EV Digest 4086
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: OT Zap smart cars
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A Drinking Problem
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Patents (was: 42-volt starting batteries)
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Patents (was: 42-volt starting batteries)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Charging, watering Nicads, Re: A Drinking Problem
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: OT Zap smart cars
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re:Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) OT Re: Patents
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The seller has made a number of basic ebay mistakes (from my ebay
experience/opinions):
high starting price,
(a low starting price gets more people to bid on your auction...
more bids means more views, more views leads to more bidders (a lot of
people ignore auctions with no activity assuming other sellers know
something is wrong with the product or it is overpriced.) Starting an
auction low does not necessarily mean it will end low.
reserve price
Reserve price auctions are always a bummer.. why bid if you have no
idea if you're going to win. In combination with the above, if you're
the only one bidding there is no opportunity to drive the price above
the reserve price. Never set _both_ a high start price and a reserve
price, either one alone can prevent the item for selling for less than
your minimum.
no comparison to retail
Victor does not post the complete price for the drives. (I assume this
is because exchange rates are always changing and he buys the drives
from a European supplier) Without an easy comparison its hard for a
bidder to get excited about how much money they are likely to save.
selling items seperately
The buyer is unlikely to have the inverter and need the motor or
vise versa.. and the seller doesn't want to get stuck with one item and
sell the other (I assume). Seperately the buyer will worry that they
will end up with only half the parts needed to build a working system.
Working/tested items sell for a higher value. Selling items together
may also reduce your listing fees.
small market
Really there are only a few people activity seeking conversion parts
at any one time in the country. To bid on an auction they will need to
have cash in hand. If they have the cash they are likely saving it for
a later day... (if the buyer needs the parts quickly they would have
already purchased them). So you're trying to convince someone to make
an impulse purchase, either buying parts they do not need, or parts they
do not need today. Typically on ebay only rarity or low price can get
people to buy on impulse (and the siemens drives are not yet rare
AFAIK). The more costly an item and the smaller the market the less
likely you are to get a good price for it on ebay.
Ebay is great for getting rid of things fast (often for less than they
are worth).. rare items with a fuzzy value, or for items where you can
sell for less than retail and still amke a profit. If you want to get
maximum dollar for your EV part you should probably sell thru the
trading post.
Mark
Paul Wallace wrote:
I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and controllers on Ebay
with about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid for both is in
the range of comparable DC motors and controllers. Granted, it is the
small motor and the non integrated controller, but they look ideal for
a small car conversion. I am suprised that no one is bidding yet. I
don't think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge Caravan
conversion, but I could be wrong.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
!DSPAM:420b917d12101320863674!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> Let's not forget the 42-volt system's biggest connection to
> the EV world that has already come and for the most part,
> gone from us...the TMF batteries. The thin metal film lead
> acid batteries that powered Maniac Mazda to scary 1/4 mile
> times, the small Inspira 12V modules, were prototypes
> designed for use in the 36V battery setup for the 42V system.
> The batteries were lightweight and very compact but able to
> supply HUGE cranking power. They were made for a limited
> time. I still have one on the shelf as a momento of the
> by-gone days, the period of EV drag racing where Bolder and
> Inspira TMF batteries brought us the 8 second Current
> Eliminator, the 9 second Killacycle, and the 11 second Maniac Mazda.
In terms of performance batteries it seems the best we've ever had, maybe
the best we're likely to have for some time, have been removed from our
grasp. Or have they?
I'm no expert, but I believe one of the principals of patents is that no one
can profit monetarily from someone else's patent, but anyone is free to use
a patented idea for their own use. Makes sense, you can hardly stop people
from doing so when each patent publishes detailed information on the ideas
it protects. Much of the info needed to make these batteries is available
in the patents. Has anyone looked them up?
This gets back to a question I've raised before. How hard is it to make a
battery? Any product has two main ingredients: what you do, and how you do
it. The "how" is probably not hard. The materials should be available, and
anything a hobbyist can't do should be easy to contract out. Even in small
quantities. Even thin film metal deposition. The "what" is more in the
realm of the electrochemists, but I'm thinking someone with an
electrochemical background could use the patents as a starting point and
come up with something racers and hobbyists would value.
As for making a profit and thereby violating the patent, perhaps one could
sell the components only and have the end user be the one to actually build
the battery. I've heard of EV clubs having cabling parties for someone's
new EV, why not have a cell-rolling party? This would also offer the
advantage of cell-level monitoring, balancing, maintenance and replacement.
Cell interconnects could be as beefy as you need.
It remains to be seen whether Lithium in its various developmental
incarnations will ever deliver the power density of lead. Or if it does,
whether it will ever become affordable. If performance EVs are ever going
to advance beyond Optimas and Orbitals, I think it might turn out that those
advances will have to come from the EVers themselves.
Is there anyone on the list with sufficient experience to comment
authoritatively on the viability of boutique batteries?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be me. I was thinking that after owning it for a bit and getting
over the warentee issues I would consider what it would take to make it
electric. They service it by dropping the engine from below so I am hopeing
with little real world information that this might make a conversion fairly
simple. Maybe even in my wildest dreams allow me to have two powerplants
and swap them? Could that be called a sequential hybrid :-)?
Unfortunatly I was just told that my car won't be delivered now until May
time frame (was March/April) so I have to wait a bit longer. Also I am
having trouble getting commetment on how I can get a maintenance manual.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: February 10, 2005 10:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: OT Zap smart cars
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James F. Jarrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: February 10, 2005 6:40 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: OT Zap smart cars
>
>
> I have a question for listers, and we can take it off list if
> needs be.
>
> Ever since the announcement that the Smart Cars were going to
> be available in the US (first by Zap and later by Mercedes).
> I have been chewing on my wife's ear to buy one. She likes
> the idea and we are likely going to buy one but I have one
> concern, how much do they cost?
>
> Go do Zap's web site and you'll see lots of great marketing
> hype (they are masters of this we all know) and several
> things like "Over 55 million dollars in advanced orders etc."
>
> I'm guessing they are taking all the people who, like me are
> on their mailing and "interested parties" lists and
> multiplying that by the cost of the car and getting their
> numbers. But nowhere on their website can I actually find a
> PRICE for one of the cars.
>
> I have e-mailed them twice asking them what the cost will be
> and each time I get a form letter saying how great the Smart
> Cars are (I agree) but they always say something like "price
> to be determined once DOT approval yadda yaddda yadddddda."
>
> If they can't set a price yet, how can they say 55 million in
> advance orders.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy
> have to do to get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
James,
The Smart is already available in Canada, though only the diesel version
is offered. I wouldn't expect the US price to differ significantly.
If you go to the Smart Canada page, you can use the 'configurator' to
get an idea of price (in Canadian $), then convert to $US. FWIW, it
appears the base price is C$16,500 (US$13,300) or C$19,500 for the
'cabriolet' version. A member of our local EV group has one on order,
and as I recall it was up to about $18,000 (US$14,500) by the time he
added some options (such as the paddle shifter for the 6-speed
sequential tranny ;^).
<http://www.smart.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/mpc-ca-content-Site/
en_CA/-/-/SVCPresentationPipeline-Start?Page=issite://smart-Site/smart.c
om/RootFolder/smart/home.page>
>From what I understand, these vehicles are built such that the entire
powertrain drops out easily as a unit for servicing, which should make
it relatively easy to drop the diesel unit and replace it with an
electric one, even though you can't buy an EV version from the factory.
In theory anyway ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
are you charging those nicads separately from the lead acid cells? The
charging protocall is completely different. I you charge them in series
with the lead acid batteries, you are probably under charging them as
they want to go to a very high voltage, depending on temperature, at the
end of charge. At the end of charge, the blocks will be at close to
9vdc each in cold weather. My STM5-180 batteries, 24 total, use about 3
gallons of water every 250ah of over charge. For me, this is about
every 3 weeks. You must put back 20% more than you took out in terms of
amp hours for each charge cycle. You must keep careful track of the
overcharge amp hours so that you know when to water. You must water at
exactly the correct time, 30 to 45 minutes after the end of charge. Any
other time and you will over water. If you over water, then the next
charge cycle will push electrolyte out of the cells, very bad. The
watering system is set up to close each cell and allow water to move to
the next without displacing electrolyte from the cells. I can't see the
sides of my cells either, but I haven't noticed any problems with the
watering or unusual battery pack behavior over the years.
For the one cell that isn't filling properly, you might try removing the
cap and running water through it to see if you can clear any
obstructions. I haven't done this, but maybe Rod Hower has. You can
get new caps from SAFT.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm no expert, but I believe one of the principals of patents is that
no one
can profit monetarily from someone else's patent, but anyone is free
to use
a patented idea for their own use.
Actually that's not quite right. From:
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/utility/utility.htm:
[A patent] gives the patent holder the right, for a limited time, to
exclude others from making, using, offering to sell, selling, or
importing into the United States the subject matter that is within the
scope of protection granted by the patent.
IOW, it's a license to sue someone for using your idea. In practical
terms, you're unlikely to get sued for rolling your own in quantities
of 1 or 2, especially if you don't really profit from it (in any case,
it would be difficult to show damages for something like this). I doubt
that guy who built his own Segway-style vehicle is going to get sued
for it. I'm optimistic that I won't get sued for building my own
electronically-controlled electric skateboard (also covered by a
patent).
HTH,
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:58:14 -0800, Electro Automotive
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are we talking about standard gas Smarts here, or electrics? Because the
> last I heard, Zap had (or was getting) the gas ones, but was still trying
> to figure out how to convert them to electric.
Yeah, someone with a Zap email address sent a message to a less busy
EV yahoo group I'm on, offering payment for someone to take Li-ion
batteries and a Smart and cobble them together. This was only a few
months ago.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark, do you have a link? I cannot find it.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: February 10, 2005 12:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
The seller has made a number of basic ebay mistakes (from my ebay
experience/opinions):
high starting price,
(a low starting price gets more people to bid on your auction...
more bids means more views, more views leads to more bidders (a lot of
people ignore auctions with no activity assuming other sellers know
something is wrong with the product or it is overpriced.) Starting an
auction low does not necessarily mean it will end low.
reserve price
Reserve price auctions are always a bummer.. why bid if you have no idea
if you're going to win. In combination with the above, if you're the only
one bidding there is no opportunity to drive the price above the reserve
price. Never set _both_ a high start price and a reserve price, either one
alone can prevent the item for selling for less than your minimum.
no comparison to retail
Victor does not post the complete price for the drives. (I assume this is
because exchange rates are always changing and he buys the drives from a
European supplier) Without an easy comparison its hard for a bidder to get
excited about how much money they are likely to save.
selling items seperately
The buyer is unlikely to have the inverter and need the motor or vise
versa.. and the seller doesn't want to get stuck with one item and sell the
other (I assume). Seperately the buyer will worry that they will end up
with only half the parts needed to build a working system.
Working/tested items sell for a higher value. Selling items together may
also reduce your listing fees.
small market
Really there are only a few people activity seeking conversion parts at
any one time in the country. To bid on an auction they will need to have
cash in hand. If they have the cash they are likely saving it for a later
day... (if the buyer needs the parts quickly they would have already
purchased them). So you're trying to convince someone to make an impulse
purchase, either buying parts they do not need, or parts they do not need
today. Typically on ebay only rarity or low price can get people to buy on
impulse (and the siemens drives are not yet rare AFAIK). The more costly an
item and the smaller the market the less likely you are to get a good price
for it on ebay.
Ebay is great for getting rid of things fast (often for less than they are
worth).. rare items with a fuzzy value, or for items where you can sell for
less than retail and still amke a profit. If you want to get maximum dollar
for your EV part you should probably sell thru the trading post.
Mark
Paul Wallace wrote:
> I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and controllers on Ebay
> with about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid for both is in
> the range of comparable DC motors and controllers. Granted, it is the
> small motor and the non integrated controller, but they look ideal for
> a small car conversion. I am suprised that no one is bidding yet. I
> don't think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge Caravan
> conversion, but I could be wrong.
>
> Paul Wallace
> '91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
>
>
> !DSPAM:420b917d12101320863674!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reserve price auctions are always a bummer.. why bid if you have no
idea if you're going to win. In combination with the above, if you're the
only one bidding there is no opportunity to drive the price above the
reserve price.
I've heard this said often, but it's simply not true. If you enter a maximum
bid above the reserve price, the price will jump to the reserve price,
simple as that.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IOW, it's a license to sue someone for using your idea. In practical
terms, you're unlikely to get sued for rolling your own in
quantities of 1 or 2, especially if you don't really profit from it
(in any case, it would be difficult to show damages for something
like this). I doubt that guy who built his own Segway-style vehicle
is going to get sued for it. I'm optimistic that I won't get sued
for building my own electronically-controlled electric skateboard
(also covered by a patent).
If either of you reverse-engineered a solution that functions in a
demonstrably different manner than the patent, it wouldn't matter if
you sold them or not. You would (theoretically) be in the clear, as
you are only solving the same problem, not solving it the same way.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul and All,
--- Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark,
> are you charging those nicads separately from the
> lead acid cells? The
> charging protocall is completely different. I you
> charge them in series
> with the lead acid batteries, you are probably under
> charging them as
> they want to go to a very high voltage, depending on
> temperature, at the
> end of charge. At the end of charge, the blocks
> will be at close to
> 9vdc each in cold weather. My STM5-180 batteries, 24
> total, use about 3
> gallons of water every 250ah of over charge. For
> me, this is about
> every 3 weeks. You must put back 20% more than you
> took out in terms of
> amp hours for each charge cycle. You must keep
This seems and awful lot of both water and
charge.
I only charge about 10% extra and that only every
3rd or so time as I don't alway fully charge my SAFT's
14amphrs.
I charge to about 1.65vdc/cell and the lowest cell
to at least 1.6vdc for equalizing.
I thought 10% overcharge was what SAFT recommends?
One of the main advantages of Nicads is the fact
it doesn't matter if you don't completely charge them,
leave them discharged, it's no big deal and I do this
often only charging every 4 or 5 about 1 mile trips or
days to the store for newspapers, food shopping. This
can save much watering.
I've been doing this for 5 yrs and no problems
yet with 30yr old batts!!! I only water then every
month or 2.
I use about 30amps and charge at about 15 on
14amphr batts.
Of course this nasty flu I've had for the last 10
days isn't helping those morning trips much,
HTH's,
jerry dycus
> careful track of the
> overcharge amp hours so that you know when to water.
> You must water at
> exactly the correct time, 30 to 45 minutes after the
> end of charge. Any
> other time and you will over water. If you over
> water, then the next
> charge cycle will push electrolyte out of the cells,
> very bad. The
> watering system is set up to close each cell and
> allow water to move to
> the next without displacing electrolyte from the
> cells. I can't see the
> sides of my cells either, but I haven't noticed any
> problems with the
> watering or unusual battery pack behavior over the
> years.
>
> For the one cell that isn't filling properly, you
> might try removing the
> cap and running water through it to see if you can
> clear any
> obstructions. I haven't done this, but maybe Rod
> Hower has. You can
> get new caps from SAFT.
>
> Paul Wallace
>
> '91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Don Cameron"
>do you have a link? I cannot find it.
Try this one:
http://motors.search.ebay.com/Siemens_W0QQfromZR8QQsamcmZ6000QQsaspiZ2
If it doesn't work, search for item # 4525630976 and
4525638887 on here: http://www.motors.ebay.com/ .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
Did you by any chance actually get quoted a price?
I'd love to get one come may if I could get a hard answer on what it
will cost me.
James
On Thu, 2005-02-10 at 14:54, Harris, Lawrence wrote:
> That would be me. I was thinking that after owning it for a bit and getting
> over the warentee issues I would consider what it would take to make it
> electric. They service it by dropping the engine from below so I am hopeing
> with little real world information that this might make a conversion fairly
> simple. Maybe even in my wildest dreams allow me to have two powerplants
> and swap them? Could that be called a sequential hybrid :-)?
>
> Unfortunatly I was just told that my car won't be delivered now until May
> time frame (was March/April) so I have to wait a bit longer. Also I am
> having trouble getting commetment on how I can get a maintenance manual.
>
> Lawrence
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: February 10, 2005 10:15 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: OT Zap smart cars
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James F. Jarrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: February 10, 2005 6:40 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: OT Zap smart cars
> >
> >
> > I have a question for listers, and we can take it off list if
> > needs be.
> >
> > Ever since the announcement that the Smart Cars were going to
> > be available in the US (first by Zap and later by Mercedes).
> > I have been chewing on my wife's ear to buy one. She likes
> > the idea and we are likely going to buy one but I have one
> > concern, how much do they cost?
> >
> > Go do Zap's web site and you'll see lots of great marketing
> > hype (they are masters of this we all know) and several
> > things like "Over 55 million dollars in advanced orders etc."
> >
> > I'm guessing they are taking all the people who, like me are
> > on their mailing and "interested parties" lists and
> > multiplying that by the cost of the car and getting their
> > numbers. But nowhere on their website can I actually find a
> > PRICE for one of the cars.
> >
> > I have e-mailed them twice asking them what the cost will be
> > and each time I get a form letter saying how great the Smart
> > Cars are (I agree) but they always say something like "price
> > to be determined once DOT approval yadda yaddda yadddddda."
> >
> > If they can't set a price yet, how can they say 55 million in
> > advance orders.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I still want one, but what does a guy
> > have to do to get a [EMAIL PROTECTED]&*( price?
>
> James,
>
> The Smart is already available in Canada, though only the diesel version
> is offered. I wouldn't expect the US price to differ significantly.
>
> If you go to the Smart Canada page, you can use the 'configurator' to
> get an idea of price (in Canadian $), then convert to $US. FWIW, it
> appears the base price is C$16,500 (US$13,300) or C$19,500 for the
> 'cabriolet' version. A member of our local EV group has one on order,
> and as I recall it was up to about $18,000 (US$14,500) by the time he
> added some options (such as the paddle shifter for the 6-speed
> sequential tranny ;^).
>
> <http://www.smart.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/mpc-ca-content-Site/
> en_CA/-/-/SVCPresentationPipeline-Start?Page=issite://smart-Site/smart.c
> om/RootFolder/smart/home.page>
>
> >From what I understand, these vehicles are built such that the entire
> powertrain drops out easily as a unit for servicing, which should make
> it relatively easy to drop the diesel unit and replace it with an
> electric one, even though you can't buy an EV version from the factory.
> In theory anyway ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Mark, do you have a link? I cannot find it.
Motor:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4525630976
Inverter:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4525638887
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul Compton wrote:
Reserve price auctions are always a bummer.. why bid if you have
no idea if you're going to win. In combination with the above, if
you're the only one bidding there is no opportunity to drive the
price above the reserve price.
I've heard this said often, but it's simply not true. If you enter a
maximum bid above the reserve price, the price will jump to the
reserve price, simple as that.
You are correct.. the first time someone enters a bid with the bid price
above the reserve the bid will automatically jump to the reserve price.
The correct behavior on ebay is to bid the maximum you're willing to pay
and be done with it. However, most bidders do not completely grasp the
proxy system (or at least don't bid like they do). Most bids are only a
few bid increments above the current highest bid and buyers experiment
with higher bids after rexamining other bidders activities. The more
likely a bidder feels their chances are to "save a bundle", the more
likely they'll actually bid.
In studies of ebay auctions the existence of a reserve price generally
resulted in a lower final offer, and a much higher rate of auctions that
closed with no bids at all. Its hard to explain, and not at all
logical, but most bidders do not want to enter their highest bid right
away, and a "reserve not met" message is a strong damper on bidding.
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
Inverter:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4525638887
Hm. Would an inverter like this function as a drop-in replacement for
say a Dolphin based auto? What makes AC motors unique so to speak, or
are they the same from the controller's point of view like an 8 or 9
inch or 11 inch Warp would be to a Zilla?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
You must be bored since you want to argue this point.....
I do like the I 2t rating concept.. it's worth keeping in mind and reporting
as a figure of merit for Drag racing only bench mark tests.
It's pretty clear we took the Orbs close thier limit, but not over it. It's
a bench mark. There were points under the battery studs that were over 150
F... or
getting hot enough to worry about blowing a interconnect.
I have been warned that the quality may suffer with newer Lots and
designs. We have not seen that yet. Let hope we don't.
There is another Data point that you have not mentioned as a published bench
mark... and it's the short circuit rating. I don't have it, and I am not
sure who would.
But SCircuit numbers are a place you don't want to go for very long. How
long would be a nice number to have locked into a Real Data file.
I have not tried to blow up a Orbital!!! Nor have I actually succeded.
You send me a pallet and instruction on destructive testing.. and I will be
glad to make it happen.
Most of us can't draw even 1000 amp for very long in a real EV, you just run
out of road or Guts first.
Even Wayland has to work in getting the batteries to be pulled hard from
one end of the track to the other. With as much abuse as we did to Gone
Postal Nobody ever saw more than 1000 battery amps. Even the motor amps just
flicked up to the 1800 to 2000 amp range briefly. We tried to get up there,
but things broke first and fast!
So... when you draw 1000 amps from a 16 lbs battery... a Hawker or a SVR or
a Baby Yellow top, of course you are going to blow it up. Asking for the
same amps from a 40 lbs Orb that can dishout almost 2k amps.. well the
battery is not the limit... somthing else is. And this is why you can get
consistant runs.
Racing on a white sheet of paper...says you can make a LOT lighter pack,
at higher voltages say....360... and have the controler hand you 2000 motor
amps while the battery is only being loaded down with a 500 amp load. This
is how you get the most power for the least weight in batteries. BUT...at a
cost.
Bikes and all out racers take this chance.
Roger... it LOOKs like we can ask for 1800 amps from most XCD34s, I didn't
say I tested the whole lot!!
If you doubt me, You run the tests on your cashflow.
This is also getting to be last years battery data, not this years...
There are some new batteries being raced out there...... Any
Comments......Bill Dube???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Oh Spec says 1100 for 5 seconds.. Oh I wouldn't want
> > to draw more than a Spec sheet allows for Now would I???
>
> You ~never~ do that do you? And you would never put more than rated
> amps through your motors either, right? ;^>
>
> All I'm saying is that if the manufacturer is only rating them to 1100A
> for 5s there is probably a reason for it. It could be that most of the
> present production will easily exceed that level, but some won't because
> the only 'guarantee' is that they will survive 1100A for 5s. Or, it
> could mean that present production easily exceeds that spec, but future
> production will be cost-reduced to just exceed the spec with a more
> modest margin as the production process is fine-tuned. Or, it could be
> that while the batteries will easily exceed this spec, doing so causes
> some irreversible damage to the battery that shortens its life, etc.
>
> I would think that *relying* on these batteries to reliably survive
> close to 2x the max rated current for 2x the max rated duration is
> hardly consistent with your 'slow and steady....gets ya there without a
> lot of carnage' logic.
>
> Fuses (and cell interconnects?) are rated in terms of I^2*t. 1850A for
> 10s is 5.7x the I^2t rating corresponding to the rated 1100A for 5s.
> 2000A for 10s is 6.6x the rated I^2t. This doesn't really seem
> significantly different than a smaller "super highly stressed" high
> voltage pack if you're looking for dozens of runs with boring
> reliabilities.
>
> Out of curiousity, how many Orbs have you held at 1850A until they
> failed? How about 2000A? Do they start failing at 11s, 12s, or 10.5s?
> How many have you tested to 1850A for 10s in order to be able to
> conclude that *any* 34XCD ought to make this much after a few break in
> cycles? (I'm not picking on you here, just trying to make the point that
> you may not know just how close to the edge you are pushing these
> batteries, and that you may not have tested a large enough sample to be
> able to make generalisations for the entire 34XCD production.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My thoughts exactly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 1:08 PM
Subject: Re:Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
> Ro
> Then they "give" the batteries to people like Plasma Boy and Madman and
> Wildeman. Who then write great things about how these batteries outperform
> the factory specs. It's kind of like the factory saying they will do 2000
> amps for 10 seconds, without actually saying it. Free advertising with no
> financial risk.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hurley wrote:
If either of you reverse-engineered a solution that functions in a
demonstrably different manner than the patent, it wouldn't matter if
you sold them or not. You would (theoretically) be in the clear, as
you are only solving the same problem, not solving it the same way.
Patents used to be about protecting the rights to a specific solution to
a specific problem. Lately rather than being a great equalizer patents
have become a weird land grab. Poeple are writing incomprehensible,
nonspecific and overly broad patents. Once the overworked patent office
grants these patents the new patent owner has open season to find new
areas to apply the patent to and demand payment. You set your own
price, and as long as its less than the high cost of litigation you'll
probably get paid by the victim.
Its easy to say "I invented new box shaped mouse trap that with a door
and a trigger mechinism to catch mice"
but today the patent would be granted for a "enclosed space to constrain
living creatures", and would be used to sue companies that build dog
kennels, ticket lines, aluminum siding, etc.
Once patents prevented others from stealing your ideas, now they can be
used to steel (or demand payment for) other peoples ideas.
Mark Farver
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--- Begin Message ---
This is a pretty good deal if purchased at the reserve price. It would be
about 1/2 - 2/3 the cost of new. This motor was recommended for the New
Beetle project so small to midsize cars it would work very well.
The key to bidding on eBay is to bid in the last 3 seconds, with the maximum
amount you would want to pay. The eBay proxy program will take car of the
rest. Another option is to use snipe software which does basically the same
thing, but in the last 0.5 seconds of an auction.
Although I don't condone this activity...
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: February 10, 2005 2:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
Paul Compton wrote:
>> Reserve price auctions are always a bummer.. why bid if you have
>> no idea if you're going to win. In combination with the above, if
>> you're the only one bidding there is no opportunity to drive the
>> price above the reserve price.
>
>
> I've heard this said often, but it's simply not true. If you enter a
> maximum bid above the reserve price, the price will jump to the
> reserve price, simple as that.
>
You are correct.. the first time someone enters a bid with the bid price
above the reserve the bid will automatically jump to the reserve price.
The correct behavior on ebay is to bid the maximum you're willing to pay and
be done with it. However, most bidders do not completely grasp the proxy
system (or at least don't bid like they do). Most bids are only a few bid
increments above the current highest bid and buyers experiment with higher
bids after rexamining other bidders activities. The more likely a bidder
feels their chances are to "save a bundle", the more likely they'll actually
bid.
In studies of ebay auctions the existence of a reserve price generally
resulted in a lower final offer, and a much higher rate of auctions that
closed with no bids at all. Its hard to explain, and not at all logical,
but most bidders do not want to enter their highest bid right away, and a
"reserve not met" message is a strong damper on bidding.
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
If Zap are still trying to figure how to "electrify"
Smarts, they should go talk to Zytek.
They did it years ago ( I saw their demonstrator at
EVS17 in Montreal, the first time I sat in a Smart car )
Apparently an electric version is now for sale, with the
Zebra battery system....
I **wish** my Smart was electric.... then it wouldn't
have the annoying turbo lag, and would be ultra-cool...
...even though it gives me a genuine 45 mpg at 70 mph,
I still wish it was electric...
But I'm not sure if **converting** a Smart would be at all
easy - the car's electronics are highly complex, and
CAN-based. Even the "gearstick" that commands the computer
to shift gears is CAN. The most challenging bit would be
the braking system. Smarts are very, very short wheelbase,
which makes for interesting handling!
Maybe one day I'll convert one - but I need to finish
paying for this one first ;-)
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
P.S. my shiny green PFC30 arrived safely from
Rich Rudman yesterday! Customs didn't impound it...
(CE directive doesn't apply to automotive parts anyway!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:34:41 +0000, Richard Bebbington
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If Zap are still trying to figure how to "electrify"
> Smarts, they should go talk to Zytek.
> They did it years ago ( I saw their demonstrator at
> EVS17 in Montreal, the first time I sat in a Smart car )
> Apparently an electric version is now for sale, with the
> Zebra battery system....
That'll be this one.. http://tinyurl.com/5nj8m
Seats : 2
Emissions : CO2/km 0-10
Propulsion type : electric
Number of wheels : 4
Speed : 120 km/h
Consumption : 15.00 kWh/100 km
0-10g/km? That's a bit better than the Diesel one, isn't it Emil? :)
(so I guess Switzerland has all hydro power or something)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:28 PM 2/10/2005, you wrote:
This is a pretty good deal if purchased at the reserve price. It would be
about 1/2 - 2/3 the cost of new. This motor was recommended for the New
Beetle project so small to midsize cars it would work very well.
How can you determine the reserve price without actually bidding?
i.e. how do you know what it is?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, an entire section of my web page just copied and pasted on ebay.
I don't mind, but not even sure if it is legal to do it,
the site stating that it is copyrighted...
No, this motor will not work well in Caravan - too little thermal
reserve, despite water cooling. But inverter will since the same
one used with 45kW rated motors (The one Carl is selling is 18 kW rated).
Victor
Paul Wallace wrote:
I see one of the Metricmind Siemens motors and controllers on Ebay with
about 1.5 days left and no bids. The opening bid for both is in the
range of comparable DC motors and controllers. Granted, it is the small
motor and the non integrated controller, but they look ideal for a small
car conversion. I am suprised that no one is bidding yet. I don't
think the motor has enough torque for a Dodge Caravan conversion, but I
could be wrong.
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You must be bored since you want to argue this point.....
Not really; I just didn't expect there to be an argument. My intent was
to caution EVers that it may be risky to run out and buy a bunch of
Orbitals and count on them to reliably deliver several times what the
*manufacturer* rates them for based on incomplete tests of a few
samples.
> I do like the I 2t rating concept.. it's worth keeping in
> mind and reporting as a figure of merit for Drag racing only
> bench mark tests. It's pretty clear we took the Orbs close
> thier limit, but not over it.
Right; you know you were close to the limit, but until you actually push
the battery over the edge you don't really know how close you were. It
would be useful to know how many amps they will deliver for 20s (since
the vast majority of car running 40lb batteries are in the 14-18s range
rather than 10-12s) without blowing, and then run some tests to see what
they will survive for say 15s, 10s, and 5s.
No, I don't have a pallet of Orbs to send you for testing, and I realise
you aren't made of money any more than I am. ;^>
> I have been warned that the quality may suffer with newer
> Lots and designs. We have not seen that yet. Let hope we
> don't.
Agreed. I just fear that the initial production may have been
overbuilt/over-designed, and once the Orbital has established itself in
the marketplace it will be cost-reduced to have a smaller, but still
adequate, safety margin.
> There is another Data point that you have not
> mentioned as a published bench mark... and it's the short
> circuit rating. I don't have it, and I am not sure who would.
> Most of us can't draw even 1000 amp for very long in a real
> EV, you just run out of road or Guts first.
>
> Even Wayland has to work in getting the batteries to be
> pulled hard from one end of the track to the other. With as
> much abuse as we did to Gone Postal Nobody ever saw more than
> 1000 battery amps. Even the motor amps just flicked up to the
> 1800 to 2000 amp range briefly. We tried to get up there,
> but things broke first and fast!
>
> So... when you draw 1000 amps from a 16 lbs battery... a
> Hawker or a SVR or a Baby Yellow top, of course you are going
> to blow it up. Asking for the same amps from a 40 lbs Orb
> that can dishout almost 2k amps.. well the battery is not the
> limit... somthing else is. And this is why you can get
> consistant runs.
OK; short circuit ratings *are* available for Hawker Genesis batteries
(1400A for the G13, 1600A for the G16, and 2400A for the 22.3lb G26).
As I recall, John told me that the G13 (or was it G16?) interconnects
fail at 750A for something like 10s (this data may have originated with
Dennis Berube).
This certainly suggests that if even the hottest racers can't pull more
than about 1000 battery amps, then they could almost certainly boost
their performance with a same voltage string of 22lb G26s than 40lb
Orbitals, since the G26 interconnects ~ought~ to be good for a fair bit
more than those of the little G13/G16s. Yeah, it would be nice to have
tests confirming this too.
> Roger... it LOOKs like we can ask for 1800 amps from most
> XCD34s, I didn't say I tested the whole lot!! If you doubt
> me, You run the tests on your cashflow.
I don't doubt your test results, I just caution against extrapolating
from tests on a few samples to predict the performance of the entire
production. The samples you tested certainly did what you report, but
that doesn't mean that every battery on the pallet I buy next month
will.
Until I build a drag racer, it really doesn't matter to me personally if
every Orbital can survive 1850A for 10s, but if/when I do build a drag
race vehicle I will run my own tests on whatever batteries I plan to
use.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
