EV Digest 4205
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Drag racing pics.
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC DC Converter
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Where is all the power going?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Electric Diahatsu Charade
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) S/P motor brushes, was Re: DC DC Converter
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AZ Republic blurb
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: power brakes and vacuum
by "SCOTT O'QUINN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: American business model
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: American buisness model is wrong (on topic, eventually)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Let's cut each other some slack, OK?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric Diahatsu Charade
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: power brakes and vacuum, Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) X19?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Big vehicle EV conversions, was: Rabbit replacement
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: why are crash tests so expensive?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
My son would like to see pics of EV drag racing. I would particularly
like to see some commutation arcing if that is not too much to ask. Pl
advise links.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope this motor is a permanent magnet motor with 4 brushes on the
commutator , 2 positive and 2 negatitive.
Would it be possible to reconnect the brushes to have them in series and
run the motor on double the voltage?
ie: one brush to battery positive two brushes connected together and one
brush to battery negative.
I would try some asci art but it wouldn't look good :)
Mike G.
Lee Hart wrote:
M.G. wrote:
What I am trying to do is to use the power steering motor and pump
from the forklift we are scrapping where I work. The motor is a
48 volt setup and the pump is already attached... If the motor has
four brushes can I reconnect them in series instead of
parallel to effectively double the operating voltage of the motor?
No; it just means you have a 4-pole motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Force has:
A controller optimized for THAT motor across ALL operating conditions
ATF in the transaxle
just two gear pairs in the transaxle (excluding the innards of the
differential)
lower power, so you simply cannot drive in anything other than
granny-mode
LRR tires (which should be pumped up to 50 PSI)
belly pan
The first few things for the civic:
Alignment (#1)
For the Civic, you cannot turn the power down, only the motor current,
if at all. The Solectria power saver switch turns down battery current,
not motor current, so it is still ok at low speeds. If you can get a
lower power controller, start there, which probably means less motor
loop current. And shifting more.
ATF in the transaxle
pump up the tires until it hurts- they should sound like bells try this
and an alignment for a charge cycle or two to get a data point
LRR tires
At urban EV speeds, tire losses tend to show up big for range.
Seth
On Mar 19, 2005, at 2:08 PM, Mike Chancey wrote:
Hi folks,
Does anyone have any suggestions on where to start on identifying the
reasons for high power usage in an EV? My Force only uses about 200
watt hours per mile (measured from the batteries), while my Civic is
more like 325 to 350. Both are small aero cars, one is AC one is DC,
and of course the Force has regen, but I don't think the difference
should be so large.
My thinking is this, either the Civic is requiring too much power to
push due to drag issues, or the motor controller and battery combo
have some sort of issue causing them to use to much electricity. So,
any ideas on how I can identify the problem?
Id do have some thoughts: Excess brake drag, a noisy transmission, a
bad battery or to and so forth. I am just not sure where to start.
This car has never been particularly efficient, but I can't find a
good reason why it doesn't do better. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > Maybe it's time to try to make a run
> again
> > at the Selectria Sunrise?
>
> > The molds are sitting in Rhode Island at
> the
> > best fiberglass building corp in the world who
> would
> > probably love to get that part of the work.
>
>
> How much does the unibody weigh? How long does it
Between 400-500 lbs
> take to make each
> one?
One a day per mold set. Easy to make more mold sets.
> How much will they cost?
The composite parts go for about $8-10lb but that
includes a lot like paint, most of the seats, dash,
ect in that weight.
>
> Are they "pure fiberglass"? Or is there something
> inside of it? Like
> bracing or framing of some sort?
Pure composites are the framing.
Parts would be cored and other not but all the
structural is in the body's composites.
>
> Say for example that you personally have that
> fiberglass company do a
> run and make ~25 unibody's. Where you go from
> there?
>
For the Sunrise it would be 100 units to make
Selectria interested I'd think to start up but should
easily be able to sell them.
Maybe you could start with 25 units but to give
up the design they are going to want a good bit of
business. But right now it's a non performing asset
they may not even know they have!!!
The EV drive parts are stock Selectria already in
production still. Probably what Electro-Automotive
sells from them.
The rest is available. I have the list of parts
somewhere. It's a very simple EV. It's obvious someone
who knew what they were doing designed the composite
body. When you do one right there are few other parts
needed. It's done how I would design one for mass
production.
A 100-160 mile range Ni-cad one would be about
$30-35,000 in a 100 lot run.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mainly for Australian list members I advise that the EV is now road
legal and being used for all short trips about 30ks return.
On presentation of the EV for inspection prior to paying my money &
getting the plates I had to open the engine compartment. I heard F. me
dead what is this! Similar words were heard when the EV was presented
for its Roadworthy Certificate, a procedure required to ensure brakes
etc are OK.
My 17 year old son is now a convert to EVs. He cannot believe the ease
at which the wheels can be spun in 3rd gear and the kick in the guts
when you floor it at 35mph.
Any one coming to Melbourne (Australia) is welcome to visit and drive if
planning a conversion & looking for a completed vehicle for
encouagement.
The 144V 100Ahr battery restricts long trips but offers good
performance. I will wait in the wings for a suitable NiMH battery.
Perhaps a bulk purchase by list members could get a good price.
My charging power source is 3kW of PV with plans to add 1.6kW more in
the future.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi MG and All,
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nope this motor is a permanent magnet motor with 4
> brushes on the
> commutator , 2 positive and 2 negatitive.
> Would it be possible to reconnect the brushes to
> have them in series and
> run the motor on double the voltage?
> ie: one brush to battery positive two brushes
> connected together and one
> brush to battery negative.
As Lee said, no!
Why is the commutator is hooked in series all
around the bars, not individual coils, so you would
short out if you tried to hook them in series. I
thought the same thing but was wrong.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
> I would try some asci art but it wouldn't look good
> :)
> Mike G.
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >M.G. wrote:
> >
> >
> >>What I am trying to do is to use the power
> steering motor and pump
> >>from the forklift we are scrapping where I work.
> The motor is a
> >>48 volt setup and the pump is already attached...
> If the motor has
> >>four brushes can I reconnect them in series
> instead of
> >>parallel to effectively double the operating
> voltage of the motor?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >No; it just means you have a 4-pole motor.
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.
http://baseball.fantasysports.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry Dycus wrote:
>Hi All,
>Maybe it's time to try to make a run again
>at the Selectria Sunrise?
>With the company sold maybe the new owners
>would be willing to part with it in order to sell
>their AC drives, ect which it was designed with.
>Would
>be a good size market for them.
>The molds are sitting in Rhode Island at the
>best fiberglass building corp in the world who would
>probably love to get that part of the work.
>This was the best EV ever built and even had
>4 seats with a 300 mile freeway range, Boston to NY,
>which is still a record most likely for a 4 seater
>and
>would be easy to do with Li-ions! Or 120mile range
>with lead or 180miles with ni-cads, my favorite.
>It's all designed and even crash tested I
>believe and should be fairly easy to put into
>production as a kit or turn key.
>Anyone game? Thoughts?
Here are my thoughts:
A) The car will definately need some work done on its body.
The pictures of the Sunrises I've seen looked horrible. Get
Wayland to recommend some styling touches on the car's body.
It looked like some tacky kitcar a five year old could
build, seriously. Such a thing will not sell unless it is
cleaned up a bit.
B) More power. I know AC drives are expensive, so maybe that
should be shunned and a no-regen higher power DC setup
should be considered, say, Zilla 1k and one or two 8''
Advanced DC motors. As it was, the Sunrise was slower than a
VW bus. This slowness will turn people off.
C) A transmission. This would go with the higher power setup
idea mentioned if and only if it were to be implemented. If
you want to get people to consider the car, maybe they might
like the idea of being able to do double the speed limit
when no one is looking. also, this would fit with a DC setup
using a single motor, since a single DC motor on direct
drive could overheat. With two DC motors, this can be gotten
around by using series/parallel configurations in a two
motor setup, but the cost of one will be more than the
other.
D) Stick with lead acid for now to keep it affordable. A car
that aerodynamic and light could have 100+ miles highway
range with a sizable pack of sealed lead acid batteries.
With one of Rudman's fast charge setups, range wouldn't be
an issue in a hypothetical case there's be charging stations
at some locations. Add other chemistries as either a premium
option OR when increased production brings prices to lead
acid levels.
E) Pricing. Keep the parts cost low. With a $30k pricetag,
an electric musclecar that can seat 4 and does 0-60 < 7
seconds and can at least top 120 MPH will sell. Lesser
versions could also be made, say a 0-60 in 11 second model
that tops 85 and has 100 miles highway range as well, for
about $15k. Such things would necessitate a sizable
production volume though. This would require successfully
selling a few hundred cars a year, easier said than done.
ESPECIALLY using a car that has a poor finish and trim, or
even worse, in the event someone may try to sell conversions
on old chassis.
I'd love to help with something like this. The idea screams
pipe dream, but you can't know until you try. The problem
is, trying takes money.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To those that are continuing the mudslinging and insults,
stop. That'll just make things turn into a flame war.
Whatever the case, I'm at least going to try to answer
John's questions.
Neon John wrote:
>The blurb was about a BoobWatch, er, BayWatch "all
>silicone all the
>time" star being arrested for blocking a truck at a
>GM facility during
>a "save the EV1" demonstration. (average reader: WTF
>is an EV1?)
>Having tossed the TV several years ago I didn't know
>who Chelsea was
>until I saw that article. Now I do. Only because I
>am involved with
>EVs did I know what kind of fruitcake cause the
>demonstration was about.
That's the media for you. It seems we can chalk another up
that's ditched the boob tube, for obviously different
reasons.
I wouldn't necessarily call an attempt to prevent cars
partially funded with our tax dollars a 'fruitcake cause',
however. Better they go used than end up trashed. Enough of
our tax dollars get wasted as things are.
>What I continue to wonder about is this. If there is >this
huge demand
>out there for production EVs then why isn't someone
>building them? No, not the Big Guys. Tuner shops
>like Rousch and Saleen and
>Lingenfelter who take production vehicles and turn
>them into hotrods.
Ever hear of a Zytec Lotus Elise? All electric, 200
horsepower, about the same weight as a stock Elise IIRC.
80-100 mile range on Nickel Cadmium batteries. That's at
least one I know of that was built. Others probably exist,
although not from Lingenfelter or Saleen.
Corvettes and Mustangs would make horrible cars for EVs
anyway. Overweight and unaero compared to what could be the
case, and you're going to have to work your ass off trying
to figure out where to put the batteries in a car like that.
I'd be interested in seeing it done though. Individuals have
done electric Corvettes and Mustangs before, and they turned
out fairly nice, although they certainly won�t perform
like a Saleen or Lingenfelter. Personally, I'm interested in
seeing a custom electric musclecar built from the ground up
as an EV, with attention paid to looks and detail and with a
high top speed. Position the battery weight correctly(Or
have enough battery weight), and that smooth ride and feel
of the old land yatchts could perhaps be duplicated.
>There are plenty of rich folks
>out there who want to look green who would fund such
>a startup if
>there was a business case to be made.
Would they do it if it would take away profits from other
existing models and be less profitable than the other
vehicles, when their goal is maximizing profits?
>That's the key, I think. There IS NO DEMAND, at
>least none that
>matters commercially. A few hundred True Believers
>do not a market
>make. When someone makes the case for there being a
>market using
>generally accepted methods for the industry (NOT
>internet petitions or
>email bombings or phone trees or....) then the money
>will be
>forthcoming.
Therin is the reason the protestors are acting as they are.
GM never allowed the market to be tested for commercial
demand. They made a few hundred cars that all ended up being
leased, and had no more to offer, even when others wanted to
try one out. GM kept saying they'd make more of them in the
case there was more demand, but there was no way to
absolutely prove there was no demand until more cars were
made to be leased. But more cars weren't made.
To further exacerbate things, dealerships that did have cars
even tried to sway people away from leasing these cars. Just
talk to Doug Korthoff, and he'll recount the time he tried
to rent an EV Plus from Honda. hey repeatedly refused to let
him rent it, outright telling him he didn't want it. It took
repeated attempts for him to get them to lease it to him.
Examples like this can be found among all major companies
that have leased EVs, GM included.
It was also common for GM and others to inflate the cost of
their vehicles. Companies based the cost of their electric
vehicle on immediate recovery of prototype development
costs, while under any normal circumstances those costs
would be spread over hundreds of thousands of those cars to
be built and sold. You aren't going to get many takers when
you tell them the car will cost $60,000, when in realitiy in
a mass production scenario it would cost more like
$25,000-$30,000 and this fact is conveniently omitted.
Then there was heavy scrutiny of potential lessees, and most
were eliminated from ever being able to lease the car for
some rather bullshit reasons, like they didn't earn $100+k a
year or what have you, even though they'd have gladly
plunked down the money for the lease.
Although these aren't the hard data you're looking for(Since
a highway-capable EV was never mass produced and none
attempted to be sold by a major automaker to consumers),
there are many polls and studies indicating the demand for
EVs was sizable. More than 30% of new car consumers polled
in California wanted to buy an electric vehicle as their
next vehicle if one could be purchased and if one was
affordable according to a study titled "The Current and
Future Market for Electric Vehicles" conducted in 2000. Its
sample size was over 900 people, which is plenty enough to
have some semblence of accuracy, at least if that sociology
course I took was accurate. The Wall Street Journal reported
a poll that found in the state of California alone, there
was a market for at least 150,000 vehicles per year. This
was 12% of the entire market for cars and light trucks in
that state, assuming they were offered at affordable prices.
Ford originally listed the price of its Rangers at under
$20,000, and a few months later after deciding to charge
more than $30,000 for them, the auto industry paid the
California Manufacturer�s Association to conduct a survey
that had the vehicles listed at inflated prices, and tried
to peddle the conclusion that consumers didn�t want them.
That statistic saying the market was 150,000 vehicles a
year? You did once mention that 1% of those that claim they
will buy a product really don't, and lets assume that study
didn't even account for the false claims people may make.
That's 1,500 cars in the state of California alone, that
would be sold. Around America, it's a safe bet that the
market was at least 20,000 cars a year, similar to the
initial market for the hybrids back in the middle 1990s.
To try to even ignore your own potential market or even
persuade that market they don't want your product or to even
deliberately turn your market away from the product is a
business policy that will most likely fail. GMs business
policy was nothing short of flawed, if not outright
manipulative, IMO.
>If pure EVs ever have a chance (and I don't think
>they do) then the
>advocates are going to have to stop acting like
>nutcakes and start
>selling the product on it real merits. No gas
>stations, no gas fumes,
>no engine, cheaper operation.
I sort of agree. I like the idea using both methods,
monetary benefits/various perks and environmental aspects,
in conjunction with each other, as each will attract its own
market. you may not agree with the latter, and so be it.
The low operating costs of an electric sports car(compared
to some overweight high-maintenance sugardaddy like my dad's
Audi TT) are one of the factors that got me attracted to
doing a conversion. With a large battery pack, my battery
cost would be < $.10 per mile, which would make it a cheap
car to run(Although I do expect to screw up the first
pack.). Then there's the no motor vibration, which would
make the ride exceptionally smooth and comfortable, even for
a car that quite literally rides like shit as it is now.
Then there is the fact that my car will have a ceramic
heater, and later on, air-conditioning. No waiting 5 minutes
for the heat to kick in while shivering my ass off, get it
instantly. For airconditioning, you can configure an EV to
keep itself pre-cooled while it's charging, thus when it's
hot outside, you can keep the interior from getting baked
and you won't have to wait for the AC to kick in when you
get in the car. Those two things could alone spark people's
interest.
>The environmental claims either trigger
>a yawn or the person's lie detector, depending on
>how much he
>understands how electricity is generated and
>distributed. In the real
>world and not some fanciful never-never land.
Although for another topic, that pollution is at least
displaced from cities, where it is a major problem. The
American lung association estimates 50,000 or more premature
deaths occur each year due to air pollution's consequences,
which is more than homicide, terrorism, drunk driving
accidents, and AIDS combined. About 1/2 of that pollution is
caused by automobiles, depending on study cited. Although
these next figures are a little outdated, one could argue
that EVs may produce less pollution than a gas car with
powerplant emissions factored in. A study conducted by CARB
concluded in California, an EV would produce 98% fewer toxic
emissions than an average 2002 model year car. But
California uses much cleaner methods of power generation
than other states. A study which was made in like 1994 that
was cited here, and you responded to many months ago, shows
that BEVs, in contrast to a typical ICE vehicle, will
produce 96% fewer hydrocarbons, 99% less carbon monoxide,
and 67% less nitrogen oxides, while increasing production of
sulfur oxides and particulates, using America�s total
power generation mix. But it is a valid critiscism that new
cars are much cleaner than old ones, indeed making this
study outdated, if only it wasn't for the fact that
emissions of cars tested by the EPA doesn't account for
breakdown of emissions regulation systems in cars, the fact
that catylitic converters need to warm up to do their job
correctly, or even the pollution associated with getting a
petroleum-run car's fuel to its tank, from oil spills,
leaks, ect. In 1993, the Green Car journal reported that
from a strictly coal-fired plant, hydrocarbons, nitrogen
oxides, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter were reduced
by a combined 71%, again, old figure it may be.
However, often comes the argument that it is much easier to
regulate the emissions on a few powerplants, than to
regulate the emissions on 200+ million gas cars. Although,
my guess is that you don't like such regulations much.
The 'envirobleating' is probably annoying you, if you
haven't skipped over it already. To each his own.
>Brands and segments tend to develop stereotype
>public images. I got
>rid of my gorgeous 635CSi simply because I got tired
>of being
>classified with all the yuppie assholes who now
>drive BMWs.
As much as I hate stereotyping, that yuppie assholes comment
doesn't seem too far off. :-)
My campus is filled with them, and they seem to always want
to race me on the highway.
I wouldn't worry about being labelled though. To anyone that
would want to personally throw you under some label, flip
them off and be done with it, or moon them if that doesn't
do the trick.
>Or think
>what pops to mind when you hear "SUV". Does the same
>thing happen
>when you hear "Pickup Truck"? Essentially the same
>vehicles.
I've always considered them station wagons on lift kits, but
yes they are built on truck chassis. They just happen to
have $8,000-15,000 profit margins tacked onto them because
gullible people are willing to pay that much for a vehicle
that they have no use for and is inherently unsafe. Those
that don't offroad the damn things and just want them
because the commercials tell them they want them might as
well drive a short yellow bus around, like the retards they
are. *said the toungue to the cheek*
>Similarly, the image of an EV driver is that of a
>fruity left
>coast granola eating tree hugging nutcake.
Kind of makes that image seem desirable in the case you can
kill a 5.0 Mustang at a stoplight. EVs have potential to be
the next musclecars, especially if gas prices make such high
powered vehicles too expensive to use. Sure, street EVs
aren't pulling 8 second 1/4 miles at 170 MPH, not yet
anyway. Anyone that has a street car like that has deep
pockets to begin with, and may even be able to make a Li Ion
EV perform like that for the same cash. If you're willing to
dump $50k on an engine, you could just as well get a $50k
Kokam Li Ion pack and throw some cash into a high-powered DC
motor setup like the Ghia Monster is doing.
>I suspect that one of the
>main reasons hybrids are doing so well right now is
>precisely because
>they had no public image attached going in.
Hmm. I remember reading plenty of articles chastizing hybrid
drivers as 'left-wing fruitcakes' or some such other
insulting names, from many a newsie or pundit. Not much
different than the image applied to EV drivers.
I think hybrids have done as well as they have because
people were fed up paying so damn much for gas up front,
despite the additional maintenance costs associated with
hybrids. Then there's that other portion of buyers that
really are environmentally concerned. Then there are people
that do it for political reasons, and don't wish to give
what they perceive to be Saudi terrorists their hard-earned
money. There's the market that also wants something
different from everything else on the road, that not many
others have. I'd fit into all those categories.
It would seem logical to draw the conclusion that those same
people would jump on the opportunity to buy an affordable EV
that's highway capable, with say, 150 miles range. But only
in the case it's not some tacky looking kitcar or city pod
thing. It needs to have a smooth finish and have a design
that is considered desirable for the time period in order
for people to accept it. Not that unreasonable of a demand,
if you look at what has already been done by GM, although
never sold to the public.
Although this could be very off topic. I probably won't
respond to this topic again unless it's via email in
response to individual posts and not to the list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anybody tried using one an alternator off of a Datsun diesel or a Ford
diesel ?
They have a vacuum pump on the back side so you could get rid of the noisy
vacuum pump and the dc/dc converter !! just a thought !!!
Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: power brakes and vacuum
> Hi,
>
> Nick wrote:
>
> > Or maybe brake boosters don't bleed any vacuum off as long as you keep
> > the pedal depressed and I'm being dumb thinking they do?
>
> If I come to a slow stop at a light, and keep the pedal down, the pump
> doesn't come on usually while holding down the pump. It almost always
> comes on just as I let off of the brakes.
>
> My vacuum pump is also the noisiest part of the EV. Sometimes I start
> thinking about how I can get rid of it - but usually come to the
> conclusion others have mentioned before - it's probably good to have a
> little noise. The other day there was a jogger on the side of the
> road. Just as I passed, he crossed the road. If he hadn't heard me,
> and crossed without looking, I'd have had a splattered jogger on my
> hood. Most people look, but some put blind trust in their ears.
>
> Even so, it would be cool if it was as quiet as it is without the vacuum
> pump all the time.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
hehe...maybe the people that did the Voltsrabbit conversion saw how much
work it was and/or had spouses that forbade them from doing another
conversion :)
No, really...I love this idea! I think it could work if a couple
dedicated EV'ers did it right. My brother was in the autobody industry
for several years. He's a cop now, but still repairs cars for extra
cash. He's had lots of luck picking up wrecked Escorts (1997+) for
really cheap. He's got so many spare cars and parts lying around that
he can efficiently and cost-effectively put together affordable cars
that get bought up before they are finished. People generally like that
model of car.
If you did something similar - put together a conversion package with an
attractive vehicle, that had a range of 40-50 miles, got the cost in the
sub 10k - 15k range...I think you'd have yourself a business.
-Ryan
What if we took a hint from the open source movement with lots of
people working on an open design
First we choose a common donar vehicle to create a kit for, getting
all of us to agree on a particular model may be fun, but by the time
we wittle it down, it should be a well rounded choice.
Each "franchise" builds this "kit" and there would be approved people
to work on it in multiple cities for repairs or upgrades
we avoid car carriers because donars are aquired locally. We avoid
safety testing because it is done already, We don't sell cars, we
sell the conversion kit installed in the customers donar, which we
also can sell them as a component of the kit on a seperate invoice?
We avoid shipping batteries because of weight, but there are local
distributers. As a collective group we could make a deal with Exide
for example to standardise the price and make dated sets avail to the
frenchises.
Been there, tried that. We had what we called the "Pro-Mech
Program". We trained professional mechanics (who paid for the
training and travelled to our shop) to do conversions. We had a
couple dozen of them around the country. They had the Voltsrabbit Kit
(which at that time was a recent model car). Know what? Not a one of
them built a single conversion for a customer. They would build one
for themselves, and that's where it ended.
Good luck!
Shari Prange
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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Umm, the Sunrise I *drove* would spin tires at will from a stop. Maybe
you are thinking of the Force? They don't have the same motor.
Seth
On Mar 19, 2005, at 9:59 PM, John Westlund wrote:
Jerry Dycus wrote:
Hi All,
Maybe it's time to try to make a run again
at the Selectria Sunrise?
With the company sold maybe the new owners
would be willing to part with it in order to sell
their AC drives, ect which it was designed with.
Would
be a good size market for them.
The molds are sitting in Rhode Island at the
best fiberglass building corp in the world who would
probably love to get that part of the work.
This was the best EV ever built and even had
4 seats with a 300 mile freeway range, Boston to NY,
which is still a record most likely for a 4 seater
and
would be easy to do with Li-ions! Or 120mile range
with lead or 180miles with ni-cads, my favorite.
It's all designed and even crash tested I
believe and should be fairly easy to put into
production as a kit or turn key.
Anyone game? Thoughts?
Here are my thoughts:
A) The car will definately need some work done on its body.
The pictures of the Sunrises I've seen looked horrible. Get
Wayland to recommend some styling touches on the car's body.
It looked like some tacky kitcar a five year old could
build, seriously. Such a thing will not sell unless it is
cleaned up a bit.
B) More power. I know AC drives are expensive, so maybe that
should be shunned and a no-regen higher power DC setup
should be considered, say, Zilla 1k and one or two 8''
Advanced DC motors. As it was, the Sunrise was slower than a
VW bus. This slowness will turn people off.
C) A transmission. This would go with the higher power setup
idea mentioned if and only if it were to be implemented. If
you want to get people to consider the car, maybe they might
like the idea of being able to do double the speed limit
when no one is looking. also, this would fit with a DC setup
using a single motor, since a single DC motor on direct
drive could overheat. With two DC motors, this can be gotten
around by using series/parallel configurations in a two
motor setup, but the cost of one will be more than the
other.
D) Stick with lead acid for now to keep it affordable. A car
that aerodynamic and light could have 100+ miles highway
range with a sizable pack of sealed lead acid batteries.
With one of Rudman's fast charge setups, range wouldn't be
an issue in a hypothetical case there's be charging stations
at some locations. Add other chemistries as either a premium
option OR when increased production brings prices to lead
acid levels.
E) Pricing. Keep the parts cost low. With a $30k pricetag,
an electric musclecar that can seat 4 and does 0-60 < 7
seconds and can at least top 120 MPH will sell. Lesser
versions could also be made, say a 0-60 in 11 second model
that tops 85 and has 100 miles highway range as well, for
about $15k. Such things would necessitate a sizable
production volume though. This would require successfully
selling a few hundred cars a year, easier said than done.
ESPECIALLY using a car that has a poor finish and trim, or
even worse, in the event someone may try to sell conversions
on old chassis.
I'd love to help with something like this. The idea screams
pipe dream, but you can't know until you try. The problem
is, trying takes money.
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I had no idea you had done that, When was that? 80's? You were/are
ahead of your time, gas was cheap, which may have limited your market.
The vaibility of sales is a step above the viability of one for
yourself. Perhaps nowadays with the increased gas prices and the the
renewed interest it is worth another try.
One and only one model may be an issue, people think they need a choice.
If each of us from this list develops a kit that we specialize in and,
we cross share the kits, then we all get a lot of models for potential
customers to choose from. Another aspect of opensource tools :-)
Once I verify the 300zx kit, I would be willing to trade a few for
rabbit kits.
There may be some issues with kit value, some kits are gonna cost more
than others because they have more parts or are more or less complete or
at different levels of "polish". We will have to work on that aspect.
Standards?
I think we will have to have increased offerings of new kits to keep
building our customer base :-)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Lets put it this way: NJ knows his shit when it comes to
electronics. Most of us here may not agree with him, but I'd
say he's one of the most valuable members of this list we
have. I've learned quite a bit from his posts here, and I
wouldn't want people with technical knowledge like that to
be driven off over some squabbles about political views(Even
if those politics are related to EVs). As long as we don't
get too pissed off at each other, this list will stay
productive and informative. Best way to keep from getting
pissed off at each other is to try to stay rational, and not
respond to insults with more insults.
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You ever see this car?
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/153.html
I've always been curious how fast it went. I almost assumed
this was your car, until I noticed the batteries it used
weren't 100 ah like yours.
What will yours hit 100 km/h from a start in? Timed it yet?
What type of batteries you have in it? Motor, controller?
I heard of recent legislation in Australia where all
'provision drivers', being aged 18-21, are banned from
operating V8 powered cars, supercharged cars, and
turbocharged cars due to escalating road deaths and an
attempt to crack down on street racing. The EV is one very
crafty loophole around this, letting the youth have an
overpowered car that they can race.
I'm an American, however, so this legislation could be a
myth of sorts.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: power brakes and vacuum
> Hi,
>
> Bob Bath wrote:
> > get a GAST pump, and a square D switch.
> > Can't beat it. And it's _quiet_, too.
>
> That is exactly what I have, and, IMO it is a very noisy pump. Of
> course, I suppose I could make it quieter by mounting it with rubber
> mounts or in a vacuum or something like that ;-)
>
> -- Hi EVerybody;
On my Rabbbit I used the vacuum pump that CAME with the Diseasel Doner
Car, the brake system was used to it, anyhow. Removed the cute little gear
that ran on the crankshaft, after all it even LOOKS like a distributer on a
gas engine. Shaft is one half inch, I think. Retrofit a 5 or 6 inch pully,
make a bracket to attach it to the brush/comm end of your 9 inch motor, IF
yur lucky enough to have a tailshaft! Run a smaller pully on the motor as it
runs faster than the diesel. I use a light V belt, loosly tight so as not to
wear out the sleave bearings on the pump. The down side is that ya should
squirt some oil inside now an' again, as it was, the crank and conn rod,
splash lubed in its first life. Easy to do , take inspection plate loose.I
tapped on a grease fitting, give it a squirt now and again. When it needs
lube, it TELLS you, squeeks like hell! ALSO ya can buy a new diophram, when
it doesn't suck anymore, unlike the damn GM one! Plus side it needs NO
electrical, belt it up, hook line to Rabbit's vacuum booster. I would
imagine that it would work on any OTHER vacuum booster. Runs all the time,
forget about it! These should be easy to get off any Dead VW Diseasel. I put
a piece of hose with scrunched up scrubby pads as a muffler, so you don't
get the "Oink Oink " effect. Absolutely silent, now.Yes, when the car isn't
moving ya lose vacuum, but you get a few stops from the reserve in the tank
and you arent gunna be going very fast without the motor turning.Guess I
could do extra tanks, but havent felt the need. Or better yet get a smaller
bore master cylinder, longer stroke and symplify things more, wouldn't NEED
power assist?
Seeya
Bob
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
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Seth allen wrote:
>Umm, the Sunrise I *drove* would spin tires at will
>from a stop.
Really? How fast did it hit 60 in? I remember combing the
archives and seeing Wayland comment that 0-60 was 17
seconds.
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg03788.html
The Force was indeed slow. But I remember seeing from
Solectria themselves that the 0-50 time of the Sunrise was
12 seconds(Also mentioned by Wayland). That's pretty darn
slow, even if it can spin its tires at a stop.
If it is indeed that slow, it could use a nice upgrade. Or
perhaps that 100 horsepower AC setup that Solectria has
being sold by Electro Automotive, you know, the one that has
170 pound feet of peak torque. That would be a start.
If I'm indeed wrong about this car, or there were mutliple
versions of it, let me know. I am very interested in it,
simply due to its jaw-dropping range and would like to know
more about it.
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Has anyone ever converted an X19? Mid-engine. Lots of truck space front
and rear for batteries, and a 2590 Max. GVW. Don't know the Cd. There was
a post on the EVDL a couple of months ago about an X19 in the Tour de Sol,
but I've never heard anyone mention an EV conversion.
Bill Dennis
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Frankly, I am considering such a conversion. Not quite at the Hummer level
though.
I'm looking at a Ford F-250. My 93 model has a 4400lb payload
capacity. This is high enough that I can put 2000 lbs of battery in it,
and still have a useful payload size.
I'd really like to get the numbers to figure out what kind of range I could
get if I used 40 T-145's, Z(1or2)K, and a couple of 8/9/11 inch
motors. (Which motor would be "best"? Do I really need a Z2K, or would a
Z1K be enough?)
I've been starting to gather the numbers to figure out the cost, but I also
need to find out what "other" items are needed. (How many contactors of
what type?, Power Steering/Brakes/Air Conditioning
setups? DC-DC? Probably a PFC-50)
With this kind of size and payload, I could afford to have a slide in
module with a 4cyl car engine and a 20KW gen set to extend the range.
At 04:01 PM 3/19/2005, Lee Hart wrote:
Honesty forces me to admit one other idea for an EV conversion: Some
huge SUV, perhaps a Hummer.
You are bound to ask, "Are you nuts? Why convert such a monster into an
EV?" Well, I'll tell you why.
- It's what Americans think they want -- a safe roomy go-anywere
vehicle with lots of load-carrying capacity [sic].
- It gets terrible gas mileage; making it into an EV fixes it.
and, the pie'ce de re'sistance...
- It's so big and heavy that you can get a *huge* tax credit,
essentially writing off the entire cost in just one year.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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I've never understood how it could cost so much to "crash test" a
vehicle. Lets say I build a new vehicle. I submit one(or a few) at my
expense for them to crash test. Seat belt the dummy in it, rig up the
cables, press the button, and look at the results. To reduce the
costs, they could have owners of the vehicle do all I mentioned above.
Then all they'd have to do is observe the results!
Federal regulations require a very specific set of tests performed at a
certified facility. This is extremely expensive as the facilities
require a very high level of technology and engineering. It is not a
simple matter of providing a couple of units for safety inspection and
crash testing.
I spoke with a small domestic BEV manufacturer who makes a high
performance higher speed BEV and was very motivated to do the crash test
series on a budget (as they had limited resources). They said that it
would cost over $50 million to get it done by BMW. They said that they'd
shopped around for budget option alternatives. The cheapest they could
get the crash test series completed for was still in the tens of
millions of US dollars. This was a few years ago.
In my opinion, massive corporate support in the tens of millions of
dollars should not be a >prerequisite< for success in the "new design"
BEV city car market segment.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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BTW, there is Solectria Sunrise for sale on the EV Tradin' Post at
http://tinyurl.com/49yaf
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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