EV Digest 4174
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: BB600 charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) BB600 have to go straight up and down?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Spoon feeding BB600's.
by Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) My experiences with BB-600 NiCad Cells
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: wind charger?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: FW: BB600 charging
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Any new EV cars for sale?
by Dick Farfel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I guess BB600 is just the designation of a type of battery, regardless of
the manufacturer, so your SAFT cells might need a different charging scheme
than the Marathon cells. Sorry for the confusion. I just saw BB600 and
assumed Marathon. I need to learn to be a more attentive reader. :(
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rush
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BB600 charging
Bill,
You had a post before saying that the BB-600 are Marathon cells. Are they?
We are under the impression that they are Saft cells. Can you elaborate more
on what makes you think that they are Marathon? Is it just the size?
The Invitation for Bid clearly states SAFT AMERICA INC. P/N 017371-000.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: BB600 charging
> The BB600 manual that I have from Marathon calls for a 21A CC charge until
> all cells reach 1.55V, then a 2-hour topping charge of 8.4A.
>
> I was planning on attaching an Amp-hour counter to the Nicads, and then
> putting back approx. 110% of the Amp-hours used to equalize the cells. So
> if I used 30 Amp-hours, for example, I'd want to put 33 Amp-hours back in.
> If my charger goes to only 18A, then I'd charge at 18A for an hour,
followed
> by 8A for 2 hours. Does that sound right, or is there a better way to do
> it?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Maki, Garret
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:43 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: BB600 charging
>
> OK, so it looks like a lot of us may be playing with NiCad.
> What are you planning on using for charging? How advanced does the
charger
> need to be? I've only been doing this for a few months now so sorry if
this
> has already been discussed.
> -Garret in Colorado
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm assuming since they are flooded they have to be treated like flooded
batteries and only straight up and down? Would be too good to be true if they
could be put on their side. Thought I'd ask since I saw some mention of
airplane cells.
Thanks.
Mark Hastings
S-15 EV Pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As Chris alluded to, and he and I have discussed:
My girlfriend is currently living in China and working with a small
export company that is looking for products.
Normally they want to ship by the container full, but she said she might
be able to get a local shop to make watering caps and ship them in
smaller boxes.
Currently she sends me 1 kilo boxes (of pearls and silk) at a cost about
$US 8.00 for 1-2 month shipping, if memory serves me.
We could definately get cell interconnects made cheaply, though they'd
weigh more.
Mike Shipway
Christopher Zach wrote:
The Saft cap might be an example. Maybe we can build a prototype for
one that fits the 600 then make them in China or something. For 50
batteries that would never pay. But how about an order for 10,000 of
them?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have two of the DCP DC-DC converters I *intend* to use in the
GhiaMonstster with three of Otmar's HV 1K Zillas at 336V. Do these
power levels make the problem more likely to occur??
Steve
www.ghiamonster.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
Both Rudman and the Alltrax folks felt the only event that would cause
the input fuse to blow was repeated high inrush currents. For example:
switching the DC/DC off the ignition or a bad/loose HV wire to the unit.
The DC/DC has an inrush limiter, but it appears to be a small thermal
device.
So the problem could be as Lee suggests: pack voltage swings caused by
the Zilla. That would explain why the unit never failed on Alltrax's
test bench. It would also explain why Nick with sagging pack of
floodeds blows the fuse more often than I do with my stiffer pack of
Optimas (except when my car is driven by certain lead footed
individuals).
If that is the case there isn't much that can be done about the issue.
Once again I ask who out there is using the DCP DC/DC with the Zilla, or
with other high current (TREX/Raptor 1200) controllers. Has anyone else
seen this issue?
Mark Farver
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi all, Rush asked me to share my NiCad experiences, so I thought I would
share with the whole list. Much of this has been posted before, but thanks
to Hump we are having quite a NiCad frenzy :-)
First let me say I love NiCads, but Lead Acid has the advantage of having
lots of stuff available that you can just buy and make them work. The good
news is that NiCads are fairly easy to deal with. There are two big No
No's. Don't get them to hot, and don't let them go dry, other than that you
can do just about anything to them. A third smaller no no is don't reverse
them, but this is not fatal as they do have some resilience to this, but
they may not bounce back to be as strong as they once were.
So here are my thoughts about charging. The best way to charge NiCads is to
keep track of amp hours. This is not always possible, and you can charge
them watching voltage, you just have to understand that at some point the
voltage quits rising and starts dropping. If you miss that and keep
charging you will eventually get them too hot or dry them out. If charging
by voltage somewhere around 1.65V is a good indication that they are
getting full.
I categorize my charging into 3 different types. Typically I under charge
mine and simply try to put in about what I took out or maybe a bit more.
Occasionally I equalize them putting in 110% to 120% of what I took out.
When I want to really get them them back in shape I give them an
initialization charge which ends up 150% of rated capacity.
For any overage charging I use a C/10 rate or in the case of these cells
3.4amps. I feel that this is a very safe rate of charge for these cells as
a typical initialization charge by the manufacturer specs is C/10 for 15
hours. It would be very hard to ever hurt the cells at this rate of charge
(unless you really over do it), so I use this rate a lot. I use a string of
light bulbs in series with the pack to deliver a constant 3.4 amps.
I highly recommend testing each cell individually so you know exactly what
you have. If you do not, you run the risk of reversing cells on a regular
basis. The risk is not necessarily greater than it is with any other
battery, but with these you have access to each cell, so you might as well
take advantage of it.
Here is How I will test my cells. When I first get them I will make sure
that they are fully discharged, this will in all likelyhood be the case.
Then I will hook up a string of them in series and charge them at 3.4 amps
for 15 hours. I'll water them, then I will individually discharge each of
them at 120 amps. I use this this rate, because it makes for easy math and
is a very typical rate for my motorcycle to draw. Each 30 seconds means 1
ahr of capacity. I cut the test off when the voltage drops to .9V and write
the capacity on the cell. If they needed a bunch of water I may actually
charge them a second time and repeat the test. This process is time
consuming, but necessary to save pack problems later on. Also since the
test equipment is easy to make you can test many cells at the same time,
just make more test devices. I use 2 50 amp jumper cable type clamps, two
short lengths of 4 guage cable and one piece of 18 guage wire and a bucket
of water. I keep the 18 guage wire submersed to dissipate heat and cut it
to a length that gives me an average current draw of around 120 amps. I will
assemble my pack with my best cells and limit my use to whatever my worst
cell is capbable of.
I have found these cells to provide about the same range as warmed up lead
acid batteries of the same weight. They do not sag like lead acid so you
get more consistant performance. When they are done, they are done, and it
does not take long for them to go from .9V to 0V and then reverse, so you
have to know how much capacity you have. I also believe they are much
easier to charge. Just don't charge them all the way up when you don't need
to, and when you do overcharge do it at the C/10 rate. Mine have not used
much water, but if you are putting yours in a car you will have to have good
access to each cell for watering. If you do have good access to each cell
watering isn't too bad, but if you have hundreds of cells to water, it is
definitely going to take some time. I would say this chore and the fact
that they have to be mounted verticle and are basically as heavy as Lead
Acid will leave some people wishing they would had stuck with SLA's. For
me though, NiCads are the way to go until I can afford some LiPo.
damon
From: Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 09:42:43 -0700
Damon,
I got your address from the evlist group, and thought that maybe you could
add your knowledge about your cells to the group of us that have bought the
BB-600 cells. Could you tell us more about your cells? How long have you
had them, what are the specs, size, V, Amp? How do you charge them? Water
them? etc.
Thanks a lot
Rush
Tucson AZ
hecked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, I believe most of your experience has been with VW Rabbits or
conventional front-engine rear-drive vehicles? I can believe that the
ADC end bell mount is adequate in these cases.
My experience has been all over the board.
But, the Porsche 914, the Renault LeCar, the old Chevy Corvair, and a
few other vehicles have a different setup that puts considerably more
stress on the motor mount.
We have dozens of these mounts in use in our Voltsporsche Kit. No failures.
I *have* a Renault LeCar EV. It has a wimpy little ADC 6.7" motor, and a
Curtis 1231C controller turned down to 400 amps max. Yet, I *did* break
the motor mount! It is a clamshell mount; basically a top bar that
connects the LeCar's stock ICE motor mounts, with a half-circle band
around the top half of the motor, and a bolted-on half-circle band
around the bottom half of the motor. The torque was so large that it
tore apart the welded seams between the top 2"x0.25" aluminum bar and
the 2"x0.25" top band.
Ok, this is a welded aluminum clamshell mount, which bears no resemblance
to a welded steel mount bolted to the end of the motor, and supported by
the existing factory motor mount. I would never use aluminum for a motor
mount. Quite likely, the welds were not adequate, which can be a problem
unless you have an experienced aluminum welder.
As for the the strength of the ADC end bell itself, that was designed in
conjunction with the then-owners of
ADC, who were career motor engineers themselves and would certainly know
the power their motor could put out.
I also have a 1965 Corvair with the turbocharged 180hp engine. In my
younger more-foolish days, I *did* rip out the motor mount from the huge
wheel reaction torque. It was a relatively common problem in
high-powered Corvairs.
It was also a common problem on a 40 hp NSU Prinz. But what does that have
to do with an entirely different mount design in an entirely different vehicle?
My whole purpose in the original post was to keep Ben from doing something
that would not be satisfactory and might well damage his motor, when the
solution is so simple: buy the correct end bell.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The main problem I've seen when evaluating STM-180's for my E-Jeep is
sometimes the autowatering doesn't work in a cell and the battery sides must
be visible to see if a cell isn't being filled in the auto watering system.
I decided against putting these in a pack due to this reason. I talked to a
couple folk's on the list who had a battery occasionally get destroyed due
to a dry cell they thought was watered and couldn't see. Also they are 80%
efficient as opposed to 90% efficient leaded so they require a lot more
watering than lead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 4:01 AM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
> > Looking at the weight 3.2 lbs*19 is 60.8 lbs or 365
> > lbs of batteries (I have about 300lbs with 6 SAFT's at
> > 36V currently). So thats 820 Volts in series with
> > 34Ahr capacity. Using 1200V IGBT's I could do an AC
> > induction or BLDC drive to run this cart. 820 Volts
> > nominal or 920V charged, that's scary!!!.
>
> Umm, how did yo get to 820V??!? Where you thinking that these are 6V
> batteries? They are 1.2V cells.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you sure it's because of the Cadmium.
Cadmium is no less common, nor more harmful than lead or mercury. It's a
naturally occuring mineral and is found literally everywhere.
Yes, Disposal can be a hassle, but it's not dangerous as long as it stays
inside the battery.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts5.html
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:52 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
>
> With all this talk about NiCds, may be people know, but I wanted to
> mention
> that their use in OEM EVs has been banned in Europe for environmental
> reasons. Recycling or no recycling no OEM will be allowed to sell and EV
> with NiCd battery in it beginning of this year. Of course, this is because
> cadmium is nastier stuff than even gasoline.
>
> US enthusiasts perhaps couldn't care less what is going on in European
> OEMs,
> but I don't think they (OEMs) would impose such a hardship on themselves
> (many EVs already manufactured cannot be sold since NiCd is no longer
> legal)
> without good reason.
>
> If you do get to use BB600 or whatever, just remember it contains poison
> and
> please them as such.
>
> Perhaps Philippe or Jukka can comment on this situation better.
>
> Victor
>
> --
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
>
> Tim Clevenger wrote:
>
>> Hi Gadget,
>>
>> That works for me. That also takes the pressure off, since if I
>> picked them up in NorCal, I'd be hand-loading them into a rented
>> pickup. :-)
>>
>> I'm not sure how many I'm getting. At least 70, possibly 140.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> ---------
>>
>>>>Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:37:06 -0800 (PST)
>>>
>>>From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
>>>To: [email protected]
>>>
>>>I haven't made any shipping arrangements yet. but let me know how many
>>>are coming to LA and can get quote.
>>>I'm hoping that we can get the shipping below 1 buck a cell. weekend
>>>pick up is no problem as I live in my warehouse. I can even store them
>>>for a little while if that helps anyone.
>>>
>>> Gadget
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
>> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
:^) i don't have such precise answer, i don't have tested BB-600 cells, you
will have to discover their specification yourself but can find nominal from
Marathon company which make/know them.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
> I'm looking at about 20 cycles a month of maybe 75% DOD maximum.
> Could I get away with undercharging enough to water every 30-45
> cycles if I just do an equalizing charge once every two weeks or
> once a month? How quickly could these get out of balance enough to
> reverse a cell at 75% DOD?
>
> Tim
>
> ----------
> > From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
> > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 01:45:11 +0100
> >
> > men, trust me you are going to be disapointed !
> > this cells are not for EV use, their watering can't be centralized and
it's
> > not something you want to make every week not even every month...
> > i have to water 31 cells on the race scooter, hopefuly ultra low
servicing
> > type cells and i definitely would not consider making this on more and
> > standard servicing cells.
> >
> > yes you can undercharge them to obtain low water consumption but you
will
> > quickly unbalance the pack and loose range...they need overcharge to be
in
> > good state.
> >
> > just my 30ml of demineralized water opinion
> >
> > Philippe
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These aircraft starting cells are used in 24V boxes configuration like this
one
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/ApriliaEproject001.jpg
there is no need to central watering system with 20 cells and probably it
would be to complexe to make it "military" proof.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Sppon Fedding BB600's
> I don't know what the voltage is on an aircraft, but
> I'm guessing they use enough cells to use some type of
> automated refill method.
> There should be a watering method already available
> for these, we just need to find a knowledigle source
> associated with their maintence.
>
> Anybody know an aeronautical engineer or technician?
>
> Rod
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ask SW windpower if it has regulating electronics on it's output. Charge
voltage is 46.44V for 36V batteries anyway and the Air-X won't put out much
current, maybe an amp or 2 for golf cart batts 220ah (I assume you're using)
that's like a fly on a camel's back or putting your finger on a brick wall,
not much movement.
Wind and output voltage is all over the map. That's why I use a
boost/regulator on mine that takes 8-30V in and puts out 30V (to charge 24V
batts) regardless of the windspeed. When I just used a diode it wouldn't
charge much. An overcharge regulator might be needed. Do the math on the
charging output for your average annual windspeed vs what the batteries are
and your useage. If the batteries get fully charged, an overcharge
regulator would be required to divert the windmill to your lower hot water
heater element (for something usefull to do). The Air-X is a very small
windmill so unless you get up to a 10' swept area, this would probably not
be necessary. Mine is only 6' 3-blade (Y'd in with a couple photovoltaics)
and doesn't need an overcharge regulator since the doorbell and solar
heating system keep the batteries from overvoltaging. www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:54 AM
Subject: wind charger?
> Ok, I need some input from the electronics wizards on the list (Mark you
> listening?)
>
> I'm in the design phases of my solar charging rig for my I-5 and golf
> cart. I have just had an opportunity to purchase a 48v air X wind
> turbine.
>
> My property has a lot of wind and this is probably a good idea for me.
> What I'm worried about is using a turbine that is designed to charge a
> 48v system to charge a 36v system. Is there an easy way to do this
> without damaging my batteries?
>
> Thanks
>
> James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:48 AM -0800 3-10-05, Steve Marks wrote:
I have two of the DCP DC-DC converters I *intend* to use in the
GhiaMonstster with three of Otmar's HV 1K Zillas at 336V. Do these
power levels make the problem more likely to occur??
Steve
Hi Steve
At this time I have no idea of why the DCP DC-DCs are blowing fuses
and failing. AFAIK they have blown fuses and failed before using DCP
controllers as well as Curtis.
Nick and Mark have raised a question as to if using them with a Zilla
could make them more likely to fail. Specifically since Nick only
started having the problem with his DCP DC-DC after he installed the
Zilla in his car, he is wondering if there is more than a
coincidental connection. I am trying to see a plausible case for the
Zilla somehow affecting the DCP unit, but I don't see a connection
yet.
At this time it is all speculation. Any more real data points would
be most welcome.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the clarification. The Marathons manual that I have is for the
A/A type of cells, too. But the charging recommends for SAFT will no doubt
be different, since the cell innards will differ. Sorry again for the
confusion.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 10:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: FW: BB600 charging
BB600 is a military designation.
Saft, G.E., and Marathon all build and supply to the BB600 spec.
Neither company refers to their own cells as BB600, only the DoD and EVDL
call them BB600 ;-)
and one other note;
These cells are not BB600's they are BB600A/A. The A/A uses a
longerlasting polypropylene separator as opposed to the cellophane
separator in the BB600. Other than the separator, they are the same thing.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rush
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: BB600 charging
>
> Bill,
>
> You had a post before saying that the BB-600 are Marathon cells. Are they?
> We are under the impression that they are Saft cells. Can you elaborate
> more
> on what makes you think that they are Marathon? Is it just the size?
>
> The Invitation for Bid clearly states SAFT AMERICA INC. P/N 017371-000.
>
> Rush
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:23 AM
> Subject: RE: BB600 charging
>
>
>> The BB600 manual that I have from Marathon calls for a 21A CC charge
>> until
>> all cells reach 1.55V, then a 2-hour topping charge of 8.4A.
>>
>> I was planning on attaching an Amp-hour counter to the Nicads, and then
>> putting back approx. 110% of the Amp-hours used to equalize the cells.
>> So
>> if I used 30 Amp-hours, for example, I'd want to put 33 Amp-hours back
>> in.
>> If my charger goes to only 18A, then I'd charge at 18A for an hour,
> followed
>> by 8A for 2 hours. Does that sound right, or is there a better way to
>> do
>> it?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bill Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Maki, Garret
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:43 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: BB600 charging
>>
>> OK, so it looks like a lot of us may be playing with NiCad.
>> What are you planning on using for charging? How advanced does the
> charger
>> need to be? I've only been doing this for a few months now so sorry if
> this
>> has already been discussed.
>> -Garret in Colorado
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.1 - Release Date: 3/9/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Toyota was selling Rav4s. Are they still?
Any other companies?
-Richard Farfel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
true for cadmium which is definitely crap (though quantities are low on our
hobbyist's hands)
about nicad prohibition european law:
nicad batteries use is prohibited in europe since 2004 except for power tool
and industrial application batteries.
For power tools the law will be voted again in 2008.
For industrial batteries, which include electric vehicle ones, no
prohibition !
you will find the whole text here:
http://ue.eu.int/ueDocs/cms_Data/docs/pressData/en/envir/83236.pdf
So they still are the best choice for EV batteries at the moment (imho) but
don't forget nicad batteries must'nt be through away, they have to be
recycled !!!
The actual li-ion are to dangerous in EV use so i'm negociating to test new
Saft NIMH modules: 12V100Ah/C1 for 18kg and...no watering :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
> With all this talk about NiCds, may be people know, but I wanted
> to mention that their use in OEM EVs has been banned in Europe for
> environmental reasons. Recycling or no recycling no OEM will
> be allowed to sell and EV with NiCd battery in it beginning of this
> year. Of course, this is because cadmium is nastier stuff than even
> gasoline.
>
> US enthusiasts perhaps couldn't care less what is going on in
> European OEMs, but I don't think they (OEMs) would impose
> such a hardship on themselves (many EVs already manufactured
> cannot be sold since NiCd is no longer legal) without good reason.
>
> If you do get to use BB600 or whatever, just remember it contains
> poison and please them as such.
>
> Perhaps Philippe or Jukka can comment on this situation better.
>
> Victor
>
> --
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
>
> Tim Clevenger wrote:
>
> > Hi Gadget,
> >
> > That works for me. That also takes the pressure off, since if
> > I picked them up in NorCal, I'd be hand-loading them into
> > a rented pickup. :-)
> >
> > I'm not sure how many I'm getting. At least 70, possibly 140.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > ---------
> >
> >>>Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 20:37:06 -0800 (PST)
> >>
> >>From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells: SoCal & NorCal group buy?
> >>To: [email protected]
> >>
> >>I haven't made any shipping arrangements yet. but let
> >>me know how many are coming to LA and can get quote.
> >>I'm hoping that we can get the shipping below 1 buck a
> >>cell. weekend pick up is no problem as I live in my
> >>warehouse. I can even store them for a little while if
> >>that helps anyone.
> >>
> >> Gadget
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
or Saft or whatever :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
> :^) i don't have such precise answer, i don't have tested BB-600 cells,
you
> will have to discover their specification yourself but can find nominal
from
> Marathon company which make/know them.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Marks wrote:
I have two of the DCP DC-DC converters I *intend* to use in the
GhiaMonstster with three of Otmar's HV 1K Zillas at 336V. Do these
power levels make the problem more likely to occur??
If our theory is correct, then you will likely have problems. Having
two converters may help by reducing the load on each, but your high
current draw will likely cause significant voltage swings.
This is just a theory based on very little information (only two data
points). I wouldn't worry about it yet. There is nothing you can do
about it short of buying a different DC/DC, and there are none to choose
from.
I am going to try hooking up a large filter capacitor to the input
terminals of the DC/DC and see if that alleviates the issue any. If it
does it help it would tend to prove the theory.
Have to check my junk bin... will a 250V cap be ok in my 180VDC pack
(final charge voltage is about 233VDC). How much capacitance should I
start out with?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Brown wrote:
> We have dozens of these mounts in use in our Voltsporsche Kit.
> No failures.
That's good! Any idea how high-powered the controllers are, or how much
these cars get driven?
>> I *have* a Renault LeCar EV. It has a wimpy little ADC 6.7" motor,
>> and a Curtis 1231C controller turned down to 400 amps max. Yet,
>> I *did* break the motor mount! It is a clamshell mount...
> Ok, this is a welded aluminum clamshell mount, which bears no
> resemblance to a welded steel mount bolted to the end of the motor
Agreed. However, it is the best example I have. Understand that this
mount was made for John Wayland at Ecar, and that it worked for Dick
Finley's and Lou Tauber's LeCars, which were considerably higher powered
than mine. It looks plenty strong. In fact, on occasion I have picked up
the entire front end of the car with this mount. That means it can
handle at least 1000 lbs of force.
And yet, it broke. This implies that the force on it was a lot more than
a mere 1000 lbs. And when I looked closer at the design, I can see how
the forces got so large. My guess is that if I tried mounting the motor
in this car by the end bell, I would have broken that instead.
> Quite likely, the welds were not adequate, which can be a problem
> unless you have an experienced aluminum welder.
Possible; but it didn't just break the welds. It also twisted the metal
in a way that implies that an extremely large downward force was
applied.
> As for the the strength of the ADC end bell itself, that was
> designed in conjunction with the then-owners of ADC, who were
> career motor engineers themselves and would certainly know the
> power their motor could put out.
Agreed. It would be rational for them to make it strong enough to handle
all the force the motor itself could produce. But in this case (Porsche
914, Renault LeCar, Chevy Corvair), it has to handle many times more
torque due to the torque multiplication of the transmission and
differential.
>> I also have a 1965 Corvair with the turbocharged 180hp engine.
>> In my younger more-foolish days, I *did* rip out the motor
>> mount from the huge wheel reaction torque.
> It was also a common problem on a 40 hp NSU Prinz. But what does
> that have to do with an entirely different mount design in an
> entirely different vehicle?
Because it illustrates the same principle. The Corvair engine mount
originally had a single 3/8" bolt. It would pull this bolt's head right
through the mounting plate -- an indication of many thousands of pounds
of force. They learned, and changed the design to double the thickness
of the plate and use two bolts.
> My whole purpose in the original post was to keep Ben from doing
> something that would not be satisfactory and might well damage his
> motor, when the solution is so simple: Buy the correct end bell.
That is of course the best answer. It would be as strong as this type of
mount is likely to get. I'm just worried that it still may not be strong
enough.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ot and Nick and Listers.
I will get the Z2K running on Goldie Like today of this weekend.. Goldie has
a DCP DC/DC.
The DCP has a ton of DC ripple caps inside it also. They are basicly the
same as The Zillia and teh T-REX used.
So What is the clear issue?? the DC high voltage fuse gets wacked, when the
Zilla turns on??? This looks like a isolation issue from Motive pack to
House 12 volts.
The DCP had LOTs of iso... and we tested for it. But the "Green Fuzz" issue
may violate this feature.
Funny that both Fails are in Texas....
I will find out... I hope I don't loose anything expensive... I can Handle a
DC to DC , Ot's gonna kick my butt if I hurt a Hair ball or a Zilla.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
> At 11:19 AM -0600 3-10-05, Mark Farver wrote:
> >Lee Hart wrote:
> >>Well, let's think about it.
> >>
> >>The DC/DC input probably has an input fuse, and a big filter capacitor
> >>inside. If the pack voltage changes very rapidly, there will be a large
> >>surge current as the capacitors charge or discharge. This surge current
> >>can blow the fuse.
> >>
> >Both Rudman and the Alltrax folks felt the only event that would
> >cause the input fuse to blow was repeated high inrush currents. For
> >example: switching the DC/DC off the ignition or a bad/loose HV wire
> >to the unit. The DC/DC has an inrush limiter, but it appears to be
> >a small thermal device.
> >So the problem could be as Lee suggests: pack voltage swings caused
> >by the Zilla. That would explain why the unit never failed on
> >Alltrax's test bench. It would also explain why Nick with sagging
> >pack of floodeds blows the fuse more often than I do with my stiffer
> >pack of Optimas (except when my car is driven by certain lead footed
> >individuals).
> >If that is the case there isn't much that can be done about the issue.
> >Once again I ask who out there is using the DCP DC/DC with the
> >Zilla, or with other high current (TREX/Raptor 1200) controllers.
> >Has anyone else seen this issue?
> >
> >Mark Farver
>
> I would also like to know if anyone else is seeing any problems
> particular to the Zilla and DCP DC-DC. Also it would be interesting
> to know who else (like Mark Hanson) is having problems with the DCP
> converter while using other controllers.
>
> I doubt that fast input voltage spikes are causing problems. The Z1K
> has over 4000 uF of filter cap on the battery which keeps the battery
> voltage pretty smooth. I would be very surprised if the DCP DC to DC
> was not designed to handle that small amount of noise on the battery
> input. If one wanted to test for this, a inductor could be added to
> the power line to the DCP to see if it resolves the problem.
>
> If the DCP converter is having trouble with slow voltage changes due
> to battery sag, then that certainly is a design problem. An easy way
> to verify this would be to turn the Zilla down to the power level of
> other controllers and see if the fuse takes stops blowing.
>
> This of course is not helpful to Nick who's controller is no longer
> functioning, but maybe Mark could try it out?
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark of course I do.
The DCP Dc/DC was tested on Goldie and with a Raptor 1200, That can suck
1000 amps in pulses... I have the Data files... and this was just a couple
of Days ago, So the silicon is still up to the argument. I have had a DCP
on Goldie from about 1999, and It's been down the Woodburn, Bremerton, and
Portland tracks at full amps and like 90 volts of Sagging Yts. So... Brown
out is NOT the issue. In fact one of the design points was 48 volts and they
still make 1/2 peak output power. they brown out very gracefully, and the
input current IS controlled and protected, just so it does NOT pull a a TODD
and blow up from a momentary brown out.
So believe me Me the DCP controllers and the DCP DC/DC don't
have any issues working together.
This leaves the change in Otmar's pall park. Or in the possibility that
there is contamination across the isolation boundry from the Chassis 12
volts and the Main battery voltage.
Otmar and I will find out what the issue is, since My DC/DC has years of
Seattle corosion on it, and I am about to Zillaize Goldie.
Stay tuned...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Farver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 9:19 AM
Subject: DCP DC/DC used with Zilla was Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >Otmar wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>I don't see any way that the Zilla could have contributed to its
> >>>demise. But you never know, I may be missing something.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >Nick Viera wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Once again, I'm not blaming the Zilla, Otmar... but it is rather
> >>strange that I NEVER had any problems with the DC/DC blowing its
> >>input fuse PRIOR to installing the Zilla. Maybe just a bad
> >>coincidence? or?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well, let's think about it.
> >
> >The DC/DC input probably has an input fuse, and a big filter capacitor
> >inside. If the pack voltage changes very rapidly, there will be a large
> >surge current as the capacitors charge or discharge. This surge current
> >can blow the fuse.
> >
> >
> Both Rudman and the Alltrax folks felt the only event that would cause the
input fuse to blow was repeated high inrush currents. For example:
switching the DC/DC off the ignition or a bad/loose HV wire to the unit.
The DC/DC has an inrush limiter, but it appears to be a small thermal
device.
>
> So the problem could be as Lee suggests: pack voltage swings caused by the
Zilla. That would explain why the unit never failed on Alltrax's test
bench. It would also explain why Nick with sagging pack of floodeds blows
the fuse more often than I do with my stiffer pack of Optimas (except when
my car is driven by certain lead footed individuals).
>
> If that is the case there isn't much that can be done about the issue.
>
> Once again I ask who out there is using the DCP DC/DC with the Zilla, or
with other high current (TREX/Raptor 1200) controllers. Has anyone else
seen this issue?
>
> Mark Farver
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick??
Want the Schematic to the DCP DC/DC????
I have it.
Also the Carnage is most likley under the PCB and on top of the heat sink.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
> Hi,
>
> Just to clarify again: Yes, my DC/DC is now 100% DEAD. After it shot
> sparks, that was the end of it, period. Though, upon inspecting it, Mark
> and I could not find any signs of damage at all. That is very strange.
>
> > I don't see any way that the Zilla could have contributed to its
> > demise. But you never know, I may be missing something.
>
> Once again, I'm not blaming the Zilla, Otmar... but it is rather strange
> that I NEVER had any problems with the DC/DC blowing its input fuse
> PRIOR to installing the Zilla. Maybe just a bad coincidence? or?
>
> > Since you are running power steering, I would suggest a DC-DC of at
> > least 50 amps, and 75 would be a normal amount.Plus, you should have
> > a good surge battery.
>
> I too really want a 50+ amp DC/DC. When I was buying components, I
> couldn't find anyone who made one that could handle up to 210 volts
> input. IMO, The Hawker AGM I have does an excellent job handling high
> current surges. It just can't do so for very long as it is only 16ah. I
> really don't want to put something as heavy as a Yellow top in their...
>
> Basically, I've got to find a new DC/DC converter or see if I can get
> the DCP one fixed (sure hope I can as it wasn't a cheap unit). What I
> _really_ want to do is design/build my own, because I enjoy working with
> electronics. However, I have little experience with power electronics,
> so I need to do more homework before I can design a circuit. I'm going
> to start working with some flyback converter circuits and see what I can
> come up with. But in the mean time, I've got to get a working DC/DC in
> the Jeep so I can get it back on the road.
>
> Thanks,
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
--- End Message ---
