter" you mean a 3 phase AC motor controller. I had a
> schematic at about 80% and a layout at around 40%, then lost
> steam because I didn't see a ready source of motors that could
> be bought. Victor's metricmind website has siemens water cooled
> AC motors, but apparently you need to buy the motors with a
> controller - you can't just buy a motor. If you go with an
> industrial air cooled motor, they start to get really gigantic.
Since you only need one, you can often find EV-grade and inverter-grade
motors being sold as surplus.
It's true that AC motors are not "plug and play" like brushed DC motors
-- the inverter has to be set up to match the actual motor used. But if
you're building your own inverter, this isn't a big problem (at least no
worse than all the other problems in building your own inverter). It's
not hard to measure the important parameters of a surplus motor to find
out what you have.
Commercial 60hz 3-phase motors are 90% of what you need for an EV motor,
and are easy to find and quite affordable. You'll lose a little in
efficiency and upper rpm, but it's not serious.
Don't be fooled by the the stock ratings of a standard off-the-shelf AC
motor -- that's only what it can do on ordinary 60hz power. On an
inverter, its ratings are considerably better. First, the nameplate
gives continuous-duty ratings; you can double the HP for EV use since
you won't run at this power level for even 1 hour. Second, the inverter
can double the frequency; this doubles the HP again. Third, you can
improve the cooling with an external blower, to double it yet again.
That means you can get 8 times the nameplate HP out of a motor for EV
use. That's why a "100 HP" AC EV motor is the size of a 12 HP
conventional AC motor.
The EV-grade AC motors produced for the auto companies are at least 10x
the price of normal AC motors because they are hand-made, low
production, and have lots of "fiddly" little improvements that are nice
if cost is no object, but not strictly necessary. You could "blueprint"
a stock AC motor and make these changes yourself (or just the ones you
felt were justified). Here is a typical list:
- change to liquid cooling
Drill holes, add cooling lines, hoses, fittings, etc.
Auto companies do this "because we always liquid-cooled
our motors". Or, just add an external blower and keep it
air cooled.
- precision balanced rotor, better bearings
Inverter-grade motors can run to 13,000 rpm and above.
Stock motors are only made "good enough" for 3600 rpm.
Balancing and bearings for 8000 rpm is pretty easy.
- better insulation
Inverters don't deliver nice clean sinewaves; they produce
spiky waveforms with larger peak voltages. The auto
environment is also likely to be dirty and wet. So, they
add insulation to prevent voltage breakdowns. You can epoxy
or re-varnish the windings and add insulation. Or, have the
motor rewound with extra insulation.
- higher temperature materials
An EV motor is likely to be overloaded more (hill climbing,
drag racing), so they use the highest-class insulation and
materials. But normal motors are usually class 180 (class H)
anyway. If yours is not, rewind it with class 180 materials.
- rewound to suit the actual application
Motors can be wound for any voltage. The auto company motors
are custom-wound for whatever weird voltage worked out best.
("You want it wound for 163v? Ok, but it will cost extra!")
But you can also just reconnect the coils that are already
there for different voltages, and then pick your pack voltage
to match.
- lower-resistance rotor
EV-grade motors use the lowest rotor resistance possible,
to maximize efficiency. Normal induction motors deliberately
have extra rotor resistance, so they can start at 60hz and
full voltage (but lose efficiency in the bargain). But
rotors are easy to change. You can get low-resistance rotors
or modify an existing rotor to be lower resistance. Or, just
accept a few percent efficiency hit and use a standard rotor.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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In fact, they need to be watered every 1000Ah over-charged (Ah in
equalization phase)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Why don't NiCd manufacturers make an AGM?
> Jude Anthony writes:
> >
> > I'm listening to the benefits of NiCd batteries, but I really don't feel
> > like using flooded batteries. Even with a watering system, it still
> > just seems like a pain.
>
> The SAFT STM5-100s need to be watered about every three months, and it
> takes about 20 minutes. If the system is setup correctly, you just put
> water into one end of the watering circuit and keep filling until water
> runs out the other end. Repeat for each circuit in the pack (up to 10
> modules per circuit).
>
> Ralph
>
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Otmar the yellow LED is %100 PWM. On a Raptor or T-Rex.
That's why it's so hard to get it. All the current limits prevent it from
lighting.
That would be thermal, Over current, or any pedal position less than
floored.
It still sound like his system is in some kind of currrent limit, Way too
soo and way too often.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Jeep EV (Battery LED, Raptor controller questions)
> At 3:09 PM -0600 1-3-05, Nick Viera wrote:
> >I finally made a battery bridge LED circuit for my Jeep (Thanks for the
> >schematic, Lee!). I actually have two bridges so each red LED covers 5
> >of my 20 batteries.
>
> Hi Nick,
> Good job! That looks great to me.
> Have you tested it? It doesn't work well if the LED's are in
> backwards. I just made one and got the red in backwards, it still
> worked but the threshold was very high.
>
> I would try disconnecting one of the end fuses. The Red LED should light.
> Next put 3V of a small battery in series with one of the end
> connections. Again a red LED should light.
> Flip the polarity of the 3V battery and the other one should light.
>
> If it does that, then it should work when you need it.
>
> >After more test drives, with my digital voltmeter on the battery side
> >and an analog meter on the motor side of the Raptor 600, I never see
> >anywhere near the pack voltage to the motor during WOT. I'm seeing
> >110-112 volts at the motor and 135-140 volts at the batteries during
> >WOT. This doesn't seem right to me...
>
> At WOT the meter should work fine and there should be no switching going
on.
> Have you tried connecting both of them to one input to see if they
> read the same? That might be a good test. Many of the EV analog
> meters are highly inaccurate.
>
> If it really is doing what the meters say, then it is not getting to
> WOT even though it claims to be.
>
> >Also, If I set the Raptor's current limit pot lower (say to half),
> >should the behavior of the yellow WOT LED change at all? Also, I'm now
> >noticing that even with the pot turned all the way up (max current), I
> >can't pull more than 300 battery amps when I floor it in 1st gear
> >(whereas I used to be able to peg at 400 amps in 1st). I wonder if this
> >potentiometer could be bad?
>
> I'm not very familiar with the Raptor. Do you know if the WOT light
> just indicates full pedal position, or actually indicates a 100$ duty
> cycle on the output?
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov"
> The max allowed voltage on charge is different for manganeze and cobalt
versions
Yes this is what i mean with my poor english :^) both exist on li-ion cells
world and have their specific charge requirement.
I don't invent this, i have Saft and Sony data for their li-ion cells (low
ah though), it indicate: 7% capacity loss each 100mv difference under
advised end of charge voltage and bad cycle life result at upper voltage
though little more capacity.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: High current li-ions from Sony
> Philippe and all,
>
> The max allowed voltage on charge is different for manganeze
> and cobalt versions. So they co-exist if you use common
> denominator, but you'd underutilize cobalt ones which
> allow up to 4.5V per cell.
>
> Victor
>
> Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > 3.6 or 3.7v nominal and corresponding 4.1 or 4.2V end of charge is
> > determined by cathode material:
> > oxyde manganeze lithium or oxyde cobalt lithium.
> >
> > So there is no "average" voltage, two li-ion cell type coexist.
> > Sony use first one because manganeze cathode is easier to securise for
> > public market than second one, more powerfull and so instable.
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 3:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: High current li-ions from Sony
> >
> >
> >
> >>> Looking at the specs, these Li-Ion cells should put out
> >
> > something
> >
> >>>around 1400 W/kg. This is quite a bit better than any available AGM. It
> >>>would be a little less than a HP per pound. Not too shabby. The energy
> >>>density looks to be close to 100 Whr/kg. This would be about 3 times
the
> >>>range of a lead-acid pack of the same weight.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Their low current version is twice the Whr/kg, but with the VT's, the
> >
> > question
> >
> >>is what are they using for nominal voltage, since voltage range
> >
> > (2.5V-4.1V) is
> >
> >>lower than (3.0V-4.2V) of an "average" li-ion? I guess we'll find out
when
> >>these get on the market somewhere! Next question is where and how
much...
> >>
>
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Until it's drawing less than 2 amps at 14.6 to 14.8.
If it won't taper down to less than 2 amps, let it go for a couple of hours,
Be paitent...new batteries take some time to get fully final charged.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:41 PM
Subject: Power steering stuff - MR2 pump
> Hi Steve and all -
>
> >is it hooked straight to 12v or did you have to use some kind of
computer
> >controlled boxes ,
> >steve clunn
> >
> The 10 gauge pump wire positive hooks to a 75A relay which hooks to a
> 80A auto-resetting breaker which hooks to the 12V battery positive. I
> might rig up a more elaborate setup in the future to conserve battery
> juice, but for now it works great. I really love it! In fact, I'm
> going out for a drive right now.
>
> One question for the list - how long does an Orbital have to be trickle
> charged after the bulk charge to be "full" (I know that term is
> subjective), or at least mostly full?
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
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