EV Digest 4203
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Where is all the power going?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Perf Upgrade using EV components
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor Horsepower questions.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV-1 Blurb in AZ Republic
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Renualt LeCar
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AZ Republic blurb
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Photo of RAV4?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Renualt LeCar
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Photo of RAV4?
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Photo of RAV4?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Edward Deming is rolling over in his grave.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Photo of RAV4?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: federal $$ spent on EV1?
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New EV Dragster
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Rabbit replacement
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Transistor Votage Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: federal $$ spent on EV1?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: E-Meter Madness
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Renualt LeCar
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fiero range
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Does anyone have any suggestions on where to start on identifying the
reasons for high power usage in an EV? My Force only uses about 200 watt
hours per mile (measured from the batteries), while my Civic is more like
325 to 350. Both are small aero cars, one is AC one is DC, and of course
the Force has regen, but I don't think the difference should be so large.
My thinking is this, either the Civic is requiring too much power to push
due to drag issues, or the motor controller and battery combo have some
sort of issue causing them to use to much electricity. So, any ideas on
how I can identify the problem?
Id do have some thoughts: Excess brake drag, a noisy transmission, a bad
battery or to and so forth. I am just not sure where to start. This car
has never been particularly efficient, but I can't find a good reason why
it doesn't do better. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for your comments! They make me feel like I wasn't totally off in
left field. Comment #4 about the handbrake drum was exactly what I was
pursuing. The bearing side load was also a concern for me but if an sideload
can be exerted at the opposite side, this would take care of that. I envision
widening the brake drum to increase surface area for a tire mounted to an ev
motor for sufficient traction/friction. The opposing force would be another
tire mounted to an alternator/generator for regen but will spin freely when the
motor is powered up and when regen is needed, bring the circuit into play on
the alternator.. This seems to be a simple setup. Has anyone tried this?
----- Original Message -----
From: James Massey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: Perf Upgrade using EV components
At 10:30 AM 18/03/05 -0800, Gabe Alarcon wrote:
>I am looking to enhance the performance of my Mitsu Fuso truck weighing in
>at 11,300 lbs, loaded. It has a 4 cyl turbo diesel and all I can find
>from diesel shops are typical ICE upgrades, chips, larger injectors,
>larger turbos, etc. There is a lot of room for batteries under this thing
><snip> All comments appreciated.
Hi Gabe (and all)
I have had similar thoughts with my Toyta Dyna (4000kg GVM), and came up
with the following thoughts (if I can remember all of them, and the order
of them):
1) My truck max speed is 130km/h (around 80mph) and spends much of its life
around town at 0 to 80km/h. As such a motor could be coupled into the
tailshaft (ie single speed ratio), with max RPM allowable ratio-ed at
130km/h, and very useable tourque at normal speeds.
2) Assuming 5th gear is straight through (1:1 in the gearbox) then the
tailshaft maximum is around 3750RPM, well below maximum for a smallish
EV-type motor, but OK for a larger forklift-type motor.
3) Were the driveshaft longer, it would be possible to put a motor in the
tailshaft, mounted to be in-line with the gearbox, and a shorter tailshaft
with universal joints to the diff. But my vehicle has not enough room
(length-wise) to do this, but yours might.
3a) were there the length-wise space, it would be possible to put a motor
between the diesel and the gearbox. If there were a dog- or other clutch
between the diesel and the electric, it would be possible to have a few
miles of EV-only mode that still has the use of the gearbox, AND use the
motor to start the diesel (saving wear on the $tarter motor).
4) The handbrake is on the back end of the gearbox. A pulley could be put
onto this point, and a motor set up laid paralell to the gearbox, with a
ratio to allow higher motor RPMs. What I don't know is if the gearbox rear
bearing could cope with the side-load, or if an additional carrier bearing
would be needed.
5) due to the steep hills here, there is a need to have a gearbox, so there
is no practicality to a tailshaft-drive EV only mode without a BIG motor.
6) Such a modification would make it a rocket off the line (relatively
speaking, of course).
7) the small battery pack that would be needed (so as to not loose more
than gain, by hauling extra weight) would need frequent recharge in order
to get good benefit, ie regen.
8) the regen requirement changed the ballgame - a shunt motor with some
fairly smart control or a brushless DC or an AC motor then became required.
9) the motor became a 'too hard basket' problem, and I stopped thinking
about hybridizing the Toyota truck and gave myself a mental slap and told
myself to concentrate on the conversion in progress.
But that hasn't stopped me thinking about converting one of our Nissan
Skylines'. The Dyna may get a revisit in future if the price of fuel keeps
going the way it has been ($1.17 aus per litre, around $3.70 US/gallon, for
diesel).
You asked for comments, that's mine!
Regards
James.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> > Of the currently available AC motors, is there ONE of them that
> > would out perform your current setup of 2 DC motors?
>
> It's not the motor; it's the inverter. If you can find a way to generate
> enough kilowatts of AC, then an AC motor will match a DC motor, pound
> for pound. The AC motor might even be able to top the HP/lb of a DC
> motor by running at a higher rpm.
Let's say for example, Otmar builds an AC inverter that is equal to
the Z2K. Is there an AC motor on this page that will do the work and
then some that his current setup of TWO DC motors is doing? (12's in
the 1/4 instead of 13's for example)
http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm
I was under the impression of why people throw on two or three DC
motors is because a single motor of suitable size can't be had to do
the work of two or three?
Example: I can't make one 9" motor outperform someones setup who has
two or three motors?
Can an 11" or 13" motor win in a drag race when up against two or
three 8" or 9" motors?
Can a Zilla not be "transformed" or "modified" into being an inverter?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whoa there fella...
I sure do hope you mean the rush limbaugh, not me!!!!!!!
I ain't no neo-con or slimer....
Rush
Tucson AZ
>> I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ Republic is run by
>> some neo-con Rush
>> Slimeball type media conglomerate.
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick wrote:
> Everytime I read, or in this case, hear something from GM's
> spokesman, I get a fogged up vision of some small group of
> people huddled in a mindmelt, trying their best to come up
> with some buzz phrases to write into script form... I'm not
> buying it.
Whenever I read a news story in the mass media that I have independent
knowledge about, I can see the bias, errors, omissions, and outright
"spin doctoring".
But if I don't know anything about the story, the facts as presented
seem to make a reasonable, plausible case for one side being rational
and sincere, and the other side being a bunch of irrational nuts.
Sadly, the EV1 stories fit this mold perfectly. To the vast majority of
the American public, GM's corporate lies sound like the truth. And the
EV1 enthusiasts come across as nuts.
We have to appreciate that GM has hired *experts* at propaganda and
spin-doctoring. They are *good* at it! They know exactly how to "work"
the media to get exactly the story they want, and make the other side
look like incompetent fools.
> None of the car makers are doing me any favors with their EV programs.
> It's been a disgusting several years of reading and hearing the lies,
> myths and lame-brained excuses that are shovelled out of the offical
> chute of each company.
I couldn't agree more. People call me a skeptic for refusing to believe
press releases about "miracle batteries" and "this wonderful new
electric car will be in production soon!" But I've been around EVs a
long time. In the long run, they never get built or sold, and all these
self-serving propaganda pieces get-rich-quick schemes end up HURTING the
EV movement.
The only way to combat this is for the EV community to get its act
together, and set up a really efficient organization with effective
lobbyists and spokespersons. Other fields have done this with great
success. I've mentioned the ARRL (American Radio Relay League, for
amateur radio operators) and the EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association)
as prime examples before.
If we *don't* get organized, EVs are going to continue to be
marginalized, ridiculed, and eventually made outright illegal!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
there is a spring in fact, a rubber spring, the piston ring washer is
designed to be a "microm�tric spring"
Maybe it is the "translation" system which has a problem, you should be able
to move freely the whole assembly (without pads)
piston pad should move freely "along" is location too.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: Renualt LeCar
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> >
> > Its a known problem on this old cars, the rubber isn't enough elastic
> > anymore to make piston came back when you release the brakes pedal.
> > Cleaning all and changing all caliper rubber washer is the only solution
i
> > know.
>
> Even with that, if you push the pistons back into the cylinders, the
> pads still rest against the rotor and drag. There is no spring to pull
> them away.
>
> With drum brakes, there is always a physical spring to mechanically pull
> the shoes away from the drum. So, I have always found it possible to
> adjust them so the shoes don't touch at all.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Disagreeing with the vigilers tactics is no good
reason to mock and insult them. In the last 9 months,
protests and vigils have saved hundreds of electric
Thinks and dozens of electric Ranger trucks (probably
more) from being destroyed, and the RAV4s are next.
How many EVs have you kept on the road lately?
For every media blurb that made the EV1 vigilers look
like nutters, there were others that gave millions of
Americans some insight into the existence and the
advantages of EVs.
I agree with you, though, that there presently isn't
enough demand for EVs to make a standard business
proposal for an EV production business. We may have
different ideas on why that is, and whether that can
change. It's hard to show massive demand if there are
no affordable mass-produced EVs. There as no evidence
of massive demand for hybrids until hybrids came to
market.
After saving as many existing EVs as we can, I think
the challenge for the EV movement is to build that
demand in the public and in politicians. What's clear
to me from reading your post is that different selling
points work for different people, and perhaps
different parts of the country. What sells in
Cleveland may be different than what sells in San
Francisco.
All the people I've met who have bought Prius hybrids
did so specifically out of environmental impulses. So
if we design campaigns to build demand for EVs, we
should use what you call "enviro-bleating" in Northern
California (among other selling points), and perhaps
use other strategies in Ohio.
Regulations related to the environment are what
brought production EVs to the market up to now.
Concerns (and regulations) about the environment and
about national security (dependence on foreign oil and
gas) are what will bring the next generation of EVs or
plug-in hybrids to market, I think.
And yes, I eat granola bars. But I like BBQ too. ;-)
Sherry
Neon John wrote:
You're being mocked all over the country. It's really
a pretty sad
joke to the rest of us.
Example: the only coverage in this area was in the
Page 2 section of
the paper that I call "Stars Behaving Badly". You
know, where they
report on who is screwing whom in Hollywood and what
rap star was
arrested for what crime in the last 24 hours.
The blurb was about a BoobWatch, er, BayWatch "all
silicone all the
time" star being arrested for blocking a truck at a GM
facility during
a "save the EV1" demonstration. (average reader: WTF
is an EV1?)
Having tossed the TV several years ago I didn't know
who Chelsea was
until I saw that article. Now I do. Only because I
am involved with
EVs did I know what kind of fruitcake cause the
demonstration was
about.
What I continue to wonder about is this. If there is
this huge demand
out there for production EVs then why isn't someone
building them?
No, not the Big Guys. Tuner shops like Rousch and
Saleen and
Lingenfelter who take production vehicles and turn
them into hotrods.
Why aren't there shops that have selected a model to
specialize in
(like the Saleen Mustang), designed and built an
OEM-quality EV
drivetrain and put 'em on the market? There are
plenty of rich folks
out there who want to look green who would fund such a
startup if
there was a business case to be made. If you offer
the appropriate
product then the Big Guys will sell your product.
Just like you can
buy a Saleen Mustang from a Ford dealer.
That's the key, I think. There IS NO DEMAND, at least
none that
matters commercially. A few hundred True Believers do
not a market
make. When someone makes the case for there being a
market using
generally accepted methods for the industry (NOT
internet petitions or
email bombings or phone trees or....) then the money
will be
forthcoming.
I don't see this as being a whole lot different than
my BBQ
restaurant. I love BBQ, could eat it 3 meals a day
and don't quite
understand why everyone else doesn't. Yet my sober
side believes the
National Restaurant Association statistics that say
that only about 2%
of the meal parts go to BBQ joints. I could believe
with all my heart
in my product and the demand I think should be out
there but if I
planned my business accordingly I'd go bust.
If pure EVs ever have a chance (and I don't think they
do) then the
advocates are going to have to stop acting like
nutcakes and start
selling the product on it real merits. No gas
stations, no gas fumes,
no engine, cheaper operation. The environmental
claims either trigger
a yawn or the person's lie detector, depending on how
much he
understands how electricity is generated and
distributed. In the real
world and not some fanciful never-never land.
Brands and segments tend to develop stereotype public
images. I got
rid of my gorgeous 635CSi simply because I got tired
of being
classified with all the yuppie assholes who now drive
BMWs. Or think
what pops to mind when you hear "SUV". Does the same
thing happen
when you hear "Pickup Truck"? Essentially the same
vehicles.
Buick and Pontiac lost the fight to change their
images as brands for
geezers. Similarly, the image of an EV driver is that
of a fruity left
coast granola eating tree hugging nutcake. I don't
know how many
times I've gotten a variation of the theme "I KNOW
you're not an
enviro-whacko so why the EV?"
Answer: because it's fun, it's cheap to operate, I
don't have to deal
with the high school dropouts at the gas stations, I
refuel at home
and it fits my around town transportation needs better
than my regular
cars. THESE are the selling points that will win
people over. No
enviro-bleating necessary.
That is going to be a very difficult image to
overcome. Silly stuff
like this sit-in only make things worse. I suspect
that one of the
main reasons hybrids are doing so well right now is
precisely because
they had no public image attached going in.
Something for you True Believers to think about as you
munch on your
granola bars....
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anybody here have a photo of the RAV4EV that they took, and want to
release under the free documentation license for Wikipedia?
I noted that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV is missing
a photo.
Also, does anybody want to add more information to the RAV4 EV page on
wikipedia?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
> there is a spring in fact, a rubber spring, the piston ring washer is
> designed to be a "microm�tric spring"
Are you talking about calipers such as these?
http://www.grandwagoneers.com/images/large/gw_brake_caliper_2_large.jpg
http://www.solace.net/240Z-forsale/brake-caliper-mounted.jpg
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november01/images/g25.jpg
This one shows the tool that can be used to press the piston back in
when doing a pad change(can cause the master cylinder to overflow so
be aware...)
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/tech/lincoln-mark-viii/Brake-Pads-Rotors/Lincoln-Cadillac%20007.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 19 Mar 2005, Nick Austin wrote:
Does anybody here have a photo of the RAV4EV that they took, and want to
release under the free documentation license for Wikipedia?
I noted that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV is missing
a photo.
Also, does anybody want to add more information to the RAV4 EV page on
wikipedia?
http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/rav4ev/
will shortly have 3 full res shots I just exported from iPhoto,taken at
the Green St garage in Cambridge MA of ZipCar RAV4EVs.
If they are suitable, consider them to be licensed to suit you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> Does anybody here have a photo of the RAV4EV that they took, and want to
> release under the free documentation license for Wikipedia?
>
> I noted that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV is missing
> a photo.
Lots of pics..
http://images.google.com/images?q=RAV4EV&hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&sa=N&tab=wi
Maybe one of those can be used(as a "placeholder" if nothing else).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<rant>
First, let me say I loved the EV1, it was a great piece of engeneering
and the people who stood up to GM forever have a place in my heart, by
the time I found out about the EV1, they wern't available, great
advertising :-(.
At the same time, I get a slight chuckle out of this whole EV-1 thing,
Edward deming must be rolling over in his grave. For those of you few
that don't know who he was, he is the guy that told the american auto
companies how to turn things around, they told him to take a hike. We
then sent him to japan to help them rebuild after the war.
They listened. I find it amazing that I will live to see history
repeat as foriegn car companies will again wipe the pavement with the
american car companies.
When it is time for americans to panic and get off the gas guzzlers,
they will jump to hybrids, then electrics while the amercan car makers
will be makeing show pieces of technology that can't be entrusted to the
general population. I think we the people had better work on the
injuction to prevent government bailout, if that option isn't there,
maybe the auto compnies will think twice.
But all's well that ends well. 90% of a fuel cell vehicle is an EV, we
will just gut them or turn off the fool cell and increase the "boost"
pack, sort of a built in range extender trailer.
</rant>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
Does anybody here have a photo of the RAV4EV that they took, and want to
release under the free documentation license for Wikipedia?
I noted that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV is missing
a photo.
Also, does anybody want to add more information to the RAV4 EV page on
wikipedia?
Thanks!
I you can find info and pictures at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/412.html
Just check with Patty to make sure she is okay with posting them though.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Personal insults are against the list charter. Take your crap somewhere else.
Tim
-------
> > From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: AZ Republic Blurb
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:00:30 -0500
>
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:20:49 -0800, Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >Chip hit the nail right on the head.
> >We are being mocked in Arizona. First by the police detaining Chelsea.
> >Now this little dig at the event.
>
> You're being mocked all over the country. It's really a pretty sad
> joke to the rest of us.
>
> Example: the only coverage in this area was in the Page 2 section of
> the paper that I call "Stars Behaving Badly". You know, where they
> report on who is screwing whom in Hollywood and what rap star was
> arrested for what crime in the last 24 hours.
>
> The blurb was about a BoobWatch, er, BayWatch "all silicone all the
> time" star being arrested for blocking a truck at a GM facility during
> a "save the EV1" demonstration. (average reader: WTF is an EV1?)
> Having tossed the TV several years ago I didn't know who Chelsea was
> until I saw that article. Now I do. Only because I am involved with
> EVs did I know what kind of fruitcake cause the demonstration was
> about.
>
> What I continue to wonder about is this. If there is this huge demand
> out there for production EVs then why isn't someone building them?
> No, not the Big Guys. Tuner shops like Rousch and Saleen and
> Lingenfelter who take production vehicles and turn them into hotrods.
> Why aren't there shops that have selected a model to specialize in
> (like the Saleen Mustang), designed and built an OEM-quality EV
> drivetrain and put 'em on the market? There are plenty of rich folks
> out there who want to look green who would fund such a startup if
> there was a business case to be made. If you offer the appropriate
> product then the Big Guys will sell your product. Just like you can
> buy a Saleen Mustang from a Ford dealer.
>
> That's the key, I think. There IS NO DEMAND, at least none that
> matters commercially. A few hundred True Believers do not a market
> make. When someone makes the case for there being a market using
> generally accepted methods for the industry (NOT internet petitions or
> email bombings or phone trees or....) then the money will be
> forthcoming.
>
> I don't see this as being a whole lot different than my BBQ
> restaurant. I love BBQ, could eat it 3 meals a day and don't quite
> understand why everyone else doesn't. Yet my sober side believes the
> National Restaurant Association statistics that say that only about 2%
> of the meal parts go to BBQ joints. I could believe with all my heart
> in my product and the demand I think should be out there but if I
> planned my business accordingly I'd go bust.
>
> If pure EVs ever have a chance (and I don't think they do) then the
> advocates are going to have to stop acting like nutcakes and start
> selling the product on it real merits. No gas stations, no gas fumes,
> no engine, cheaper operation. The environmental claims either trigger
> a yawn or the person's lie detector, depending on how much he
> understands how electricity is generated and distributed. In the real
> world and not some fanciful never-never land.
>
> Brands and segments tend to develop stereotype public images. I got
> rid of my gorgeous 635CSi simply because I got tired of being
> classified with all the yuppie assholes who now drive BMWs. Or think
> what pops to mind when you hear "SUV". Does the same thing happen
> when you hear "Pickup Truck"? Essentially the same vehicles.
>
> Buick and Pontiac lost the fight to change their images as brands for
> geezers. Similarly, the image of an EV driver is that of a fruity left
> coast granola eating tree hugging nutcake. I don't know how many
> times I've gotten a variation of the theme "I KNOW you're not an
> enviro-whacko so why the EV?"
>
> Answer: because it's fun, it's cheap to operate, I don't have to deal
> with the high school dropouts at the gas stations, I refuel at home
> and it fits my around town transportation needs better than my regular
> cars. THESE are the selling points that will win people over. No
> enviro-bleating necessary.
>
> That is going to be a very difficult image to overcome. Silly stuff
> like this sit-in only make things worse. I suspect that one of the
> main reasons hybrids are doing so well right now is precisely because
> they had no public image attached going in.
>
> Something for you True Believers to think about as you munch on your
> granola bars....
>
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
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The EV1 cost $1 billion to develop. Note that this included designing all new
parts, custom batteries and putting together the production line for the car.
And, because of some kind of contract with its suppliers, GM was required to
use its own subdivisions and suppliers to start off with. That meant Delco-
Remy batteries specially designed for the EV1. In reality, it could have been
done for a lot less money.
I don't remember where I found it, but the last redesign of the Ford Explorer
was $1.2 billion, and that included using a lot of leftover parts from the old
Explorer and Ford's standard parts bin.
Tim
-----
> > From: Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: federal $$ spent on EV1?
> To: [email protected] (EVDL list)
> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:14:13 -0800 (PST)
>
> does someone have the numbers regarding the amount of federal money that
> GM used to develop the EV1? I'm trying to gather all the facts I can on
> the subject... from what I understand GM spent a total of about $1billion
> developing the EV1, and I'd heard that they spend as much rolling out a
> new year's version of a Saturn, too... anyone have solid figures on that,
> too?
>
> thnx in advance
> sam
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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John Emde, Karl Klein and Kevin Zak wrote:
> The time has come to introduce ourselves as future players in the
> Electric Vehicle arena. Many of you know us from our past association
> with a great group of guys ... NetGain Technologies, LLC.
>
> While NetGain is diligently working to improve what are already the best
> electric motors on the planet - the WarP Motors - and developing other
> areas of advanced EV technology, we decided to have fun.
>
> We built a new Battery Powered Dragster - "Aggravated Battery".
> Although it has not seen the track yet, we dream of good things. We are
> anxious for the Chicago weather to break - ushering in the start of the
> drag racing season here in the Midwest.
>
> Hope to see you trackside.
When are you going to run this beast down the track?
http://www.go-ev.com/racing-ba.html
I want to see what that 13" motor will do!
Run that, run your new one, run something! It's like time is standing still.
http://www.nedra.com/hedlund_100mph_club.html
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Neon John wrote:
> If there is this huge demand out there for production EVs then why
> isn't someone building them? ... That's the key, I think. There IS
> NO DEMAND, at least none that matters commercially. A few hundred
> True Believers do not a market make.
>
> I don't see this as being a whole lot different than my BBQ
> restaurant. I love BBQ, could eat it 3 meals a day and don't quite
> understand why everyone else doesn't. Yet my sober side believes
> the National Restaurant Association statistics that say that only
> about 2% of the meal parts go to BBQ joints. I could believe with
> all my heart in my product and the demand I think should be out
> there but if I planned my business accordingly I'd go bust.
I think your restaurant analogy is a good one. Let's expand on it.
Suppose that nationwide 2% of all restaurants are BBQ joints. Well,
there are hundreds of thousands of restaurants; 2% of that is an
*enormous* number! With a BBQ franchise, you could get rich! Challenge
McDonalds! Change the way people eat!
You may have the recipie, and folks love your restaurant. But, are you a
Ray Kroc or Colonel Saunders? Do you have the business acumen, and
financial resources and know-how to set up a nationwide chain? It could
be that there's nothing wrong with your food or restaurant, but you lack
the resources to expand it.
I think this is the problem with EVs. It's not a problem with EVs
themselves. The "true believers" know how to build them, and know that
they work. But (so far) they have lacked the marketing and manufacturing
skills to expand it into a going business.
When people have tried to set up EV businesses (CitiCar, Jet Industries,
US Electricar, Corbin), we often find that they have personal flaws,
inadequate funding, or simply makes mistakes that prove fatal to their
business. For a small business, one big mistake means death!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Honesty forces me to admit one other idea for an EV conversion: Some
huge SUV, perhaps a Hummer.
You are bound to ask, "Are you nuts? Why convert such a monster into an
EV?" Well, I'll tell you why.
- It's what Americans think they want -- a safe roomy go-anywere
vehicle with lots of load-carrying capacity [sic].
- It gets terrible gas mileage; making it into an EV fixes it.
and, the pie'ce de re'sistance...
- It's so big and heavy that you can get a *huge* tax credit,
essentially writing off the entire cost in just one year.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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> what I'm trying to accomplish is actually a little different
> than my original question. I want the Collector/Emitter of the
> transistor to dissipate all the power.
You can do this, but it requires a transistor with about 4 times the
power rating (for a given bypass current). It is a better design to use
a resistor in series with the transistor. You size the resistor to
dissipate all the power when the transistor is fully on. When the
transistor is half on (bypassing half the current), it also see half the
voltage. This the the point where power dissipation in the transistor
reaches it maximum. Thus, its worst-case power dissipation is only 1/4th
of what it would have been if there was no series resistor and the
transistor had to dissipate it all.
> The collector of the NPN Darlington is attached the battery + and
> the emitter to battery -, just like Victor's clamper circuit. The
> resistor on the base in this case is just to limit the base current
> to 50mA, which is all the current that the opto can handle.
Here is the basic circuit I think you want. View with a fixed-width font
like Courier New or FixedSys:
+Cell___________________________
| | |
> R1 > R3 |
> 17.5k > 1k |
> 1% > |/ emitter
| |___________| Q1: 2N5194, MJE2955, etc.
| C1 _|_ base| PNP transistor
| 0.01uF _\_/_ |\ collector
|____||____| U1: LED of |
| || | optocoupler |
| \_|_ |
|---------/_\\ |
| | D1: TL431 > R4
> R2 | adjustable > 2 ohms
> 25k | "zener" > 10 watt
> 1% | |
-Cell__|__________|_____________|
D1 is an IC that functions as an adjustable zener diode. It's zener
voltage is V = 2.5v x (1 + R1/R2) = 2.5 x (1 + 17.5/25) = 4.25v. Pick
the values of R1 and R2 for whatever voltage you want.
C1 is a capacitor to slow down the response so it doesn't try to clamp
every tiny little pulse of voltage over 4.25v, but instead holds the
average value at 4.25v.
R3 is not critical; it just makes sure Q1 turns completely off even if
it is hot.
R4 dissipates most of your heat. The value chosen above is to bypass 2
amps maximum (because I = 4.25v/2ohms = 2.13 amps). At 2 amps is
dissipates P = 4.25v x 2.13a = 9 watts, so a 10 watt resistor is the
smallest you can use (and it will get hot)!
Q1 is a PNP bipolar transistor. You don't need a darlington for this
circuit, because even bipolars have a gain of 50 or so. This means 2
amps of collector current requires 2/50 = 0.04 amps (40ma) of base
current -- U1 and D1 can easily handle this.
U1 is the LED of an optocoupler. It will "turn on" when the circuit
begins bypassing current. The output side of this optocoupler can
operate an indicator or circuit to control the charger.
Not shown is a fuse and a thermal cutout. Both should be used, to handle
fault conditions safely.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Tim Clevenger wrote:
>
> I don't remember where I found it, but the last redesign of the Ford Explorer
> was $1.2 billion, and that included using a lot of leftover parts from the old
> Explorer and Ford's standard parts bin.
That Explorer is one of the strangest vehicles.. Next time you are
behind one of them at a stop light, take notice of it's rear
suspension. I've seen coil springs, a standard pack of leaf springs,
and a mono leaf spring. All 3 types of suspension have been used on
that vehicle.
On the front, I've seen torsion bars and coil springs..
People rave about that thing. It's built on the Ford Ranger platform
no? It was originally the replacement for the Bronco II no?
The sticker on the door says to inflate the front and rear tires to 26
psi... ;) I wonder what the 2005 models suggest?
My '87 Mustang either says the word "Ford" or "Mustang" on 9 different
places on the outside of the vehicle. It did say it on 10 places but
I removed one of them. It's absurd! Eventually it will say it
nowhere on the outside of the vehicle. It will just be some weird
1980's "econo box" rolling silently down the street. Some will know
what it is though...
Here's the kicker though. I thought "hmm, Corvettes are "made" with
fiberglass huh?" Let's see how much one of them weighs... It weighs
more then my car does!! What's the point of making something out of
fiberglass if it ends up weighing more then something that's not?
What's underneath that fiberglass body anyways? A metal body just
like the Fiero?
Why not an all aluminum Vette? Why do the car manufactures love their
sheet metal and making 3,000+ lb cars?
Here is the ultimate kicker.
1940's and 50's cars. Extra heavy cars(4,000+lbs?), no seat belts.
Lap belts maybe. Non collapsable steering columns to go with that.
Metal dashs with metal levels sticking out from it. Plate glass
windshields if I remember right? A single port master cylinder and 4
wheel drum brakes.
And those "classic" 1960's Mustangs where you can open the trunk, and
unbolt the gas tank and lift it out. The gas tank is the trunk floor
if you didn't know. If the vehicle gets rear ended, imagine the tidal
wave of gasoline that comes flooding into the passenger compartment
from the fuel tank being ruptured. That's one of Ford's little known
dark secrets.
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Chancey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 11:56 AM
Subject: E-Meter Madness
Hi folks,
I am having a problem with the E-Meter in my Force, and I wondered if I
could get an opinion on it. Yesterday I was happily cruising down to the
post office to ship out another order of the electric emblems, when I
noticed the meter had frozen. It read 8.6 AH used, and just stopped
updating. When I tried selecting Amps or Volts, it did not respond, just
continued to show 8.6 AH. I drove on home and then tried resetting
it. This unlocked it so to speak, so Amps and Volts were once again
visible, but now when Volts was selected it just seemed to randomly wander
up and down from about 136 Volts to about 180 Volts. Even though the car
was plugged in and charging it did not show any charging current at all.
So, is it toast or could the prescaler be the problem? It is a very very
elderly E-Meter from the early 90s currently in its fourth EV. It was
smoked once and repaired. Should I just give up and buy a new one?
Yes, also make sure you have the 5 pair double shield cable that is design
for a Emeter. Roland
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com<http://evalbum.com/>
My Electric Car at:
http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda<http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda>
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org<http://maeaa.org/>
Join the EV List at:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html>
--- End Message ---
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i don't know for these but this is a renault type
http://i10.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/3e/05/18_1_b.JPG
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Renualt LeCar
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> > there is a spring in fact, a rubber spring, the piston ring washer is
> > designed to be a "microm�tric spring"
>
> Are you talking about calipers such as these?
>
> http://www.grandwagoneers.com/images/large/gw_brake_caliper_2_large.jpg
>
> http://www.solace.net/240Z-forsale/brake-caliper-mounted.jpg
>
> http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/november01/images/g25.jpg
>
> This one shows the tool that can be used to press the piston back in
> when doing a pad change(can cause the master cylinder to overflow so
> be aware...)
>
>
http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/tech/lincoln-mark-viii/Brake-Pads-Rotors/Lincoln-Cadillac%20007.jpg
>
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Hi Pat,
On Mar 18, 2005, at 7:04 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am increasing my Orbital count to 22 in a quest for more range. I
currently
have a range of 25 miles with easy driving, batteries at 50 degrees F,
80%
DOD. Putting more batteries in tha car is quite a learning
experience. I may
have room for 24 Orbitals but I am going to try 22 first.
How many Orbitals do you have in there now? I'm planning on putting 16
of them into my Ghia with specs similar to yours, so I'm interested in
the performance of your car.
With The WARP 8" motor & Zilla 1k The performance is about like the
stock 4
CYL. Not bad, not great. Driving at 50 to 60 MPH the range is 18 to 20
miles. The Orbitals are definitely a more performance battery but they
require a
battery management system to keep from overcharging/undercharging them.
Thanks for the data!
Doug
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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