EV Digest 4003
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Refining Hybrid truck ideas
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Planatery gear set
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DIY Controller? (DIY Motor)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by George Tylinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) "Concentrated Battery Additive"
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: "Concentrated Battery Additive"
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE : follow up on valence Li-ion
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Parallel TS: Was: Thoughts on use of TS cells
by Dragan Stancevic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) DIY controller
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) motor mounts
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: follow up on valence Li-ion
by Dragan Stancevic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sundancer whereabouts?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: motor mounts
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) (DIY Motor) - AC Motor - AC5DC - listening?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) New 600-1,000 amp controllers, Was: Controller overvoltage headroom, Re:
TS cell info
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: motor mounts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Parallel TS: Was: Thoughts on use of TS cells
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Sundancer whereabouts?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DIY controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Charging in an apartment
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Orbital SOC - what is full?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Sundancer whereabouts?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Simple First Conversion Query
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: motor mounts
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This is trivially easy to do with OBD-2 cars (95 and newer, generally).
Go here http://www.obd-2.com/ and buy one of his gateway products.
"Gateway" is the term applied to the OBD-2/RS-232 smart cable. The cheap
way out is to select the one for the particular car in question. A better
but more expensive way is to get a tri-mode or tri-mode/CANbus gateway.
Then download his free software and fire it off. In addition to being an
extremely capable diagnostic tool, it is also a datalogger. In addition
to data logging, it has an additional capability that makes the task of
MPG calculation simple. This feature is computed variables whereby one
can write an equation using intrinsic variables to create a computed one.
Almost exactly like a spreadsheet cell. Without firing up my copy of the
program and looking, I believe that an MPG variable is one of his
examples.
His software is fully functional without the cable so you can download it
and play around. He has sample log files on the web site.
Alex Peper probably knows more about OBD-2 than anyone outside the OEMs.
The advantage is that he can work with you on specific problems that the
standard software might not address. He's one of those eggheads who
doesn't speak the same language us commoners do so it sometimes takes a
bit of work to understand what he's saying. Worth the effort, though.
There are two reasons why there aren't OBD-2-based MPG gauges on the
market, I think. The biggie is that most people just don't care enough to
spend the money on the gadget. They pick a vehicle that suits their needs
that sits in the MPG class they care about and then just drive it. That
even large cars get good mileage today means that unless one is a road
warrior, one can generally ignore mileage.
The second reason is the insane state of the legal system these days.
There is a fundamental limitation on how accurate such a gauge can be
because the behavior of the fuel injector is so variable at the low open
intervals involved in idle and low throttle angle driving. With the
injector valve in almost constant motion either opening or closing, the
flow vs open time is ill defined. This behavior is actually modeled
fairly accurately within the PCM for emissions reasons but that info isn't
available on the OBD-2 data stream.
A related problem is the behavior of the fuel with temperature and
altitude. The mass flow through the injector at a given delta-P changes
with the viscosity of the fuel and that changes with temperature. The
mass flow also changes as the delta-P changes with air density. Again,
this behavior is modeled in the PCM but the information is not available
to the outside.
What all this adds up to is a computation that would not agree very well
with the miles-per-tank method of MPG computation. What happens when Joe
Blow consumer first sees the mis-match? Why, he runs to a lawyer, the
government or both.
The combo of low demand and high risk of litigation keeps the things off
the market. Perhaps someday some ChiCom outfit will make 20 million of
the things, channel them into the country through thousands of mostly
untraceable importers and they'll appear on the flea market tool tables
along with the screwdrivers that bend when you look at them.
John
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 12:09:05 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Jeff Shanab wrote:
>> With todays newer fuel injected car can we plug a datalogger into
>> the diagnostic port to capture fuel injector and rpm data? Would
>> that provide us with a good fuel usage numbers. What about using
>
>In theory it should. But, I've seen precious few products that actually
>make fuel consumption data available. If it were easy, I would expect to
>see "miles per gallon computers" on the market that do it.
>--
>"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
>citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
>has!" -- Margaret Mead
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jan 2005 at 11:07, garry wrote:
> a chain with no oil or grease presented no loss and any
> lubrication added a loss with it, this would tend to make a chain drive the
> most efficient, but of course there is the wear factor to take into
> consideration.
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. If there's no friction in a dry
chain (which you seem to suggest by saying "presented no loss"), there's no
wear, nicht wahr? What am I missing here?
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switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
MPG of Ford's most fuel-efficient 2003 car: 36
MPG of Ford's 1912 Model T: 35
-- Harper's Index, Sept. 2003
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--- Begin Message ---
Sure, why not? Any competent motor repair shop will be familiar with all
of these mods except maybe the liquid cooling. EASA (the trade group for
the industry) even offers its members free design services in these areas.
You call them up, tell them the details of the motor (frame size, voltage,
turns per pole, slot size, etc) and what characteristic you want to change
and they'll do the calculations, then tell you what wire to use and how to
wind the thing.
High efficiency inverter grade motors typically already have the low
resistance rotor so typically no change required there.
Remember too that the nominal rating of an industrial motor is just that.
A 10 hp motor with a service factor rating of 1.5 can actually be loaded
to 15 hp continuously with a somewhat shorter life expectancy. The motor
can actually generate much more power if added slip and shorter duty
cycles are tolerable - perfect for EV applications. Rotor heating is
usually the ultimate limitation and that can be greatly extended by the
simple expedient of forced air cooling through the motor.
If I was going to do an AC motor EV conversion, I'd look no further for my
motor than my friendly local industrial motor distributor. I'd chat with
one of their application engineers and maybe with an EASA engineer and go
from there.
John
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 16:00:32 -0800, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Lee, are you joking or seriously suggest someone to try
>to perform these "not strictly nesessary improvements"?
>
>Victor
>
>Lee Hart wrote:
>...
>> The EV-grade AC motors produced for the auto companies are at least 10x
>> the price of normal AC motors because they are hand-made, low
>> production, and have lots of "fiddly" little improvements that are nice
>> if cost is no object, but not strictly necessary. You could "blueprint"
>> a stock AC motor and make these changes yourself (or just the ones you
>> felt were justified). Here is a typical list:
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> ok guys, its finally happened, John has cracked. he's been on
the edge
> for some years now, but I think this is where we draw the
line. :)
YOIKES! But it'll be a real crowd pleaser if he pulls it off. I
think the Heavy Metal Garden Tractor may need to have its name
adjusted after this happens. Power Pop Garden Tractor?
Actually, this is really just a logical progression for
Plasmaboy. It was only a matter of time. OK, the crowd array is
pretty out there... but hey, the world NEEDS one of these!
=====
George Tylinski (Yahoo ID acid_lead)
73 MG Midget / Portland, OR
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Snake oil?
http://www.autobarn.net/chargeit.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4 Jan 2005 at 23:17, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Snake oil?
>
> http://www.autobarn.net/chargeit.html
>
As far as I can tell, this is a reincarnation of good old VX-6. The makers
used to claim it removed sulfation.
I remember reading about the original stuff from about the 1950s or so - it
was actually cadmium based! I don't know what's in it now - I thought I
remembered seeing some kind of reference to a cobalt compound used more
recently, but now I can't find that.
(Lead sulfate is a normal product of the discharge of a battery. Unless you
let it sit for a long time, you can generally remove it by charging the
battery. ;-)
My guess is that this is some kind of chelating additive which tries to glom
onto the crystalline lead sulfate that resists participating in the charging
reaction. Some of the Home Power folks have tried similar tricks using
EDTA, with varying degrees of success. Who knows, maybe that's what this
stuff is.
In any case, I don't think I'd put it in a good battery.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Advertising (n): the science of arresting the human
intelligence for long enough to get money from it.
-- Stephen Leacock
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor caught my attention with only 9K for 96 @ 90ah li-ion cells, But
when I look for prices, I keep coming up with 20K. maybe next conversion :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 08:28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It seems you would want each li-ion cell as large as possible to minimize
> the imbalances of paralleling.
I keep seeing these posts up and down about people warning against paralleling
TS cells, as it seems to me that the larger cells(Amp) are nothing but
parallel cells in a unified enclosure. They seem to manufacture the most
basic round cells and then assemble them to any specification(Amp and Volt).
They have two cylindrical models, one is higher power density than the other,
that's why they have the large "packs" separated by density too. That's at
least how I understood the guy from TS that quoted the cells for my truck.
Is it just me or are people crying wolf withough checking references, has
anyone opened one of those enclosures to verify that?
Thanks.
--
Peace can only come as a natural consequence
of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct me if I am worng but I thought the rpm told us the slip designed
into the motor (class A,B,C,D, etc)
As a side effect, the lower rpm does cause the efficiency calculation to
go south but it reduces starting amps and increases starting torque
which may be more efficient overall in stop and go traffic.
Fans have shallow bar rotors, low slip and a load profile that increases
with square of rpm (class A and B IIRC)
Air compressors have a deep bar rotor so they can start loaded without
pulling to many amps (class C or D IIRC)
I still would like to grab a standard motor 3 phase armature, and press
it into an aluminum cooling sleeve.
Then fit a wound rotor with slip rings into custom end bells and use a
regenerative slip energy recovery circuit
we could have DC-like torque with an AC motor off the line, match the
rotor impedance to the load and speed during acceleration and inject
voltage to lock into sync for cruise at max efficiency
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
Well, the motor/tranny should be going into the 914 in the next couple
of days. However, before it does, one question:
I got a motor mount crossbar from someone on a 914 mailing list, since
my car didn't come with one, but the rubber motor mounts themselves are
in very bad shape. Since I don't have to worry about vibration without
those stinkin' pistons, do I need the rubber replacements, or can I get
away with stacking a few washers?
Also, while I have peoples' attention, any suggestions for waking up
some SLA (not AGM or gel) batteries? They're at rather low SOC, but
won't take more than a couple amps at 14.5-15V (their recommended
charging voltage). Granted, they're out in the cold (~35 F) which I'm
sure doesn't help, but there's gotta be more involved. Shall I just
float them at 13.6 for a while, then try to cycle them? I don't need
them to be *good* batteries, necessarily, just serviceable as a test
pack. Any suggestions?
Thanks
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 22:04, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Victor caught my attention with only 9K for 96 @ 90ah li-ion cells, But
> when I look for prices, I keep coming up with 20K. maybe next conversion
> :-(
Yeah that is a good price. :-) I think if a lot of people got together again
and bought a large quantity we might be able to get such discounts :-)
Either that or Victor sold his soul to the Li-Ion Devil :-)
--
Peace can only come as a natural consequence
of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Road Test" magazine for July 1974 describes one built for McCulloch
Enterprises. It was expanded to 18 golf cart batteries, a 15hp series
motor, and SCR controller. It was also rear wheel drive, with a central
chassis-mounted 2-speed transaxle/differential. It had a fiberglass body
from a Studebaker Avanti.
Could this be the car that sold on E-bay last year? Was in Nevada IIRC. I
think someone on the list purchased it. I believe that it went for a little
over 2.5 K. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need the mounts for compliance. The body will flex , the holes may
not line up. Or they may during install and you may unintentionally
addionally load them just by lowering the car to the ground. And they
may fatiugue fail quickly this way. Or fatiuge fail the bodyshell,
which is even worse.
As for float charging the batteries, look up what you should
temperature compensate the float voltage to, and float them there.
Seth
On Jan 5, 2005, at 1:25 AM, Ben Apollonio wrote:
Hello,
Well, the motor/tranny should be going into the 914 in the next couple
of days. However, before it does, one question:
I got a motor mount crossbar from someone on a 914 mailing list, since
my car didn't come with one, but the rubber motor mounts themselves
are in very bad shape. Since I don't have to worry about vibration
without those stinkin' pistons, do I need the rubber replacements, or
can I get away with stacking a few washers?
Also, while I have peoples' attention, any suggestions for waking up
some SLA (not AGM or gel) batteries? They're at rather low SOC, but
won't take more than a couple amps at 14.5-15V (their recommended
charging voltage). Granted, they're out in the cold (~35 F) which I'm
sure doesn't help, but there's gotta be more involved. Shall I just
float them at 13.6 for a while, then try to cycle them? I don't need
them to be *good* batteries, necessarily, just serviceable as a test
pack. Any suggestions?
Thanks
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and All,
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Baldor Super E inverter rated motor has
> all of the things Lee mentioned about upgrading
> an AC motor for EV use. There are two things that
> are
> not optimized, weight and liquid cooling. I don't
> think there is a big weight penalty for the Baldor
> motor even though it is designed for industrial use
> (maybe 30lbs extra max? probably 10). Cooling can
> be
> easily accomplished with a good blower (like Ametek
> blowers!).
> The super E motors have nice sized bearings, class H
> insulation and are balanced for high RPM. They are
> also built in the USA (not that this makes it
> better,
That depends, while the US, Europe and Japan
usually use good copper, China, Tiawan, ect, many
times use badly recycled copper with high resistance.
A study found that China loses 20% of their
generated electricity to this problem in fridges,
AC's, industral motors, ect.
Ever used a cheap Chinese power tool and noticed
how hot they get? After a few minutes it's too hot to
use!!!
Plus one reason our economy didn't pick up after
the tax incentives besides bad policy, Iraq, was much
of the money went overseas thru Wal-mart, ect, instead
of helping our economy. So buy American whenever
possible. The job you save may be your own.
jerry dycus
> just unusual in todays economy).
> Maybe a Baldor engineer like Ed can chime in with
> advantages.
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and All,
--- Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was refering to an SRE SC325 900 Amp programmable
I looked but couldn't find a 900 amp model of
theirs, SREcontrols.
Did find some interesting units though including
600 amp, 72-96vdc units which also have dual motor
support for about $850 from Cloud Electric?. They
don't know much about them though.
Another interesting one was 1,000 amps at 48vdc!
Anyone using any of these?
They sound like worthwhile units for us.
Especially those of us who want good power from lower
voltages. And the dual motor support has me intrigued.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
> controller. I don't
> know if other models have similar over-voltage
> limits. This limit is
> probably set as one of its safety features. Lots of
> parameters could be
> re-programmed, like low battery cut-off, but I
> didn't see this one in the
> manual.
>
> Regards,
>
> Doug
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>> Philippe Borges wrote:
>>
>
>> ok TS 200Ah, let's choose... your car exemple and compare 326V Optima
>> pack
> with say about 300V TS pack.
>
>>pack price:
>>$3 500 | $30 000
>
Philippe;
That's not quite right.
the pack you are quoting is a 200ah Ts pack compared to a 50ah YT pack so
the price difference is more like.
$14,000 | $30,000
Plus IF (big IF) the TS cells last as long as they predict they will go
over half a million miles, and in the long run cost less than flooded
GC's.
Plus what is it worth to never have to change whole battery pack again.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
> the rubber motor mounts themselves are in very bad shape. Since
> I don't have to worry about vibration without those stinkin'
> pistons, do I need the rubber replacements, or can I get away
> with stacking a few washers?
My ComutaVan had the motor hard-mounted to the frame. It worked just
fine. The only downside was a little more high frequency "whine" (most
of which was actually coming from the transmission, which was also
hard-mounted).
> Also, while I have peoples' attention, any suggestions for waking
> up some SLA (not AGM or gel) batteries?
I'd just let them warm up, and cycle them a few times.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dragan Stancevic wrote:
> I keep seeing these posts up and down about people warning against
> paralleling TS cells. It seems to me that the larger cells (Amp)
> are nothing but parallel cells in a unified enclosure.
Yes; this is basically true. A large cell can be looked at as many small
cells in one box.
If you had separate cells that were tightly wired and mounted together
such that they were always at the same temperature, voltage, and state
of charge, then you could treat them as a single large cell.
The problem is that this is rather difficult to achieve. The Thundersky
cells I have have thick plastic cases that act as a good insulator. If
you charge or discharge two of them in parallel at high current, they
get hot. One or the other may happen to get hotter (better airflow,
closer to the edge of the pack, etc.) The hotter one hogs the current,
which makes it get still hotter. Thus, they diverge; they don't pull
together as a team.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> "Road Test" magazine for July 1974 describes one built for
>> McCulloch Enterprises. It was expanded to 18 golf cart batteries, a
>> 15hp series motor, and SCR controller. It was also rear wheel drive,
>> with a central chassis-mounted 2-speed transaxle/differential. It
>> had a fiberglass body from a Studebaker Avanti.
David Chapman wrote:
> Could this be the car that sold on E-bay last year?
I don't know; I didn't see it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I thought the rpm told us the slip designed into the motor (class
> A,B,C,D, etc.)
Correct. It does. And slip is closely related to rotor resistance, and a
major factor in efficiency.
> As a side effect [of high slip, i.e. high rotor resistance], the
> lower rpm does cause the efficiency calculation to go south but
> it reduces starting amps and increases starting torque which may
> be more efficient overall in stop and go traffic.
This is the case when you start the motor at full line frequency. But in
an EV with an inverter, you can lower the frequency to suit the speed.
Thus, you can control starting torque and current even with a low-slip
low-resistance rotor.
> I still would like to grab a standard motor 3 phase armature, and
> press it into an aluminum cooling sleeve. Then fit a wound rotor
> with slip rings into custom end bells and use a regenerative slip
> energy recovery circuit we could have DC-like torque with an AC
> motor off the line, match the rotor impedance to the load and
> speed during acceleration and inject voltage to lock into sync
> for cruise at max efficiency.
This is done for very large AC motors. They can achieve amazing
efficiency and performance this way. But a wound rotor is more
expensive, so it is rarely done for small motors.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nick and everybody!
Nick Austin wrote:
Hello,
I'm considering buying a RAV4-EV, but I have been forced to move recently.
I'm looking for a new place to live, and I'm wondering if anybody has
any experience charging in an apartment setting.
Thanks!
I live in an apartment from which I charge the 200sx. We don't have any
plugs on the outside of the building, so I had to be tricky. I didn't
want to run an extension cord out of my front door. Besides, I had a
hard time finding 20 amp extension cords. I doubt an outside plug would
have been rated at 20 amps either. I found a free outlet in the closet
where our heater and AC reside. I installed a 20 amp GFCI outlet,
bought a 50 ft. section of 10/3 cable on ebay, and ran the cable through
a pipe hole in the heater/AC closet, behind the washer and dryer, and
out the side of our apartment through the dryer exhaust vent. Then it
runs along the side of our building (we are in the end unit), and right
to the 200sx. I built a little waterproof box outside with a switch and
extra outlet. That was handy for doing all my work in my garage...er,
carport (which was my garage for doing the conversion).
I didn't bother checking with my landlord before doing any of that.
He's pretty laid back. I doubt he would have helped me install anything
outside. It might not hurt to ask your landlord though, especially if
you're worried about getting flack about it. You could probably consult
an electrician for a more professional setup. I'm pretty comfortable
with mine. I don't feel like it poses any safety problems.
It turns out the outlet I used can't dish out the full 20+ amps the PFC
charger wants. I have to turn the dial down some. If it is all the way
up, the breaker will pop after about 10 minutes. I even replaced the
breaker with a new one. It didn't seem to help. I verified that there
were no other loads on that circuit.
I wanted a 240V outlet that could easily dish out the 20 amps. My only
option (and I'm still considering it) is to time share the dryer
outlet. I'd have a switch that would only allow either the dryer or
charger to be running at any time. My wife even gave her approval for
that! I asked since it would require flipping the switch to run the
dryer. The main thing that has stopped me from doing that setup is that
I'd lose my outlet outside. If I had run a 10/4 cable, I think I could
have tapped 120V off of it. I would also have to install a GFCI breaker
in the breaker box. I would not charge outside without a GFI breaker.
I've already come close to making a mistake that could zap me good
without one. No matter how careful you are, you still shouldn't skip
using viable safety measures.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again,
Can someone that is using Orbitals measure the sitting voltage after a
full charge and letting the batteries sit for a few hours and report
back? I want real-life data from a real Orbital.
Please let me know the temperature at the time of measurement, how long
you let them sit before measuring, and how old the batteries are. I'd
like to know if the Orbitals are actually 13.0 full, or 12.8'ish. I
seem to be getting about 12.8, but then I'm just starting to get the
hang of this whole charging thing.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings all.
I have just been given the opportunity to purchase 3 Electravan 750s.
They are in the barn of the original owner and have been there for about
10+ years.
I'm sure the rubber is destroyed and the battery banks MAY be all rusted
out if the bats have not been removed, but the price is right.
Question 1:
Does anyone have any pictures of what the ElectraVan 750 (Ford Courier
model) looked like? The owner is 76 years old and in poor health and
not in posession of a digtal camera.
Question 2: Assuming these are in decent (or even good) condition, I
really have no need for three of them, I probably need 1.25 (One, and a
few parts from another) I THINK I can get all three of the for $7,000.
If I could, would anyone else be intereted in purchasing one of them?
How about a group build? Anyone in the NC area willing to go in and see
if we can't get any/all of these running again for a reasonable cost?
Thanks.
James
Neon John wrote:
This is trivially easy to do with OBD-2 cars (95 and newer, generally).
Go here http://www.obd-2.com/ and buy one of his gateway products.
"Gateway" is the term applied to the OBD-2/RS-232 smart cable. The cheap
way out is to select the one for the particular car in question. A better
but more expensive way is to get a tri-mode or tri-mode/CANbus gateway.
Then download his free software and fire it off. In addition to being an
extremely capable diagnostic tool, it is also a datalogger. In addition
to data logging, it has an additional capability that makes the task of
MPG calculation simple. This feature is computed variables whereby one
can write an equation using intrinsic variables to create a computed one.
Almost exactly like a spreadsheet cell. Without firing up my copy of the
program and looking, I believe that an MPG variable is one of his
examples.
His software is fully functional without the cable so you can download it
and play around. He has sample log files on the web site.
Alex Peper probably knows more about OBD-2 than anyone outside the OEMs.
The advantage is that he can work with you on specific problems that the
standard software might not address. He's one of those eggheads who
doesn't speak the same language us commoners do so it sometimes takes a
bit of work to understand what he's saying. Worth the effort, though.
There are two reasons why there aren't OBD-2-based MPG gauges on the
market, I think. The biggie is that most people just don't care enough to
spend the money on the gadget. They pick a vehicle that suits their needs
that sits in the MPG class they care about and then just drive it. That
even large cars get good mileage today means that unless one is a road
warrior, one can generally ignore mileage.
The second reason is the insane state of the legal system these days.
There is a fundamental limitation on how accurate such a gauge can be
because the behavior of the fuel injector is so variable at the low open
intervals involved in idle and low throttle angle driving. With the
injector valve in almost constant motion either opening or closing, the
flow vs open time is ill defined. This behavior is actually modeled
fairly accurately within the PCM for emissions reasons but that info isn't
available on the OBD-2 data stream.
A related problem is the behavior of the fuel with temperature and
altitude. The mass flow through the injector at a given delta-P changes
with the viscosity of the fuel and that changes with temperature. The
mass flow also changes as the delta-P changes with air density. Again,
this behavior is modeled in the PCM but the information is not available
to the outside.
What all this adds up to is a computation that would not agree very well
with the miles-per-tank method of MPG computation. What happens when Joe
Blow consumer first sees the mis-match? Why, he runs to a lawyer, the
government or both.
The combo of low demand and high risk of litigation keeps the things off
the market. Perhaps someday some ChiCom outfit will make 20 million of
the things, channel them into the country through thousands of mostly
untraceable importers and they'll appear on the flea market tool tables
along with the screwdrivers that bend when you look at them.
John
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 12:09:05 -0800, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
With todays newer fuel injected car can we plug a datalogger into
the diagnostic port to capture fuel injector and rpm data? Would
that provide us with a good fuel usage numbers. What about using
In theory it should. But, I've seen precious few products that actually
make fuel consumption data available. If it were easy, I would expect to
see "miles per gallon computers" on the market that do it.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, The Ed Rannberg estate has the McCulloch car. I don't know if they wish
to sell it or not but I could check into it if you like. Please contact me
off line.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-358-7082
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Sundancer whereabouts?
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Is this vehicle still around?
http://motortrend.com/roadtests/classic/112_0405_archive/
The yellow car in the MotorTrend article looks like Sundancer #1, built
in 1970, which was sold to Exide. It had twelve golf cart batteries, a
contactor controller, 8HP series motor, and solid rear axle with the
motor mounted to it "golf-cart" fashion.
http://www.mclellansautomotive.com/sales-lit/bysub/electricvehicles/sundancer/index.shtml
The SAE report #720188 covers Sundancer #1 and #2. #2 was built in 1971
and also went to Exide. It had an SCR controller and was red, but was
otherwise much like #1.
More Sundancers were subsequently built, and the design evolved as McKee
learned and experimented. They had various names, depending on who it
was sold to (ESB, Autodynamics, McCulloch, Copper Development
Association, etc.). You can also find it called the Mk-16 Commuter Car.
The Feb 1972 issue of Mechanix Illustrated had a test report on a third
one (Tom McCahill Report -- We Test A _Practical_ Electric Car) which
had a much nicer, more finished interior.
The 17 Oct 1974 issue of "Machine Design" had a later Sundancer which
had the motor mounted transversely to the frame, with a shaft on each
end, driving each rear wheel independently with a variable-speed belt. A
13th battery was added, and the rear suspension went from a solid axle
to independent swing axles.
"Road Test" magazine for July 1974 describes one built for McCulloch
Enterprises. It was expanded to 18 golf cart batteries, a 15hp series
motor, and SCR controller. It was also rear wheel drive, with a central
chassis-mounted 2-speed transaxle/differential. It had a fiberglass body
from a Studebaker Avanti.
In 1975, another one appeared as the Copper Electric Town Car. It had 18
golf cart batteries in the central backbone like all Sundancers, but
this one rolls out the rear. A compound-wound DC motor drives the front
wheels thru a transaxle. Hydrocaps reduced watering. The steel body was
very streamlined, and had the interesting feature of sliding doors.
I don't know where any of the Sundancers are today. I tried hard to buy
one, but failed. I did find the one built for Autodynamics in an
amusement park in Rhode Island, but it had been butchered to use as a
ride.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
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--- Begin Message ---
I know that removing and replacing a normal (internal combustion) engine
on a VW Beetle can be done in a couple of hours (or less) with two
people (mostly for lifting). It simply bolts to the transmission.
Since the electric has less connections, you probably can do it in an hour.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to do a first conversion the simplest possible way and wonder what that would
be. I've read through "Convert It" and have been doing a lot of site surfing.
A couple sites of interest are by Bohan Design (http://members.aol.com/BohanDesign/qig/default.htm) and Wilderness EV (http://www.e-volks.com/) who both offer a motor / adapter plate assembly that bolts right onto the VW Bug/Beetle tranny/flywheel without any need to remove the tranny. Both say you can remove the internal combustion engine and bolt on their assemblies in less than an hour. That sounds great but has anyone had experience with these? With Electro-Automotive's kits/parts, do you have to remove the tranny?
I'd enjoy hearing feedback on these and other options. I've been watching EVfinder, et.al. but haven't seen an EV for sale yet that looked interesting enough to make an offer on so I may do a conversion.
Mark Freidberg
________________________________________________________________
NetZero Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.netzero.com/give
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Porsche 911 rear motor mount (the 914 is similar) has pretty thin
metal. It is primarily meant to hold the end of the motor up and
resist up-and-down motions from axle torque (motor torque gets
reacted to the tranny). It is weak against motor torque,
side-to-side, or fore-and-aft forces. Without the compliance of the
rubber, a little twisting of the body (this is normal) or motor
torque could bend it. Even if the bend is small, it'll happen over
and over and eventually break the mount. I'd vote for sticking with
the rubber.
> Ben Apollonio wrote:
> > the rubber motor mounts themselves are in very bad shape. Since
> > I don't have to worry about vibration without those stinkin'
> > pistons, do I need the rubber replacements, or can I get away
> > with stacking a few washers?
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a picture (I think, found it with google):
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum//142.html
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jarrett
> Sent: Mittwoch, 5. Januar 2005 10:53
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Electravan 750 (Ford Courier)
>
>
> Greetings all.
>
> I have just been given the opportunity to purchase 3 Electravan 750s.
> They are in the barn of the original owner and have been
> there for about
> 10+ years.
>
> I'm sure the rubber is destroyed and the battery banks MAY be
> all rusted
> out if the bats have not been removed, but the price is right.
>
> Question 1:
>
> Does anyone have any pictures of what the ElectraVan 750
> (Ford Courier
> model) looked like? The owner is 76 years old and in poor health and
> not in posession of a digtal camera.
>
> Question 2: Assuming these are in decent (or even good) condition, I
> really have no need for three of them, I probably need 1.25
> (One, and a
> few parts from another) I THINK I can get all three of the
> for $7,000.
> If I could, would anyone else be intereted in purchasing one of them?
>
> How about a group build? Anyone in the NC area willing to go
> in and see
> if we can't get any/all of these running again for a reasonable cost?
>
> Thanks.
>
> James
>
> Neon John wrote:
> > This is trivially easy to do with OBD-2 cars (95 and newer,
> generally).
> >
> > Go here http://www.obd-2.com/ and buy one of his gateway products.
> > "Gateway" is the term applied to the OBD-2/RS-232 smart
> cable. The cheap
> > way out is to select the one for the particular car in
> question. A better
> > but more expensive way is to get a tri-mode or
> tri-mode/CANbus gateway.
> >
> > Then download his free software and fire it off. In
> addition to being an
> > extremely capable diagnostic tool, it is also a datalogger.
> In addition
> > to data logging, it has an additional capability that makes
> the task of
> > MPG calculation simple. This feature is computed variables
> whereby one
> > can write an equation using intrinsic variables to create a
> computed one.
> > Almost exactly like a spreadsheet cell. Without firing up
> my copy of the
> > program and looking, I believe that an MPG variable is one of his
> > examples.
> >
> > His software is fully functional without the cable so you
> can download it
> > and play around. He has sample log files on the web site.
> >
> > Alex Peper probably knows more about OBD-2 than anyone
> outside the OEMs.
> > The advantage is that he can work with you on specific
> problems that the
> > standard software might not address. He's one of those eggheads who
> > doesn't speak the same language us commoners do so it
> sometimes takes a
> > bit of work to understand what he's saying. Worth the
> effort, though.
> >
> > There are two reasons why there aren't OBD-2-based MPG gauges on the
> > market, I think. The biggie is that most people just don't
> care enough to
> > spend the money on the gadget. They pick a vehicle that
> suits their needs
> > that sits in the MPG class they care about and then just
> drive it. That
> > even large cars get good mileage today means that unless
> one is a road
> > warrior, one can generally ignore mileage.
> >
> > The second reason is the insane state of the legal system
> these days.
> > There is a fundamental limitation on how accurate such a
> gauge can be
> > because the behavior of the fuel injector is so variable at
> the low open
> > intervals involved in idle and low throttle angle driving. With the
> > injector valve in almost constant motion either opening or
> closing, the
> > flow vs open time is ill defined. This behavior is actually modeled
> > fairly accurately within the PCM for emissions reasons but
> that info isn't
> > available on the OBD-2 data stream.
> >
> > A related problem is the behavior of the fuel with temperature and
> > altitude. The mass flow through the injector at a given
> delta-P changes
> > with the viscosity of the fuel and that changes with
> temperature. The
> > mass flow also changes as the delta-P changes with air
> density. Again,
> > this behavior is modeled in the PCM but the information is
> not available
> > to the outside.
> >
> > What all this adds up to is a computation that would not
> agree very well
> > with the miles-per-tank method of MPG computation. What
> happens when Joe
> > Blow consumer first sees the mis-match? Why, he runs to a
> lawyer, the
> > government or both.
> >
> > The combo of low demand and high risk of litigation keeps
> the things off
> > the market. Perhaps someday some ChiCom outfit will make
> 20 million of
> > the things, channel them into the country through thousands
> of mostly
> > untraceable importers and they'll appear on the flea market
> tool tables
> > along with the screwdrivers that bend when you look at them.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 12:09:05 -0800, Lee Hart
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Jeff Shanab wrote:
> >>
> >>>With todays newer fuel injected car can we plug a datalogger into
> >>>the diagnostic port to capture fuel injector and rpm data? Would
> >>>that provide us with a good fuel usage numbers. What about using
> >>
> >>In theory it should. But, I've seen precious few products
> that actually
> >>make fuel consumption data available. If it were easy, I
> would expect to
> >>see "miles per gallon computers" on the market that do it.
> >>--
> >>"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> >>citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> >>has!" -- Margaret Mead
> >
> >
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
