EV Digest 4066
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(Forbes Backseat Driver Not So Smart)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(Story gets more mileage than Ranger EV)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Stonemart EVs)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(University's Tiger Truck EV)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: High voltage EV audio system OT: White Zombie and other stuff
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Electromatic motor
by NMS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Give your feedback on PHEV article
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Aux battery drain & charging rates
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) one more: CBS News
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
by "Ivo Jara G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) pusher trailer info
by "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: pusher trailer info
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: pusher trailer info
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Prius Batteries
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Forbes Backseat Driver Not So Smart)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.forbes.com/global/2005/0207/056.html
Backseat Driver
Not So Smart
Jerry Flint , 02.07.05
The concept of the tiny Smart car made no sense from Day One.
Even leaders of the automobile industry at times forget what a
car is about. More From Jerry Flint 2003 Loeb Award Winner
Every auto company makes mistakes. Usually it's poor
execution--weak design, sloppy handling, zipless engines or
misunderstanding a market. But sometimes the bosses just forget
what an automobile is supposed to be. They get carried away with
an idea and spend hundreds of millions, or even billions, of
dollars to build a vehicle that makes no sense.
Examples: General Motors' electric car in 1997, a two-seater with
a range of 40 to 80 miles.
[...]
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=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(Story gets more mileage than Ranger EV)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0%2C1413%2C207~12041~2677790%2C00.html
Article Published: Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 5:55:26 PM PST
William Korthof , 26, of Pomona owns a 199 Ford Ranger EV an
electric truck. Ford has discontinued the electric program and
Korthof was one of two that held a sit in at a dealership in
Sacramento to persuad Ford to sell them the cars January 27.
2005.
(Staff Photo Keith Birmingham/) Electrifying deal Ford
sells discontinued truck to Pomona man for $1 By Joe Florkowski
Staff Writer
POMONA -- Bill Korthof is seemingly the ideal Ford customer.
He loves his 1999 Ford Ranger EV, which he began leasing in
December 2000.
In fact, the 26-year-old Pomona resident has driven about 60,000
miles in the electric vehicle, which can go about 80 miles on one
charge of its battery.
But despite being a satisfied customer, Korthof battled until
last week with the company over his Ranger. Ford Motor Co., which
is scrapping its electric vehicle fleet, wanted to reclaim the
vehicle.
Korthof refused and, with another Ford EV owner, held a week-long
sit-in outside a Sacramento Ford dealership.
"Somebody's got to step up and make the commitment to help move
this technology forward,' he said.
Ford officials finally relented after the sit-in and offered to
sell the car to Korthof for $1, he said.
Korthof, who has made more than $18,000 in lease payments on the
Ranger, said he's satisfied with the outcome.
"This is in Ford's interest because they have a satisfied
customer,' he said.
Dealing in alternative sources of energy is nothing new for
Korthof, president of Pomona- based Energy Efficiency Solar. The
company, which uses cars powered by natural gas and electric
power, installs solar cells on homes and businesses.
Korthof, who also owns another electric vehicle, said he's
interested in alternative energy sources for a number of
reasons.
One is to reduce America's dependence on imported oil. Another is
protecting the environment in Los Angeles.
But auto companies are moving away from electric vehicles and
investing more in gasoline-electric hybrids. While the hybrids
are a positive step and improve fuel efficiency, electric vehicle
manufacturing has suffered, Korthof said.
"They've been putting all their battery development on the back
burner,' he said. "They don't give people the choice to move away
from the gas pump.'
Korthof said the protest in Sacramento - complete with signs -
was peaceful.
"We were two guys who wanted to keep using our trucks,' hesaid.
During the middle of the protest, which ended Jan. 21, Ford
contacted the two men and made the offer to sell the trucks,
Korthof said.
Ford officials who were contacted Thursday issued a press release
that said the company will work with Korthof and other Ford
Ranger EV owners so they can purchase their vehicles.
One benefit of keeping the electric vehicle, Korthof said, is
that he can avoid getting gas.
When asked about the last time he filled up, Korthof said it was
a while. Driving with a friend to Sacramento last week, they
bought gas, Korthof said.
"Before that it was two years,' he said. "It's been a long
time.'
-- Joe Florkowski can be reached at (909) 483-9391.
-
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EVLN(Stonemart EVs)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://namct.com/news/index.php?p=1695&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Post details: Battery Operated Electric Vehicle(BOEV)To Be Used
In Stonemart-2005 01/28/05 Permalink 05:43:15 am, Categories:
Advertising, Business, General, 541 words English (US) Battery
Operated Electric Vehicle(BOEV)To Be Used In Stonemart-2005
INDIA, Jan 28, 2005�After completing studies Lalit Ahuja started
�Hydraulics & Pneumatics� (H&P) in 1993, under the able guidance
of his father Mr.V.K.Ahuja who is an Engineer from BITS, one
could not find even a simple O-Ring for the Hydraulics &
Pneumatics Industry in the whole state. Since then they have
introduced automation in 100�s of small and medium scale
industries in Rajasthan.
They are now an �A-Z Under One Roof � store for all kinds of
automation related spares and provide complete automation
solutions for every industry. Being the Biggest Industrial Store
in Rajasthan spread over 14000 sq.ft. of built up space they
carry an inventory of more than 20,000 types of Best Quality
Components.Their brands � �TUFIT� and �hp� are well known in the
industry for their superior quality and reliability.
Their customers include MICO, NBC, Eicher, Ericsson, Samcor,
Chambal Fertiliser, RSEB, Railways, IOCL, BPCL, HPCL, ONGC, BARC,
HMT, Escorts, R.K.Marbles, Shree Cement, Binani Cement and 100�s
of other Small & Medium Scale Industries.
A dedicated team of professionals includes Engineers, MBA�s,
ITI�s and other highly committed and trained staff, who provides
excellent Sales & After Sales Services. Customer Delight is their
Motto.
Lalit Ahuja is a Governing Board Member of CDOS (Center for
Development of Stones) � which is the apex stone industry
association in India set up in 1998 as a non-profit making
initiative of the State Government of Rajasthan and RIICO, with
the assistance of the private sector. H&P provides automation
solutions to the Stone Industry in Raj.
H&P is also life members of the Plastic Manufacturer Association
of Rajasthan, Jaipur Industrial Estate Association and several
other trade associations.
H&P has been participating in Stonemart at Jaipur since its
inception. In this 3rd Stonemart H&P is displaying � 6 Seater
Battery Operated Electric Vehicle which a boon to the Large
Industries, Hotels & Stockyards where a In Plant Movement Vehicle
is needed which is pollution free, versatile, noise less,
maintenance free, cost effective and very easy to use.
This Vehicle will be used to transport all the VIP�s during
Stonemart-2005 at Sitapura Jaipur, Rajasthan, India from 28th Jan
-1st Feb�05. Govt. Of Rajasthan, Finance Department � Tax
Division � Notification Dtd. July 12th, 2004 exempts from tax the
sale or the purchase of such exclusively battery operated motor
vehicles. After this notification was released this will be the
1st time such a vehicle will be presented before the Govt. of
Rajasthan.
Also on display at stall no. 10 in Hall A is a revolutionary
concept in Hydraulic Oil Cleaning. The equipment is called
Electrostatic Oil Cleaner and guarantees Oil filtration upto 0.1
Microns and a trouble free Oil Life of 15 Years!
Other things on display are Hydraulic Pallet Truck (2.5 tonnes),
Hydraulic Jack for Marble Mines, Industrial Duty Heavy Vacuum
Cleaner, Electronic Automation Panel, Automatic Panel for Marble
& Granite Polishing Machine, Hydraulic Hoses, Fittings, FRL�s,
Cylinders, Pumps, Direction/Pressure/Flow Control Valves,
Pressure & Temperature Gauges, Filters, Torque Wrenches,
Transducers, Limit Switches, Pneumatic Tools, Hydraulic Puller &
Filter Presses for Marble Gang saw etc.
Entrepreneurs like Lalit are determined to make Rajasthan one of
the fastest growing states in the country, and we wish them all
the luck.
Contact: Lalit Ahuja HYDRAULICS & PNEUMATICS 91-141-2211348
-
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(University's Tiger Truck EV)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.dailyemerald.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/01/28/41f9f9321286d
University employs electric truck to aid recyclers
Anthony Lucero News Reporter January 28, 2005
[image] University Facilities Services recently used student fees
to purchase an electric vehicle to help manage campus recycling.
The University is the proud owner of a Tiger Truck -- a vehicle
that runs completely on electricity. The truck, which was paid
for by student fees, will help the University's Facilities
Services in gathering recycling and compost material on campus
and at events.
The Tiger Truck, smaller than the traditional step van that
Facilities Services uses, is able to carry 1,200 pounds on its
truck bed and will be used mainly for handling recycled cans,
bottles and newspapers It will also be used instead of bicycles
during winter term and during events such as the ASUO Street
Faire and Folk Festival, Karyn Kaplan, the environmental resource
and recycling manager, said.
"We just got it last fall and it took us a while -- got it
painted, licensed, insured -- all that happened (during) the
first term and ended in December," Kaplan said. "We are just
starting to break it out. The first route is four hours. We have
to get our staff trained to use it."
Kaplan said only one person so far is certified to use it.
Yet, the electric vehicle has proven itself useful already for
Facilities Services, managing recycling during the Street Faire
earlier this year and assisting in gathering recyclable items on
campus.
Current use includes "outside drop-off collections and some
special collections with odd items: books, compact discs,
Styrofoam peanuts," Kaplan said. "We'll use it for campus events
with places that are tighter to get into."
Kaplan added the truck will soon become vital for Facilities
Services.
"We have so many events coming up in the next month and a half,"
Kaplan said, citing specifically the Folk Festival and
Sustainable Business Symposium.
Though the Tiger Truck hasn't been fully implemented yet, the
electric vehicle is already lessening many loads for Facilities
Services and University recycling.
For one, the Tiger Truck costs only a little more than $300 to
maintain per year compared to the $1,400 Kaplan estimates it
costs to maintain the traditional step van. While step vans have
fuel costs, among other maintenance costs, only batteries and
tires are required for the Tiger Truck's upkeep. A traditional
battery for the electric truck lasts about five years. Also, the
truck produces no emissions.
"It's a lot better for the campus because ... when the truck's
idling through campus it doesn't spew emissions," Kaplan said.
According to Tiger Truck's Web site, the Tiger Truck uses a
48-volt battery that lasts between 22 and 66 miles per charge
with an eight-hour recharge time if the battery is completely
depleted.
Jim Fleck, the recycling coordinator for Facilities Services,
said the truck is powered by "an onboard charger. ... You just
plug it into a household outlet and it's all self-contained with
everything it needs to recharge."
Fleck said many other electric vehicles have a charger that must
be mounted.
"We recycled 1,200 tons last year, and that's about 660 pounds of
recycling per day split up, but we don't pick up recycling on the
weekends," Kaplan said.
By the end of winter term, the Tiger Truck will take over many of
the bicycle routes typically serviced by the 35-40 student
employees the Facilities Services program hires, Fleck said. "We
feel it's a vehicle that would lend itself to other uses," Fleck
said. "We would like the campus environment to have more electric
vehicles."
For now, the truck has improved Facilities Services' recycling
tasks.
"It's a huge benefit to students, and it models that electric
vehicles are the future, but shows it's something that works
today," Kaplan said. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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I suspect you are correct. From the data that was on
their website it appeared that the Zinc Oxide,the
result of discharging the Zinc/KOH mixture could be
re-separated by placing a charge into the same cell
that a charge was removed from. Very much sounded like
a battery at the time. However to hasten the recharge
they would pump out the Zinc Oxide and refuel with the
Zinc/KOH mixture there by creating a recharged cell
without plugging in. The filling Station purposed
could be hooked up to any electrical power source and
recharge the Zinc Oxide to Zinc/KOH for reuse. I don't
know what they used for plates to pull the energy,
however I suspect if you had a Zinc/KOH or Zinc/Air
battery you could recharge it just like a regular
battery except you would circulate the fluid for both
Charge and discharge.
I do not know how fast the conversion took place.
I wish I knew how to build one to test out. As Zinc is
an abundant and easily obtained mineral. KOH is simple
to obtain as well. Unfortunately I know know his
design or what plates he used. But I believe you are
correct and owners where attempting to pull a silicon
chip type revolution in Batteries with the label Fuel
Cell.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The big problem with Zinc Air is the refueling
> structure and the companies
> all trying to control it. Greed is what is killing
> Zinc Air. LR
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
>
>
> >I attempted to get hold of them a while back. The
> > spec's looked good but their plans had holes the
> size
> > of the moon. They were basing off of main stream
> > acceptance and a refueling structure that was non
> > exsistant. Had they proposed it as a battery
> instead
> > and sold to EV'er I think they would have done
> quite
> > well. They only wanted to sell to Auto OEM's which
> > didn't want electric vehicle in the first place.
> >
> >
> > --- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> > Another company bites the dust. Zinc air is a
> >> great technology.
> >>
> >> Maybe for batteries....
> >>
> >> > Metallic Power was developing zinc fuel cell
> >> technology, and had
> >> > raised over $40M in venture
> funding...<SNIP>...but
> >> had been unable to
> >> > manufacture it economically.
> >>
> >> Another example that throwing large sums of money
> at
> >> fool cells will not
> >> automagically make them cheap to produce.
> >>
> >> How much could have been accomplished if that
> $40M
> >> had been spent on
> >> pure battery technology development? It's
> >> heartbreaking, really. There
> >> is SO MUCH money available to throw at fool
> cells,
> >> yet companies that
> >> are PROVING that BEV technology is reliable,
> >> practical, and cost
> >> effective (with volume production) continue to
> >> scrape by on tablescraps
> >> with no big investment in the space.
> >>
> >> -Ken Trough
> >> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> >> http://visforvoltage.com
> >> AIM - ktrough
> >> FAX - 801-749-7807
> >> message - 866-872-8901
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
>
>
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Has anyone on the list worked for any of the Zinc Air people? If you can
explain the refueling process I'd sure like to know if it is indeed a big
electrolisis machine or a smelter like Rich says. If it is electrolisis one
of Rudmans Charger would be a great back end for the electrodes. Who knows
for sure? World wide there are a few fleets in service. Israel, Germany,,,
where else? Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
You are kind of right.
Zinc air is a very good idea... IF the recharging is taken care of.
The point is it is not a well done slick, Pump Da Juice back into the Can
kind of recharge.
It takes the same efforts that extracting Zn from it's Mineral ores does.
High heat reducing atmospheres... Fluxes... and fumes. Most of us don't
want a Zinc smelter in our back yard, even if it is small and cute and
well
designed. This is Zn Air's down fall. Recharge is a electro mechanical
Bitch!
I read through thier stuff about 4 years a go when they looked like a
"Coming Thing". Somebody promised me a Battery stack, it never got here...
I
never got to see it work.
Some day something like it will make it. It's cheap and works, If you can
get the Cans safley from user to processor. No really deadly stuff, just
Koh.... That's industrial DrainO ... for those that don't know.
Same stuff NiCds use and NiZn, and AgNi.
So.. it's going to take a different design, and distribution philosiphy.
And funding, like... steady growth and little if no VC...The Big Venture
Capital guys like massive growth and bail at the first sign of
problems.
There is no question the chemistry can store the amphours... and return it
slowly but sureley....And some EVs can take advantage of this. But not in
the normal sense. All the range runs done on Zn air had Blue smoke and
mirrors... to cover the fact that a Golf cart at 25 Mph... could move for
100s of miles...making about the same power as a good bicyclist makes....
100s of lbs of Zinc, many Kwhrs, but at only a couple of Kw delivery
rates.
Umm not for the main stream....
It sure looked good. And the funding and the engineering looked top
notch...
And you have to ask why they failed???
Maybe the recharge procedure was not engineered in a profitable manner???
It
may not be able to be done in a "profitable" manner...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: Metallic Power Shuts Doors
Zinc Air isn't a fuel cell. It is more battery. They used Fuel cell I
think to avoid the "Battery negatives". This technology is fully
rechargable but every single maker keeps the charging difficult so you
are
forced to spend large sums of money for it to work. This works for bus
fleets where a million dollar charging system makes sense. It doesn't
make
sense for a scooter even if it could go 500 miles per charge. Thats no
kidding. Zinc Air works. If someone developed a charger for single or
even
three to 5 vehicle use I'd buy one. It's just an electrolosis machine.
This technology has twice the energy density of Lithium. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon Henry wrote:
>And remember John, those attending Woodburn are
>there to see the White
>Zombie dust off a Viper. Last year you couldn't even
>keep up with Otmar :-)
Oooooh! SMACK! You gonna' take that John?
I can't wait to see what Zombie pulls this race season. I'd
be more interested in seeing Blue Meanie get an upgrade and
hearing about how it performs, but with the Zombie you are
writing history and really turning heads at the drag strip.
Lets hope you pull mid 12s and hit 105, or better. You won't
let the creator of some tacky kit car with exotic batteries
and a pricey AC drive claim to have best you, will you?
Maybe the next step is getting a Zilla 2k to give you a
bigger rush for before you hit 'the switch', or getting
Otmar to somehow come up with a Zilla 3k, thus negating your
need for 'the switch' entirely.
This forklift is quite interesting. You'll have the world's
only soundoff street EV, the world's only soundoff garden
tractor, and the world's only soundoff forklift as well.
That is going to turn some heads.
I never really listened to any sort of music much, but when
my EV is finished and usable, I do intend to have a nice
sound system, just to shatter a few myths, even if the sound
may go unused 99.9% of the time. I'll be certain to ask you
for recommendations on systems and speakers when the time
comes. I'm thinking 600 watts or so should be plenty.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ivo Jara G. wrote:
>Get a small block chevy 350 cubic inch with no cat
>and a special camshaft,
>do not forget a holley double pumper carburator.
>
>Just kidding, but those figures are way too high.
I considered a V6 or a V8 in a tiny british car or a Porsche
914(Was thinking either a twin-turboed Buick Grand National
Engine if a V6, or a supercharged 302 if a V8), before I was
surfing the net and saw the TZero many years ago. I'm
determined to have a fast electric from here on out. It's
possible as others have done it, and I'm not at all
enthusiastic about using gasoline for various reasons that
will stay off this list.
The performance as an EV may end up humiliating what a
Triumph with a V8 shoved into it would do. I'll wait and
see. I wish to keep as many original Triumph components as
possible while making it a fairly practical car(Thus the
Lucas wiring will go. Blech.). Since the tranny is not good
at handling more than 250 lb-ft(TR6 tranny/diff is
considered bulletproof, but that 250 lb-ft all I've heard of
it handling with reliability), a Zilla 2k may not be the
smartest decision. 1,000 amps motor current will produce
about 220 lb-ft from an ADC9 or a WarP 9'', accounting back
emf. This assumes a motor efficiency of 58% at that current,
using the equations provided in Bob Brandt's book. This 220
lb-ft of torque would go up to about 3,600 RPM at 192 max
motor volts, the voltage the WarP 9'' is rated at(The ADC
can go up to 170V without arcing I was told by Rudman, but
the WarP 9'' is beefed up). 150 horsepower(Accounting motor
efficiency losses) in what will be a < 2,600 pound car, WITH
good aerodynamics and with its peak torque at 0 RPM. That's
going to give 0-60 in less than 7 seconds and allow a top
speed of 120 with a 6,500 RPM limit, 130 with a 7,000 RPM
limit. With what may be a .27-.29 coefficient drag after
aero upgrades and 15 square foot frontal area, it should
have no problem reaching either top speed. When simulating
performance, I've always looked at the efficiency vs. amps
curve on Netgain's site for the 9'', and established a
linear relationship from the highest amps the curve is shown
to that 58% mark at 1,000 motor amps, and estimated from
there. By default, that would be a low estimate, since the
curve is not at all going to be linear. If the TR6 unit
cannot take the torque from a Z1k, a Datsun 240Z gearbox and
differential will be placed into the car, with eventual
plans to upgrade to a Zilla 2k. Either way, this is going
to(hopefully) be one sweet f------- car. Highway range is
expected to be 25-30 miles max, although given what others
have done, I may be pleasantly surprised to see it attain
double that. I expect a little less than 190 wh/mile
consuption at 60 MPH. Just as long as I don't have too many
screw-ups, and as a first conversion, there is bound to be
more than a few.
A shame that the NiZn are slugs(let alone unobtainable).
Looks like I'll be using lead acid with 100% certainty for
the first conversion. Using old Prius or Insight NiMH packs
wouldn't be the smartest decision, given all the software
work, battery management, and testing that would be required
to get a functioning battery pack built. Wouldn't even be
garunteed if a pack I scrounged in a salvage yard would be
shot or not. That's way too big of a risk, even if another
person has done this in a Clubman kit car. Would rather
spend that time going the 18650 Li Ion route when I'd get
that kind of money. $500 per kWh and dropping...
Imagine what battery pack production for 100,000 EVs per
year would do.
I'll eventually answer Roger Stockton's questions via email.
I ran simulations given varying criteria for the max battery
current, motor efficiencies, ect. But since the Nevercells
are slugs anyway, and don't have that kind of power, nor are
they even available, those numbers I theorized for a
conversion using them are all moot.
I can't wait to begin posting photos.
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One of the funny things about having a nice stereo in an EV is that the
first question people ask is how much it limits your range. I remember
asking Wayland this myself, way back when I was new to this stuff. People
have no concept of how much energy it takes to move a car. They just know
how far they can go between fillups, and of course the price of gas.
I never really listened to any sort of music much, but when
my EV is finished and usable, I do intend to have a nice
sound system, just to shatter a few myths, even if the sound
may go unused 99.9% of the time. I'll be certain to ask you
for recommendations on systems and speakers when the time
comes. I'm thinking 600 watts or so should be plenty.
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*nod* I have the same thought about lights, AC, and even heat. Since my
runtime is 30 miles tops on the car, and I can do that in 30-60 minutes
time the AC system reduces range by at most 3 miles and the heat by 6 miles.
Weather temps affect the range far more than the heat :-)
Chris
damon henry wrote:
One of the funny things about having a nice stereo in an EV is that the
first question people ask is how much it limits your range. I remember
asking Wayland this myself, way back when I was new to this stuff.
People have no concept of how much energy it takes to move a car. They
just know how far they can go between fillups, and of course the price
of gas.
I never really listened to any sort of music much, but when
my EV is finished and usable, I do intend to have a nice
sound system, just to shatter a few myths, even if the sound
may go unused 99.9% of the time. I'll be certain to ask you
for recommendations on systems and speakers when the time
comes. I'm thinking 600 watts or so should be plenty.
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How do you think about the electromatic motor
(presented at www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com).
It is a hoax or it could work? Seems to be an very
simple and efficient EV. I couldn't find additional
information on the Internet about that matter.
Sorin ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
If you have time, please use the links below to dash
off a quick Letter to the Editor (250-300 words or
less) about the story on plug-in hybrids that appeared
in the Christian Science Monitor on Jan. 27 and in USA
Today's Tech section on Jan. 28. The sooner you send
it, the better the chances of publication.
If you missed the story, it's here:
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2005-01-28-plugged-in-hybrids_x.htm
To send a letter to the Christian Science Monitor and
reporter Mark Clatyon, go to:
http://www.csmonitor.com/cgi-bin/encryptmail.pl?ID=CDE1F2EBA0C3ECE1F9F4EFEE&url=/2005/0127/p14s01-stct.html
To send a letter to USA Today, go to:
http://www.usatoday.com/marketing/feedback/feedback-online.aspx?type=18
Sherry
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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On Sun, 2005-01-30 at 14:19 -0800, Bob Bath wrote:
> Hey all!
> Had an interesting thing happen on CivicWithACord.
> Used for short hops all week, then not at all
> Sat./Sun., and woke to a dead aux. batt. on Monday.
Don't forget the obvious... the DC/DC may not be putting out any power.
In my case I had a lot of issues with the DCP DC/DC before getting
everything ironed out. (Intermittent 12v fuse, input fuse blowing, etc)
I didn't have a 12v gauge so I learned how to determine 12v system
voltage by how much the check engine light dimmed when the turn signal
cycled. A 12v system voltmeter is pretty handy for catching DC/DC or
battery problems before a dead 12v system leaves you stranded.
Mark
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At 6:50 PM +0000 1-30-05, damon henry wrote:
And remember John, those attending Woodburn are there to see the
White Zombie dust off a Viper. Last year you couldn't even keep up
with Otmar :-)
Ohhhh, That must hurt.
I guess no one remembers that you actually did beat me that day. And
that you did it with a severely handicapped car that almost didn't
run. Too bad the cameras weren't running on that run. Will you ever
live this one down? :-)
I guess that just shows how important it is for the car to be ready
next season.
I can't wait to hear how it does all tuned in at high voltage, with
all the improvements that almost got to shine at the last race,
leaving my records even farther in the dust!
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
The PHEV article also appeared on the CBS News.com web
site. You can send your comments to them, too, at the
link below. Scroll to the bottom of the page and click
on Contact Us.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/27/tech/main669741.shtml
Sherry
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
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It is perfectly feasible to make a high performance ev, in fact, there are
lots of them drag racing, bu tnothing is free, as the V8 uses mor gasoline,
your high power motor will use more amps, you can go just one way, a better
power to weight ratio, in this scenario, you can use a pretty standard
motor, a few batteries, and a very light vehicle , basically a drag racer.
Or you can have a perfectly functional vehicle, and then see how you can
stuff enough batteries and HP's to make it fast, I read once a page inthe
internet "the phisics of an EV", and it was very illustrating.
In any vehicle, your performance figures will come from the ratio HP/pound,
1/1 ratio is excelent (as an example), a corvette has about 1/3Hp per pound
(did not calculate this, is an estimate), so grab all the light materials
you can, the most powerful motor you can find, and just enough batteries to
get it through the 1/4 mile, and you have a winner.
God luck
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de John Westlund
Enviado el: lunes, 31 de enero de 2005 6:57
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: RE: people willing to buy EVs OT: NiZn batteries
Ivo Jara G. wrote:
>Get a small block chevy 350 cubic inch with no cat
>and a special camshaft,
>do not forget a holley double pumper carburator.
>
>Just kidding, but those figures are way too high.
I considered a V6 or a V8 in a tiny british car or a Porsche
914(Was thinking either a twin-turboed Buick Grand National
Engine if a V6, or a supercharged 302 if a V8), before I was
surfing the net and saw the TZero many years ago. I'm
determined to have a fast electric from here on out. It's
possible as others have done it, and I'm not at all
enthusiastic about using gasoline for various reasons that
will stay off this list.
The performance as an EV may end up humiliating what a
Triumph with a V8 shoved into it would do. I'll wait and
see. I wish to keep as many original Triumph components as
possible while making it a fairly practical car(Thus the
Lucas wiring will go. Blech.). Since the tranny is not good
at handling more than 250 lb-ft(TR6 tranny/diff is
considered bulletproof, but that 250 lb-ft all I've heard of
it handling with reliability), a Zilla 2k may not be the
smartest decision. 1,000 amps motor current will produce
about 220 lb-ft from an ADC9 or a WarP 9'', accounting back
emf. This assumes a motor efficiency of 58% at that current,
using the equations provided in Bob Brandt's book. This 220
lb-ft of torque would go up to about 3,600 RPM at 192 max
motor volts, the voltage the WarP 9'' is rated at(The ADC
can go up to 170V without arcing I was told by Rudman, but
the WarP 9'' is beefed up). 150 horsepower(Accounting motor
efficiency losses) in what will be a < 2,600 pound car, WITH
good aerodynamics and with its peak torque at 0 RPM. That's
going to give 0-60 in less than 7 seconds and allow a top
speed of 120 with a 6,500 RPM limit, 130 with a 7,000 RPM
limit. With what may be a .27-.29 coefficient drag after
aero upgrades and 15 square foot frontal area, it should
have no problem reaching either top speed. When simulating
performance, I've always looked at the efficiency vs. amps
curve on Netgain's site for the 9'', and established a
linear relationship from the highest amps the curve is shown
to that 58% mark at 1,000 motor amps, and estimated from
there. By default, that would be a low estimate, since the
curve is not at all going to be linear. If the TR6 unit
cannot take the torque from a Z1k, a Datsun 240Z gearbox and
differential will be placed into the car, with eventual
plans to upgrade to a Zilla 2k. Either way, this is going
to(hopefully) be one sweet f------- car. Highway range is
expected to be 25-30 miles max, although given what others
have done, I may be pleasantly surprised to see it attain
double that. I expect a little less than 190 wh/mile
consuption at 60 MPH. Just as long as I don't have too many
screw-ups, and as a first conversion, there is bound to be
more than a few.
A shame that the NiZn are slugs(let alone unobtainable).
Looks like I'll be using lead acid with 100% certainty for
the first conversion. Using old Prius or Insight NiMH packs
wouldn't be the smartest decision, given all the software
work, battery management, and testing that would be required
to get a functioning battery pack built. Wouldn't even be
garunteed if a pack I scrounged in a salvage yard would be
shot or not. That's way too big of a risk, even if another
person has done this in a Clubman kit car. Would rather
spend that time going the 18650 Li Ion route when I'd get
that kind of money. $500 per kWh and dropping...
Imagine what battery pack production for 100,000 EVs per
year would do.
I'll eventually answer Roger Stockton's questions via email.
I ran simulations given varying criteria for the max battery
current, motor efficiencies, ect. But since the Nevercells
are slugs anyway, and don't have that kind of power, nor are
they even available, those numbers I theorized for a
conversion using them are all moot.
I can't wait to begin posting photos.
--
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My recollection is that John posted a better time than you Otmar, but he
could not seem to beat you head to head. I believe he was running against
Bob Salem when he made his best run of the day which was better than yours.
In all fairness, John had some last minute mishaps which almost kept him off
the track all together, but then again that is kind of the point. We don't
want John getting so busy with the Fork Lift project to allow for more White
Zombie mishaps this year.
There are few that have the chance to get out and support John on the track
as much as me, as his gasser hunting grounds are close to my house. This
makes it almost impossible to not take a poke at him once in a while about
last years Woodburn, but anyone who has been around Drag Racing knows that
many planets have to line up to make for one of those magical days at the
track where new records are set. Most other days feel like a step in the
wrong direction as you find out you pushed the envelope in the wrong
direction yet again.
From: Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: High voltage EV audio system
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:29:34 -0800
At 6:50 PM +0000 1-30-05, damon henry wrote:
And remember John, those attending Woodburn are there to see the White
Zombie dust off a Viper. Last year you couldn't even keep up with Otmar
:-)
Ohhhh, That must hurt.
I guess no one remembers that you actually did beat me that day. And that
you did it with a severely handicapped car that almost didn't run. Too bad
the cameras weren't running on that run. Will you ever live this one down?
:-)
I guess that just shows how important it is for the car to be ready next
season.
I can't wait to hear how it does all tuned in at high voltage, with all the
improvements that almost got to shine at the last race, leaving my records
even farther in the dust!
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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application... add a pusher trailer to a small ev pickup weight of approx.
2700 lbs, need to add another 60 miles to distance
traveled...using a wisconsin air cooled 65 h.p. engine, belt or chain drive
for highway use.
any ideas or problems seen?
thanks
jim
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I saw a booth at EVS20 by a chinese company that had a
zinc battery on a bicycle. The one battery was about
the size of a large car battery, it had preformed zinc
plates that hung in the tank of the battery. By the
end of it's use the zinc plates where nothing but mush
oat the bottom of the tank. They said you just needed
to add new plates to continue. No one in the booth had
a good command of english so I'm not certain I got the
whole story. I'm sure the mush would have to go to
some sort of smelter to be used again as there was
nothing left of the plates for the zinc to plate back
onto. they had a range of like a hundred miles on the
bicycle. but it seemed more of a sidenote than a
practical technology...
Gadget
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Has anyone on the list worked for any of the Zinc
> Air people? If you can
> explain the refueling process I'd sure like to know
> if it is indeed a big
> electrolisis machine or a smelter like Rich says.
> If it is electrolisis one
> of Rudmans Charger would be a great back end for the
> electrodes. Who knows
> for sure? World wide there are a few fleets in
> service. Israel, Germany,,,
> where else? Lawrence Rhodes.....
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
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Weird. I was just thinking about a pusher trailer for the Prizm just
now. I'd love to extend the range, but the only options seem to be
pusher or batteries. Due to the nature of the beast, my car requires
20kw to drive down the highway at 65 mph. Thus anything smaller won't
work and a 20kw generator at 300 volts DC is a bit on the big side.
Chris
Jim Lockwood wrote:
application... add a pusher trailer to a small ev pickup weight of approx.
2700 lbs, need to add another 60 miles to distance
traveled...using a wisconsin air cooled 65 h.p. engine, belt or chain drive
for highway use.
any ideas or problems seen?
thanks
jim
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At 10:50 AM 1/31/2005, you wrote:
Weird. I was just thinking about a pusher trailer for the Prizm just now.
I'd love to extend the range, but the only options seem to be pusher or
batteries. Due to the nature of the beast, my car requires 20kw to drive
down the highway at 65 mph. Thus anything smaller won't work and a 20kw
generator at 300 volts DC is a bit on the big side.
Actually, something smaller WILL work. A 10KW generator would double your
existing range.
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Anyone know if you can pick up the NiMH cells/batteries from the Prius
a la carte?
-Frank
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