EV Digest 4097
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: building your own batteries
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hopper cars
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Red Beastie specs
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Honda, Nissan join suit against CA
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 500A battery load tester
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Does Such an Electric Vehicle Exist?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Hydraulic eff.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: gmail - EVDL
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV snow blowers?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Hydraulic eff.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hydraulic eff.
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Honda, Nissan join suit against CA
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AC Motors and Reverse and the Dragstrip
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Watering BB600's.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) More water dreams...
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Small Prestolite Pump Motor and over voltage questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Watering BB600's. and TEVan watering
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Battery resting voltage...
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Seth Allen wrote:
Yes. But you may want at least two speeds forward anyways, as an
AC motor with a single speed cannot emulate the flexibility of a
multispeed transmission. It can get fairly close, but the tradeoff
is needing a higher current rated inverter. Which is expensive.
Seth brings up a good point. It's not the motor; it's the *controller*
that is responsible for the wide power band of some AC drives.
No controller can fix inherent shortcoming of a DC motors
unable to run at high (compare to AC motors) RPM due
to integrity of brush system.
The corresponding DC motor controller has the very same problem
delivering constant HP over a wide range. But, it only has *one* big
transistor and diode. Guess which one will be cheaper for a given power
level?
In general you are right, but we discussed this quite a few
times: power stage device cost is small fraction of overall
controller cost.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Nonsense. The fact that none of the EV drag racers has yet been
desperate enough for a high power battery to try building their own in
no way proves that it is infeasible to build a lead acid battery in
one's garage. There are any number of things that I *could* build in my
garage but haven't; the fact that I haven't attempted to build something
does not indicate/prove that I am incapable of doing so.
This is academic discussion Roger, it is not "proof" like
a+b=c in math. This is opinion and common practice.
Of course, it *is* feasible* to build your own battery in
your garage. But there are *good* reasons why (most,
normal, non_specificly_drag_racing, ______ fill your own here)
people don't do it.
By your (and Peter's) logic, before the first guy converted an EV in his
garage, that was impossible/infeasible too.
No. Other than for fun, people build EVs because can't buy them.
You CAN buy batteries; better or worse, quite suitable for
an EV as they are today, they *are* available and as good as your
pocket book allows.
If one wants to built one, as Lee pointed out it must excel
in one or few parameters compare to existing ones, or
be cheaper. Else, it is only educational exercise.
What's *your* excuse for not doing it?
I don't have an EV capable of utilising more current than I can get from
readily available batteries such as Hawkers, Optimas and Orbitals.
I accept that, but reasonably *sure* that if you would have it,
you'd search first if you can buy such a battery rather than built one.
Get serious.
I am absolutely serious Victor.
It is quite feasible to build a lead acid battery in one's garage, and a
clean room environment is not necessary. Period. You think it is a
silly idea, and that is fair enough, but that does not make it
impossible. Nor does the fact that no-one on this list has yet been
motivated to try building their own battery make it impossible.
Actually we did not discuss specifically lead acid batteries,
which require least sophisticated equipment/environment to make.
Assuming, of course, that everything that has not yet been attempted is
not automatically subject to the Tikhonov Impossibiltiy Rule ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
C'mon Roger. If you are serious, you must agree that suggestion
top build own batteries is in principle no different from
suggestion to build, say, own ultracapacitors. Given enoug
motivationj either *can* be done, I never argued this point.
Reason people normally don't, they can get them ready made *practically*
good enough for application (again drag race specifics aside),
so for me, say, to justify building ultracaps would be:
- I absolutely must have them but they don't exist or unavailable
or cost can't be justified;
- I can make them just as good as OEM but cheaper (provided my
time worth nothing),
- I can improve some critical to me parameter which is not offered
by any manufacturer, and I can't leave without *that* improvement.
IT happen that OEM product has what I need, and there are no
reasonable limitations. Granted, we always want everything
lighter, smaller, better, and cheaper, but *unlikely* you can
ecxecute the task in your garage and hit all four.
Same about batteries. Try to built NiCd or LiIon cell, it sure
*can* be done. You don't because can't take advantage ofd the
power they provide, fine, but many people could, but still
don't built them. As I see it , it is just *impractical*,
which is not to say *impossible*.
EVs are different story, you can't buy any kind, period.
So people have no choice if they want EV. I'm sure if EVs would
be sold everywhere, there would ne less conversions around.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it doesn't, and you're right. If someone puts together a
complete kit up to last bolt and a K-mart furniture "some assembly
required" type boolket telling you where each bolt goes,
so a 6-grader can proudly assemble it, yes, you are *not*
building an EV. There is no creativity on your part, no design
fun. You are just assembling result of someone else's creativity.
Nothing wrong with that, all depends on what your objectives are.
Just like assembled furniture, you wouldn't say you *build* it,
would you?
Victor
Paul G. wrote:
Victor wrote:
If someone builds battery parts for you and you bolt them
together, you are not building a battery.
If someone builds parts of your ACRX and you just bolt them to an old CRX,
you are not building an EV :-)
Suddenly sounds silly, doesn't it?
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't been following the thread but has anyone mentioned the 1922
battery rebuild manual? I think someone mentioned on this list a few months
back.
http://www.green-trust.org/2003/battery_1922_WITTE/battery_WITTE.htm#toc
There is also a 8mb zip you can download with everything. It's an
interesting and informative read.
Dave
>
> I did not see that in the 1950's, I saw it in the early eighties in chile,
> there are still battery factories here that use black cases, and
> are open on
> the top, so you order your batt, the guy adds the right amount of
> plates to
> it, and then they seal the top of it with something like tar,
> then they add
> the acid and they "activate it" by doing smethig at the posts, I
> don't know
> exactly what they do, These mini factories still run in latin
> America, they
> make custom 24 volt batteries for buses and trucks, could not find pics of
> them, but they are just like the old 1950's batteries, all tar on top, and
> lead zinc inside (I guess).
>
> ivo.
>
> Was anyone on this list around in the 1950's or earlier?
> Someone once told me that in the 1950's if you went into an
> auto parts store to buy a new battery, the battery case was
> dry, and they had to fill it with acid and then "jump start"
> the battery to get it to be able to take an initial charge.
> Anyone remember this or know more details about it?
>
> Also either during that time, or the during decades before,
> there were these ~1 foot square glass containers used for
> radios (out in the country where their weren't any power
> lines yet, seems like a windmill was used to charge the
> battery). Apparently, it had some sort of lid and plates
> and you filled them with acid. Anyone ever seen one of
> these? Any pics? I've seen the glass containers before,
> but not the rest of the components.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Everthing I seen being done for competition out here in California is
with a nitrogen bottle ,expansion tank and air bags. Some vehcles are
trailered to the site and don't even have a motor in them. Some use
remote tanks and a nitrogen hose to the vehicle.
I am afraid the revolution has already occured.
<shamefull plug>
If anyone on the list thinks airbags will help there EV suspension
woes, drop me a line. We make the "slam bags" where I work and they can
handle the added weight no problem.
I personally like the simplicity of springs and they are easier to
dampen. I have heard the slam bags are so stiff that they have a natural
dampening effect.
http://www.slamspecialties.com/
</shamefull plug>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clearly you want a PFC50 charger...It pulls a full 50 amps from 240 AC.
Just a little bit of Bias here.. but it's going to be the highest power full
range charger you can get for less than about 10Kbucks.
It's $3K. I just don't hace much compition in the power range
I would get that double shaft, just in case...You never know what you might
want to use it for.
The FB4001 aka good old AvDC 9 incher.. It can make the torque, but cooling
issues force you to use lots of RPM when you can. Lugging works but make way
too much heat and with no fan speed you
can't scrub the heat off. remember these motors have a continuous rating of
about 30 Hp. Running 500 amp into them for even 15 minutes can start to
hurt things. Doing 400 amps and 5000 rpm and you have few issues. Doing 600
amps and 2500 rpm and you will have a molten pile of copper and steel.
Since Raptors and T-Rexs are long dead, and the Auburns were killed off by
the Raps and Ts... your only solution is a Zilla.
Selecting the Zilla allows for a couple of other design angles that you
dont't get with the other controllers. One is you can use a 240 volt pack
and then program the controller to never let more than 120 out to the motor,
or anywhere in between. This lets you create a battery stack of just about
any voltage and regulate it back to where you can't fry your motor. This
also greatly reduces the current that flows out in the entire battery
string. In my opinion 120 volts is not enough to get your money's worth from
that 9 incher, you want 156 to 170 on it. This gets you enough volts to keep
it spinning at 6000 rpm but not enough to cause fireballs to erupt from the
brushes at every gear change. Clearly you need a pack with more volts than
your motor should see, and then you program the Zilla for what ever peak
motor voltage you need. The Zilla is water cooled, and has great thermal
extraction. It work well and with water that does not have to be ice cold.
I have driven the Red Beastie... I was impressed with 450 amps and air
cooling. 1000 amps and liquid cooling and a 240 volt single string should be
a nice package.
Leave it in the lowest gear you can to get the speed you want. It's that
simple. Let those internal fans earn thier keep.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:39 PM
Subject: Red Beastie specs
> John,
>
> Just the kind of EV I want
>
> I am in Tucson AZ, actually outside in 3 Points and so if I go into town,
> shopping, movie whatever, then it is about a 80-100 mile trip. Coming back
> to my place I have a slight incline, 1% for about 4 miles. The truck I am
> looking for can be anything, S-10, Ranger, Toyota... I plan to take the
bed
> out, lower the batteries as much as possible and put in a flat bed
(wooden?
> no sides, just stake holes) so that if I want I can put stuff on top.
>
> So John, you use the FB-4001, not the 4001A? Is the cost of the dual shaft
> not worth the potential of hooking something up to it? And 40 T-105's,
wow,
> 2,400 lbs, so obviously a set of HD springs. Have you ever considered
using
> L-16's? they are about the same in AH, but only 6 inches taller (420 AH at
> 20 hr rate, 11.5" x 7" x 16.75" and weight 121 lbs each, much heavier to
> move around....) so you save about 3 cu ft and that would mean only 1
string
> instead of 2 strings at 120 VDC. Does hooking up 2 strings mean more
> hardware? it means more cable/metal/lugs/crimping/$/etc. Also the
footprint
> of the batteries is much smaller, 20.5 sq ft for the 105's vs 11.35 sq ft
> for the L16's, 35% smaller.
>
> What about your controller? The description of the 'Beastie' says a
> DCP-1200, but one of the pictures shows a liquid-cooled Auburn Kodiak MPC
> controller. Here in AZ it gets pretty hot in the summer and under the hood
> even hotter, so I guess liquid cooled components are the best way to go if
> they don't drain too much power for the pumps. Or a Zilla?
>
> I also see that the battery connections are bus bar types. Is that a
better
> connector for the amps than a cable and lug? easier to make?
>
> Charger - at home I can use 240 so what is a good 120/240 charger?
>
> Also I still don't grasp the concept of not shifting, leaving it in 2nd
gear
> and letting the rpms do the work - on the highway, wouldn't it be better
to
> shift up to 3rd or even 4th or is it that the torque would not be enough
to
> sustain the speed? And I understand that it is possible to shift with out
> using the clutch?
>
> Anyway, all and any help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> > Midsized pickup, 9 inch series wound motor, 5 speed tranny, 40, T-105 6V
> > golf car
> > batteries @120V. A real 120 miles range under ideal conditions, 80 or so
> > under less than
> > ideal conditions, and able to tow 4000+ lbs. for 45 miles at 50-55 mph.
> >
> > See the EV photo Album and check out Red Beastie in the Toyota section:
> > See Ya......John Wayland
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Of course, it *is* feasible* to build your own battery in
> your garage. But there are *good* reasons why (most,
> normal, non_specificly_drag_racing, ______ fill your own
> here) people don't do it.
Yes, absolutely. For most of us the batteries we can buy off the shelf
are either sufficient for our needs, or they are deficient in ways that
cannot prctiacally be addressed by home construction (e.g. it would be
nice to be have lead-acid batteries with the energy density of lithium
batteries, but we can neither buy them nor realistically expect to build
one in our garage).
> If one wants to built one, as Lee pointed out it must excel
> in one or few parameters compare to existing ones, or
> be cheaper. Else, it is only educational exercise.
Right. My argument was really that for drag racing people specifically,
there is good reason to believe that one could build/modify a lead acid
battery to have superior current capability to anything commercially
available.
> > What's *your* excuse for not doing it?
> >
> > I don't have an EV capable of utilising more current than I can get
> > from readily available batteries such as Hawkers, Optimas and
> > Orbitals.
> >
> I accept that, but reasonably *sure* that if you would have
> it, you'd search first if you can buy such a battery rather
> than built one.
Yes, absolutely. I would never think of building my own unless I either
could not find a battery for sale that would do the job, or the cost of
a suitable battery made it unobtainable for me and I had good reason to
believe that I could build a comaparable battery at a more bearable
cost.
> Actually we did not discuss specifically lead acid batteries,
> which require least sophisticated equipment/environment to make.
Again, I thought the discussion had spun off from the drag racing
thread, which was concerning lead-acid batteries, and lead-acid
batteries presently dominate EV drag racing, so I assumed we were
specifically discussing home construction of lead acid batteries
tailored to the specific needs of EV drag racing.
> C'mon Roger. If you are serious, you must agree that
> suggestion top build own batteries is in principle no
> different from suggestion to build, say, own ultracapacitors.
> Given enoug motivationj either *can* be done, I never argued
> this point.
Yes, I agree. However, I thought you were in fact arguing that if it
were possible to build one's own batteries, then ~someone~ would already
be doing so, and therefore conversely that since we can't point to
anyone presently building their own batteries it must be impossible to
do so.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:55:21 -0800 (PST), Sherry Boschert
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Somehow I missed the news on Feb. 4 that Honda and
>Nissan have joined the suit by other automakers
>against California's clean-air laws.
>
>You can send a letter to Honda easily from the web
>site of the Union of Concerned Scientists:
>http://www.ucsaction.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=22412
Kewl, thanks for the URL. I sent it out on my mailing list which means
several hundred others will write letters similar to mine. So delicious
originating letters from there.
Here's my note:
Thank you for stepping away from your pseudo-econazi persona long enought
to help sue the state of California into some semblence of rationality
over the global warming fiction and other transportation balderdash.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
I'm new to EV, so excuse the ignorance, but why test the 'pack'? Don't you
really want to know which individual battery is bad?
thanks
Rush
Actually it isn't a load test, it is a capacity test. The simple load
testers may identify a battery that has trouble suppling peak power, but
usually cannot identify the batteries with reduced capacity. I have seen
batteries that load test fine but only have 10% of the original capacity.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> No controller can fix the inherent shortcoming of a DC motor's
> inability to run at high (compare to AC motors) RPM due to
> integrity of brush system.
Are you equating brushes with DC motors? In other words, if it has
brushes, is it by definition a DC motor? And if it doesn't, is it by
definition an AC motor?
What about brushless DC motors? Their rpm limits are no different than
brushless AC motors.
What about AC motors with brushes (slip rings)? They have the same rpm
limits as brushed DC motors.
I think it would be more correct to say that if a motor uses brushes,
then it has a lower max rpm limit (regardless of whether it is AC or
DC). Remember, brushes are basically just a mechanical inverter.
> power stage device cost is small fraction of overall controller cost.
Yes; for both AC and DC motor controllers. DC motor controllers are
still cheaper than AC motor controllers, whether you count just the
power stage, or include everything.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> Would isolating the transformer with rubber padding or similar material
> help? I assume it is vibrating against a solid metal object.
I suspect the noise is coming from a constant-voltage transformer in the
charger. This type of transformer drives the iron core into saturation.
The iron actually flexes and changes shape due to the tremendous force
in it. This flexing of the core causes the audible "buzz" you hear.
Of course, the buzz can be *substantially* worsened by poor mounting or
loose parts.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would really hope to have you select a PFC20B or PFC30 for the higher
performance levels available.
There is serious work being done on a liquid cooled PFC40 in a complete new
form factor.
We don't know how fast it will come into being, but it's going to be 5 by 7
by about 16 inches long.
Acouple can guess where it's going. List price single units are being
targeted for $2750. It's being designed to live with the cooling system
that a Zilla needs.
Early adopters would really help me get this thing into production.
It's going to be able to suck 40 amps of grid current,and I am not commiting
to how many amps it will source. But at least 40 in buck mode maybe a LOT
more.
gotta go over to the production shop... and see what we are building this
week.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
> John Wayland writes:
> >
> > Oh-oh .....the last thing I want to do, is offend fellow EVers,
especially
> > a good friend like Ralph.
>
> No offence taken! Thanks for the kind words. I hope my current rebuild
> lives up to the billing...
>
> Just to bring people up to date, the next version of the Prizm will have
> a 156v pack of 26 Optima Yellow Tops in buddy pairs, a Zilla Z1K
controller,
> a PFC-20 charger, a set of Mk2 Rudman Regulators with the regbus wired up
> between the regulators and charger, and heated/insulated battery boxes.
> Progress has been slow but steady.
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > That's a compliment that means a lot comming from someone who is a total
> > neat freak conserning his EV's. Ralph could you comment on how you are
> > charging your pack of NiCads with a PFC charger. Rich wouldn't sell me
one
> > to charge my NiCads saying the chances of a spectacular battery launch
and
> > resulting superfund site would be too high. Do you use a timer or
software?
> > I'd really like to know and is it available to the general EV public?
>
> I don't have NiCads any more. When I did have them, I used a Brusa NLG412
> most of the time. I did use the PFC-20 sometimes, but then only for bulk
> charging and then only when I could watch the pack voltage closely. I had
> plans for a SAFT-aware controller for the PFC-20 but never built it. When
> the NiCads blew up (literally) I sold the Brusa charger.
>
> Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to concure on the 70% number but need to add that that is peak.
It is a broad peak, but when you have 70% at each end , .5 becomes the
new peak :-(
In the plastics industry the trend is to replace the hydraulics with
servo motors PMDC or BLDC. This is to lower power consumtion by 50%
(50%!!!!)
which reduces facilities cooling needs, also to reduce floor space,
noise level and, my favorite, leaks,filters, and oil contamination from
normal seal blowby.
We have machines with multistage variable volum pumps and systems with
accumulators as well as straight "dead head against a pressure relieve
valve" style machines
I did a power study once and the newest machine used less power than one
1/4 it's size ([EMAIL PROTECTED] 3Phase * 2)peak rated used less power than
the ([EMAIL PROTECTED] *1) constant abuser.
So if we could use PMDC motors at the wheels or inboard mount with half
shafts, then we could drive them with batteries, generator, or
mechanical battery.
Great dynamic breaking! and awsome 4 wheel drive.
How about a hollow shaft AC motor with a limited slip diffy and single
reduction inside at each axel, then conventional CV axels from there.
buy 1 when you get the car , buy a second and bolt it in back when
you want to race John.
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
No controller can fix the inherent shortcoming of a DC motor's
inability to run at high (compare to AC motors) RPM due to
integrity of brush system.
Are you equating brushes with DC motors? In other words, if it has
brushes, is it by definition a DC motor? And if it doesn't, is it by
definition an AC motor?
Definition games..:-) OK, I should say brushed motors (AC or DC)
can't run as fast as brushless motors (AC or DC) because commutation/
arcing at high speeds presents, let say, challenges, as well as
mechanical integrity of the commutators.
What about brushless DC motors? Their rpm limits are no different than
brushless AC motors.
What about AC motors with brushes (slip rings)? They have the same rpm
limits as brushed DC motors.
I think it would be more correct to say that if a motor uses brushes,
then it has a lower max rpm limit (regardless of whether it is AC or
DC). Remember, brushes are basically just a mechanical inverter.
Yes, see my correction above.
It is far more reliable to transfer energy (to the rotor) using
magnetic field than mechenucal sliding contacts (brushes).
power stage device cost is small fraction of overall controller cost.
Yes; for both AC and DC motor controllers. DC motor controllers are
still cheaper than AC motor controllers, whether you count just the
power stage, or include everything. Count amount of resistors,
capacitors, ICs and heat sinks in both types - roughly the same.
So just about the same effort to produce (provided software amortized
100%). So the price difference manufactirer choose to charge customer
does not directly reflect manufacturer's cost. It is what cistomer
willing to pay.
I think it is only because AC inverters *typically* do more
sophisticated things than just PWM battery power to the motor.
If AC inverters would do just that, their cost would be only
as much higher as cost of power stage semiconductors is, not
more. Main coat comes from the software developing and extra
features already there (like regen) people get charged for
(it doesn't nesessarily mean it is more difficult to produce).
I think industial AC inverters made in millions cost less
than Zilla made in small quantities, are they?
Victor
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Evan Tuer wrote:
I have Gmail invites available if anyone wants one. Gmail is very
good for storing and searching the EVDL (1 Gigabyte of space), and
it's free, and you can even retrieve all your mail with a POP reader,
if you want to. Reply privately if you want one.
Regards
Evan
I have 50 invites as well. Or you can go here to get one without
bothering anyone:
http://isnoop.net/gmail/
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
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Hi Jim,
This MUTA and its public day Saturday September 18 2004 were organized
primarily by CEVEQ (Center for Electric Vehicle Experimentation in Quebec)
and the City of St-Jerome, north of Montreal, where it was held and where
CEVEQ is located. The mayor of St-Jerome is very pro-EV, the city has
several in use, and ITAQ (Institut Du Transport Avance du Quebec) is part of
CEGEP St-Jerome, a pre-university college as a technology transfer centre in
advanced transportation.
The electric snowblower was built by Jean-Marie Dubois, now living near
St-Jerome. It is battery operated, and currently powered by 2 Orbital 12V
batteries. A standard 120VAC outlet cannot provide enough horsepower to
operate a full sized snow blower. It has a small traction motor and a
larger blower motor, which can be separately controlled. I am working with
him to develop a controller which implements the improvements and way of
operation covered by his his patent (pending), to make it very easy for
anyone to use, and more efficient. The speed selection lever is not
required. At the moment, this snow blower is in my garage. As luck has it,
we did not have much snow in January and February so far, but the couple of
occasions I had to use it shows it is very practical and effective. And it
avoids dealing with gas and oil, tuneups, vibration, noise, polution, etc.
These benefits we know from our EVs, but there is even more of a difference
with a snow blower, compared to a gasoline car or truck going to electric,
since gas snow blowers are not very pleasant to use.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:32 AM
Subject: EV snow blowers?
In the Nov/Dec issue of "Current EVents" there is a picture of an EV snow
blower at the Ottawa Canada EAA's MUTA show in 2004. Anyone know about
this unit? Is it battery or corded? The accompanying text (excerpts from
the EVDL) discussed corded snow blowers and the ElecTrak.... has anyone
done a large-ish battery powered blower? Albeit expensive, something like
the Valence LiIon units might be a good match.
I know someone interested in using an ElecTrak for his driveway after bad
experiences with ICE snow blowers that conk out when most needed. However
the ET strikes me as a bit oversize for the space so I was trying to
figure out other options like a regular self-propelled snow blower
converted to electric.
PS Another page in the same newsletter has a typo that makes it look like
I'm with the NY times... rest assured I'm not!
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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I like everything except the CV joints. Just not robust enough for my
tastes.
David C. Wilker Jr
USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
-- Harold S. Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: Hydraulic eff.
I have to concure on the 70% number but need to add that that is peak. It
is a broad peak, but when you have 70% at each end , .5 becomes the new
peak :-(
In the plastics industry the trend is to replace the hydraulics with servo
motors PMDC or BLDC. This is to lower power consumtion by 50% (50%!!!!)
which reduces facilities cooling needs, also to reduce floor space, noise
level and, my favorite, leaks,filters, and oil contamination from normal
seal blowby.
We have machines with multistage variable volum pumps and systems with
accumulators as well as straight "dead head against a pressure relieve
valve" style machines
I did a power study once and the newest machine used less power than one
1/4 it's size ([EMAIL PROTECTED] 3Phase * 2)peak rated used less power than
the ([EMAIL PROTECTED] *1) constant abuser.
So if we could use PMDC motors at the wheels or inboard mount with half
shafts, then we could drive them with batteries, generator, or mechanical
battery.
Great dynamic breaking! and awsome 4 wheel drive.
How about a hollow shaft AC motor with a limited slip diffy and single
reduction inside at each axel, then conventional CV axels from there.
buy 1 when you get the car , buy a second and bolt it in back when you
want to race John.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005
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How about a hollow shaft AC motor with a limited slip diffy and
single reduction inside at each axel, then conventional CV axels from
there.
buy 1 when you get the car , buy a second and bolt it in back when
you want to race John.
I've always thought it would be neat to build an induction motor with
two rotors and one stator. The one with more slip (in the motor, less
slip at the tire) would get all the torque. I guess you'd optimize the
vector control for whichever one is turning more slowly.
-Frank
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Gee Rich. That's why I'm asking. I'd like to have a vehicle that will
charge fast have long range and not be superfund site as you are so fond of
pointing out. I've scaled my needs down to one string and a lot lighter
vehicle. I'd like to point out that your regs have made my Delphi batteries
last a lot longer than they deserved to. What I really want is the right
setup to use your charger with NiCads. I really don't want to do it unless
it's safe. Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
Lawrence...
You were talking about surplus Military NiCads... Ralph has or had
Safts
that were EV desinged.
Ralph is also a tech head and working on Evilbuss controls and interfaces.
So... he has some pretty good design and control theory behind him. And he
has melted down a Nicad or two with heavy loads.
He has paid the price and knows what to look for in Nicad charging cycles.
I don't think you do.....And I fear a heavy hand a with on of my
chargers, and having the operator learn the Do's and don'ts in a hard
fast
way.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Ralph Merwin's Jelly Bean
Though the car would never turn heads
driving down the street, once it's parked and he lifts the hood or pops
the
trunk, it
demands respect. Ralph's EV Prism has been a great machine to show others
how a nice home
built electric conversion can be assembled with pride and integrity.
See Ya.......John Wayland
That's a compliment that means a lot comming from someone who is a total
neat freak conserning his EV's. Ralph could you comment on how you are
charging your pack of NiCads with a PFC charger. Rich wouldn't sell me
one
to charge my NiCads saying the chances of a spectacular battery launch
and
resulting superfund site would be too high. Do you use a timer or
software?
I'd really like to know and is it available to the general EV public?
Lawrence Rhodes..........
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Are you serious??
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2/14/05 3:33:28 PM >>>
Here's my note:
Thank you for stepping away from your pseudo-econazi persona long
enought
to help sue the state of California into some semblence of rationality
over the global warming fiction and other transportation balderdash.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Yeah, you are right. I meant DC-DC. Which could be an accessory battery
charger, but that's escaping on a technicality.
Seth
On Feb 14, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Seth Allen wrote:
Siemens is the only inverter that I am aware of that has a charger
built in.
Unless you meant integrated DC-DC, I'd like to know which
Siemens inverters gave integrated charger in them.
Victor
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with water, (inside of the motor), efficiencies are around 95%.
And it could be installed in the place of the driveshaft, and with that
have all the trunk and hood areas free for batteries.
This is just an idea, there are various problems, first of all 380V, then
AC, and then the cooling, well, also they are 100% stainless steel on the
outside, and installing them on an 8" sleeve full of water, and running the
water at a certain speed through a radiator, you are all set.
Too much hassle right ???
I think this is very interesting. Where would one find such a motor?
Mike G.
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I was thinking about options on building an auto-watering system for
BB600 batteries in my head today. One of the problems though would be
the danger of having a water system connecting a 300+ volt string of
batteries. Could be odd.
However what if one built several watering circuits, each one say
serving 48 or so volts of battery? Would this work, or would there still
be voltage potential issues?
Are the TEVan watering circuits one long string or a bunch of little ones?
Chris
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In thinking about it, would it not be possible to essentially put a T
fitting on the top of each BB600 cell, with a length of tubing going
into the cell terminated right where the cell is at full water level?
If the cap is otherwise sealed on, then when you run water it would fill
the cell to the point where the tube covers with water, then the
remainging air pressure in the cell would act as a water lock, thus
running the water on to the next cell which would fill and so on. If you
keep your water strings short and run them in parallel you wouldn't have
to worry about overflowing the first cell before the last was full.
Problem I can see with this is if the cell really gasses hard it will
blow the tube right off the top. Any other potentials for disaster?
Just thinking and dreaming NiCD dreams here.
Chris
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Prestolite motors:
http://www.showtimehydraulics.com/motors.htm
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The TEVan has 5 systolic pumps that service 6
batteries
for each pump. Excess water is diverted to a resivior
that will shut off after it is full (not sure of the
capacity, probably 6 gallons? just a guess).
I still drop all 6 battery tubs to visually check
water level every several thousand miles (like 2-3k).
I don't trust the TEVan watering system, it was a
throw together like most of the stuff on this EV. I
worked on the battery charger and motor control at GE,
so I know first hand this was not a true production
viable attemp by Chrysler, just a lame attempt to get
some EV credits in CA when there was a mandate.
I still remember the infamous upside down shake test I
made the 'almost technicians' perform on the motor
control/charger box. This test was to make sure there
where no stray screws, washers or other materials in
the box after constructing them. Imagine what a true
OEM EV would be like without the 'upside down shake
test'. The EV1 was an attempt, but I bet they had
similar proceedures for their limited run of vehicles.
I think the bottom line is that no EV has ever had a
'serious' production run or effort, just a corporate
garage shop that has less quality control than a
Wayland machine. I think there would be more EV's on
the road if there was a serious effort to build them.
Until then we'll build or own EV's.
Rod
--- Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was thinking about options on building an
> auto-watering system for
> BB600 batteries in my head today. One of the
> problems though would be
> the danger of having a water system connecting a
> 300+ volt string of
> batteries. Could be odd.
>
> However what if one built several watering circuits,
> each one say
> serving 48 or so volts of battery? Would this work,
> or would there still
> be voltage potential issues?
>
> Are the TEVan watering circuits one long string or a
> bunch of little ones?
>
> Chris
>
>
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Hi,
I recently watered the 20 Trojan T-875 batteries which are in my Jeep.
As per Trojan's recommendation, I added water after a charge cycle, and
used distilled water.
Before the watering, I'd noticed that after the charger would finish,
the battery pack voltage would fall until it hit about 168 volts, where
it would rest (no load on the batteries). According to specs, 100%
state of charge open circuit voltage should be about 8.49 volts per
battery or 169.9 volts for the pack.
Well, now when the charge cycle ends, I see the battery voltage rest at
163 to 164 volts. Even if I disconnect all loads immediately after the
charger times out, the voltage will fall (fairly quickly) until it gets
to 163-164 volts. I've also just noticed that the pack voltage seems to
sag a lot more than it used to under load, and my range has decreased.
Did I do something wrong here? I've now charged the batteries 4 times
since adding water, and nothing seems to be improving. Maybe this is all
a coincidence and has nothing to do with my watering the batteries?
P.S. I do still have a Lee Hart battery bridge LED circuit connected to
the pack while driving. I've yet to see any of the red LEDs light up...
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
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