EV Digest 4220
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Intellectual property
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: American business model
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Glider source
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A LARGE motor
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Riker Electric Vehicles Website
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) New To Group
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A LARGE motor
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Let's cut each other some slack, OK?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Intellectual property
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Glider source
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: American business model
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New To Group
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Got my donor truck!
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New To Group
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: New To Group
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: American business model
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Intellectual property
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1--let's go to the next step
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit replacement
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: American business model
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Intellectual property
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: New To Group
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: [force_ev] E-10 pick up for sale.
by "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Humm, that sounds right.
But what if you were to come up with a previousely patented "idea"
on your own? Surely it's possible for more than one person or
entity to have the same original idea?
I thought there was some workarround, GuyA patents and produces Product.
GuyB wants to make and sell one without paying GuyA so GuyB gives GuyC
GuyA's Product and sais make something that does what this Product does.
So, GuyC looks at what Product does, but doesn't copy the Product
itself, instead he creates NewProduct that does the same thing that
Product does (solves the same problem). GuyC gives GuyB his requested
NewProduct which he can now produce and sell without involving GuyA.
But it's probably tought for GuyB to convince GuyA that GuyC didn't
learn something he didn't already know from the original Product...
Personally I don't like what IP has turned into, it's protecting GuyA
and not "Product". I think it's intent is to protect the Idea, not the
Owner of the idea, or the person who happened to Discover the idea.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Mar 2005 at 14:47, Lee Hart wrote:
> > Kia and Hyundai might be options, since they've never experimented
> > with EV's, and probably don't have the R&D budget that Honda, GM,
> > etc. have to go to fuel cells as quickly.
Actually, Kia built a prototype true (pluggable) hybrid a few years ago. It
was a pretty nice job, but of course it's unlikely that they'll ever put it
into production.
Hyundai announced a couple of years ago that they were going to build a fool
cell prototype based on their Santa Fe SUV. I think I remember reading that
they did go through with it, but I can't recall any of the details, sorry.
More recently - within the last year - Hyundai built 50 prototype single
fuel mild-hybrids based on the Click. The Korean government financed that
project and is testing them in fleets. They seem to be suggesting that
they'll put some kind of single fuel mild hybrid into production within
about a year.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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To understand the Republican party (or the Democratic party,
for that matter), it is most efficient to look directly at the clients -
or as political scientist Thomas Ferguson would call them, the
"major investors." On that level, the ideological contradictions are
unimportant. Political parties do function as mediating institutions,
only not for voters.
-- William Greider, "Who Will Tell the People"
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, that means that you're either scouring all the auctions to find the one
or two models of car that you'll convert, or you'll be building custom battery
boxes and adapter plates for each one you convert. Then there's the
degreasing, rewiring, checking/replacing tires, washing the body, cleaning
the interior, etc. Then you're still left with a vehicle with a questionable
transmission, dents and scratches, used interior, etc.
By the time you get through all that, maybe you should consider going with
a cheap new glider. An EV with that 'new car smell' might get you farther with
the ex-EV1 crowd, if nothing else.
The best person to ask about used car conversions is Steve Clunn. But I think
he does it for the love of the cars--not necessarily for profit.
Tim
-----
> > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 18:30:18 -0800 (PST)
> From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Fwd: Glider source
> To: EVList <[email protected]>
>
> --- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Subject: Glider source
> > Used car trade-ins
>
> I'm sure everyone has seen one of those regional auction lot's for "dealers
> only." I always
> thought that if I was planning on selling cars, I would be enough of a dealer
> that I could
> qualify
> to get into one of those places. It could be a good source of fairly priced
> gliders.
>
> My plan has always been to build up a small business building conversions.
> With expectations for
> cars so high, why go through all the trouble of reinventing the wheel. The
> biggest reason we are
> so concerned with weight and efficiency is because battery technology is so
> far behind. But I'm
> optomistic that it will improve in the near future. So if batteries get
> better and we don't have
> to worry about weight and range, conversions will work. Then you have a car
> comparable with
> anything on the market including antilock brakes, air bags, AC, etc., etc.
> You become the expert
> on electric drive systems and leave the car designs to others.
>
> I always saw the target audience as commuters living around a major city with
> about a 25 mile
> daily round trip or less. They would use the car for commuting 5 days a week
> and use the
> mini-van
> or SUV for the rest of their driving. The EV should be the second or third
> car in the family. Or
> convert their favorite car. The one they still love, but now it's puking
> smoke and guzzling
> $3/gal
> fuel. And a conversion is a lot cheaper than buying a new car. It won't work
> on economics alone,
> but at least we can make it as easy and familiar as possible.
>
> How big can you grow? Well, how about a production shop building 1, 5, or 20
> cars a week? Take a
> map of the nearest major metropolis (I live near Hartford, CT) in your area
> and draw a circle
> around the center with a 10 mile radius. How many people live in that circle?
> An EV would work
> for
> most of those commuters. If you only appealed to a tenth of a percent, you'd
> still have a huge
> market. Your company can grow as big as you make it or stay as small as you
> want. And there can
> be
> a "chain" of these shops in each major city. Everyone on the list can run
> their own shop while
> supporting each other with help on design and ideas like you are already
> doing now.
>
> Don Cameron has what I see as the right prototype with the Beetle conversion.
> A new enough
> design
> to appeal to many modern car owners. I don't want to say that EV drivers are
> excentric, but I
> always thought the Beetle appeals to those a little off the main stream.
> (I've owned 4 so far.)
> But since you are an expert in electric drive systems, you can convert any
> car the customer
> wants.
>
> Just my hope for the future. We don't have to change the world overnight, but
> if we can keep
> plugging away, a little at a time ... who knows.
>
> Dave Cover
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was the big compound motor from an Electric Railway or an Electric Bus? SF
Muni runs on 600vdc. LR.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:05 PM
Subject: A LARGE motor
I just got back from a long weekend at my cabin in the mountains.
Prime opportunity to create more web content. I was filtering through
my ephoto files for goodies and found something many on this list
would be interested in, I think.
If you look here:
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/400_HP_motor/400_home.htm
You'll find a photo album from the rebuilding of a 400 hp, 600 volt DC
motor.
I put up a lot of other content too, including a partial dissection of
the Honda GX-31 mini-4 stroke engine, very useful for small DC
generators.
http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/Generator/Honda_GX_31_engine/GX_31_home.htm
There is now a site index which makes finding things much easier.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:10 PM -0500 on 3/22/05, Chip Gribben wrote:
Hi Michael,
Ivan would have a more definite answer for you.
Check in from time to time on the website and we will also submit news
announcements concerning the Smart EV here.
Cool. I know I'm in a minority, but I actually like the look of the
Smarts. I don't suppose there's any chance the Smart forfour will be
getting converted and possibly sold by your guys, is there?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings All,
I am in MO and am new to the group. I am committed to converting a vehicle to
EV and only drive 20 miles total per day on average (work 3 miles away). It
sounds perfect for me. I have a pretty well equipped garage and have a lot of
support where I work. I have an engineering background and a wide variety of
mechanical skills so it sounds feasable.
I am certainly looking for recommendations about the best vehicles to convert.
I have looked at some websites but it seems a lot of the older cars like VW
rabbits, etc. are not very available any longer. The GEO seems to be a popular
vehicle as does the S10 pickup.
So...my questions for those who have done this before, what vehicle, motor,
etc. are you using?
I have decided the Advanced Electric DC 203-06-4001 seems to be a popular
choice hp and adapter availablity wise.
Input? Suggestions?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 22:41:55 -0800, "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Was the big compound motor from an Electric Railway or an Electric Bus? SF
>Muni runs on 600vdc. LR.........
>From the chocolate factory at the local M&M Mars plant, where almost
all the M&Ms for this country are made now. No idea what machine it
actually drove. I do know from having been an engineer there a couple
of decades ago that they have a penchant for putting variable speed
drives on loads that don't require it, and they prefer DC motors over
variable speed AC.
That's not even the largest DC motor in the plant. We've rewound an
800hp motor a couple of times. Also buried somewhere deep in the
chocolate factory. They built the chocolate factory since I left so I
don't know much about it.
John
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:05 PM
>Subject: A LARGE motor
>
>
>>I just got back from a long weekend at my cabin in the mountains.
>> Prime opportunity to create more web content. I was filtering through
>> my ephoto files for goodies and found something many on this list
>> would be interested in, I think.
>>
>> If you look here:
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/EV/400_HP_motor/400_home.htm
>> You'll find a photo album from the rebuilding of a 400 hp, 600 volt DC
>> motor.
>>
>> I put up a lot of other content too, including a partial dissection of
>> the Honda GX-31 mini-4 stroke engine, very useful for small DC
>> generators.
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com/Neon_John_site/Generator/Honda_GX_31_engine/GX_31_home.htm
>>
>> There is now a site index which makes finding things much easier.
>>
>> John
>>
>> ---
>> John De Armond
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> http://www.johngsbbq.com
>> http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
>> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>>
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
John De Armond does NOT need to be removed from the list. If you read the
post you so like to snip attacks from you will notice that he is talking
about the public perception of a significant part of the population
(something near 1/2 if elections are any indication.)
I find that this list is *very* quick to attack opinions to the right and
quite slow to remind list memebers to keep in line when they veer into
politics on the left. This creates an artificial EV enviroment that does not
refect the greater public opinion of our EVs.
Perhaps if this list didn't spend so much time bumping into politics his
forays into them would be grounds for removal. However, he is far from the
only example.
Paul Gooch
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> my point is that you would need to look at ALL of GMs patents on
> the EV-1. It's possible that they patented things like "making the
> rear of the vehicle narrower than the front in order to improve
> aerodynamics".
I agree. We'd want to read all their EV1 patents in any case, just to
learn from them.
(I wouldn't worry about the narrow rear end, as there are plenty of
examples of prior art -- the 1950's Goggomobile for example :-)
> It /might/ be illegal to copy if you are copying an "expression"
> of a patented idea.
Again, I agree. But, I cannot imagine GM could have *any* patent
fundamental enough to serve as a serious roadblock. Cars and EVs have
been around so long that almost *everything* has been done at one time
or another. Prior art provides lots of ways to do everything without
patent infringement.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The best person to ask about used car conversions is Steve Clunn. But I
think
he does it for the love of the cars--not necessarily for profit.
Tim
There's lots of reasons and profit is not on the list , Making money so I
can do more EV's is good , I'm not agents making money , but I'm not
letting it stop me. I'm not thinking of becoming big company ( but if one
started up in driving distance , I'd be there :-) , just a small shop in a
small town , taking care of the EV's in that town.. I think sometimes this
is missed when we are talking about starting a ev companies , if regular
people are going to drive ev's they need a place where they can take it to
have it worked on near where they live . If somebody bought a Tango in fort
pierce Florida , and didn't know anything about EV's , didn't want to , just
wanted to drive it , What would Rick do? I'd like to think he'd call me up
and say , "Steve I have a car in your area would you look in on the owner ,
and see that things are going ok. ".
Things are going pretty good for me right now, I have work I can do in
the yard all the time , but it has been a lot of little steps and if I
hadn't made the little steps I wouldn't be doing anything right now.
, Well, that means that you're either scouring all the auctions to find the
one
or two models of car that you'll convert, or you'll be building custom
battery
boxes and adapter plates for each one you convert .
I am always running into good cars/trucks to convert , for next to nothing ,
. I've had a lot of people tell me I need to speachelize in one or two
models , buy why limit myself like that when there's not that much work , as
for building custom battery boxes and . adapters , that's really not that
hard , doing different cars/trucks is in some ways more fun , as each one is
different .
.
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:27:30 -0400, Ivo Jara <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wouldn't like to crash in my girlfriend's Daewoo racer.
>
> It's true they are cheap, but I would rather have a Soviet Lada than any
> korean car, if they are sold in the states, people are going to start
> diying.
Well, I had a look at a Daewoo Matiz (http://www.mymatiz.com/) and it
didn't strike me as being of low build quality, it's actually quite a
nice little car. I agree that the older models have a poor image and
a very low second hand value though.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I am certainly looking for recommendations about the best vehicles to
> convert.
THere really is no "Best" vehicle to convert, however there are a lot of
/bad/ vehicles.
Bad vehicles include ANYTHING someone gives you for free that is all
dented up and rusty. WHen you get done converting it either you'll end up
with a dented rusty EV or spending thousands fixing the dents and rust.
Start with a vehicle in good overall condition (except perhaps a bad
engine). You aren't going to save money on a $500 donor if you have to
spend $1,000 replacing a broken windshield, torn seats, broken window
cranks, etc.
You also nee to take a look at your needs and requirements. Does you EV
need room for four people? Then a sports car or standard cab pickup isn't
a good choice.
It's a good idea to look for vehicles that have a lot of extra weight
capacity. Pickups are usually good in this area, but SUVs sometimes
aren't.
Smaller is generally better than larger since it means you can get by with
smaller motors/controllers and smaller battery packs, but larger is
certainly an option if that's what you want.
It's also a good idea to start with a car YOU like, otherwise you'll end
up with an EV that you don't particularly like.
After you picked a car you might want to check with one of the EV parts
places and see if there is a motor adapter available for it. If there
isn't a readily available adapter and you really like the car you still
have options though. You can have a custom made adapter (expensive) you
can replace the transmission with a similar unit that does have adapters
available, or you can build your own adapter.
One of the reasons you see a lot of GEOs and S10s is because Solectria was
able to get gliders (new cars with no motors) from Chevy for a while.
Pickups are a good choice if you don't need the extra seating, older
Toyotas are popular as well as S10s.
> So...my questions for those who have done this before, what vehicle,
> motor, etc. are you using?
Bigger vehicles need bigger motor/controllers, so it's best to decide on
the vehicle first...unless you have lots of spare cash, in which case buy
a big motor and a Zilla 2k controller. You'll either have enough for a
large vehicle or a REALLY quick small vehicle.
Other options include the Siemens AC motor/controllers that Victor sells.
A bit more expensive, but it comes with most of the auxiliry bits
(contactors etc.) and does regen, which helps in braking and can extend
your range slightly.
For batteries, you have to decide whether you want economical batteries
that have require regular maintenance (flood Golf Cart batteries) or
expensive sealed batteries that require battery regulartors and smart
chargers, but nearly zero maintenance. Or, again, if you have lots of
money you can go with an advanced battery technology like NiCads, NiMH, or
LiIon.
The reason there are so many different parts available is because there
are so many diffferent options on what you want to finished product to be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did 2 Mitsuushi trucks , both in the album , the older one proformed much
better than the newer one , was lighter, I have said a few time how good
this truck worked out .
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:29 PM
Subject: Got my donor truck!
Well, I got my donor truck, a 86 Mitsubushi, 152K miles, GVWR is 4045,
with front GAWR 1840 and rear GAWR 2470 (totaling 4310, which is more than
the GVWR, go figure). I think the orig curb weight is 2478. So if I figure
that all the ICE parts should be in the neighborhood of 400 lbs, I have
about 2000 lbs that I can add.
The head was cracked so I got it pretty cheap. It'll need a new seat and
new tires but that is about all. The body is in good condition, no rust
thanks to the AZ sun, I'll probably paint it cause the existing tan color
is pretty faded in places.
I've already taken off the bed and gas tank. I was looking at the space
and thought that maybe behind the cab I could put my batteries, maybe
stack them 2 high. I thought about putting the motor behind the axle,
rotating the axle 90 deg. I'd have all the electronics up front and maybe
some batteries. I'd also make a new bed/rear that is aerodynamic,
basically do away with the bed of the truck. We'll see.
Then I saw the pictures that Don Buckshot has on his webstite where the
S10 motor is in back, the same place I was thinking of putting mine.
Anyway, I'm still in the taking it apart stage, prepping the truck. I
still don't know what the components are going to be... Both the AC and DC
systems are good choices, although the AC system seems more expensive.
Maybe I will do a DC to get to know the system. I will probably do a lead
acid battery pack. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Re the Sunrise as replacement thread - I am willing to put down $1000 if a
group gets together to produce a prototype and gets a parts list
genereated. Also it seems that all these emails back and forth make are
pretty confusing, the choices are so varied, and there is no consensous
about what can be done, should be done or how it is to be accomplished.
So, as per Lee Hart's suggestion, I'd be willing to meet somewhere and
start to actually hash out a program. As you know I'm really a newbie to
EV, but I do think it is very viable and will become, some day, a money
making enterprise.
Also I found this link about the process behind the chassis of the Sunrise
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues/september99/departments/tech_focus/techfocus2.html,
it now takes them 6 minutes to make one.
Rush
Tucson AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All and to new member Mark Ward,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > I am certainly looking for recommendations about the best vehicles to
> > convert.
>
> THere really is no "Best" vehicle to convert, however there are a lot of
> /bad/ vehicles.
>
> Bad vehicles include ANYTHING someone gives you for free that is all
> dented up and rusty. WHen you get done converting it either you'll end up
> with a dented rusty EV or spending thousands fixing the dents and rust.
>
> Start with a vehicle in good overall condition (except perhaps a bad
> engine). You aren't going to save money on a $500 donor if you have to
> spend $1,000 replacing a broken windshield, torn seats, broken window
> cranks, etc. (snip)
>
As usual, a great post from Peter!
By all means, pick a donor vehicle that 'you' like, and, pick one in nice
condition that
you would be proud to drive.
I'd add, pick a good motor controller and avoid the Curtis brand models 1221C
and 1231C.
These controllers are behind the curve compared to other options, and in
particular,
generate a squeal through the EV drive motor at lower throttle positions,
making your
otherwise silent and pleasant EV an irritating annoyance for others. Curtis
makes many
good controllers for lower voltage applications that are silent and reliable,
and, used to
make road going EV controllers like the 1221B that did not have the squeal
thing going on.
You can get a terrific Zilla Z1K controller for a few hundred dollars over the
price of a
Curtis squealer, that is silent in operation while giving twice the power
delivery.
Another great controller 'was' the air cooled DCP brand Raptor model
controller, available
in 600 or 1200 amp models. You'd have to find one of these used, as they are no
longer in
production.
The ADC 9 inch motor is a good choice, as is the NetGain 9 inch motor. This
size DC motor
when used with a Z1K Zilla controller will give huge torque and strong hp for
any EV
conversion. A smaller and lighter 8 inch motor can also work very well, but
only in mid to
small size conversions that don't weigh too much. The weight savings by going
from a 9 to
an 8, can be used for another traction battery.
This list is a great resource, so take in all there is here to get up to speed.
The EV
Photo Album will show you what's come before you and can give you great
examples of
working EVs.
Welcome!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark, welcome to the group and I hope you enjoy your conversion. We
just went through the same thing a number of months back. Here is how we
approached it:
1. we documented our basic needs (see
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_Requirements.html )
2. then, from this we selected a vehicle ( see
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_SelectingADonorVehicle.html )
3. then we wrote down a wish list of minor items (see
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_SupplementaryRequirements.html )
4. Then we determine how much power and energy we need. (see
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_EstimatingPowerNeeds.html )
5. Finally we selected a drive system. (see
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_SelectingADrive.html )
(NOTE: we opted to go for an AC drive system, see
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_DriveType.html for an explanation )
We did a **lot** of analysis before selecting a vehicle, however you may
choose not to do as much, but it is all there if you want to.
Good luck
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: March 22, 2005 9:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New To Group
Greetings All,
I am in MO and am new to the group. I am committed to converting a vehicle
to EV and only drive 20 miles total per day on average (work 3 miles away).
It sounds perfect for me. I have a pretty well equipped garage and have a
lot of support where I work. I have an engineering background and a wide
variety of mechanical skills so it sounds feasable.
I am certainly looking for recommendations about the best vehicles to
convert. I have looked at some websites but it seems a lot of the older
cars like VW rabbits, etc. are not very available any longer. The GEO seems
to be a popular vehicle as does the S10 pickup.
So...my questions for those who have done this before, what vehicle, motor,
etc. are you using?
I have decided the Advanced Electric DC 203-06-4001 seems to be a popular
choice hp and adapter availablity wise.
Input? Suggestions?
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
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I've seen some hyundais, and their owners don't complain, in fact they
praise them, so....
why not ?
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Tim Clevenger
Enviado el: martes, 22 de marzo de 2005 19:11
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: American business model
> > From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: American business model
> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:24:04 -0500
>
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:22:21 -0800 (PST), Tim Clevenger
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Seems to me like the way to start out with two strikes against you (EV
> being one) is to start out with a third world brand. Regardless of
> how good they are (I've been impressed with the Hyundai one of my
> employees has) the public perception is not good.
>
> Seems to me the way to go is to select a brand name car destined to
> have a long production run, say, a Honda or Saturn, then negotiate a
> fleet deal. Buy the complete cars, then part out the conventional
> engine parts and sell them. Given the price of replacement parts,
> particularly OEM parts, I just bet this would be the cheaper way.
I only mention Hyundai because they have cleaned up their act quite a
bit, and are generally getting good press in the auto magazines.
As I've mentioned before, as an '04 Ion owner, I would agree that the
Saturn would make a good glider. The dash is pretty chintzy looking,
but it already has lots of room, electric steering and is light weight
and cheap. The engines are used in a couple of other GM models, so
it's not a "resale dud" like a Hyundai or Kia motor. The transmission is
fully synchronized in all gears and reverse. In that case, however, you
might have to fly under GM's radar and make a deal with a fleet dealer
directly.
Tim
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--- Begin Message ---
As I understand it you can produce a patented invention, as long as you pay
the owner of the patent.
Maybe I'm wrong, but if i want to make (let's say) a light bulb, I will have
to pay money to the edison famili, but I could make them without their
written consent.
Am I right ??????
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Lee Hart
Enviado el: martes, 22 de marzo de 2005 18:29
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: Intellectual property
Steve Gaarder wrote:
>
> All this discussion of the rights to the EV-1 design leaves me with a
> question. As I understand it, there are two ways to protect intellectual
> property: patent and copyright. Patents protect an idea regarless of
> expression, i.e. if you patent a particular aspect of an inverter design,
> no-one can sell an inverter incorporating that design trick without your
> OK. A copyright, OTOH, protects the *expression* of an idea, such as the
> text of a book on how to design inverters. So where do the "rights to a
> design" fit in? If GM has some patents on various aspects of the EV-1,
> then we need their consent to sell any EV that uses these bits of
> technology. I'm sure all the design drawings etc are copyrighted, so we
> would need their OK to get copies of those. But otherwise I see nothing
> in either patent or copyright law that makes it illegal to look at a
> product, figure out how it's made, and make one like it. Or am I missing
> something?
I think you have it exactly. I know there are lots of GM patents
involving the EV1, but I don't know of any of them that actually matter
to anyone building a "clone" of it.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Sorry, but all the info i had was from their website, and they did brag
about "the latest technology", but as i am no genius in these matters, did
not see the special in it, in fact the motor looked just the same, and the
figures also were not that impressive for that power to weight ratio.
Well, when one is wrong, one just has to bow in meek respect of those more
knowledgeable. ;)
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Lee Hart
Enviado el: martes, 22 de marzo de 2005 21:33
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1--let's go to the
next step
Ivo Jara wrote:
> You're right, but don't forget there is nothing impressive in the
> tango, execpt the battery / body weight ratio, it may work, but
> it's not a practical vehicle, it just seats two and in tandem,
> and the motor/batteries/controller are nothing special, just a
> very small car on top of what anybody would use for a conversion.
I respectfully disagree. The Tango was designed from the ground up to be
an electric car. Thus, it has much higher performance than an equivalent
ICE conversion would have.
I've driven the Tango, and it does seem to work. The motors, batteries,
and controller *are* pretty special. It is probably the highest-powered
EV on the road today, and is optimized for maximum cost-is-no-object
accelleration.
A two-seater is an improvement over one-seaters like the Sparrow.
Basically, the Tango is a flashy high-performance sports car. All
automakers have flashy sports car models. It happens to be the first
model Commutercars is building, but they have plans for others.
They are calling their planned 2-seat economy version the "Foxtrot".
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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It would be nice if engineers got royalties like writers/actors do.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: Selectria Sunrise as replacement for EV-1 and Re: Rabbit
replacement
> Doug Weathers wrote:
> >>> IANAL, but both of these proposals sound like theft of intellectual
> >>> property.
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> But engineers and scientists would call it business as usual. :-)
>
> > Probably not if those engineers and scientists work for a
> > (for-profit) business. Or more specifically, if the products
> > they are copying belong to a competing business. We can't go
> > around making exact copies of someone else's product and
> > trying to sell the copies.
>
> Look at the market. It's done *all* the time. All companies watch their
> competitors closely. When a competitor has a successful product, you get
> one and reverse engineer it, and copy it. It is standard practice.
> Virtually no one is ever prosecuted.
>
> You are correct that competitors rarely make an *exact* copy. That would
> indeed be an open-and-shut case of theft. But the nature of engineering
> is such that it is never best to make an exact copy. No design is
> perfect; it always has mistakes, omissions, and compromises. New parts
> and technologies have been developed since the original was made; might
> as well use them. So, the "copy" is always a little bit better than the
> original. It's called progress.
>
> What do you think the term "PC clone" means? IBM's competitors literally
> reverse-engineered the PC, then built their own. But the copycats all
> added their own little twists and improvements to the design. The clones
> were functionally the same, but not enough different so IBM couldn't
> sue.
>
> > The point is that the design of the EV1 belongs to GM, and if we
> > copy it by taking a mold of the body or duplicating its circuits
> > or copying the code out of the ROMs on the computers, then we are
> > stealing GM's intellectual property.
>
> Kit car companies pull molds off car bodies all the time. Car bodies
> aren't patented or trademarked.
>
> As for the circuits, I *have* an EV1 inverter, and can assure you that
> no engineer in their right mind would literally copy it. It is a
> 10-year-old design. Technology has moved far ahead since then.
>
> > Learning from others is good, but stealing from others is bad.
>
> "Stealing" means taking something away from others. "Learning" is using
> the knowledge and experience of others, in a way that help you but
> doesn't hurt them.
>
> We aren't hurting GM if we build an EV1, as they have loudly proclaimed
> that they have no interest in ever producing it.
>
> I don't know about Solectria and the Sunrise; they may still entertain
> some hope of producing it. So the obvious route is to offer to buy their
> expertise. They might say "yes"! They used to want millions for the
> design; but today it is obviously worth much less.
>
> > That doesn't give you the right to steal the TV out of my house,
> > or even out of my garbage can.
>
> Your TV analogy is a good one. Of course I can't steal it from your
> house, but once you sell it, or even give it away to the trashman, you
> no longer have any say in what happens to it. I can get it from the
> trashman for 1 cent, fix it, and use it all I like.
>
> > the evidence suggests that GM doesn't want any EV1s on the road...
> > That probably means suing the pants off of anyone who tries to
> > resurrect it without their permission.
>
> They can try. Luckily, they have no legal basis to proceed.
>
> > The point is, THEY own the designs, WE do not. We will be STEALING
> > if we copy their designs without permission, or without making
> > enough changes...
>
> I agree. But, it is *inevitable* that we would make so many changes that
> no jury could be convinced it is the same car. Yes; it looks the same
> and does the same job. But not one single part is likely to be the same
> one GM used.
>
> > Taking a mold of a car and selling exact duplicates is not going
> > to get past a jury.
>
> Sure it does. Look at the thriving kit car industry. Many of them are
> knock-offs of real cars. Look at the huge market in aftermarket repair
> parts; steel fenders that are exactly the same as the factory original.
> The auto companies would like to shut these guys down, but can't!
>
> > If there's a reasonable chance that someone could
> > mistake our copy for the original, we're infringing.
>
> No; that's not how the law works.
> --
> Ring the bells that you can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in
> -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
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that's what I meant, they still run after 20 years, (can't say that even
about japanese cars).
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Victor Tikhonov
Enviado el: martes, 22 de marzo de 2005 16:48
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: American business model
Ivo Jara wrote:
> They run in china, there was an experience here with soviert lada, ugly,
> unconfotable, outdated, but reliable, still running after 20 years.
I suppose you know that those first ugly uncomfortable soviet ladas
were copies of 1962 Fiats designed by ItalDesign - top style design
firm all lamborghini's and such come from.
Having owned one it is far more comfortable than today's Escort or
similar.
Of course boxy as everything in 60's (BMWs, Volvos, etc) and ugly only
by today's half-a century standards, but what else do you expect?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
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From: "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
As I understand it you can produce a patented invention, as long as you pay
the owner of the patent.
Maybe I'm wrong, but if i want to make (let's say) a light bulb, I will
have
to pay money to the edison famili, but I could make them without their
written consent.
Am I right ??????
No. To be legal, at least, you need to license the invention. The owner
of the patent can either agree or not agree to sell you the rights (license)
to use the invention. ( Or, grant you a license for some other
condsideration).
You can't even legally use the invention for your own personal use. The
chances of being prosecuted for that are very slim, though.
Phil Marino
22 patents ( so far)
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--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the group!
My thing happens to be '92-95 Civics. High GVWR,
cute, airbag & safe roll cage, and they lend
themselves to going to electric rather nicely for a
few reasons; low cost donor vehicles/age being one of
them.
If you choose this model, I have an online journal
which would save you many hours of brainstorming
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html and click
the link at the bottom.
I can also provide a video for $12 incl. S&H that
would be well worth it.
Best of luck with your project!
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Since I have already received more than one inquiry I thought it would be
appropriate to respond to the list.
The price for the truck is $12,300.
The batteries are 4 year old 80 Ah (73.6 Ah @ 20 hr rate) Gel-Tech 8G24
sealed gel type. I think they were mfg by Federal. One was replaced by
previous owner with another brand as you can see in one of the photos on the
web site.
I don't really use the truck all that often, and my daily use is limited to
about 20 miles or and often less.
Truck and I are in Kansas City, Missouri.
Don Buckshot
913-789-0889
-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; EV list
Subject: Re: [force_ev] E-10 pick up for sale.
$$$?
Don Buckshot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:The time has come for us to sell
one of our Solectria vehicles and my wife
will not let go of the Force she drives to work every day.
So I am going to put my truck on the EV Tradin' Post and if it doesn't sell
right away I'll have to resort to Ebay.
I've put a bunch of pics on my web site and the truck will soon be on the EV
photo album.
Anyone who is interested can see it at www.buckshot.com/ev
<http://www.buckshot.com/ev> or later on the EV photo album -
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum
Don Buckshot
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
913-789-0889
--- End Message ---
