EV Digest 4210
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Electric Diahatsu Charade
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Stirling Engine
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NiCad Bonanza.....
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Stirling Engine
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Getting more EV's on the road
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1--let's go to the next step
by Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AZ Republic Blurb
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: why are crash tests so expensive?
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Stirling Engine
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fw: EarthLink Virus Blocker: Message from "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <[email protected]> Quarantined
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Open Source EV Kit
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Range trailer
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AZ Republic Blurb (Keep it civil)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New EV Dragster
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Open Source EV Kit
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New EV Dragster
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Riker Electric Vehicles Website
by Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Riker Electric Vehicles Website Address
by Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New EV Dragster
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Dear Claudio
I will get pics for you shortly & performance data. It is difficult to
find suitable flat roads here without travelling outside its range. 30ks
is my conservative estimate. It will do about 50ks I believe. Batt
condition is uncertain. When these die I will replace with 12V 100Ahr
Gels ex cell phone stations that I can get for $10 each from a scrap
yard. I know gels are not as good for Imax and dV/dt but it is Ahrsmax
and Smax that interest me most.
The lack of regen sh#ts me but am working on this as you know.
Pl visit www.pansonic.com for batts. It has LC-R1233P batts which are
33Ahr @ C20 & mass is 12kg. So there are 432kg of batts. I suspect these
were chosen by CSIRO for low profile & low Rint.
There appears to be an add-on demister but I don't know if it is
working.
Bats are on 2 levels in the eng compartment, under the rear seat in a
purpose built bat box cut into the space (and causes insufficient ground
clearance) and in the spare wheel well. Veh was originally 72V & had one
of the notorious torpedo motors that Huntingdon used ex USA surplus.
This got burnt out by someone in the CSIRO who liked bulk Amps. Ill get
other data for you shortly.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Claudio Natoli
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2005 12:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Electric Diahatsu Charade
> Mainly for Australian list members I advise that the EV is now road
> legal
Congratulations!
> and being used for all short trips about 30ks return.
You might remember I'm a Sydney-sider converting a Charade too, and so
am pretty interested in all the details.
Unhappily, I take it that is 30km total, not 30km down and 30km back. I
was still keeping an outside hope for a useful 70km range with ours
:-( Over what sort of speeds, and to what depth of discharge?
I note you listed 144V/100Amp.hrs, but wondering which batteries exactly
(I'm still agonising over battery choice, and as you probably know the
space under the bonnet is height limited)
Did you get the car weighed by any chance? Wondering if you kept things
under GVM, or whether you managed to get the limits upgraded?
What did you do for (front window) demisting? Having re-read the
Australian Design Rules recently, it occured to me I had completely
forgotten this requirement.
Any chance of using your real-life data to calibrate/validate that
spreadsheet I sent a few weeks back?
Ok, I think that's enough questions for now :-)
> On presentation of the EV for inspection prior to paying my money &
> getting the plates I had to open the engine compartment. I heard F. me
> dead what is this! Similar words were heard when the EV was presented
> for its Roadworthy Certificate, a procedure required to ensure brakes
> etc are OK.
Hehe. Looking forward to this. Best I've had so far was my first
generator-on-wheels "argument" with a bystander watching me haul my
electric motor/tranny combo into my mechanic's workshop.
> Any one coming to Melbourne (Australia) is welcome to visit
> and drive if planning a conversion & looking for a completed
> vehicle for encouagement.
If you've got a digital camera, the time and the inclination, a few pics
of the arrangement of bits under the hood and the battery
layout/frames/box etc would be invaluable to me at this point.
> I will wait in the wings for a suitable NiMH battery.
> Perhaps a bulk purchase by list members could get a good price.
Count me in on this. Any interest from other Aussies?
> My charging power source is 3kW of PV with plans to add 1.6kW more in
> the future.
Hey! You're living my "dream" :-)
Getting some much needed motivation from this,
Claudio
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--- Begin Message ---
Here is a 10kW unit.
http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/sunlab/snapshot/rmotpowr.htm
Still, a little big for the back yard...
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Rick, do you know the manufacturer?
>
Hi Bill,
They simply are marked Alcad. Some have warning lables about gas hazards and
some seem to be imprinted with Made In Holland.
So, does anyone know where I can find info about charging/cycling, etc.?
Thanks.
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> One he showed me recently was a thermoacoustic
> whistle. No moving parts; just a hot end that is heated with a parabolic
> reflector by sunlight, and a finned cold end cooled by the air.
-snip
>
> There are also acoustic generators, that turn sound vibrations into
> electricity.
Hmm, that got me curious. Turns out someone is already working on
something like this.
http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/
Apparently they are already getting 30% efficiency
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don wrote:
> If you wanted to make a business at it, then I doubt it would pay for
> itself.
Not initially a business, though I'd be open to it if it turned into that.
> However, if it is for a hobby, then the enjoyment of building and driving
> the car is worth the cost.
Could I recoup my costs? Or would it be a losing proposition?
If for example you were to sell your Beetle conversion once it's
completed. Could you sell it for the amount that you've invested into
it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There have been some really great thoughts posted on this thread by:
Jerry Dycus
Ryan Stotts
John Westlund
Mike Chancey
Seth Allen
Bob Rice
David Roden
Lee Hart
It seems to me like this is something we should take off-list to
another forum, to see what we can do as next steps. It doesn't seem
like it would be a good use of the EV List resources. I have e-mailed
the folks above to try to set up this next step.
Let me know (off-list) if you would like to be notified about these
opening steps also. Don't know where this may go, but I want to help
get the ball rolling.
Thanks.
--
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patchouli?
Dave
Some call it retirement, some call it a second career... I just call it
adding 5ive days to the weekend!
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Shelton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: AZ Republic Blurb
That smelly oil that Dead heads wear instead of deodorant. I have no
idea how it's spelled.
John
Bob Siebert wrote:
chiluli? I looked it up and got an abstract of S. Chiluli's thesis.
This thesis is concerned with the design and implementation of a
Relational Multimedia Database System, in short RMDBS. RMDBS is
designed to efficiently use storage space and manipulate various
kinds of data; attribute data, bit-mapped pictures, and programs
in binary code.
Hmmm...
/Bob
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I've heard that crash tests are expensive too (but in the millions???). So
how does one explain how Kia can create and sell at a profit the $7K
(RETAIL!) Rio. Obviously, they went through crash testing certification. A
company could never make any vehicle if it cost $50M to certify a design.
Marc Kohler
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: why are crash tests so expensive?
I've never understood how it could cost so much to "crash test" a
vehicle. Lets say I build a new vehicle. I submit one(or a few) at my
expense for them to crash test. Seat belt the dummy in it, rig up the
cables, press the button, and look at the results. To reduce the costs,
they could have owners of the vehicle do all I mentioned above. Then all
they'd have to do is observe the results!
Federal regulations require a very specific set of tests performed at a
certified facility. This is extremely expensive as the facilities require
a very high level of technology and engineering. It is not a simple matter
of providing a couple of units for safety inspection and crash testing.
I spoke with a small domestic BEV manufacturer who makes a high
performance higher speed BEV and was very motivated to do the crash test
series on a budget (as they had limited resources). They said that it
would cost over $50 million to get it done by BMW. They said that they'd
shopped around for budget option alternatives. The cheapest they could get
the crash test series completed for was still in the tens of millions of
US dollars. This was a few years ago.
In my opinion, massive corporate support in the tens of millions of
dollars should not be a >prerequisite< for success in the "new design" BEV
city car market segment.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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--- Begin Message ---
In case anyone is interested, I found some pictures of the 10kw stirling
solar generator at Ft Huachuca (where I used to work).
Here is a photo of it with the phased array of smaller dishes:
http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/photo/photos/0156/015639c.jpg
and here it is after being retrofitted with the flexible mirrors:
http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/photo/photos/9999/9999121U2.jpg
And a picture of the dish in the "Maintenance Posistion"
http://www.energylan.sandia.gov/photo/photos/9999/9999168U2.jpg
Note the gas bottles in the photos (for replacing the working fluid/gas).
I stated that it was loud, I should qualify that. It wasn't loud like a
jet engine, but you could easily here it throbbing from 50 yards away.
Also, I don't know if this system is typical or not, but I do know that
this dish was horendously expensive, had poor reliability, and frequently
required expensive replacement parts that took a long time to arrive, so I
doubt it will ever pay itself off. Then again, it was a prototype.
Cheers
--- End Message ---
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On 19 Mar 2005 at 5:57, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Virus Detected: Malformed container violation
> >
> > Message Details:
> > From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Subject: EV digest 4198
> > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 16:28:57 PST
I don't see any problems with that digest
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg05393.html
nor have I seen any indications that messages have crossed the list with
malware attached.
Has anybody (aside from Earthlink subscribers) gotten an alarm on either a
digest or individual message from his or her virus checker? If so, please
forward the COMPLETE message UNALTERED, with all headers intact, to me at
the admin address, evdl at drmm period net.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
It would scare the world.
-- Zhai Guangming, China Natl. Petroleum Corp.
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Hi folks,
I just had a thought from all these EV production/kit/conversion
discussions of late. How about a kind of open source kit? What I have in
mind is say 3 to 5 folks getting together and selecting a common donor car,
say a Dodge Neon or Toyota Echo for example. After common brainstorming to
get a picture of just what the basic concept should be, each would take
over one aspect of the conversion, design a solution, produce it and
document it. Say one takes on the drive train and handles the motor mount,
adapter, and coupler. Another handles battery boxes and mounting. Another
handles suspension and brake upgrades. Another wiring, chargers, and
instrumentation. Yet another accessories, heating, and cooling. They
would then share it with the other members of the team. Each would then
duplicate the other ones work. Eventually you would end up with completed
identical and fully documented conversions. At this point, you have
effectively created a complete conversion guide for a specific donor
including measurements and patterns that anyone wishing to copy can use to
build their own EV with a very good idea of what the final result would be
like. Could be cool.
What do you think?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:40 AM, jerry dycus wrote:
If Selectria doesn't want to play, it would be
easy to take a mold off of it and do the rest from
scratch with many more power, batt options if we can
talk the owner into it. The Sunrise's aero is very
good.
Or take a mold from any car for that matter. It's
easy, much easier, lower cost than building from
scratch and gives you sources of windshields, ect.
On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
What if we form a corporation. Each investor buys X shares of stock to
raise $50,000. Let's say there are 50 investors of $1000 each.
The corporation buys the Solectria Sunrise currently being offered for
sale. The car is then carefully reverse-engineered, thoroughly
documented, and the plans provided to the investors.
IANAL, but both of these proposals sound like theft of intellectual
property.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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On 17 Mar 2005 at 18:04, Christopher Zach wrote:
> Anyone ever towed a trailer of batteries behind an EV for long-range
> trips?
Olaf Bleck and Team New England ran a Solectria Force with a trailerful of
batteries in the Tour de Sol a few years ago. IIRC, the first year he came
in first but was disqualified for some reason. He was back a year or two
later and I think took second place.
My memory of this stuff is foggy, so I may be getting the details wrong, but
at any rate he / they did it and it worked rather well.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats
tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read.
-- Karl Kraus
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On 19 Mar 2005 at 13:22, Tim Clevenger wrote:
> Personal insults are against the list charter.
Actually, I think one could say that the charter is mute on this matter:
http://www.evdl.org/help/
However, civil discourse is important to this list, and it is NOT served by
personal attacks, mocking commentary, and insults.
For that matter, the purposes of this list are also not served when posters
make asides about politics and political figures (always guaranteed to
offend SOMEONE). And I think it's safe to say that political commentary
DOES violate our charter - especially when it results in flame wars.
Therefore: stick to discussing EVs, please, and omit the asides about public
figures not associated with EVs.
And, while you're about it, treat the other members of this list
respectfully, just as if you were having a conversation with them in person.
THIS MEANS YOU. In the last 36 hours, more than one person here has posted
material which does not meet standards of reasonably civil discourse.
There's no reason that anyone needs to mock anyone else in order to make a
point. We are supposed to be rational, well educated people here. If for
some unfathomable reason you can't treat people with respect and courtesy,
and you're unable to control your impulse to mock and ridicule, then please
go away and leave us in peace.
Thanks, all.
David
Assistant EV List Administrator
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats
tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read.
-- Karl Kraus
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STEVE CLUNN said:
> Speaking about the warp 13" motor , I have been talking to somebody ( Don)
> here in Florida about building a fast s-10 and the first though of mine
> was
> 2 8" but after some talking to net gain he is going with the 13 " which he
> is going to get with a spline shaft to make a easy hook up to a drive
> shaft
> and then straight to the rear , . I'm not sure of the details but this
> motor
> will be able to be switched in series / parallel , like 2 motor set up .
> So
> hopefully some day soon a person will be able to buy the motor , drive
> shaft
> and have a simple bolt up set up that they know will work. as for time
> standing still , this is going to be a slow project also , the 2 k 348 v
> zilla won't be ordered for a while , till the money builds up , so if your
> in a hurry to see what a 13" will do , I can't say when , but the motor is
> paid for , that's the first step.
Just to chime in here, I've been corresponding with Don about his project
recently, since it's very similar to mine. I'm also converting an S-10
(actually a 1999 Isuzu Hombre, a GM-produced S-10 with some different
trim), and using the same Warp 13 and Z2K-EHV setup Steve mentioned, with
direct drive, making the driveshaft connection the same way. I have the
controller, and the motor is in the queue at Warfield now.
There's no race to finish here; I think both Don and I have a lot of work
cut out, and though I can't speak for him, I really don't want to rush
through it. I'd rather take the time, and do it as well as I can.
One thing's for certain -- I am holding high optimism for the performance
of this motor; the numbers I've gotten from Netgain look *very*
impressive. I think both of us are going to have problems with traction,
if nothing else.
For me, among other things, I'm still trying to decide ... ARB Air Locker
for open-diff mild manners on the street with a switch to lock the wheels
up for racing, or a Detroit Locker for that ratcheting, all-around hard
core attitude? :o)
--chris
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On 19 Mar 2005 at 21:35, John Westlund wrote:
> But I remember seeing from
> Solectria themselves that the 0-50 time of the Sunrise was
> 12 seconds(Also mentioned by Wayland). That's pretty darn
> slow, even if it can spin its tires at a stop.
Slow?! I'm astonished to hear you say that! I had a 1976 VW Rabbit
(gasoline powered, alas) that would go from 0-50 in just over 11 seconds,
and it was as quick a car as I've ever needed. Twelve seconds sound more
than adequate to me.
I think the American public is too addicted to rapid acceleration. It
appears to me that they often try to use it as a substitute for skillful
driving.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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-- Michael Ledeen, American Enterprise Institute
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Mike wrote:
> What do you think?
I'm planning on fully documenting any conversion I do to the extent
that it will be reproducible from my documentation, pictures, and
measurements. All the details will be known.
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--- Begin Message ---
The Sunrise was crash-tested successfully. When I was at Solectria
getting my service training, the crash-test version was sitting out
back. It wasn't in very bad shape at all.
Some observations:
1) They had a prototype in their shop that had a really cool battery
setup. There was a big, removable, rectangular battery box that ran
under the car, sliding in kind of like the battery pack in a
rechargeable drill. The pack actually had rollers on the bottom so that
it could slide in and out of the car easily -- Changing out a battery
pack was absurdly simple. It seems to me this was on a Sunrise but it's
possible it was another prototype.
2) The only real drawback I can see to the monococque Sunrise body is
that if the car was in a moderate collision, with damage to the
structure, repairing it could be difficult or impossible, making a
relatively minor collision a "total". It's not like you're going to take
it to the body shop down the street. Comments?
3) I was told that the Sunrise was engineered so that the suspension,
steering, etc. was all stock parts off of a Metro or Prizm. This is not
a problem if you're making two or three prototypes, but if you intend to
go into production, how are you going to OEM these components?
4) I would pretty much give my eye teeth to see this vehicle in
production. My wife and I were going to hold out for one but when it
became clear the car wasn't going into production soon (this was 1997)
we "settled" for a Force.
-Tom
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
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John Wayland wrote:
OK, here's the gig....I haven't engaged in a good old fashioned Lee Hart
rebuttal in a
long time, and I know Lee's really missed the old days of Wayland vs Hart, so
what the
heck, here goes!I can't help but stick my nose in, so here goes...>To get the
ultimate in customer acceptance type of 'performance', no way! I'm talking
'quality of appearance performance' ....I'm talking about a car that has the
look and
feel of a high quality factory car, like a Honda, a Toyota, etc. That means
body panels that
fit with tidy seams that don't waver and vary, that means body panel materials
that
don't have sand marks, grooves, wavy and warped expanses, or god forbid, a
Coleman ice cooler
texture!I think every vehicle producer's goals are these, from early Honda's
and Kia's to Solectria's, Th!nk's, and CommuterCars Tango's. This is not ICE
or EV dependent.
To get the ultimate in acceleration 'performance'...,
To get the ultimate in handling 'performance'..., Why must you separate
acceleration and handling out? I think Lee's point was that the vehicle needs
to be overall good at everything. Sure, one can build a fast EV, or one that
handles well, or one that goes a long range, but hardly ever one that can do
all three.
For a long time, I've held my breath every time someone, including Lee, raves
about the
Solectria Sunrise, all because it ran so far on a charge using hand selected,
cherry-picked, hand built NiMH Ovonics' best batteries. People rave about any
vehicle that surpasses the norm, whether it's your White Zombie being the
fastest, or the Sunrise for it's long range. Until the T-zero, those two were
mutually exclusive. I won't get into pricing right now.
>From Jerry Dycuss:
>Of all the EV's built the Sunrise seems to be the best one if it can be put
>into
>production.
What on earth, makes it 'the best'? Other than an impressive range per charge,
and
that's only because of it's enormous ahr capacity from 'unobtantium' Ovonics
hand-selected
batteries, this car does not excel at 'anything'...in fact, it is inferior to
even
marginal vehicles. It had potential to be the best because it's "plan" was to
be offered at something reasonable, like $20K.
I saw it again at EVS 14 back in '97 in Orlando...sat in it, checked it out
from top to bottom, and drove it.
Even back then, Lee was going on about this 'car'. Gotta tell ya folks....it
looks like a 5
year old built this! It had a poor quality (at best) composite body that makes a
Corrvette's wavy fiberglass panels look straight. For starter's, everyone's
work next to yours looks like a 5 year old did it. Second, anyone who has ever
prepared a project around a show's date rather than the project's schedule's
date knows compromises are made to hit the best marketing opportunities. As
for comparing it against the Corvette, why bother when GM has been doing it for
over 40 years and endless resources (manpower and money).Their AC drive system
is about as wimpy as they come, and
the transmitted noise inside the car made you think you were driving a
thrashing machine. Driving it
was a depressing experience, with the word 'acceleration' seemingly unsuitable
to use as a
term.No one will argue that their AC drive system was gutsy. Worden cared
about efficiency above all else so he chose to eek as much out of batteriesas
possible using minimal power requirements. Making the car aerodynamic and
lightweight helped the small drivetrain perform better.
Some may remember, that years ago on this very EV discussion list, Solectria's
Karl
Tiedemann was boasting about their products' 0-50 performance in 'under 12
seconds'In the end, I showed how Solectria was trying to put a positive spin on
what was really a horrible 0-60 time, by using the
smoke and mirrors tactic of using the lesser 0-50 stats instead, hoping that the
automotive-challenged would buy it...many in fact, did. John, every company
does it's best to dress up their date the best they can. You work with what
you've got and hope that it will get better. It's called spin and the
political arenas have been proving exactly how good it works lately, even when
people know it's spin!
>From David Roden:
>The Sunrise is a remarkable EV, in many ways a much more sophisticated
>design than the EV-1.
(finger in mouth, gaggg) Better than an EV-1? I don't think David meant it was
a better car than an EV1. He said the design in some ways could be considered
more sophisticated. This couldbe as simple as choosing an all composite body
vs. plastic panels on aluminum frame, or designing a 4 seater vs. a 2 seater.
Let's see...Sunrise, 0-60 in an agonizing 17 seconds...EV-1, 0-60 in 7.6
seconds (Road
&
track tested).
Sunrise, wavy, ill-fitting body panels...EV-1, the look, fit,
and
feel of a quality import.
Sunrise, creaking body, tacky interior...EV-1, solid body,
nicely
assembled interior.Again, comparing a production car to a hand built concept
car is not apples to apples. Early Impacts would not have passed your sniff
test either.
When I hear people put this insanely over-priced, The GOAL was reasonably
priced, even cheaper than the EV1.less than kit car quality, with more time and
money, I'm sure it would have surpassed kit car quality.funny looking, Highly
subjective... like those people that may say old Datsuns are funny looking
<grin>miserable accelerating, poor handling vehicle up on a pedestal, I get
nauseous.Do you really believe that Solectria would not have made it faster and
handle better by the time it was to be released to the public?
Give me (or anyone else who knows cars) the same pack of precious, hand-picked,
large
capacity NiMH Ovonics batteries, and the insane dollar budget, and I'll
easily match this car's range performance, but I'll also do it with a car that
has
pride and quality poured into it, a car that can pin you in the seat with real
acceleration,
a car that has real cornering ability, etc.Give me a break! I don't know
anyone who worked on the Sunrise project, but I can bet they poured their heart
and soul into it. Worden always got the best batteries to win races. Good for
him. But the production cars would have received production batteries.The
"insane dollar amount" went into a variety of resources other than producing
the 1 (or 5) rolling chassis that may have moved on their own power. It was
not so see how much money can be spent to make a single car. It was a real
lesson in how much money ittakes to design a car and figure out all the puzzle
pieces to make it producible and a profitable adventure, all while hoping the
market will appear. Their design may have been focused on Main Street, ones
that don't value "real" acceleration, or "real" cornering ability like you do.
I would dare to say that the most popular cars sold today lack real
acceleration or cornering ability.
Sunrise, brought to you by the same 'smart engineers' who
brought us the $40k Geo Metro!!! Yup, you just have to use 'smart engineers who
understand electric vehicle design' to come up with a Geo Metro that has truly
awful
acceleration, a severely limited top speed, mediocre hill pulling ability,
and has the same range as a backyard, $8k DC powered EV conversion, all for
just $40k!!Now you are really pouring it on thick! Really, I've got $8K worth
of DC parts in my garage. Can you make it go 40-50 miles for me?Not without
about $15K in labor and a donor car. You can't compare someone's conversion
(with no value given to the car or labor)to a brand new vehicle who's
conversion took place at a place of business that had to make a profit to keep
the doors open. Not to mention technical support, manuals, insurance,
overhead, marketing, sales, etc. Those factors caused the price to be $40K.
The backyardconversion has none of that. Granted, I thought the Force was slow
too, but for it's target market, it worked fine (and sold more than any other).
Sure, the Geo body was ugly, but it was light and cheap, and that's what they
were looking for. Just like the Sunrise.
with a
caption that states how 'today's modern EVs can go as fast as 65 mph!'. As I
read the
charger's mantra and am plugging in my 30 year old Datsun conversion that can
bury its
100mph speedo and melt the tires at will, I get sick.How much would you charge
to purchase, convert, and sell me a 30 year old Datsun conversion like yours
that does what you say? Don't forget the warranty, and a repeatable 40-50 mile
range, regardless of temperature, and air conditioning.
>From Lee Hart:
> Trying to convert an ICE car into an EV
> is always challenging. The smaller the car, the worse the problems get.
Yes, these are correct statements...but, trying to design, build, and properly
execute
a ground-up EV into a real 'car' that has the look, finish, feel, and
performance (in all
senses of the word) is even more challenging!
See Ya.....John WaylandAgreed, but so what? We've all been trying to convert
ICE stuff. It's great to know that CommuterCars, Th!nk, and others are
takingon the bigger challenge. Marc Kohler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher wrote:
>the motor is in the queue at Warfield now.
Any chance of posting some pics of it when you get it? I haven't been
able to get a good look at that motor yet. It's very elusive.. (how
many do they have queued up anyways and how long is it going to take
them to "build it"? Who originally made the 13"? Or does Warfield
cast/forge/machine the motor from raw materials themselves? ;)
Also not to be nosey or prying or anything..(that motor appeals to me
too); where did you get it and how much was it? You don't have to
answer that if you don't want too.
> the numbers I've gotten from Netgain look *very* impressive.
Anything you can repost? Info seems non existent on it..
> For me, among other things, I'm still trying to decide ... ARB Air Locker
> for open-diff mild manners on the street with a switch to lock the wheels
> up for racing, or a Detroit Locker for that ratcheting, all-around hard
> core attitude? :o)
What's a spool like on the street? It's cheaper and lighter weight
and more "bullet proof"..
The thing about that air locker is the pump that will be sapping on
your pack. I'd go with the locker over the air model. What pack
voltage and batteries are you planning on using? Are you just going
to mount them all in the bed?
Got any pics of the truck in progress?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Just want to let everyone know we have a website up
> now. Please feel free to look around and let us know
> of any improvements that we can make to it. We are
> also want to gauge what the market demand is for a
> city-class electric vehicle such as the Smart EV.
> Any feedback would be great.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ivan Workman
> Riker Electric Vehicles Corporation
> (909) 964-3488
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Just want to let everyone know we have a website up
> now. Please feel free to look around and let us know
> of any improvements that we can make to it. We are
> also want to gauge what the market demand is for a
> city-class electric vehicle such as the Smart EV.
> Any feedback would be great. Website Address is:
> www.rikerelectricvehicles.com
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ivan Workman
> Riker Electric Vehicles Corporation
> (909) 964-3488
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts said:
> Christopher wrote:
>
>>the motor is in the queue at Warfield now.
>
> Any chance of posting some pics of it when you get it? I haven't been
> able to get a good look at that motor yet. It's very elusive.. (how
> many do they have queued up anyways and how long is it going to take
> them to "build it"? Who originally made the 13"? Or does Warfield
> cast/forge/machine the motor from raw materials themselves? ;)
My understanding is that the Warp 13 is an original design intended
specifically for racing; it's not a rework of another motor, hence the
dual windings for series/parallel switching. Netgain has Warfield making
them from scratch. I hope to get a website going soon; I'll post
everything including detailed motor pics as soon as the action starts.
Also, Warfield is reportedly swamped with orders for Netgain motors.
Mostly 8's and some 9's. Lead times on any Warp motors are around 16
weeks, last time I checked (a couple weeks ago). As annoying as it might
be if you're in a hurry (I'm certainly not), I can only consider such a
backlog to be the evidence of overall good news for Netgain.
>
> Also not to be nosey or prying or anything..(that motor appeals to me
> too); where did you get it and how much was it? You don't have to
> answer that if you don't want too.
No secrets here ... Netgain has several resellers around the country and
elsewhere. The closest one to me is Matches Motors (www.matchesmotors.com)
and Mark Klemkosky has shown enormous patience in handling my somewhat
abnormal order. :o) Prices are on his site. The Warp 13 is officially
still "experimental" but that doesn't mean you can't buy one.
>
>> the numbers I've gotten from Netgain look *very* impressive.
>
> Anything you can repost? Info seems non existent on it..
I need to work out with Netgain what's public and what's not. They've
sent me some data that's confidential, so I will assume all of it is until
I get some clarification. One way or another though, any testing I do on
my finished vehicle will be posted on the website.
> What's a spool like on the street? It's cheaper and lighter weight
> and more "bullet proof"..
John Wayland has described the experience here on the list, back when he
was driving his White Zombie on the street with a spool (he has since
switched to a Detroit, IIRC). It's not pleasant but it's doable in a
pinch. It puts strain on the axles and wears the tires down in a hurry. It
is very light however, and cheaper, being a single piece of metal.
As far as "bullet proof" goes, you don't hear too many stories about folks
busting a Detroit or an ARB. It happens, but it's pretty rare.
> The thing about that air locker is the pump that will be sapping on
> your pack. I'd go with the locker over the air model. What pack
Only when you use it, and beyond that, only if it leaks (which seems to
point to an incorrect installation, from what I've read). I'm thinking
about having an air suspension anyway, and the air compressor could be
useful for both. Assuming a miracle occurs and I manage to install
everything with no leaks, I figure most typical trips would not involve
adjustment or activation of either system, and so no compressor activity.
The problem with the Detroit Locker is the torque required to ratchet the
outer wheel past the speed of the inner wheel. In wet or slippery
conditions, the outer wheel sometimes would rather slide, and so in those
situations the Detroit Locker can actually *reduce* traction in a turn
compared to a simple open differential (or inactive Air Locker). Anyway,
I'm still mulling it over.
> voltage and batteries are you planning on using? Are you just going
> to mount them all in the bed?
Planning for 348V, under the bed and under the hood. As much weight
between the axles as possible. Empty bed, hopefully with some capacity
left over for a little bit of hauling capability, but of course this is
probably wishful thinking.
> Got any pics of the truck in progress?
I'm looking forward to the truck being in progress. :o) Nothing's
happened with the truck yet; I'm still driving it on the ICE for trips to
Home Despot and such. Again I'm planning to set up a website for it, which
will happen Really Soon Now. Since for some reason I couldn't resist
keeping the tradition of shamefully cheesy, inexcusably punful EV names,
the truck is going to be called the Ohmbre (har har ... groan) and the
website will be at www.ohmbre.org. Not that there's anything there now
but the registrar's parking page.
--chris
--- End Message ---
