EV Digest 4128
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(UK Scarlet Placard EVs recharge from a CO2 generating grid)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN("Have you bought an electric car? A hybrid?")-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 2-speed diff, was Re: Direct drive
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) It's "Best-Laid-Plans" Time
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 100 mile trip
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) OT: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 100 mile trip
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: It's "Best-Laid-Plans" Time
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) alt fuels car article
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 100 mile trip
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: alt fuels car article
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: OT: Welding Aluminum Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: your EV battery selection
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(UK Scarlet Placard EVs recharge from a CO2 generating grid)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.techcentralstation.com/022405.html
The Scarlet Placard By Sallie Baliunas Published 02/24/2005
As the Kyoto Treaty to limit carbon dioxide emission takes hold,
boldly-forwarded new schemes concocted to reduce energy use seem
as silly as they are pointless.
The U. K.'s Department for Transport is rating the amount of
carbon dioxide emitted from vehicles. Large utility vehicles, by
virtue of their size and hauling capacity, would display in
dealer showrooms a failing grade of F on a bright red sticker
because those vehicles would emit more carbon dioxide than
smaller, more fuel efficient cars, which would sport green shaded
labels. The Observer clucks about the social "ignominy" of
choosing a large, red-carded vehicle.
Should your disability require a large car for mobility, in the
U.K. you would bear the shame of purchasing a vehicle emblazoned
with a scarlet placard. Should you rescue and re-home dogs with a
large vehicle, your charitable kindness would be marred by the
"ignominy" of a scarlet placard. Independent sales associates may
find it hard to put their equipment or landscapers their
gardening implements in a small Honda Insight. Able to afford
only one vehicle, a poor, working single parent may have to
select an SUV for hauling customer products to find income and
carrying children at other times. With only a small car, a
working parent's necessary activities might require multiple
trips, thus defeating reductions in fuel use or carbon dioxide
emitted per mile, with the added burden of increased time cost
and lost revenue.
Depending on its use, a smaller vehicle might not always be the
most environmentally sensible option. It does, however, build a
visible social façade of seeming environmental sensitivity.
[...]
Like Puritanism's culture, the Kyoto Treaty's appeal is toward
enforcing a static environment -- a characterization of climate
that represents a physical impossibility. Moreover, the treaty's
emission cuts are so small that the air's concentration of carbon
dioxide is expected to increase over the next several decades as
people use energy to rise from poverty. The cuts are predicted to
retard the global warming trend at 2050 by an insensible amount
-- less than one-tenth degree Celsius -- compared to natural
fluctuations in temperature.
Environmental sense seems long vanished. Apparently without
recognizing its high irony, the Department of Transport's scarlet
placard program awards its greenest stickers to electric
vehicles, which emit virtually no carbon dioxide in use. Yet
recharging an electric vehicle requires buying power from local
utilities supplied through the grid. In the U. K. approximately
70 percent of electricity is produced by natural gas and coal,
both of which emit carbon dioxide. The green placard is no
guidance on carbon dioxide emission over the fuel cycle of the
vehicle. To the atmosphere it does not matter if carbon dioxide
is emitted while driving a combustion-engine vehicle or while
recharging a parked vehicle that operates on an electric motor.
Like Hester Prynne's scarlet letter, the meaningless scarlet
placard reflects more shame on those issuing it rather than those
bearing its costs.
© 2005 Tech Central Station
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=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN("Have you bought an electric car? A hybrid?")-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=14019002&BRD=1395&PAG=461&dept_id=216620&rfi=6
Driving for Green By: Novella Carpenter February 23, 2005
O.K., I know you have all of your W-2s by now. The chubby 1040
pamphlets are staring menacingly at you, aren't they? You're
having dreams about the IRS coming to your house. What are you
waiting for? I procrastinate doing taxes more than anything, too,
but I've found it's better to know the truth than to fret about
the what-ifs. If you're going to owe thousands, it's better to
know now and plan on how you'll pay rather than waiting until the
dreaded April 15 deadline.
One of the things many people overlook with their taxes is their
car-related tax deductions. My mom was thrilled when she filed
her claim (she does it online, using the IRS' free version of
Turbo Tax) and up popped the question: "Have you bought an
electric car? A hybrid?" She hadn't, but she's one of those
former flower children, and she likes the idea of getting a break
from the federal government for using a groovy fuel efficient
vehicle. My accountant, Faith Fuller, told me exactly what's
going on with the hybrid deduction. If you purchase a new hybrid
gas-electric vehicle by the end of 2005, you can take a clean
fuel vehicle tax deduction of up to $2,000. This will include the
Toyota Prius, the Honda Insight and the Ford Escape hybrids. In
2006, the incentive will be reduced to $500. Vehicles purchased
after 2006 don't get any deduction under current rules. Great
time to buy a hybrid (hint, hint). Fuller said that this
deduction from your adjusted gross income would save you around
$500 if you are in the 25 percent tax bracket.
Other clean-fuel vehicles eligible for deductions are those
powered by liquefied natural gas, liquefied petroleum gas,
hydrogen, electric vehicles, and any other fuel that is at least
85 percent alcohol or ether. The electric vehicle credit is a
straight refund of up to $4,000 (in 2006, it'll be $1,000). But
as Fuller noted, "The problem is, when I went online to find the
cost of a new electric vehicle, I couldn't find one, so I can't
tell you how much of a savings that would be." Yes, they all seem
to be at the crusher, dearie. Let's demand more EV vehicles, eh?
If you have a business, you'll need to take your tax deductions
for your vehicle, if you use it for business-related trips or
some income-producing activity. According to an article published
by MSN Money, you can choose to deduct using the mileage cost
basis, where you multiply your mileage by a rate the IRS
determines. This year (for the 2004 return), it's 37.5 cents per
mile (for your 2005 return, it'll be 40.5 cents). Using this
form, you simply take your business miles, multiply by 37.5
cents, and you've got your deduction.
Slightly more complicated is the mileage percentage basis. Using
this, you calculate what percent of the time you used your car
for business, and then take that percentage of all expenses
incurred by having a vehicle, including maintenance, gas, oil,
registration fees and depreciations.
According to tax professional Fuller, "For both methods, you have
to tell the IRS that you are keeping a mileage log, and writing
down the number of miles you drive for your business. It is
easier to use the mileage rate they give you, because all you
need to put on your return is the number of miles driven. With
the actual cost method, you need the cost of repairs, insurance
and gas as well as the miles. I've generally found that the
former is easier, and it more often than not gives a higher
deduction." Of course, for both of these, all parking and tolls
are 100 percent deductible as business expenses.
Finally, there's a new chapter in the SUV deduction front. The
IRS is limiting the SUV tax deduction this year. Last year, a tax
loophole of sorts allowed savvy business owners to buy SUVs and
then deduct the entire cost of the SUV up front (an SUV weighing
6,000 pounds or more was considered "equipment"). Business owners
got to take a full depreciation for the SUVs life at a faster
rate, too. Now, according to the new rules, vehicles placed in
service after Oct. 22 are limited to a deduction of $25,000 or
less.
Sweet tax justice.
Local Hybrid Interests By Jill Raygor
Locally, interest in hybrid vehicles is exceeding that of other
cities. Toyota has noted that the Bill Cooke dealership located
on Route 13 in Ithaca is among the top hybrid dealerships in
Upstate New York.
In 2004, the dealership sold 36 Prius cars, Toyota's sole hybrid
line until later this year when it will release its hybrid
Highlander.
"We're expecting at least twice [the number sold in 2004] if not
more," said Ed Szymanski, sales manager for Toyota and Subaru at
Bill Cooke.
Aside from local interest, Toyota has also stepped up its
production of the Prius, meaning the waiting list established
several years ago at Bill Cooke will fall by the wayside.
Expected in June or July of 2005, the hybrid Highlander will be
"perfect for Ithaca," Szymanski said.
The sport utility vehicle will offer the power of a V-8 in a
six-cylinder with a fuel economy equal to that of the Toyota
Corolla, the line's compact car. The Highlander will also feature
all-wheel drive.
Bill Cooke is not the only dealer in town with hybrid sales
making their way to the forefront. Honda of Ithaca has also seen
increased sales in the last year with higher numbers of sales
expected in 2005.
Honda of Ithaca has two hybrid vehicles available - the Civic
Hybrid and the Accord Hybrid - of which it sold more than 50
total hybrid vehicles last year.
General Sales Manager Eric Arden said the company is "definitely
looking to sell more" in 2005. Though nothing definite has been
put into place, he said there has been talk of additional models
beginning to offer hybrid lines in the future.
"The Accords are sold before they get to the lot," Arden said,
adding that there is a waiting list for the cars.
The hybrid Civics selling tactics vary. The dealership sometimes
receives an additional shipment of the hybrid Civics so
cutstomers don't always have to wait before test driving or
buying. Many are so impressed by the idea of such a vehicle and
its affects on the environment, however, that they will order
even before a test drive.
Arden and Szymanski both said Ithacans have a large interest in
hybrid vehicles, and many shoppers come in looking for hybrid
models more than any other type of automobile.
Arden's company does not have a great need to advertise the
hybrids, as they are often not on the lot long enough. But, he
said, occassionally an advertisement will run when there are
extra hybrids on the lot, and the cars go quickly.
"There's much more interest [in hybrids] in Ithaca than in other
areas," said Szymanski. "Ithacans want fuel economy, but they
also want something that's good for the environment - Prius
offers that."
* * * *
Driving a hybrid is not only cost effective when it comes to fuel
economy but also when filing your taxes.
In 2005, income tax returns are expected to include credits of up
to $2,000 for those who purchase a hybrid vehicle in the 2005
calendar year. In 2006 that figure will drop to $500.
So with more hybrid choices coming out and more money-saving tax
incentives, now seems like the perfect time to purchase a hybrid
vehicle.
©Ithaca Times 2005
Copyright © 1995 - 2005 PowerOne Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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--- Begin Message ---
That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of solig aluminum in a seam
is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and cooling was done
properly, ther will not be any difference. If preheated and slow
cooled (or whatever technique is used), should not be any difference
in final strength.
Victor
Michael Hurley wrote:
Reverend Gadget wrote:
... unlike steel where the
weld is stronger than the base material, aluminum is
not.
And, why is this (welder's skill aside)?
Aluminum can become brittle when heated. It's reaction to the heat can
be somewhat unpredictable. This makes welding problematic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Older (Pre-war) Ford cars and trucks could be had with a Columbia 2-spead
rear end, but I don't have any more information that that. Sorry.
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: 2-speed diff, was Re: Direct drive
I know there are some older pickup trucks that used
them. I knew a guy who had fitted one into his
t-bucket roadster. I don't know what models had them.
I'd been thinking of using the reduction gear part of
a transfer case from a four wheel drive. one of the
newer shift on the fly models. That way I would only
need to connect a switch to do the job.
Gadget
--- Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
I've considered multi-speed differentials before,
but I don't know much
about them. I'd assumed that the only ones
available would be from very
large vehicles (I think my dad's Freightliner had a
2-speed air-shifted
diff).
Is there such a thing that would fit on a compact
pickup? I guess it'd
be kinda funny looking (but perhaps in a cool, neato
sort of way) to have
a diff that's almost as big around as the wheels.
--chris
Reverend Gadget said:
>>
>> If I do go with direct-drive, the money I don't
>> spend on a
>> transmission/clutch/adapter plate/etc will be
spent
>> on getting a decent
>> rear end and driveshaft; most likely a Ford 9"
>> setup. I have a great deal
>> of flexibility with ratio choices with this rear
>> end, though clearly I
>> can't change while I'm driving. :o)
>
>
> Two speed rearend perhaps?
>
> Gadget
>
> =====
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I unpackaged the TS cells today, I found that the end plates shipped
are both thicker and wider than I had anticipated. Unfortunately, the fit
in my battery box design had only a couple of millimeters to spare in either
direction, so it looks like I'm going to have to change the box shape, move
it back 3 inches, and raise it 4 inches off the floor. Unfortunately, this
means that I didn't need to have cut out the gas tank hump after all. Ah,
well. At least the car's 8 pounds lighter for it. Here are some images:
1) 35 Batteries arrived in 2 crates:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/TwoCratesOfBatteries.JPG
2) Batteries were pre-grouped and pre-strapped into groups of seven:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/GroupedInSevens.JPG
3) All Batteries arrived with over 4V of charge:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/TestingVoltage.JPG
4) End plates are more than 1/4-inch thick and nearly 8 inches wide:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/EndPlates.JPG
5) Batteries came with pre-made connectors and bolts.
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/Connectors.JPG
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks a lot for all the input... I need to digest the ideas and do some more
research, and find a donner veh that I can use.
Thanks
Rush
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually there will be, the welder's skill is only going to eliminate
any physical weld problems, not solve the material strength
reduction. The most common sheet aluminum (as far as I know) in
6061-T6, which is a 6000 series aluminum alloy (Al-Mg-Si) with a T6
temper designation. This means that it has been solution treated and
then artificially aged. It takes a materials class to understand
what is happening microscopically, but suffice it to say that it is
not a simple matter of cooling it slowly. You must heat it to the
correct temperature, hold it there, quench it, then age it
(artificially or naturally) to achieve full strength. There are
companies that do nothing but heat treat aluminum, it is generally
not something you can achieve at home. Otherwise just design for the
T0 (annealed) strength and slap a hefty safety factor on it.
Keith
That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of solig aluminum in a seam
is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and cooling was done
properly, ther will not be any difference. If preheated and slow
cooled (or whatever technique is used), should not be any difference
in final strength.
Victor
Michael Hurley wrote:
Reverend Gadget wrote:
... unlike steel where the
weld is stronger than the base material, aluminum is
not.
And, why is this (welder's skill aside)?
Aluminum can become brittle when heated. It's reaction to the heat
can be somewhat unpredictable. This makes welding problematic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Are you sure your Tacoma weighs only 2775 lbs? Could the double cab
>version weigh over 1000 lbs more?
Looks like the "tested" weight includes 400 pounds for a driver and
passenger. A stripper 5-spd shortbed Taco clocks in around 2750 lbs,
while the 4wd V6 crew cab version checks in around 3700 lbs.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>While this is interesting, it's kind of useless
>information since we can't
>extract 100% of the energy stored in either hydrogen
>or gasoline.
Now that you mention it, I think you're right. I wanted to
contrast the efficiency some by again provoking the question
of how efficient hydrogen really is. That kind of makes my
statement redundant given I mentioned fuel cell efficiency
in its own topic.
If you consume 33 kWh of H2 in a fuel cell you'll go about
as far as burning 33 kWh worth of gasoline in an ICE compact
car, once differences in vehicle weights are counted in
(Honda FCX is a real porker!).
>What is
>much more important (at least to the average
>consumer) is "How far can I
>go on $1 worth of X" or "How much does it cost me to
>go Y distance"
>Where X would be Hydrogen, Gasoline or Electricity.
>Currently, in an average car, you can go about;
>14 miles per $1 of Gas (CAFE requires 27.5 mpg
>average)
>25-40 in a hybrid.
>20-40 miles per $1 of Electricity
>12-24 miles per $1 of Hydrogen (depending on the
>actual cost of the H2)
Now that you mention it, I'm starting to like approaching it
from this view. Hydrogen has quite a way to go before it
becomes competitive with anything in this regard, although
I'm sure cheap wind energy could bring prices down
siginificantly, electricity itself will always be inherently
cheaper unless the Earth were to have large, naturally
occuring, and highly common hydrogen wells much similar to
oil wells(Which it doesn't).
>Umm, actually most hydrogen is produced from natural
>gas, not oil, though
>I'll grant you that natural gas is a petroleum by
>product.
Well, I meant to say it would start as petroleum. Most
natural gas may come from wells(natural gas wells and
petroleum wells) now, but to power 20 million or more
cars(10x needed more for 200 million cars), it would need to
come from other places, such as crude oil itself. This is
because natural gas production in the US peaked in 1972, and
often there are purported shortages of it already. In order
to get that extra natural gas, petroleum is the most-likely
candidate(only viable candidate for large scale consumption
at present) to be made into CH4, and then from that H2, in
the case H2 comes from natural gas. You end up starting with
oil.
--- End Message ---
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6061 will slowly age harden i.e. sort of self tempering after welding.
I don't recall if the period is 30 or 180 days to regain the max amount.
So as long as the weld is sound and not cooked just letting the box sit
around will do this. And as long as you use a filler rod one grade above
the 6061 you get most of the strength back. For design I've been told to
use 2/3 to 3/4 of the original strength to be safe.
Having said that I'd still recommend rivets ;-]
Dave
> Actually there will be, the welder's skill is only going to eliminate
> any physical weld problems, not solve the material strength
> reduction. The most common sheet aluminum (as far as I know) in
> 6061-T6, which is a 6000 series aluminum alloy (Al-Mg-Si) with a T6
> temper designation. This means that it has been solution treated and
> then artificially aged. It takes a materials class to understand
> what is happening microscopically, but suffice it to say that it is
> not a simple matter of cooling it slowly. You must heat it to the
> correct temperature, hold it there, quench it, then age it
> (artificially or naturally) to achieve full strength. There are
> companies that do nothing but heat treat aluminum, it is generally
> not something you can achieve at home. Otherwise just design for the
> T0 (annealed) strength and slap a hefty safety factor on it.
>
> Keith
>
> >That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of solig aluminum in a seam
> >is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and cooling was done
> >properly, ther will not be any difference. If preheated and slow
> >cooled (or whatever technique is used), should not be any difference
> >in final strength.
> >
> >Victor
> >
> >Michael Hurley wrote:
> >
> >>>Reverend Gadget wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>... unlike steel where the
> >>>>weld is stronger than the base material, aluminum is
> >>>>not.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>And, why is this (welder's skill aside)?
> >>
> >>
> >>Aluminum can become brittle when heated. It's reaction to the heat
> >>can be somewhat unpredictable. This makes welding problematic.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
You don't HAVE to use supplied bookends if they don't fit.
MAke your own. Id you use steel, they don't have to be
as thick too. In fact, they don't have to be too thick
at all, since what holds the batteries from swelling is
band straps around, not the stiffness of the plates.
Victor
Bill Dennis wrote:
When I unpackaged the TS cells today, I found that the end plates shipped
are both thicker and wider than I had anticipated. Unfortunately, the fit
in my battery box design had only a couple of millimeters to spare in either
direction, so it looks like I'm going to have to change the box shape, move
it back 3 inches, and raise it 4 inches off the floor. Unfortunately, this
means that I didn't need to have cut out the gas tank hump after all. Ah,
well. At least the car's 8 pounds lighter for it. Here are some images:
1) 35 Batteries arrived in 2 crates:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/TwoCratesOfBatteries.JPG
2) Batteries were pre-grouped and pre-strapped into groups of seven:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/GroupedInSevens.JPG
3) All Batteries arrived with over 4V of charge:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/TestingVoltage.JPG
4) End plates are more than 1/4-inch thick and nearly 8 inches wide:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/EndPlates.JPG
5) Batteries came with pre-made connectors and bolts.
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/Connectors.JPG
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gnat wrote:
...
Having said that I'd still recommend rivets ;-]
Dave
Or small locktite'd screws - this even allow to disassemble the boxes
if you need...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:09 PM -0800 on 2/25/05, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of solig aluminum in a seam
is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and cooling was done
properly, ther will not be any difference. If preheated and slow
cooled (or whatever technique is used), should not be any difference
in final strength.
It is partially the skill of the weldor, but aluminum is also just
bloody difficult to predict. Welding aluminum is about half art and
half skill.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just ran across this AP story posted on the MSNBC
web site. Read it all the way to the last paragraph --
is anyone else surprised by this news besides me?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827172/
Here's more to flesh out that last paragraph. Looks a
lot like an EV charge, eh?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5960905/
Sherry Boschert
SFEVA
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had some extrusion made for one of my projects years
ago (it was more reasonable than one would think), it
was 6061 to be made to a T6 temper. The material was
being extruded from the machine like play-dough, at a
fast walking pace, through a small waterfall. The
material was cut once it reached about 80 feet long.
It was about as strong a long pieces of rubber. It had
to be dragged out of the way, since it was to limp to
pick up. The pieces were allowed to cool for maybe ten
minutes. Then they were clamped into giant hydralic
vises at both ends and then stretched a certain
prescribed amount. The material was then so stiff it
could be picked up by the ends. The die sizes are
calculated to allow for the shrink that happens from
the stretching. The pieces where then cut to length
and banded for me to pick up a day later. I'm not sure
where the solution treating and artificial aging
happend, but they did it pretty quickly. Either that
or "thems fancy werds fer gettin it wet and yankin on
em"
Gadget
--- Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually there will be, the welder's skill is only
> going to eliminate
> any physical weld problems, not solve the material
> strength
> reduction. The most common sheet aluminum (as far
> as I know) in
> 6061-T6, which is a 6000 series aluminum alloy
> (Al-Mg-Si) with a T6
> temper designation. This means that it has been
> solution treated and
> then artificially aged. It takes a materials class
> to understand
> what is happening microscopically, but suffice it
> to say that it is
> not a simple matter of cooling it slowly. You must
> heat it to the
> correct temperature, hold it there, quench it, then
> age it
> (artificially or naturally) to achieve full
> strength. There are
> companies that do nothing but heat treat aluminum,
> it is generally
> not something you can achieve at home. Otherwise
> just design for the
> T0 (annealed) strength and slap a hefty safety
> factor on it.
>
> Keith
>
> >That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of
> solig aluminum in a seam
> >is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and
> cooling was done
> >properly, ther will not be any difference. If
> preheated and slow
> >cooled (or whatever technique is used), should not
> be any difference
> >in final strength.
> >
> >Victor
> >
> >Michael Hurley wrote:
> >
> >>>Reverend Gadget wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>... unlike steel where the
> >>>>weld is stronger than the base material,
> aluminum is
> >>>>not.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>And, why is this (welder's skill aside)?
> >>
> >>
> >>Aluminum can become brittle when heated. It's
> reaction to the heat
> >>can be somewhat unpredictable. This makes welding
> problematic.
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have no mechanical experience with Al, but the last
time I took a commuter plane all of the panels had
rivets. The panels may not be Aluminum, but they did
have rivets, not welds. Perhaps the mechanical
inclined could explain this.
Rod
--- Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 6061 will slowly age harden i.e. sort of self
> tempering after welding.
> I don't recall if the period is 30 or 180 days to
> regain the max amount.
> So as long as the weld is sound and not cooked just
> letting the box sit
> around will do this. And as long as you use a filler
> rod one grade above
> the 6061 you get most of the strength back. For
> design I've been told to
> use 2/3 to 3/4 of the original strength to be safe.
>
> Having said that I'd still recommend rivets ;-]
>
> Dave
>
>
> > Actually there will be, the welder's skill is only
> going to eliminate
> > any physical weld problems, not solve the material
> strength
> > reduction. The most common sheet aluminum (as far
> as I know) in
> > 6061-T6, which is a 6000 series aluminum alloy
> (Al-Mg-Si) with a T6
> > temper designation. This means that it has been
> solution treated and
> > then artificially aged. It takes a materials
> class to understand
> > what is happening microscopically, but suffice it
> to say that it is
> > not a simple matter of cooling it slowly. You
> must heat it to the
> > correct temperature, hold it there, quench it,
> then age it
> > (artificially or naturally) to achieve full
> strength. There are
> > companies that do nothing but heat treat aluminum,
> it is generally
> > not something you can achieve at home. Otherwise
> just design for the
> > T0 (annealed) strength and slap a hefty safety
> factor on it.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > >That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of
> solig aluminum in a seam
> > >is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and
> cooling was done
> > >properly, ther will not be any difference. If
> preheated and slow
> > >cooled (or whatever technique is used), should
> not be any difference
> > >in final strength.
> > >
> > >Victor
> > >
> > >Michael Hurley wrote:
> > >
> > >>>Reverend Gadget wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>... unlike steel where the
> > >>>>weld is stronger than the base material,
> aluminum is
> > >>>>not.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>And, why is this (welder's skill aside)?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Aluminum can become brittle when heated. It's
> reaction to the heat
> > >>can be somewhat unpredictable. This makes
> welding problematic.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The panels where aluminum. They are a 7000 series
aluminum which is alloyed with silicon and is not
weldable. But it's strength is up there with steel at
a fraction of the weight. It is another Aluminum that
work hardens. The holes in the metal are drilled, then
go into a dimpling machine that presses a countersink
into the hole. The process of dimpling also hardens
the material around the hole which is perfect since
this is where the forces are concentrated. Again it's
half art.
Gadget
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have no mechanical experience with Al, but the
> last
> time I took a commuter plane all of the panels had
> rivets. The panels may not be Aluminum, but they
> did
> have rivets, not welds. Perhaps the mechanical
> inclined could explain this.
> Rod
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote "They don't "need" to be geared 17:1 that just happens
to be a easy ratio
to get when one gear is as big around as a flywheel.
Obviously, if you are going to design a starter/generator that connects to
the motor with a belt, then you would design it to work at a ratio that is
easy to implement with a belt.
Also, many on the starters in cars these days include an 'internal' gear
reduction /before/ the one at the flywheel. This allows them to use
higher spinning, more efficient, PM motors for starters."
A couple of things. Why is the flywheel as big as round as it is? It could
be made smaller and have the starter come in from the tranny side. They
don't do this for a reason, I would assume. In a couple of years starters
will be a thing of the past on top of the line cars anyway. There is
technology in place to start a vehicle with electronic activated valves and
a computer controlling the firing order. Variable lift, variable duration,
variable spark, pretty cool stuff.
I don't see any point in designing a belt drive starter, it would be working
backwards. Incorporating the starter into the flywheel is just a lot simpler
an action. But they won't be needy for much longer anyway. Incorporating the
alternator into the flywheel still makes a ton of sense though.
Gear reduction starters have been in use for several decades. The worlds
biggest manufacturer of these units Denso, does not use permanent magnets.
Ford, GM, and Bosch use them, but even they are going back to gear
reduction, field coil starters.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: 100 mile trip
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:00:14 -0700
Hi all,
I'm new to the world of EV, but have used PV on my 5th wheel
(www.ironandwood.org/graphics/PV_RE.pdf an article in HOME POWER) so I'm
primed for a conversion.
But I have a problem, I need to have a 100 mile range. I am in Tucson AZ,
actually about 25 miles outside in 3 Points. So when I go into town for
shopping, movie, dinner, friends, whatever, I need to have a 100 mile
range. The end (and also every beginning) of my trip is up an incline of
about 1% for 5 miles. For most of the drive, 25 miles, into tucson I can
travel at 65 mph, but 55 is fine. I would like the conversion to be a light
truck, S-10, Ranger or Toyota Extrcab so that if need be I can carry some
materials and I also figure that I can put the batteries under the bed,
maybe even replace the metal bed with wood (if weight wise that is
possible). Even though it is hot in the summer I don't need AC, just some
heat for defrost and if it is cold.
100 mile range is a very noble goal. I guess it's easy to do 50 miles
just in Tucson, not counting the 25 miles each way in and out. Could you get
a partial charge in Tucson maybe a bulk charge for an hour or so. At least
then you won't draw down the pack so much.
So far I have come up with the following: truck donner S-10, Ranger, Toyota
Xtracab or similiar with a FB4001 motor, a Zilla controller and a BIG
battery pack, at least 120 V pack (120 v / 6 v =20 bats x 72 lbs = 1440
lbs). I would use the Zilla to limit the amount of volts that go to the
motor so that the volts don't cook the motor (thanks to Rich for the
suggestion). And of course a PFC50 charger so I can use 120, 240 v outlets
and really charge up the pack fast.
If I go to 156 V, the weight becomes 1872 lbs, 170 V pack is 2040.
How do I figure out what my reserve would be with the various volt packs?
Here is a link to a peukert effect calculator:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html
This is Uve's peukert website. I think it should be of help to you.
Am I pushing the frame specs by adding so much weight?
I'm not an expert on pickup trucks, I would think a small pickup would
require some work to increase the gross vehicle weight rating.
>From my PV experience I know that the Trojan L-16H (6 volt, 20 H rate 420
AH , 121 lbs, 11 5/8 L x 7 W x 16 3/4 H) is the preferred battery cause it
holds so many amp hrs with basicly the same footprint, only higher by 6
inches, which in a house is no problem. Is the increased weight not worth
the increased Amps? Again how do I figure how many miles I can get from
Amps?
I'll try this amateur calculation based on my work with Uve's peukert
calculator.
Let's assume your heavy candidate vehicle needs 400 watt-hours to travel
one mile at 55 mph. 55*400 = 22,000 wh so 100 miles would require 40,000 wh.
Let's use the T-145 with 260 amp hours at 20 hour rate and 530 minute
reserve capacity. Lets say we have forty of them in the pack. Assume a 120
volt system using two strings of twenty.
It takes 22 kw of power to drive this vehicle using the above assumption.
At 120 volts it takes 184 amps to move at 55 mph. Now since there are two
strings sharing the load each string gives 92 amps. I hope i'm right on this
count.
100 miles at 55 mph is about 1.8 hours. according to the calculator, the
batteries can give out 89 amps over that 1.8 hour period.
The batteries would have a 160 amp hour capacity for that 1.8 hour period.
(160 ah*6v*40)=38400 wh, not quite 100 miles at 400 wh per mile. I get 96
miles.
I'll admit i dont know how voltage drop comes ito play here.
I've used some pretty conservative assumptions here. Maybe 400 watt hours
per mile is too high?
With the L-16H's the 140 V pack is 2904 lbs but 420 AH at 20 H rate. 120 V
pack is 2420 lbs.
A pack of 40 t-145's weighs 2880 lbs.
All comments are welcome...
Thanks for letting us be of service.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
Regards. A.K. Howard , in Las Vegas, NV, and living the good life
electrically.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:36 PM 25/02/05 -0800, you wrote:
I just ran across this AP story posted on the MSNBC
web site. Read it all the way to the last paragraph --
is anyone else surprised by this news besides me?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6827172/
Here's more to flesh out that last paragraph. Looks a
lot like an EV charge, eh?
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5960905/
Sherry Boschert
That second part states "uses around 800 watts" and "takes around six
hours" - thats 4.8kWh, used to compress the gas to go around 200 miles. So
as well as the gas, there is somewhere around a 24wh/mile cost, too.
Just take that x10 and forget the gas!
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will naturally age to roughly a T4 condition. I don't have a
chart in my book for 6000 series alloys, I can't say how long that
will take. It will continue to become stronger the longer it sits
too. I think your 70% rule of thumb is a good one.
Keith
P.S. I can't believe you actually took the time to remove the OT from
the subject line *shakes head*
6061 will slowly age harden i.e. sort of self tempering after welding.
I don't recall if the period is 30 or 180 days to regain the max amount.
So as long as the weld is sound and not cooked just letting the box sit
around will do this. And as long as you use a filler rod one grade above
the 6061 you get most of the strength back. For design I've been told to
use 2/3 to 3/4 of the original strength to be safe.
Having said that I'd still recommend rivets ;-]
Dave
Actually there will be, the welder's skill is only going to eliminate
any physical weld problems, not solve the material strength
reduction. The most common sheet aluminum (as far as I know) in
6061-T6, which is a 6000 series aluminum alloy (Al-Mg-Si) with a T6
temper designation. This means that it has been solution treated and
then artificially aged. It takes a materials class to understand
what is happening microscopically, but suffice it to say that it is
not a simple matter of cooling it slowly. You must heat it to the
correct temperature, hold it there, quench it, then age it
(artificially or naturally) to achieve full strength. There are
companies that do nothing but heat treat aluminum, it is generally
not something you can achieve at home. Otherwise just design for the
T0 (annealed) strength and slap a hefty safety factor on it.
Keith
>That is the skill of the welder. If the bulk of solig aluminum in a seam
>is no thinner than the thickness of sheets, and cooling was done
>properly, ther will not be any difference. If preheated and slow
>cooled (or whatever technique is used), should not be any difference
>in final strength.
>
>Victor
>
>Michael Hurley wrote:
>
>>>Reverend Gadget wrote:
>>>
>>>>... unlike steel where the
>>>>weld is stronger than the base material, aluminum is
>>>>not.
>>>
>>>
>>>And, why is this (welder's skill aside)?
>>
>>
>>Aluminum can become brittle when heated. It's reaction to the heat
>>can be somewhat unpredictable. This makes welding problematic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Feb 2005 at 8:45, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> My guess is "Not well" in fact I'm not even sure you can get 1000 amps
> out of them.
This accords with my experience. You want to hold current to around 250-300
amps max with these batteries.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Republicans have perfectly nice manners, normal hair,
pleasant smiles, good deodorants; but when it comes down
to cases, you do not want them to be monitoring your oxygen
flow. They will set it to the minimum required to sustain basic
brain function, and then they will recite a little prayer for you.
-- Garrison Keillor
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