EV Digest 4245
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by russco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Best of the BEVs (was TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE)
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Batteries, cheap-charger
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter.
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter.
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BAY AREA EV SPECIALIST
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Batteries, cheap-charger
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Batteries, cheap-charger
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Clutchless
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Best of the BEVs (was TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Tango mentioned in Kit Car Magazine
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Best of the BEVs (was TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter.
by Dave Narby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Fast charge Li-ion
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: News Flash! GM To Build Hydrogen Cars!
by Dave Narby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:02:08 -0500
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Charger Shock - ground the car body??
>
> EARTHING: Again, according to what I've read, the primary reason that the
> power system is earthed (I use the UK / CA term in the hopes that it will
> help reduce confusion) is to help protect the power grid and house from
> lightning strikes and induced voltage therefrom.
>
> The fact that the entire power grid is earthed makes it possible for leakage
> current to pass through a person's body. Other than lightning, I don't
> really understand why the decision was made early in the game to earth part
> of the power grid. It seems to me that a system fully isolated from earth,
> with a means of discharging lighting induced surges (as with an antenna
> lightning arrestor) would have been better. But what do I know? In any
> case, that wasn't done in the design of the US power grid. In fact I've
> read that there are areas where not only is the system earthed, the earth is
> actually used as a return conductor!
As I understand it, from reading books based around our wiring regulations
("code"), it is very difficult to make a distribution system that is
isolated from earth since there will always be stray (capacitive) paths, so
best to earth it.
It may be of interest to know that the only place you will generally find an
isolated supply in a UK home is in a bathroom where the only outlets allowed
are 2-pin for electric shavers, usually accepting any European, North
American or Australian plug, which are supplied by an integral 1:1 isolating
transformer so there is reduced shock risk if you touch an earthed water
pipe, tap (faucet), bath, etc. since the supply is then separated.
Supply types vary, TT - relies on an earth stake at the premises, TN-S where
a separate earth conductor runs from the nearest transformer to your place,
TN-C where a combined earth and neutral conductor is used to the main supply
fuse panel which is usually then separated into neutral and earth to run
around the building (then called TN-C-S) and IT where the transformer isn't
earthed but has a deliberate impedance inserted between it and earth (this
isn't permitted for public supplies in the UK)
Of course, a decent charging installation should use a pilot circuit (e.g.
Avcon type connector) to verify that the vehicle body is earthed AND that
the supply earth provides a low impedance path AND be protected by a RCD
(GFI)
Matt
UK
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
It is easy to find a GFCI for the RUSSCO charger since the only power source
is 15 to 20 amps at 60 Hz 110-130 VAC. It becomes much harder when the
source voltage can vary from 100 VAC at 50 Hz in Japan to 240 VAC 60 Hz in
the USA.
Where did you find a 30 amp 120 VAC GFCI used on the SC 30-120
(http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml)?
The RUSSCO SC30-120 draws 24 amps at 120 VAC. The RUSSCO SC50-240 draws
22 amps at 240 VAC. Both chargers use a spa or swimming pool GFCI rated
at 240 VAC and up to 50 amps. It is a Leviton Model 6895. It uses an
external relay and senses through all AC lines, except ground, through a
integral CT.
RUSSCO would never manufacture a non isolated charger without a built in
GFCI. And the GFCI described above will work on 120 or 240 VAC up to 50
amps. So, Joe, there's no reason not to use a GFCI.
Rich makes sure every customer is aware of the isolation issues before the
sale is made. Rich leaves it up to the customer to supply an "appropriate"
GFCI or Isolation Transformer upstream of the charger to meet the safety
requirements at the site where the charger is being used.
Once the charger leaves the factory, the factory has absolutely no idea
if the customer is using the charger correctly. As discovered,
customers may not ground the chassis of the car and may not use a GFCI
at all. That's why it's important for the manufacturer to build the
most idiot proof product.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The other PFC charger with GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As part of the recent EV Discussion List topic talking about why there were not
as many Battery EVs in the Tour de Sol as in the good old days, Bob Rice
suggested that maybe the Electric Auto Association (EAA) could run a new Tour
de Volts, or the like. (and I would do the Reports.)
Of course it has been a great frustration for those who organize the Tour de
Sol that the numbers of Solar EVs and Battery EVs entered have dropped over the
years but, despite many efforts to change that, it had.
So let me propose a way for the EAA, other Discussion List folks and NEDRA
(National Electric Drag Racing Association) to help the Tour de Sol and serve
their own memberships!
Best of the BEVs
I note that the EAA has 31 chapters in the US and Canada. What if those
chapters sponsored the vehicle voted as that chapter's best to the TdS in
2006? All the EAA entrants would fly a common banner, compete for EAA and TdS
bragging rights and show their stuff to a national audience. They could
distribute the Current EVents magazine, sell EAA stuff and provide expert
commentary and advice to the public.
Chapters far from the east coast might be able to share a car carrier and other
support logistics to ease the costs of participating.
By starting to plan for a Battle of the BEVs now the work gets spread out over
the coming year and the likelihood of a bevy of BEVs next May is greater.
Member of the DL that are not able to finance their own, individual
participation might be able to join up with closest EAA chapter to share some
of the logistical aspects, such as sharing a car carrier.
NEDRA "Power of DC" promotion
If NEDRA could pull together a few of their DREVs (Drag Racing EVs) and
bring them to the Tour, they could promote their annual "Power of DC" and
recruit new members. If some of the west coast "name" members could show up,
it would certainly create an additional draw for EVers and drag racing fans.
NEDRA could also organize a side-by-side acceleration competition for the
TdS teams along with a demonstration of their DREVs. Their expertise in
running and announcing such an event would be welcomed and appreciated.
--
Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
www.TourDeSol.org
www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 31 Mar 2005 at 9:40, Mark Hanson wrote:
> Get the
> battery post handle from an auto supply place since they don't have handle
> end clips on them.
Are you talking about the lifters that clip onto the posts? I haven't had very
good luck with those, having turned quite a few golf car batteries into
"weepers" using them. They seem to stress the posts and damage the seal
between post and battery top. The resulting electrolyte leakage makes it
harder to keep the battery tops clean.
Unfortunately I don't have a better solution for batteries that omit lifting
fittings, except buying different batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of the gas scooters ...
My neighbor has decided to purchase one of these things. It's noisy,
slow, and smelly. Seems there are a lot of adults in S. California who
choose to use one of these as their primary transportation.
Short of calling the cops about an unlicensed motor vehicle on city
streets (don't even get me started about these things on the bicycle
trail that has the prominent "NO MOTOR VEHICLES" sign), what steps can
be taken to discourage the use of these awful things?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
A neighbor bought a 22cc Mitsubishi motored gas scooter from Kragen.
He rang my bell asking for some help starting it. Took about 10
minutes of fiddling and flooding it before getting it started. After
starting I suggested he take it to the bottom of our hill and see how
it performed. Came back with a long face. Said he had to push it up
the hill helping it on the steepest part. I was waiting with my son's
Bladez standup much like the gas scooter but of course electric
drive. He took it up the same hill and came back with an ev grin. "I
zipped right up the hill" He said.. My neighbor weighs about 162 and
I am 250. We had a couple of races and off the line I was faster he
did catch up going up a slight hill but I hadn't charged the scooter
for a few days. Going back we were about the same speed. He only has
to do 6 miles to work. I told him an electric might be better. He
certainly was confused but agreed that he had a bunch of 110 plugs at
work and could easily charge there. Kragen has a 60 day take back
policy. I think he should.take it back.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Bladez beats Kragen gas scooter.
>
> Speaking of the gas scooters ...
>
> My neighbor has decided to purchase one of these things. It's noisy,
> slow,
> and smelly. Seems there are a lot of adults in S. California who choose
> to
> use one of these as their primary transportation.
>
> Short of calling the cops about an unlicensed motor vehicle on city
> streets
> (don't even get me started about these things on the bicycle trail that
> has
> the prominent "NO MOTOR VEHICLES" sign), what steps can be taken to
> discourage the use of these awful things?
>
hmmm... a teaspoon of water in the gas tank......
even better, get an electric one and soup it up. Most will soon retire the
smokers for the better performing electric.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might try Todd at thezero.net. I CCed him.
----- Original Message -----
From: "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 8:23 PM
Subject: BAY AREA EV SPECIALIST
Looking for credible & reputable person and/or company in the Bay Area who
specializes in electric vehicles & components, especially motors &
batteries.
Please send contact info.
Thanks!
_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Unfortunately I don't have a better solution for batteries that omit lifting
> fittings, except buying different batteries.
How about one of these?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=286
While I'm on that site, here's a link to what looks like an automatic
battery filler:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47532
The cable lug spreader and lug puller look like they might be useful too:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42704
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.ezred.com/lifters.htm
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
> Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:50 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Batteries, cheap-charger
>
> On 31 Mar 2005 at 9:40, Mark Hanson wrote:
>
>> Get the
>> battery post handle from an auto supply place since they don't have
>> handle end clips on them.
>
> Are you talking about the lifters that clip onto the posts? I haven't had
> very good luck with those, having turned quite a few golf car batteries
> into
> "weepers" using them. They seem to stress the posts and damage the seal
> between post and battery top. The resulting electrolyte leakage makes it
> harder to keep the battery tops clean.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a better solution for batteries that omit
> lifting
> fittings, except buying different batteries.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve,
Thank You for the Info.
Going through the coupler would be best for me, if I do this mod the next time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: STEVE CLUNN<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: Clutchless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <
Hello Steve,
>In making a Lovejoy adapter, how do you support the end of the transmission
>pilot shaft that is normally inserted into a pilot bushing so it does not
>flop around.
So far all the front wheel drive cars I've seen , the transmission shaft
has no flop at all , . On the very last one I did , I did have the pilot
shaft go all the way through and into the motor shaft , The net gain motors
have a hole in the end of the drive shaft for a pilot bushing , I've forgot
the size , but I took it up with a brass bushing , once this is together
these shafts will stay together and not turn inside as the coupler keeps
them together. I remember thinking " this looks like It would line up the
motor and tranny pretty well" but I still clamped the tranny plate and
motor plate together and spun the motor , then taped on one plate to move
things around and listened for the spot where it was the quietest , . The
tranny on the 300zx had a lot of flop , but I made a fly wheel hub for that
one with the pilot bearing in it .
Does the pilot shaft extended all the way thru the Lovejoy to a pilot
bushing that is on the motor shaft?
When my transmission is remove from a motor or engine, my pilot shaft has a
lot of movement when it is not supported.
I would say you have to support the pilot shaft on these type of trannys ,
I'm still trying different thing out , and it seems each time I do something
a little different . I seem to get a new idea after I'm done .
I had this idea last time , since I'm using the motor as the lathe , take a
1/2 piece of aluminum plate , bolt it to a taper lock hub/ (This could be a
gear , ) and cut a fly wheel from it , now you have a round flat plate
centered on the hub , now the hard part , measure ( not one of my strong
points ) how far the presser bolts are apart , spin the motor with hub and
plate and put a grove on the aluminum plat this distance , lay the presser
on the aluminum plate so that this grove goes through all the presser
mounting bolt holes and drill them . I would have to make something to hold
the motor and the cutting bit , The bit holder which you can see ,
http://www.grassrootsev.com/projectresearch.htm<http://www.grassrootsev.com/projectresearch.htm>
comes off my lathe easy .
steve clunn
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: STEVE CLUNN<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Clutchless
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[email protected]>>>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: Clutchless
> ev-america.com will sell you an adapter for this purpose. Also, I think
> grassrootsev.com will also manufacture a Lovejoy coupling for customers
> who
> request it. In both cases, you send them the clutch disk with the
splined
> shaft on it and they integrate it into the adapter/coupling.
>
I've had both good luck and bad with the Lovjoy coupler , My old Ford
ranger
has a Lov joy which has worked well for years , . Here is how it works ,
First you get your Lov joy coupler which is 3 pieces , 2 hubs with "ears"
and one middle rubber/plastic 6 pointed star that fits between the two
hubs
( 3 ears per hub ) . One hub has the 1 1/8 inch hole for the motor shaft ,
the other you take the inside spline for the clutch disk and weld it to
the
back of the other hub. Now when you get the clutch disk hub off the disk
by
grinding off the rivets ect , it will have a lip , you will have to turn
on
a lath ( or use your motor with hub on backwards) the lov joy hub so that
the disk hub will fit inside just right ,this is what centers it , then
you
weld it to the lov joy hub ( big bolt clamping it together). Some small
problems are , your coupler made of 2 hubs end up being very long so you
could need a lot more spacer as your tranny may have to be further away
for
the motor , I didn't have this problem with the ranger. The other problem
is
that you have to have some way to keep the two hubs together , the one on
the motor is boiled , so no problem but the one on the tranny shaft is on
a
spline shaft and if there is room could slide back on the shaft which
would
let the rubber fall out and tear the ears off the lov joy hubs . On the
ranger ( clunn car 3) I put some washers on the tranny shaft so the tranny
hub could only go on so far . Later I did one and used a big ring clip ,
and
put a grove in the two hubs for the ring to sit in , this looked good but
somehow the ring came off and the one hub slid up the tranny shaft , which
was not good . I fixed this one by welding a small stub axel in the end of
the hub , so the lov joy on the tranny shaft could only slide on so far.
This is still working ( clunn car 4 ) . So if a motor fell from the sky ,
you have some contactors / bucket of salt water, old car somebody gave you
,
and a pile of batteries. 7 or 8 hundred dollars for a adaptor plate ? Then
maybe this is a solution , I would do this for the right person under the
right conductions , for $25 , , This is really only for the people who
really have no money and want a ev and are willing to trade many hours of
there time instead of spending the money to get a REALLY GOOD adaptor
plate
made by you know who :-) . I want to see more EV's on the road , not 1/2
done EV's that don't get finished because of problems making the adaptor .
Steve Clunn
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 6:05 PM
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Subject: Clutchless
>
> I like this idea. No clutches and flywheels to wear out, less
expensive,
> and less rotating mass. I still want to use all the gears though. I
> think
> that won't be a problem right? Or will the weight of the spinning motor
> coupled to the transmission accelerate wear on the syncros compared to
if
> it
> only had the clutch disc spinning when shifting? How fast does an
> electric
> motor spin down?
>
> Any off the shelf ways to couple the output shaft of the motor to the
> transmission input shaft? What method is used to couple to the motor
> shaft?
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M Bianchi wrote:
> So let me propose a way for the EAA, other Discussion List folks
> and NEDRA (National Electric Drag Racing Association) to help the
> Tour de Sol and serve their own memberships!
>
> Best of the BEVs
That's a great idea! Is there time to get this organized and make it
happen?
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
299 at Costco. It is a 450w with a seat. Not sure of the range. Same top
speed as the VEGO600sx. 18mph.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The April issue cover looks like this:
http://www.kitcarclub.com/
If you can't get it locally, here's the Tango mention:
http://img178.exs.cx/img178/7841/tango5ud.jpg
Also interestingly enough, there is a 3 page article on batteries in
the same issue...
http://img178.exs.cx/img178/8194/bat19ee.jpg
http://img178.exs.cx/img178/9308/bat23fc.jpg
http://img178.exs.cx/img178/1092/bat38mb.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks! Mike;
Great idea! Now the ball's in OUR court! OK EVers , whereEVer yur hiding,
lets bring them out! Hook up with the Good Folks at TDS and show our colors.
Hit me back! Ideas, sugestions?
Seeya There.
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Bianchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:49 PM
Subject: Best of the BEVs (was TdS Report #3: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE)
> As part of the recent EV Discussion List topic talking about why there
were not
> as many Battery EVs in the Tour de Sol as in the good old days, Bob Rice
> suggested that maybe the Electric Auto Association (EAA) could run a new
Tour
> de Volts, or the like. (and I would do the Reports.)
>
> Of course it has been a great frustration for those who organize the Tour
de
> Sol that the numbers of Solar EVs and Battery EVs entered have dropped
over the
> years but, despite many efforts to change that, it had.
>
> So let me propose a way for the EAA, other Discussion List folks and NEDRA
> (National Electric Drag Racing Association) to help the Tour de Sol and
serve
> their own memberships!
>
>
> Best of the BEVs
>
> I note that the EAA has 31 chapters in the US and Canada. What if those
> chapters sponsored the vehicle voted as that chapter's best to the TdS in
> 2006? All the EAA entrants would fly a common banner, compete for EAA and
TdS
> bragging rights and show their stuff to a national audience. They could
> distribute the Current EVents magazine, sell EAA stuff and provide expert
> commentary and advice to the public.
>
> Chapters far from the east coast might be able to share a car carrier and
other
> support logistics to ease the costs of participating.
>
> By starting to plan for a Battle of the BEVs now the work gets spread out
over
> the coming year and the likelihood of a bevy of BEVs next May is greater.
>
> Member of the DL that are not able to finance their own, individual
> participation might be able to join up with closest EAA chapter to share
some
> of the logistical aspects, such as sharing a car carrier.
>
>
> NEDRA "Power of DC" promotion
>
> If NEDRA could pull together a few of their DREVs (Drag Racing EVs) and
> bring them to the Tour, they could promote their annual "Power of DC" and
> recruit new members. If some of the west coast "name" members could show
up,
> it would certainly create an additional draw for EVers and drag racing
fans.
>
> NEDRA could also organize a side-by-side acceleration competition for the
> TdS teams along with a demonstration of their DREVs. Their expertise in
> running and announcing such an event would be welcomed and appreciated.
>
> --
> Mike Bianchi
> 17th Annual Tour de Sol
> May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
> www.TourDeSol.org
> www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Carry a pair of wire clippers?
JUST KIDDING!
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Speaking of the gas scooters ...
My neighbor has decided to purchase one of these things. It's noisy,
slow, and smelly. Seems there are a lot of adults in S. California who
choose to use one of these as their primary transportation.
Short of calling the cops about an unlicensed motor vehicle on city
streets (don't even get me started about these things on the bicycle
trail that has the prominent "NO MOTOR VEHICLES" sign), what steps can
be taken to discourage the use of these awful things?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
A neighbor bought a 22cc Mitsubishi motored gas scooter from Kragen.
He rang my bell asking for some help starting it. Took about 10
minutes of fiddling and flooding it before getting it started. After
starting I suggested he take it to the bottom of our hill and see how
it performed. Came back with a long face. Said he had to push it up
the hill helping it on the steepest part. I was waiting with my
son's Bladez standup much like the gas scooter but of course electric
drive. He took it up the same hill and came back with an ev grin. "I
zipped right up the hill" He said.. My neighbor weighs about 162 and
I am 250. We had a couple of races and off the line I was faster he
did catch up going up a slight hill but I hadn't charged the scooter
for a few days. Going back we were about the same speed. He only
has to do 6 miles to work. I told him an electric might be better.
He certainly was confused but agreed that he had a bunch of 110 plugs
at work and could easily charge there. Kragen has a 60 day take back
policy. I think he should.take it back.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have looked into making li-ion batteries a little bit and with the new
materials it seems like it wouldn't be that difficult. But I have some
questions about the internal construction and very little info. One
university test cell used the foil screen, pressing the rolled out
electode slurry into the screen, but weather that is done on production
cells or not is a mystery. The other method is just adhered to the alum
or copper plates, the 18650's are that way . There is a new cathode
material that makes a 2.4volt cell that looks to have better cycling
capability. Does anyone know where the heat is generated in the li-ion
cell? at the electrolye cathode interface, at the cathode/collector
interface, etc Knowing this will help determine foil or sreeen.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Another problem is that there are substantial amounts of resistance,
inductance, and capacitance between any two points in a large "grounded"
piece of metal like a car body. Anyone familiar with RF can tell you how
easy it is to have one point on a piece of metal at 0 volts, and another
point *ON THE SAME PIECE OF METAL* at 100s of volts! The classic example
of this is that if you touch two points on even a low-power transmitting
antenna you'll get a shock! The high frequency chargers, motor
controllers, and even brush arcing can create enough RF to give you such
shocks.
True, but this phenomenon you describe has to do with standing
waves short enough to be comparable to a human body size, which
happen at the frequencies of hundreds of MHz.
Anything conductive in a car with current switching technology will
have pretty same potential if the voltage is induced by RF.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kevin,
welcome. I realize that fuel cell bashing is really in
style on this list, and frankly I am not really
interested in having this debate, but I do want to
correct some factual errors in your post(cause there
are those on this list that seem to believe everything
they read) :
> The biggest problem with FCVs is that they use more
> oil producing the hydrogen fuel than they do
> producing gasoline!
Almost all H2 fuel commercially available today comes
from steam reforming natural gas. Hydrocarbons, yes.
Oil, no.
> I saw an article about
> how the latest FCVs derive their hydrogen from
> methanol, which is itself
> derived from petroleum
I don't know what article you read but, with the
exception of a couple early proof of concept cars from
circa 1999, none of the auto companies are working on
or showing methanol fueled fuel cell vehicles. With
only a few exceptions they are all H2 fueled, although
a few different storage methods are being experimented
with.
Methanol storage is being extensively researched for
so called battery replacement fuel cell technologies
for laptops, cellphones etc...
> Pure-hydrogen FCVs require refrigeration of
> the fuel tank to store enough for a usable range.
not really. Liquid hydrogen storage systems acheive
about 1.6 kwhr per liter of storage. The compressed
gas systems are something like 1.3. To date, the
compressed gas systems are much more popular with the
OEMs. Only BMW (that I know of) has built any number
of cars with liquid H2 storage, and those are IC
engine cars.
> FCVs are basically EVs with a hydrogen battery, and
> it's a very
> inefficient process.
this is true. Starting with electricity as your
'baseline', fuel cells have a terrible efficiency
compared to batteries. But noone in their right mind
is considering using fossil fuel elecricity to make H2
on a large scale. As you said, the economics and the
science doesn't make any sense.
> Another note:
> When people talk about EVs shifting the pollution
> from the car to the powerplant and supposedly
> causing more pollution,
> why don't they ever take into consideration the
> pollution and electricity necessary to
> refine oil into gasoline?
they do. any meaningful analysis of lifecycle
pollution from the transportation sector is done on a
well to wheels basis, which includes all the energy
needed to go from some basic feedstock to a car
driving down the road. See for example, DOE's GREET
analysis which is available for download from Argonne
National Labs home page.
> There is no cleaner system
> on the planet-
> especially when the power for the EV is being
> produced by wind or solar
> generators.
true.
> John Westlund wrote:
>
> >I'd like to know as well. What I do know is that
> $2.2
> >million could have made about 50 EV1s in low
> volume, or for
to be fair, I think the 88 Million includes several
years of field service, and lots of 'education' type
stuff for service people and the public. None the
less, 88 M is a hefty chunk of cash.
> >I'm also curious as to how these vehicles will
> perform.
> >Econocrap? Yuck...
I can't speak for the GM vehicle, but the fuel cell
vehicles I have driven have had repectable
performance. They are not race cars but they are
similar in performance to their IC engine cousins.
> >Fuel cells are a leap backwards from batteries due
> to....maintenance of the fuel cell stack,
Out of curiousity, what kind of maintenance do you do
to a fuel cell stack ? (hint, this is a loaded
question).
> longevity(or lack thereof) of the platinum membrane,
this might be nitpicky, but the membrane is not made
of platinum, it is made of a polymer. The small amount
of PT in the stack is a catalyst that is located on
either side of the membrane to help the oxidation and
reduction reactions that take place there.
longevity of a stack ? you are right, it needs some
work. it is certainly already as good as a lead acid
battery in vehicle service, and getting better every
day.
> >power(again, lack thereof). Maybe if they built 600
> >horsepower 230 MPH capable FCVs for $2.2 million
what the hell do you want to do with 600 HP ? get into
orbit ? I think the american obsession with HP and
engine displacement is one of the strangest phenomena
I have ever witnessed.
Anyway, before I get too worked up, let me say that I
too wish some of this federal money were going to BEV
development. I think both FCEVs and BEVs probably have
a place in the transportation paradigm of tomorrow. In
fact, as others have pointed out, other than battery
development (which has been sorely neglected) the DOE
support for FCEVs is funding great progress on
components and drive systems that are equally useable
for Fuel cell and battery electric vehicles. Small
consolation, i know...
But it irks me to see the normally open minded people
on this list ignorantly repeating every 'fact' they
have heard about fuel cells. Let me tell you, it is
exactly the same thing as you guys find infuriating
when talking about BEVs with people who don't know.
There is lots of misinformation out there. Don't
believe everything you see on TV (or read on the
EVDL).
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't understand why anyone on this list would bash fuel cell cars.
With all the experience you've got here, it seems it would be a simple
matter for an EV'er to swap out the fuel cell with a battery pack - or
run both!
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
Kevin,
welcome. I realize that fuel cell bashing is really in
style on this list, and frankly I am not really
interested in having this debate, but I do want to
correct some factual errors in your post(cause there
are those on this list that seem to believe everything
they read) :
The biggest problem with FCVs is that they use more
oil producing the hydrogen fuel than they do
producing gasoline!
Almost all H2 fuel commercially available today comes
from steam reforming natural gas. Hydrocarbons, yes.
Oil, no.
I saw an article about
how the latest FCVs derive their hydrogen from
methanol, which is itself
derived from petroleum
I don't know what article you read but, with the
exception of a couple early proof of concept cars from
circa 1999, none of the auto companies are working on
or showing methanol fueled fuel cell vehicles. With
only a few exceptions they are all H2 fueled, although
a few different storage methods are being experimented
with.
Methanol storage is being extensively researched for
so called battery replacement fuel cell technologies
for laptops, cellphones etc...
Pure-hydrogen FCVs require refrigeration of
the fuel tank to store enough for a usable range.
not really. Liquid hydrogen storage systems acheive
about 1.6 kwhr per liter of storage. The compressed
gas systems are something like 1.3. To date, the
compressed gas systems are much more popular with the
OEMs. Only BMW (that I know of) has built any number
of cars with liquid H2 storage, and those are IC
engine cars.
FCVs are basically EVs with a hydrogen battery, and
it's a very
inefficient process.
this is true. Starting with electricity as your
'baseline', fuel cells have a terrible efficiency
compared to batteries. But noone in their right mind
is considering using fossil fuel elecricity to make H2
on a large scale. As you said, the economics and the
science doesn't make any sense.
Another note:
When people talk about EVs shifting the pollution
from the car to the powerplant and supposedly
causing more pollution,
why don't they ever take into consideration the
pollution and electricity necessary to
refine oil into gasoline?
they do. any meaningful analysis of lifecycle
pollution from the transportation sector is done on a
well to wheels basis, which includes all the energy
needed to go from some basic feedstock to a car
driving down the road. See for example, DOE's GREET
analysis which is available for download from Argonne
National Labs home page.
There is no cleaner system
on the planet-
especially when the power for the EV is being
produced by wind or solar
generators.
true.
John Westlund wrote:
I'd like to know as well. What I do know is that
$2.2
million could have made about 50 EV1s in low
volume, or for
to be fair, I think the 88 Million includes several
years of field service, and lots of 'education' type
stuff for service people and the public. None the
less, 88 M is a hefty chunk of cash.
I'm also curious as to how these vehicles will
perform.
Econocrap? Yuck...
I can't speak for the GM vehicle, but the fuel cell
vehicles I have driven have had repectable
performance. They are not race cars but they are
similar in performance to their IC engine cousins.
Fuel cells are a leap backwards from batteries due
to....maintenance of the fuel cell stack,
Out of curiousity, what kind of maintenance do you do
to a fuel cell stack ? (hint, this is a loaded
question).
longevity(or lack thereof) of the platinum membrane,
this might be nitpicky, but the membrane is not made
of platinum, it is made of a polymer. The small amount
of PT in the stack is a catalyst that is located on
either side of the membrane to help the oxidation and
reduction reactions that take place there.
longevity of a stack ? you are right, it needs some
work. it is certainly already as good as a lead acid
battery in vehicle service, and getting better every
day.
power(again, lack thereof). Maybe if they built 600
horsepower 230 MPH capable FCVs for $2.2 million
what the hell do you want to do with 600 HP ? get into
orbit ? I think the american obsession with HP and
engine displacement is one of the strangest phenomena
I have ever witnessed.
Anyway, before I get too worked up, let me say that I
too wish some of this federal money were going to BEV
development. I think both FCEVs and BEVs probably have
a place in the transportation paradigm of tomorrow. In
fact, as others have pointed out, other than battery
development (which has been sorely neglected) the DOE
support for FCEVs is funding great progress on
components and drive systems that are equally useable
for Fuel cell and battery electric vehicles. Small
consolation, i know...
But it irks me to see the normally open minded people
on this list ignorantly repeating every 'fact' they
have heard about fuel cells. Let me tell you, it is
exactly the same thing as you guys find infuriating
when talking about BEVs with people who don't know.
There is lots of misinformation out there. Don't
believe everything you see on TV (or read on the
EVDL).
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Seeley wrote:
> I was perusing the local Sam's Club today, and they have a rack of
> Batteries. Would any of these be acceptable for a starter EV or
> should I definitely look elsewhere.
>
> StowAway Golf Cart Battery
> 6V Group Size GC2 $46.63 each
> 110 min @75 amps
These are fine for EVs. A bit lower quality than Trojan or US Battery.
> StowAway
> ST31DC /600 CCA
Ignore the ones with CCA (Cold Cranking Amp) ratings. They are "marine"
or dual-purpose batteries, a compromise between true deep-cycle and true
starting batteries. They will provide poor life in an EV (less than half
that of the golf cart battery). Some people use them anyway as "training
wheels" as you need half as many of them.
> Heavy Duty Size 4DLT
> 250 RC 79.77 each(? What is RC)
These are just starting batteries. An EV would murder them in a couple
months.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Another problem is that there are substantial amounts of resistance,
> > inductance, and capacitance between any two points in a large "grounded"
> > piece of metal like a car body. Anyone familiar with RF can tell you how
> > easy it is to have one point on a piece of metal at 0 volts, and another
> > point *ON THE SAME PIECE OF METAL* at 100s of volts! The classic example
> > of this is that if you touch two points on even a low-power transmitting
> > antenna you'll get a shock! The high frequency chargers, motor
> > controllers, and even brush arcing can create enough RF to give you such
> > shocks.
>
> True, but this phenomenon you describe has to do with standing
> waves short enough to be comparable to a human body size, which
> happen at the frequencies of hundreds of MHz.
>
> Anything conductive in a car with current switching technology will
> have pretty same potential if the voltage is induced by RF.
In my early years, I was a ham radio operator. I've had mobile antennas
on my cars, and believe you me, you can get *nasty* RF shocks even at
3.5 MHz (the lowest frequency I used). The higher the frequency, the
worse it gets!
Consider the CB band (27 MHz). The wavelength is 11 meters. The distance
between a peak and a null in that waveform is 1/4 wave or 2.75 meters =
9 feet. Just about *all* cars are longer than this. So, at the instant
when the voltge at one point on the body is 0v, a spot 9 feet away is at
its *peak* voltage.
The sharp-edged switching waveforms used in EV chargers and controllers
easily have frequency components in this range.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
