EV Digest 4216
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: American business model
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1--let's go to the next step
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Tax Credit
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solectria Sunrise as a replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: question for battery gods
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Tax Credit
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Yahoo EVList
by Michael Shipway <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: American business model
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tax Credit
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Tax Credit
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 Keeping the Pot Boiling!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Solectria Sunrise as a replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1--let's go to the next step
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: transmission plate adapters
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1
by Scott Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Making your own adapter.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> David Roden wrote:
>> The question is, would any of the Korean mfgs. be willing to sell
>> gliders?
>> And how much would import duty and transport costs add?
>
> The thought that comes immediately to my mind is logistics in regards
> to gliders.
>
> How do they get cars here from over seas?
Umm, what difference does it make? You either pay for gliders that are
delivered, in which case it's their problem. Or you pay for them FOB and
higher a shipper, in which case it's the shippers problem.
They move heavy stuff around the world everyday that they can't drive
on/off the carriers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 21, 2005, at 9:10 AM, Rush wrote:
I don't know how many of you are on the EVList from yahoo, but a
perfect example of fragmentation that undermines the EV concept has,
in my opinion, just appeared there.
Hmmm... comments below.
George Clooney has ordered a Tango T600, or at least wants one
quickly....
<snip>
Anybody care to contact him to let him know that there is a group of
EV experts that want to start producing a new, viable, EV? In fact
does somebody want to propose to him that for $85K, a group of us
experts (not me for sure) will produce a special EV for him that will
go 100 MPH, have a 150 Mile trip, (just pulling numbers out of the
air) and have it ready in the time frame he wants?
Commuter Cars has already beat us to this market. Let them have this
sale - they worked for it, and they've got a product already. The
project we're discussing here is in a different price bracket anyway,
right? We're looking at mass-market (means affordable) EVs, not a
top-of-the-line-no-compromises-leather-interior-$4000-dashboard-vehicle
such as the Tango.
IMO, making a suggestion like this to George Clooney would be a
"perfect example of fragmentation" of the EV market. We've got a
company that's designed an excellent EV from scratch, and they've sold
one! And you're proposing to call up the guy who ordered it and say
"Don't buy that one, buy this other one we haven't designed yet"?
As far as I know, the only company making a custom-designed EV for sale
is Commuter Cars. They're the entire market right now! Maybe I'm
misunderstanding you, but it seems to me like we all ought to support
Commuter Cars and not try to fragment this market by trying to compete
with them just yet. Let's at least wait until we've got a product :)
Just a thought, but an exciting one. Feasible? I don't know, but I
would surely think it might be worth it, both financially and PR wise.
It would have to be a 'I gotta drop everything to build an EV for
George Clooney for $85K' type effort.
I don't see this as buying us anything worthwhile. He needs his car
NOW, and I don't see how we can build him one that can be trusted to
perform well in such a short time. We need to design it, build one,
test the snot out of it, redesign it, build another one, etc. until
we've got something someone might want to buy. Throwing together
something and giving it to a movie star is far more likely to hurt the
EV cause than help it. Remember the actress whose electric car burned
down her house and killed her dog?
I think before we try to get money from anyone, we'll need a convincing
business plan. We could do the design first (might make the business
plan stronger), but without a business plan we get no money and can't
build anything anyway.
Rush
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard a few mention tax credits. Are those limited to some states
only, I couldn't find one for california and the federal law specifcly
excludes conversions or BEV's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a thought, Patents can be licensed or sold. What if the newly
formed "EVlist inc" gathered togather enough funds to buy the rights
from GM for the EV-1?
Even if GM says no, perhaps we could create some great PR, get Jay leno
involved??
headline "Following EV1-vigle, group offers GM 2 million for patent
rights to EV1"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should of been more explicid, They ARE deep cycle, supposedly their
better heavy duty ones.
The caps are recessed, hard to get to, wondering if that means they are
implying maintanence free, but it wasn't advertised so :-(
I found the reserve info but I am asking for peoples experience with
these if any.
Are their interconnects wimpy and blow like fuses? do they sag under
load so bad that they are usless for EV use?
if I only have a zilla 1k, where does the line cross as I acelerate with
a 240 volt pack and a warp 9
first I am in motor limit at 1000 motor amps because the zilla
translates the voltage to current for me
then BEMF rises and eventually I get to the point wher I am pulling 650
amps battery limit , What speed could I expect that to be at?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:37 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Tax Credit
>
> I have heard a few mention tax credits. Are those limited to some states
> only, I couldn't find one for california and the federal law specifcly
> excludes conversions or BEV's
>
That's NOT True!
The following comes from IRS Pub 535.
Notice Para 1. Yes it specifically excludes conversion.
Now notice Para 2. Yes, it specifically INCLUDES conversions.
Clean-fuel vehicle property. Clean-fuel vehicle property is either of
the following kinds of property.
1. A motor vehicle (defined earlier) produced by an original equipment
manufacturer and designed to be propelled by a clean-burning fuel. These
include designated hybrid gas-electric automobiles which, at this time,
only include the Ford Escape, Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid, and
Toyota Prius. Those designated automobiles do not qualify for the electric
vehicle credit. For other than those designated automobiles, the only part
of a vehicle's basis that qualifies for the deduction is the part
attributable to:
a. A clean-fuel engine that can use a clean-burning fuel,
b. The property used to store or deliver the fuel to the engine, or
c. The property used to exhaust gases from the combustion of the fuel.
2. Any property installed on a motor vehicle (including installation
costs) to enable it to be propelled by a clean-burning fuel if:
a. The property is an engine (or modification of an engine) that can
use a clean-burning fuel, or
b. The property is used to store or deliver that fuel to the engine or
to exhaust gases from the combustion of that fuel.
For vehicles that may be propelled by both a clean-burning fuel and any
other fuel, your deduction is generally the additional cost of
permitting the use of the clean-burning fuel.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd agree that this is the main _general purpose_ mailing list.
There are, however, numerous focused EV lists, which we periodically get
quotes from on this list.
For example: Sparrows, electric boats, Prius+, renewable energy...
Can anyone recommend a website that has a nice long list of these
related mailing lists?
Mike Shipway
Rush wrote:
Lawrence...
Read the heading...
New within the past 7 days
But if you care to scroll down you'll see in the Message History Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
2005 12 11 19
2004 15 2 9 7 9 13 28 21 7 20 16 6
2003 4 8 3 2 7 5 14 7
and if you care to clik on the members link, you'll see that there are
about 140 members...
next time before you put the pedal to the metal... read to the end - get the
facts straight
But you are right - this is the MAIN list.
Rush
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They run in china, there was an experience here with soviert lada, ugly,
unconfotable, outdated, but reliable, still running after 20 years.
Regarding "in pieces", it dos not have to come dissasembled, in pieces is a
point of invoice, since there is no motor, it's not a car, so as long as it
come pre assembled, without front end, fendesr and hoos, in anu country that
should be "pieces".
If you don't like chinese, there is always the chance of buying Korean.
ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Lee Hart
Enviado el: lunes, 21 de marzo de 2005 19:44
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: American business model
Ivo Jara wrote:
> Ok, Let's take it a little further, to reduce cost, let's get a modern
> flier, I have heard that complete cars in china are about 3.000 US$ brand
> new, this price is the estimated price at which these cars will arrive
next
> year to Chile, so they must be at least 30% cheaper in China.
>
> Take a look a them: http://www.geelymetop.com/c001.htm
Hmm... you have a point here. I'm in the USA, and I'm sure it would be
nigh onto impossible to import one as a finished vehicle and get it
licensed.
However, I wonder if you could buy it in pieces, and ship it in that
way. Assemble it here, and *I* become the "manufacturer". By building it
as an EV, I sidestep all the pollution requirements. In most states, the
remaining requirements for a home-built vehicle are pretty lax. They
might treat it like any other kit-car.
Of course, I have to wonder if these Chinese cars are in fact pieces of
junk that I wouldn't drive, no matter what...
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 18/03/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard a few mention tax credits. Are those limited to some states
only, I couldn't find one for california and the federal law specifcly
excludes conversions or BEV's
That's NOT True!
Actually, you're both right. Conversions can not apply for the Electric
Vehicles _Credit_ ( 10% the purchase price of a new EV, up to a max
credit of $4000, phased out this year IIRC).
Conversions do qualify for the "Clean Fuels" _Deduction_ (you can deduct
up to $3000 of the parts cost to convert an existing vehicle to a
"cleaner" fuel (CNG, Propane, Electric, whatever).
For anyone unfamiliar. A credit is basically the government giving you
money, it applies directly to your tax bill and if you overpaid you get
it as a refund. A deduction only reduces your taxable income. So
deductions are worth only about 25-30% of the value of a credit. (Major
simplification, consult a qualified tax advisor)
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oregon's is 750 for car; 750 for charger. You didn't
mention what state you were from. Basically, it's 25%
of the cost of each, but the state actually called me
up and told me the car was showing up as too
expensive. EVentually, we decided to put my batteries
and DCDC converter under "charger", (after all, it
does charge a battery), and everyone was happy.
SAVE ALL OF YOUR RECEIPTS!!!
Go to
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p535/ch12.html#d0e10778
and you will see that one can write off the charger
without bending/breaking any rules.
If this isn't satisfactory, purchase a 10,000 lb. SUV
(gas burner) and get most of it written off as a
"bid'ness expense". Sheesh.
(:-<
Hope that helps.
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have heard a few mention tax credits. Are those
> limited to some states
> only, I couldn't find one for california and the
> federal law specifcly
> excludes conversions or BEV's
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:41 AM
Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
>
> On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:48 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Doug Weathers wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:40 AM, jerry dycus wrote:
> >>> If Selectria doesn't want to play, it would be
> >>> easy to take a mold off of it and do the rest from
> >>> scratch with many more power, batt options if we can
> >>> talk the owner into it. The Sunrise's aero is very
> >>> good.
Hi EVerybody;
My two Watts worth;
OK We hafta TALK to Solectria, or the outfit that merged with them, or
James Worden, himself.
> >>> Or take a mold from any car for that matter. It's
> >>> easy, much easier, lower cost than building from
> >>> scratch and gives you sources of windshields, ect.
> >> For darn sure! We berate the Chinese about this, they help themselves
to any patented or copywritten property, with NO thought of payment. We
don't wanna be cast in the same mould. I don't wanna diss the Good Folks in
China, but they do biz to their own drummer!
> >> On Mar 20, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
> >>>
> >>> What if we form a corporation. Each investor buys X shares of stock
> >>> to
> >>> raise $50,000. Let's say there are 50 investors of $1000 each.
> >>>
> >>> The corporation buys the Solectria Sunrise currently being offered
> >>> for
> >>> sale. The car is then carefully reverse-engineered, thoroughly
> >>> documented, and the plans provided to the investors.
> >>
> >> IANAL, but both of these proposals sound like theft of intellectual
> >> property.
> > Yup You can bet your bottom battery on that!
> > But engineers and scientists would call it business as usual. :-)
> Shanghai , Peijing, Anywhere else in the Middle Kingdom(China)
> Probably not if those engineers and scientists work for a (for-profit)
> business. Or more specifically, if the products they are copying
> belong to a competing business.
>
> We can't go around making exact copies of someone else's product and
> trying to sell the copies. It doesn't matter that GM doesn't intend to
> ever produce another EV1 itself. The point is that the design of the
> EV1 belongs to GM, and if we copy it by taking a mold of the body or
> duplicating its circuits or copying the code out of the ROMs on the
> computers, then we are stealing GM's intellectual property.
>
> And they can shut us down with a lawsuit we have no desire or resources
> to fight.
> You BETTER believe! If they can stop you from BUYING one you KNOW yur
going to jail for stealing it! Best Lawyers on the planet!
> > The whole point is that you learn from others. The Sunrise (and EV1 and
> > the other recent high-tech EVs) represent tremendous advancements in
> > the
> > state of the art of EVs.
> Yes, they have raised the bar. The EV-1 is a proven product! All of
you, me included , who has DRIVEN an EV-1 and lived to tell about it. It is
the Gold Standard for electric cars. It tears our hearts out to see them
crushed. But it sparks a desire to DO something. OK a better one? Christ!
Lets do at least half as well!If we can settle on a one car fits all. EV=1
is a nitch market, like those rediculous Hummers. I'd be willing to bet that
they advertised the EV-1 as well as the Hummer they would sold a bunch! I t
is a sacrilidge to EVen mention a Hummer in the same paragraph as an EV-1
anyhow. But wanted to make a point!
> Again, I'm not a lawyer, but the whole point of copyright law is to
> allow a company to make a profit from their labors, and not to spread
> the knowledge around until the copyright expires. Without that as a
> profit motive, there would be less incentive for companies to invent
> new things. Why should a Solectria or a GM spend millions to billions
> of bucks on something that a competitor could just immediately copy and
> resell without paying for the R&D?
> THANK YOU! We would be bummed out big time if, say, the Chinese copied
our Patriot, or other worthy dream car, flooded OUR market. Chinese PFC-20's
EVen in Manzanita Micro green, flooding the net, at 200 bux, built in a
Chinese Army labor camp. Knocking the hell out of Rich's work! Samo Samo
with Chinese Zillas.
> Granted, this isn't the only motivation that makes people create cool
> new things - witness open source software, non-profit organizations,
> artists, and this proposal to get EVs into our own and everyone else's
> hands. There's a lot of tension between people who want to tighten
> copyright laws and people who want them loosened up. At the moment the
> copyright people are way ahead. Witness the RIAA suing kids and
> grandmothers and people who are already dead (!) for violating music
> copyrights.
> Exactly, I'm on the 78 rpm discussion list, yes! Virginia there IS one,
and the record cartel is pushing for copyrights on the stuff I like to
record and listen to, even though it has been out of print since the Titanic
went down! Like if I were to sell cassettes called "Music to Build El;ectric
Cars by" Pop music from the teens and twenties. Great stuff, semds J Wayland
screaming from the room<g>!"LOWFI" Eaaach! Alota this stuff IS public
domain, but copyrights can be renewed. Did ya know " Happy Birthday" is
copywrtten STILL. From a 90's tune, 1890's "Good Morning to You", , based,
somebody hung on to the copyright. SOooo they CAN hafta pay royalties for
public performances, like in a restaurant, but we get away with it just the
same. See what ya learn on a 78 record List<g>!
> Learning from others is good, but stealing from others is bad.
>
AHmen
> > It would be a foolish waste to just crush them
> > or bury them in some warehouse or museum, and never use that knowledge.
>
> I agree, but this doesn't change the fact that someone owns the designs
> of the Sunrise, the EV1, and to every other car on the road. If the
> folks who own the design want to bury it, they're allowed to do that
> and we're not allowed to prevent it. For example, you might think it's
> a foolish waste for me to throw away my TV after it stops working, even
> though you know exactly how to fix it. That doesn't give you the right
> to steal the TV out of my house, or even out of my garbage can. All
> you can do is ask me to give it to you, and I'm within my rights to
> charge you money for it or tell you to take a hike. I can even throw
> away my brand-new, perfectly working TV, and replace it with a much
> bigger, uglier one that uses way too much energy. (Hmmm....)
> Or ,better yet throw away the TV,and spend that time redesigning a
Better Car.
> > If Solectria (or GM or Ford or...) had any plans to actually produce
> > these vehicles, then it would be different. But they do not! Frankly,
> > if
> > any of them did, I would be more than happy to abandon my efforts to
> > build my own, and would simply buy it from them!
>
We can all agree on that!
> That's a moral argument, not a legal one. Just because I'm not
> watching my TV doesn't mean that I no longer deserve to have it and
> you're therefore allowed to take it away from me. You need some sort
> of legal excuse to get that TV, like I've stopped making payments on it
> or I stole it from you to begin with. Or you need to convince a jury
> that the immorality of my TV-ignoring behavior is so heinous that it
> justifies you breaking the law.
>
Or in our case, driving around with one moving part in the motor! Passing
gas stations. If the powers that be had their way, that would be a capital
crime! Hell! In OR they subcharge your tag for lost revenue if you drive
electric or hybrid, cuz they lose revenue. Right?
No NOT right, they should PAY you for helping clean up the air. Gas tax
revenue could help make it worth it for bizes to put out public outlets, for
EV customers! Tax breaks?
> Whether or not the car manufacturers plan to produce the vehicles we're
> thinking about copying is not the point. In fact, the evidence
> suggests that GM doesn't want any EV1s on the road even if it costs
> them all the money they've sunk into the project to date, and even if
> they can make a profit on selling them. They are likely to spend even
> MORE money to make sure the EV1 stays dead. That probably means suing
> the pants off of anyone who tries to resurrect it without their
> permission.
> Exactly. Don't you think at GM, those guyz lay awake nights with
heartburn, thinking that EV's COULD cartch on, like VW Beetles did 50 years
ago. Wiping out the $ervice and parts depts, Midas, Jiffy Lube all those
guys! We still would have carwashes ,brake and tire places, though, as tire
outfits poured money in to true low RR tires!Battery shops, replacment
battery shops, or if car is easy to swap out packs, to swap them out for
fresh ones on a longer trip. then you'd never be stuck with a dead , warn
out battery!
> The point is, THEY own the designs, WE do not. We will be STEALING if
> we copy their designs without permission, or without making enough
> changes so that a jury can be convinced that our vehicle is an original
> work. Taking a mold of a car and selling exact duplicates is not going
> to get past a jury. If there's a reasonable chance that someone could
> mistake our copy for the original, we're infringing.
>
Form follows function. That's why freight Diseasel Lokies all pretty
much look the same. Our car would resemble an EV-1 or a Sunrise because of
aerodymanics, if we started from scratch.
> I strongly recommend adding a lawyer to the team ASAP, before anyone
> does any work that will have to be thrown away as infringing.
> I sed that before. Any lawyers among us?
> Lee, I'm sure you know all of this, having worked for large companies
> developing products. What am I missing here?
>
> Bust me! <g>! Stealing Lees ideas! But I sure like the thought lines
here.
Sounds like we need to sign Geo. Clooney and Jay Leno to the List.
they don't know what's going on in EV's. Ivan Workman has set up a nice
website, Riker Electrics. Borrowing an honored old name in EV's for revival.
Google Riker, check it out!100 years ago Riker was doing cool stuff with
EV's. He is wanting to import the electric Smarts. Zytec in England is doing
them electric. A Think replacment? And Zebra batterires, no less!
If Geo Clooney could BUY a Zytec, is it built? Ivan sez that there are
test ones running around in England. Call him, check it out. I did. I would
like the Tango to GO, after all they have been working so hard at Commuter
Cars to get it going!!Jey Leno buys one , 50 cent, if he were to give up his
Hummer. Lots of celebs out there, I don't follow their doings, but they have
big trendsetting BUX! Martha Stewert? Better living electrically? Dress up
that ugly plug in the garage<g>!Alexandria Paul.?Gees, she's been busted
,suporting our cause!
> > --I think it's time to write a nice letter to Solectria, see if they
want to play? Anybody from Solectria lerking? Talk to us, please. A biz
proposal?
Again my two Ohms worth
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Solectria Sunrise as a replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
> Here is a thought, Patents can be licensed or sold. What if the newly
> formed "EVlist inc" gathered togather enough funds to buy the rights
> from GM for the EV-1?
>
> Even if GM says no, perhaps we could create some great PR, get Jay leno
> involved??
>
> headline "Following EV1-vigle, group offers GM 2 million for patent
> rights to EV1"
>
> Hi Again;
Nice thoughts but 2 Mil isn't EVen pocket change to GM, like I don't
stop to pick up a penny on the street. They would up the ante to 10 mil to
keep EV's DEAD! As long as gas were avalable at whatever cost!
Now if Jay Leno wanted to start his OWN Car Co?? He has a nice garage,
for starters<g>! If HE were motivated to talk to Solectria?Or do it himself.
He has friends that are probably car engineers?
>
> More thoughts
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
I have visions of people standing on the Titanic after it has hit the
iceberg; talking, discussing, debating, arguing endlessly on as the ship
sinks. Denial ("This ship will never sink"). Blaming ("It's all their
fault. We should sue!"). Expecting someone else to solve the problem for
you ("Let's just follow orders. I'm sure those in charge know what's
best"). And the "techies" would be arguing about whether to build a raft
out of deck chairs, or a balloon out of the bedsheets.
Yes and what's madding is there where perfectly good "life boats" but
because they won't perfect were not put on the boat .
Ladies and gentlemen, it's time to DO something! Detroit won't save us.
The government won't save us. They are part of the problem, not the
solution!
Maybe we're looking at it two close, we are looking at how to make EV's work
and all the little details, . Allot of times when I get in a place where I'm
trying to make something work and if it doesn't , I just keep trying the
same thing or something close, .
Here are some off the wall ideas
a pop song, sung by some big name singer ,///// gas burning blues ,
t shirt , or line of shirts with , " in your face lines " "Tired of being
humped by the camel get an electric car and start plugging today"
Get a breakfast cereal or other food to put a ev massage on there box. ,
could have a ev car with specks and picture on the back , starting with the
ev1
a good April fools joke , that some how gets the ev massage out.
" did you hear that GM and the government are going to work together to get
electric cars on the road" ? " There going to put a $1 tax on each gallon
which will go right to GM to build EV's . "
What I propose is a conference; a convention. We agree to get together
physically, somewhere, somehow, to start seriously discussing what to
do. Form an organization to start DOING what needs to be done!
I'll say this , its a lot more fun building an ev with some friends than by
your self , and being on the list can kind of be like that . Working with a
group of dedicated people for a good cause , great , but we are far apart ,
this we have to deal with ,
--
If you would not be de gassed
When your engine's dead at last
Then breath the air not worth the breathing
and send your son's to do their bleeding
steve clunn
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
There's a pretty nice list of "off the shelf" adapters here:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
~$750 though..
...and worth every penny! I haven't regretted once having Electro Auto
make my adapter plate and coupler.
Even though I've made a few I would agree with you for the first timer,
getting the project on the road is of most importance , making the adapter
could hold the whole thing up ,
Sure, it could be done cheaper - but
is that worth the peace of mind that the beautifully designed work of
Electro Auto gives?
yep
Is it worth the risk of getting it all together and
finding out it vibrates when you hit 4000 rpm?
The problem is if they don't make one for the car your doing , I was ready
to buy one for my last conversion but a pinto tranny was not on any of the
builders list.
>
Speaking of time - just make sure you give them 2 months to finish it.
I'm pretty sure they are usually backed up.
This is a problem for me , when I get going I want to do it now , . I would
not , have a local machinest do one , they are just not with the program
unless they ARe intrested in EV's . \
Steve Clunn .
-Ryan
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Been lurking a while and it's time to send my 2 cents worth out to
the list on this topic...
First, GM and others do monitor this list. The theft of intellectual
property is taken seriously in this country by the big guys, and for
good reason- they own it. Whether they use it or not, if they see
you/us as a threat, they do have some sort of a legal claim on their
developments and at the very least can make a messy time for you in
court, and stop your ability to take the car on the road. You would
do the same in their position if someone was stealing what you owned.
Ain't no way GM is going to let a direct EV1 copy hit the streets.
Most insurance companies are at the very least squeamish about
insuring a homebuilt, non certified car. And for instance in CA I
believe only 500 homebuilts can be registered each year. These are
all things which we as EV enthusiasts would take in stride, but the
general public would not.
However, there is a solution. Solectria made their Sunrise so that a
manufacturer could come along and purchase the plans, the molds, the
federal crash testing results and start producing an electric car
right away. Which means, if you had the startup capital, it would
make sense for you to simply purchase those intellectual property
rights and start with a known quantity and all required
certification.
Lots of discussion about the fit and finish of the Sunrise. My view
is that the car as a platform is generally adequate for most people.
I don't care for the look of the front end, kinda weird. Agree that
the Solectria 78kW system is a bit low in power, they do have a
larger system available that drops right in. Battery containment
system is good, mostly cause it's generic. Charger (3kW) is a bit
small. Interior is very plain, the steering wheel struck me as
disappointing as did the dash (both Geo parts). But overall it is a
good glider for an EV, offering low rolling resistance, good aero,
lots of space and I think a good platform to build on. Most of us
don't have the ability or desire to engineer or build a car
(suspension, wiring, doors) but we all have a rabid fascination with
electric drive and batteries.
I don't think we will ever get an agreement on this list about the
type of drive system to use, motor choice or battery choice. Which
is fine- our diversity really does prove out products and give
everyone access to a wide range of information. The wonderful thing
about having people who believe in what they have, but don't
necessarily agree on what you have keeps us all headed down the road
in a roughly forward manner. We all believe in the same basic goal
at the end of the day and that makes it OK to take your own route to
get there.
So, my suggestion to the list is to get a group buy on a glider with
manual transmission. In short, an open source platform for building
your own electric car. Every now and then the question is asked,
what is the best car to convert? Lots of different answers for
different reasons, but at the end of the day it needs to be light,
sturdy, have adequate space for people and things, cheap to maintain,
easy to get parts for and be aerodynamically efficient.
The options that we squabble over are left up to the individual to
decide at that point:
-Type and cost of motor
-Type and cost of batteries
-Type and cost of charger
Of course you have to do your own work to get the motor to attach to
the transmission, mount to the car, etc. If you want to be able to
shift gears, you can add a gearshift lever. If you want to lock the
transmission in a gear and use AC system, you can. Options are up to
you to configure...
And you choose your own batteries as well. The center tunnel is
available with the little wheels on the battery tray (I like this
design feature) and there is lots of trunk space and under seat space
for those of you who need the real estate and enjoy building battery
boxes.
If someone was brave, and had a lot of money, they could sell to the
general public. As far as commercializing goes, I feel the average
consumer needs the following things to consider electric as a real
choice, and so these should be considered when building the glider in
the hopes someone will make something public friendly:
For my money, the public salable EV has a 100 mile range, battery
life of 5 years at 10,000 miles per year (50k miles), average
acceleration and a top speed of 75mph.
1. Warranty, service and support. We all do our own, they don't want
to. This is a choice!
2. Reliability and lack of maintenance. This includes batteries.
Flooded lead acid is cheap, but requires service. My feeling here
for the general public is AGM, NiMh or NiCd. It costs more up front,
but the lack of service and support pay for themselves in the end.
There are no RAV4's that have had a battery fail, many have over
100,000 miles on their packs- that's incredible and a secret that
certain parties don't want out. (Why do you think Texaco-Ovonic sued
to keep Panasonic out of the market?) And reliability/lack of
service will sell these down the road. How do you think Toyota got
so big in this country?
3. Range, for most that I talk with 100 miles is the goal. Though
they never use it, they want to have the fuzzy feeling of security
that they can. (Why else would people buy SUV's that never see
gravel let alone go off road!) Without this range, you cannot sell
the vehicle to Joe Public.
Finally, as far as moving discussion to another list, I agree- but
only when the monies are paid. Until then, leave it here and get
advice from people who aren't going to be part of the paying
contingent for free.
Scott
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Doug Weathers wrote:
We can't go around making exact copies of someone else's product and
trying to sell the copies. It doesn't matter that GM doesn't intend to
ever produce another EV1 itself. The point is that the design of the EV1
belongs to GM, and if we copy it by taking a mold of the body or
duplicating its circuits or copying the code out of the ROMs on the
computers, then we are stealing GM's intellectual property.
And they can shut us down with a lawsuit we have no desire or resources to
fight.
<snip>
Whether or not the car manufacturers plan to produce the vehicles we're
thinking about copying is not the point. In fact, the evidence suggests
that GM doesn't want any EV1s on the road even if it costs them all the
money they've sunk into the project to date, and even if they can make a
profit on selling them. They are likely to spend even MORE money to make
sure the EV1 stays dead. That probably means suing the pants off of
anyone who tries to resurrect it without their permission.
The point is, THEY own the designs, WE do not. We will be STEALING if we
copy their designs without permission, or without making enough changes so
that a jury can be convinced that our vehicle is an original work. Taking
a mold of a car and selling exact duplicates is not going to get past a
jury. If there's a reasonable chance that someone could mistake our copy
for the original, we're infringing.
I strongly recommend adding a lawyer to the team ASAP, before anyone does
any work that will have to be thrown away as infringing.
Lee, I'm sure you know all of this, having worked for large companies
developing products. What am I missing here?
Hi Doug (and all),
I'll tell you what you're missing. You are missing the fact that GM doesn't
have the money to "sue the pants off of anyone", not you, not me, nor any
collective group of us on this list. Nor does GM have the funds "to spend
even MORE money to make sure the EV1 stays dead", other than the minor chump
change they've already spent to hire a few desperate truck drivers hungry
for work who don't seem to mind a minor bit of harassment. (Oh well, I
guess it's a better job than stooping even further than that all the way
down to the level of doing the $200K a year Basra-to-Baghdad run. At least
the greenies and BoobWatch chicks don't carry guns!)
Check this out, which was just published yesterday, and you'll understand
what I'm talking about:
http://www.howestreet.com/mainartcl.php?ArticleId=1046
But why on earth are you worried about such an irrelevant, spent-force
dinosaur like GM? With the sole exception of John Wayland, who seems to be
out of step with almost everyone else on this list, unless I myself have
missed something in following this thread, I thought the general consensus
was that the Sunrise would make a much better candidate for this project
(taking a mold, reverse engineering, and going into small-scale serial
production) than the EV1, not the least of which reason being the Sunrise's
much greater utility as a 5-seat car as opposed to the 2-seat EV1.
Furthermore, I think Wayland's comments about the Sunrise's wavy panels and
what he claims was a 17-second 0-to-60 time were taken out of the context of
the very first prototype, which itself was in a very preliminary state,
having been rushed out to a show before it was even ready. I would take as
more reliable the comments of someone who worked at Solectria and knew the
car well, such as Seth Allen, who I think said he was seeing something like
an 11-second 0-to-60 time for a later, more refined Sunrise. I have seen
some high-resolution, close-up pics of the Sunrise that just sold on eBay,
and from what I could tell, its fit, trim, and finish look as good as any
production vehicle I've ever seen.
Now as for Solectria, I don't think that is a company that you would have to
worry about "suing the pants off of anyone" either, for one thing because
the company doesn't even exist anymore and didn't have the financial
resources to sue anyone before it was bought out a few months ago. The
company had only $1.6 million in assets and was losing $1.8 million a year.
James Worden left the company when it got bought out. So yes, he may still
have the copyright claims to the Sunrise design, but unlike GM, I would
think that Worden could be easily approached by people on this list,
precisely because there are listers who know him well and have worked
closely with him over the years, such as Seth Allen, Mike Brown, and Shari
Prange, to name a few. The thing to do would be to get any of these Worden
confidantes on the list to try to bring James in as a consultant or even
principal on such a deal so that you could take advantage of all of his
wealth of knowledge and experience with the car and in that way work with
him rather than against him by just pirating his design and having to call
his bluff on lawsuit threats and the like. Now of course Worden might not
be interested in this project, as I think it was Seth who may have mentioned
a while back that Worden has lost interest in EVs and is now off developing
new versions of inverters for PVs or something like that. But the guts of
any such car that we would do now, today, would be sufficiently different
from Worden's Sunrise that he wouldn't have any legal grounds to stand on to
"sue the pants off of anyone". For one thing, NiMH is getting long in the
tooth; it's old, obsolescent technology which has only half the energy
density of today's li-ions. There are many of us on the list who have done
and are doing li-ion vehicles that I think we have plenty of expertise in
that regard. Furthermore, I would advocate going with a Siemens motor
rather than Solectria's. For one thing, the Siemens is water-cooled and
thus more durable than Solectria's air-cooled motors, which would explain
the fact that Siemens motors carry a 10-year warranty while Solectria's only
had a 1-year warranty, I believe. Another consideration is who is going to
honor that warranty. Siemens is a healthy, robust, ongoing business, while
as I mentioned, Solectria, as a company, no longer exists, and their
warranties are (probably?) now being honored (I guess?) by the company that
bought them out.
By the way, I agree with Marc Kohler's comments about Ni-Cads being a
non-starter and "having failed in the marketplace (from a support issue)".
For another thing, I think Ni-Cads are also now completely banned in much of
the world, including Europe, where I believe the ban goes into effect this
year. Futhermore, here is a recent post to this list that raises serious
concerns about the quality of support from Saft:
On March 17, 2005, Mark Hanson wrote:
Hi,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is a rep but when I mentioned that the
STM-180's use more water than T-105's and had to be viewed from the side
since occasionally a cell doesn't fill he emailed back, he is terminating
email with me.
Saft apparently doesn't like you to point out any downsides of their
batteries. They should also have handles on them for the price. A
recombinant cap would help with the drinking problem but are 80% eff vs
90% for T-105's due to the chemestry. The positives of course are the
longevity and cold operation, but never run them hot or dry out a cell.
Mark
Finally some of you have mentioned the possibility of starting out with a
3-wheeled vehicle (as that would obviate all of the expensive crash-testing
regulatory requirements since it is legally considered a motorcycle) to
financially prime the pump, as it were, which would hopefully generate
enough initial revenue to then bootstrap off of that to bigger and better
things, with the ultimate goal being a Sunrise-derived and inspired vehicle.
I would second others on the list and concur that that is an excellent idea.
Some have mentioned Jerry's E-Woody. Nothing against that, but speaking of
Marc Kohler, I myself am kind of partial to his Doran
(www.austinev.org/evalbum/243.html). Plus I'll bet Marc might be able to
get us a real sweetheart deal on some high-quality, safe, stable li-ions --
both for the initial Doran and for the follow-on reincarnated novo-Sunrise.
<g>
Charles
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The input shaft doesn't take the side load. The adapter plate and the
sprocket bearing do that. With a motor on each side it might be possible
to do a one belt or chain setup. If you use two sprockets just reverse one
motor. The input shaft can not take any loading. Is there any advantage
reversing one motor?
For balance or some such reason. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Making your own adapter.
With awesome hp a racing VW tranny or Porsche tranny might be needed
to handle it.
Also watch for side loads, the tranny input shaft isn't really
designed for side loads like one belt would give it.
Otmar and Steve Clunn have built Porsches with twin motors connecting
to the tranny.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have a feeling that an adapter based on a VW could be very simple
if the
connector was a sprocket on bearings and just attached to the VW
spline.
Motors would be connected cog or sprocket by belts or chain. If
your hunk
of aluminium at this point meshed up with the tranny all you would
have to
do is drill 4 holes and you are done. Am I wrong? You could put
up to 6
motors on one adapter plate with some awsome hp. I was thinking of
just two
forklift motors and a Zilla. Aught to be fun. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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