EV Digest 4455
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Contactor Voltage Ratings
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: My Blog is now up! Take a look!
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Gp Lives
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Gp Lives at Greenwood
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Welding on the cheap, part 3, High Frequency
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: NiCD charging thoughts...
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wavecrest electric bike, a superficial review
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Molding Composities (was Re: Honeycomb Aluminum Composites)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "New" wire loom?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Need Charger Recommendation
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Molding Composities (was Re: Honeycomb Aluminum Composites)
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) D.C. Motor tear down proceedure (Long)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) DC/DC vs batt/charger, Re: My Blog is now up! Take a look!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Motor repair
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: worn shafts journals, an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: D.C. Motor tear down proceedure (Long)
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor repair
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: My Blog is now up! Take a look!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Contactor Voltage Ratings
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: My Blog is now up! Take a look!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: worn shafts journals, an' Stuff.
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What's the story with the voltage ratings on contactors? For example, a
SW200 is rated at a recommended 96V, yet people seem to use them for higher
voltage packs all the time. Have EVers come up with some rule of thumb over
the years? Or do we just use the Andersons with the 96V rating because
that's the best that's available?
Also, would putting a contactor mid-pack make it need a smaller voltage
rating?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, were those just standard auto relays that you'd buy at an auto part
store, or did you opt for higher quality relays?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 9:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My Blog is now up! Take a look!
Philip Marino wrote:
> It sounds like you are using the 13.8 volt supply as a charger for
> the two marine batteries (charging from the grid) and not as a DC-DC
> operating from the main battery pack. Is that right?
>
> If so, no matter how many (or how big) your 12V batteries are, your
> headlights will be dim and your wipers, heater blower, etc., slow.
> The "12V" components in your car are designed to run at about 14V.
> (or maybe 13.5 or so with wiring voltage drop).
Very true for a normal car. When the ICE is running, the alternator
typically delivers 13.8v. But the cheap switches, low-grade connectors,
and undersized wiring have about 1 volt of drop. So, the lights, motors,
etc. are designed for a nominal 12.8 volts, because this is the voltage
that actually gets it to them.
If your EV has no DC/DC converter and you run everything directly from a
12v battery, then all the lights and motors will actually get more like
11 volts. Lights are dimmer, and motors run slower.
The obvious answer is a DC/DC converter set to match the alternator
voltage.
But another answer is to beef up the 12v wiring to get rid of the 1 volt
drops. In practice, you only need to do this for a few key loads, like
headlights and windshield wipers. You aren't likely to notice the
difference for other loads.
I had this setup on my ComutaVan. I added relays to control the wipers,
headlights, and contactors. The existing wiring drove the coils of these
relays. The contacts switched the actual load devices, and were wired
with new short heavy wiring that had less than 0.1v drop.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok Thanks for the lead.
John Wayland ins in bend a couple times a week... so hauling a tranny back
is about as easy as hauling a large fork truck motor home.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Gp Lives
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Nice idea.
> > Need a G60 Carrado VW tranny.
>
> I have one. Unfortunately (for you) it is 3000 miles
> away and in my daily driver.
>
> > I really need to get the tranny number off the case,
> > and talk to Robert
> > Salem as to what he would recomend we do to the
> > inside parts.
>
> you should consider calling Bahnbrenner Motor sports
> in Bend, OR (www.bahnbrenner.com). Those guys are tops
> when it comes to performance VW/Audi and they have
> lots of knowledge about Corrado transmissions
> specifically. They may also have leads on local
> sources for stock trannies. (well, from 3k miles away,
> OR and WA are local).
>
> good luck
> ~fortunat
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They run off the 12 volt assory battery.
We have some room.
We most likely won't have to charge on site.
But I sent Gp back this afternoon with a water cooled PFC40L loaded and
ready to run.
Unfortunatley... I ran most of the anitfreeze off the top of the battery
case, God what a mess.
I swear Glycol can run up hill if it wants to .
The charger will run almost 15 minutes with no cooling water flow at all.
Running the pump for 1 minute out of 15 is a easy way to not kill the pump,
or the little hawker house battery.
It's done so the Boys have a on board charger and I have a green box
installed in Gp.
Sales efforts are atleast functional.
I did NOT get die cut Manzanita Micro stickers made.... that's gonna have to
wait.
See some of ya at the show.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: Gp Lives at Greenwood
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > the pumps need to be on to cool the charger.
>
> How about have the pump(s) run off the incoming AC? Or do they?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:35 PM 24/06/05 -0400, BoyntonStu wrote:
Not having used one, how much better is stick welding with an hf?
At lower currents much better, for those less experienced. Instead of
'zztt, [wiggle electrode holder] scratch scratch zzt [wiggle electrode
holder] scratch zzZZZ crackle [and now your arc settles down]'. you turn on
the HF and get a continuous zizzle from the unit, bring the electrode to
the job and get loud sizzle and jumping arc from the end of the electrode
to the job, close in the electrode gap and get on with the weld.
Is it 'ON' all the time?
Most manufactured seperate HF units are on all the time, machines with HF
in them control the arc depending on what you are doing.
Will it help both AC as well as DC?
Gets DC started (stick or TIG) but no help once going. Gets AC going and
helps keep it going, not so needed for stick as the electrode, weld pool
and flux keeps the conditions 'there' for the arc. AC TIG really needs it
to keep it going, paricularly at lower currents.
I'd like to hear about the 'feel' of it.
Any experienced welders out there care to comment?
Price?
Depends on supply and demand at the time in your area.
And Stu, thanks for cutting back on the number of blank lines in your
messages, much more readable now.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's data i have for mine aircraft type Saft sintered nicad cells, yours can
be different...
lets wait and be logic, we know they are different on the electrolyte
reserve (30cm3) the gassing phase is that consume water so less water
reserve should significate you must use less gassing voltage to obtain low
water consumption...
you can make a cell charge/discharge/capacity test with voltage logging and
see what your cell like better.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: NiCD charging thoughts...
> Yes, the Marathon docs call for the 1.65V, so perhaps they are different
> from your cells.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 7:24 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: NiCD charging thoughts...
>
> Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > 1,5V is not enough on this cells !!!
>
> Are you sure about that? The docs say the commissioning charge should be
> around 1.45 volts at normal temps, and less for normal charging.
>
> Maybe the marathons are different?
>
> Chris
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 24, 2005, at 6:18 AM, Rod Hower wrote:
The "Tidalforce M-750X Electric bike 25 MPH "
listed on Ebay, item #7164701699 has lithium batteries
mounted in the front wheel.
All the docs on the web site say it's a 36v NiMH pack, not lithium.
Web site is here:
http://www.tidalforce.com/index.html
A coworker just bought one of these - he says it's his very favorite
toy of all time. I got a chance to ride it in the parking lot. Very
smooth and absolutely silent, and a pretty decent kick when you push
the thumb throttle. Left and right twist grips shift the front and
rear derailleurs for pedal power. The high-power 1Kw M-750X model is
not street legal.
It's quite a heavy vehicle - it feels like it will last for ever. It's
got a huge amount of suspension travel on the front fork - you can see
it in the eBay picture. He says it's a great off-road bike.
It's got a cruise control, and regen. It can accept an optional second
battery pack, which apparently goes over the rear wheel. I couldn't
find any other info about it, though. The handlebar computer has
displays for both battery packs showing how much energy is left in each
one. I guess a fleet operator would probably get a number of the
add-on packs and keep them charging for swapping during the day.
The (PDF) manuals are online here (including the battery care
instructions):
http://www.tidalforce.com/service/docs.html
At first I thought it was a dumb idea to put the batteries in the front
wheel, but upon reflection I believe it makes a lot of sense. My
friend leaves the bike locked up downstairs and brings the front wheel
and charger up to his office to charge it during the day. Putting the
components into the wheels allows you enormous latitude in the design
of your vehicle. You could conceivably own a couple of wheels and swap
them for a quick charge, but there's a secondary battery pack available
that's likely more cost-effective.
It's probably best to think of this as more of a light motorcycle than
a bicycle. It's not going to handle like a racing bike.
Here's the official specifications web page. Oddly (or perhaps not),
it doesn't list the weight of the thing.
http://www.tidalforce.com/products/m750x/specs.html
Does anybody have pictures or a description of how
they are making electrical contact?
A few minutes with Google yielded this page, which is a reseller of the
DIY kits (buy the components, build your own vehicle). Lots of details
that folks have been asking about.
http://www.electricrider.com/wavecrest/diy.htm
Here's a great series of pictures from the factory, showing among other
things an exploded view of the motor and the insides of the battery
pack.
http://www.electricrider.com/wavecrest/tidalforcetour.htm
I assume they are using something similar to a
commutator, but that seems kind of inefficient
compared to just attaching them to the frame.
Nope, the wheel revolves around the batteries, which are fixed to the
front fork. The motor works in a similar fashion.
If anyone has specific questions, I'll see if I can get my friend to
answer them.
Rod
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Often there is a ply of glass
> on the outside too - graphite fiber is strong but seriously lacks
> puncture resistance (you can easily put a screwdriver all the way
> through unless a few layers of glass are involved - or Kevlar.)
Ok, let's say that I want to build multiple copies of the same body that
is composed of a semi-complex three dimensional shape. Assume that I've
built a nice plug and then a mold from that.
The finished product needs to be fairly strong,
Puncture resistant and Abrasion resistant would be nice.
Lightweight is desirable, but not a major criteria.
And, preferably, capable of being built in a garage.
What kind of layup would you recommend?
I'm thinking of using kevlar on at least the outside layer, but I'm not
sure if using kevlar on the inside layers is worth the extra cost over
using glass.
With a vacumm molded layup, is there a significant weight advantage of
using a laminated foam core instead of extra layers of glass? THe body
doesn't have to be super strong, just strong enough to hold it's shape in
40-50 mph wind speed.
Since I'm probably going to go with vacumm molding, I'll most likely end
up with two or more pieces that have to be joined. What's the best way to
do this? Feather the edges down at the seams and then build them up when
joining, or full thickness at the edges and end up with double thickness
at the seams? Some other method?
Ideally, I'll take some classes before I get started, but I need a
starting point to know what kind of classes/mentor to look for.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 24, 2005, at 9:05 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Seems like I've seen this stuff before, or something similar, but I
can't remember where..
http://painlesswiring.squarespace.com/
Anyone seen something just like it somewhere before?
Yup, Waytek sent me a sample of it some months ago. It's pretty nifty
stuff. Go to http://www.waytekwire.com/ , click on Products, and
search for "braided split sleeving".
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking to upgrade my K&W charger. I have a 96V
conversion and would like to upgrade to a "smart"
charger.
If anyone is selling a charger please let me know.
Thanks,
Joel Silverman
85 Volts Rabbit conversion
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of layup would you recommend?
I'm thinking of using kevlar on at least the outside layer, but I'm not
sure if using kevlar on the inside layers is worth the extra cost over
using glass.
With a vacumm molded layup, is there a significant weight advantage of
using a laminated foam core instead of extra layers of glass? THe body
doesn't have to be super strong, just strong enough to hold it's shape in
40-50 mph wind speed.
You might look at what they do with lightweight canoes ( and other boats) .
I own a very lightweight 18 foot canoe ( by Wenonah). It's about 38 pounds
total. The hull ( at the bottom) is kevlar inside and out, with a foam
core ( about 3/8 inch thick). The non-foam core versions are much heavier (
and cheaper) .
The disadvantage here is that the foam layup is stiffer but less resistant
to damage from a blow ( esp. a sharp object). In your case, stiffness may
not be as important, but you would get more oveall strength, also.
Also, the extra stiffness from the foam layup would be more important where
the panels are flat. In areas of high curvature - especially 3-D curves -
you may get plenty of stiffness ( and strength) without the foam.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ive had a few requests looking at how I would attack an in field motor repair
the following is a brief look at what I would do for those interested. First
lets add the disclaimer, hehehe. I also rushed as to get this posted by Sunday
for Nick
Always use eye protection; never work beyond your skills unless you are willing
to pay for the repairs in both skin and money. DO NOT breathe the brush dust.
Gloves are optional and separate the boys from the girls hehehe.
This is what I would recommend to those who would like to do a motor
freshen-up. Remember many things discussed here may not be applicable to your
motor.
Tear down procedure:
For me as I get several varieties I use the letters HT and stamp my end plates
and housing in line from C.E. to D.E. so I know how to reassemble the plates
correctly if they are non-symmetrical, this also marks the motor as mine
because I love them, hehehe. With a pick or small hook lift the brushes and
set the spring on the brush side and lock the brushes in a lifted position.
This will keep the brushes from pushing in and possibly snagging the bearing as
you remove the armature. Remove the drive end bolts. Use screwdrivers or
pry-bars and pry the drive plate and armature assembly from the housing being
careful not to bump the comm. once out set it on a bench with the drive plate
hanging over the edge.
If you have pullers then use them. Try to grab from the inner most area you
can pull from. The threaded mounting holes of the plate are good to pull from,
if you have a puller that can grab bolts, which have been threaded into these
holes. You are less likely to break the plate pulling from here rather than
grabbing around the O.D. If you have a shaft with a threaded end, leave the
nut loose at the end. This will keep you from splitting the shaft if the
pullers are not equipped with a shaft saver type tip. Once the plate has been
pulled to the nut remove it and finish pulling plate off. If you feel you are
going to break the plate which believe me does happen (not to me of course, but
so Ive heard), then use a torch to heat the inner bearing race inside the
bearing itself. Remove the rubber seal if applicable or just burn through a
steel shield. This will expand the bearing and she should break loose with a
nice pop if the plate was under puller force. If the pla!
te is
being a real jerk then hit the puller end with a hammer straight in line with
the puller and shaft as someone also described earlier. When even this attempt
is foiled then your only recourse is to cut the bearing out as mentioned
earlier also. All of these ways were mentioned and are all good ways to use
both this is the order I would attack it in.
Now for those without pullers.
I actually prefer to set the armature and D.E. plate assy. onto a second case.
This one is empty so the fan wont hit the fields and the armature and is free
to drop away once detached from the bearing. I also use rags so the armature
doesnt it the ground. I like this way because you distribute the force along
the whole plate as you drive the shaft down with a dead blow mallet and is one
of the fastest ways to remove the armature from the D.E. plate. For those who
dont have an extra housing or large round metal base to hang the armature and
to rest the plate against I recommend to go rent or buy a puller ; (youll be
glad you did.
Once the D.E. plate has been removed the snap ring can be depressed and
removed. Be warned they like to jump out at your face, see safety glasses.
The bearing can now be tapped out. This bearing should just slide out. If it
is hard to remove you have either cocked it or it has run against a marred snap
ring lip area. If you are stuck on that lip then reseat the bearing and remove
any burs from the lip with an X-acto blade or file. If cocked start over, and
try to tap it straight and it should just tap out. Installing the new bearing
is the same here. This bearing should be easy out easy in.
The only way to remove the C.E. bearing is to use pullers or pry-bars but the
latter is not very effective and you end up scarring the comm. and or the
bake-a-lite face.
>From forklift dirty to EV clean
I use a hot soap and water degreaser. In fact if the wife allowed you to, you
could wash your motor in her sink. With a fresh black eye youve decided that
maybe outside might be better. Add some soap to some hot water and scrub away
at any grease and grime that maybe lurking. Now you must get the water out! I
use compressed air and blow out all I can and then use my bake oven to bake out
the rest, but you could use the wifes range set at 250ish
If one black eye is
enough from the Mrs., you can use a small heater set outside and put the
armature and or housing close until it is dried out. You can use solvents but
I take no responsibility to your house burning down and the ensuing wife
beating you will receive (also do not breathe vapor). Use an OHMmeter to make
sure that your parts are ground free (no continuity between any steel to any
copper). A pre-test should be done so you know whether you started with a
ground or may still have some moisture left to dry out. !
Just
touch any copper area to any steel area, it should not show any continuity
between them @ a minimum RX times 10K meter. I use a 40 M fluke meter
If you wanted to really shine it up use some clear AC-46 insulation spray from
EIS and coat all your windings and let it air dry, AHHHHH.
Inspection
Ive always told my guys nothing beats a good pair of eyes, and to never rely
totally on test equipment. What I mean by that is lets say I test for
resistance and it doesnt show any continuity, so Im good right? Well no not
really. What color is the insulation? Bright and yellow, or really dark? Do
you see a really nice yellow band with a dark brown steak running through it??
Well that tells me that armature has an open in one of the windings. Are your
windings nice and wine colored with hard, tough, and sharp insulation that
looks like it would just swipe a knuckle clean open if you gave it half a
chance? Or does it look dark, soft, flaky and at worse case ashy. Look for
dark banding as this is a bad sign unlike even darkening, where the motor is
just getting hot.
Make sure your brush holders have no wiggle, as they can get loose if heated.
Nothing will destroy your motor faster than if a holder busted through the
insulated part of the brush ring, and yes it does happen if heated enough. The
holders get hot and heats the board around the rivets and they can eventually
pull through. This is more applicable to low volt usage but felt Id have you
all go wiggle your holders real quick ; )
Look at the comm. does it have any pitting? Is it grooved, if yes is it enough
to have it turned? These you would have to determine yourself or send a pic so
I could look. Inspect the comm. edge where it meets the bake-a-lite to see if
there is any lifting or cracks. If cracks are present there, get it dipped and
baked and then turned. If you bring in just an armature most places can turn
it fairly inexpressively.
Matching bearings
The number your looking for is a 4-digit number (located on the seal area)
usually starting with 6 as in 6207 (6200 series) or 6306, (6300 series) etc.
There are tons of dashes after the number like 2RS and PP and ZZ which are seal
and shield codes. Just bring the bearings down (but keep the C.E. one for
later) to a bearing house and buy a set based on your needs, preferences, and
or budget. See oozing motor thread for more on bearings.
If everything has gone at least somewhat according to plan (which it hasnt)
you are now ready to reassemble the motor.
Install bearing into the D.E. plate (it should just tap in easy). A dab of
loc-tite can be used here. Install the cleaned snap ring.
Drive or press the plate and bearing assy onto the shaft using a small piece of
pipe. I use hardened bearing drivers (available individually at EIS in
numbers 0 through 9). A 6207 or 6307 bearing uses a number 7 driver (the last
number on your bearing is the number of the driver you would need to use. You
want to press or drive the bearing from the inner race so you do not stress it.
Make sure that the pipe does not go into the seal or shield area as this would
be bad! If you press from the plate you are applying all that force through
the bearing. I hammer drive bearing all the time and as long as you dont go
mad and try to seat the bearing with one blow you will be fine. The nice thing
I like about hammer driving is that when you do seat the bearing you can hear a
ting type noise and it is different than when driving. Check to see if the fan
rubs. Spin the plate around, (do not put finger between fan and plate) (I had
a boss that did that)(7 stitches)(and a bone s!
pur). If
it doesnt make an aluminum ching ching ching sound you are go for comm. end
bearing.
If you saved your old C.E. bearing wipe it off and use it on top of the new
one. This will allow you to hit it and not the new bearing. This will only
work on shafts that have short journals. You dont want the old bearing to
press onto the shaft. Most C.E. shafts are short and this will work well for
those in field. Once on rotate the bearing around, it should feel really
smooth. If not bring the bearing back and let them know that there was no way
your 14 pound hammer could have damaged the bearing to this extent (and you had
followed the internet instructions to the T) and demand that it be replaced
with a better bearing for free (let me know if this works, hehe).
At this point you are ready to slip the armature and D.E. plate back into the
motor housing assy. Remember to install the wave washer before installing
armature. Install your rear bolts and tighten (remember they are only ¼ X 20
bolts and can break if over-torqued) (also these are self tapping bolts and
will go in a little hard, as the factory does not pre-tap holes), and hand spin
the motor to see if it free spins. Do this with the brushes lifted from the
comm. with no brush tension. If there is no rubbing in fan and or armature
body, set the brushes and springs and give it a 12-volt bench test. She should
purr.
There are Im sure many issues facing those with their first motor adventure,
but I hope this will give you a basic list of how to go about it. A quick
E-mail can help resolve any mishaps and issues that may arise.
I hope this was informative
Good luck
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark, Phil and All,
Many here have engineeritius where they must
use the most complicated, costly way to go.
I have never used a DC/DC, instead just
charged my small battery that is sized to last 3 hrs
though 2 would be plenty on most EV's.
If by some chance the voltage isn't getting
to the headlights, ect, just do what Lee says, run
heavier wire and use a reg auto relay in a direct wire
to the load from the batt, they sell just for this at
any auto parts store though may take some research.
KIS,
Jerry Dycus
--- Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
> I am aware of the 13.8v factor that is present when
> an alternator is being
> used in a standard configuration. I am opting to
> reduce a lot of loads to
> be viable with the battery voltage ( and current
> capabilities) and add the
> converter later if it is a problem. Headlamps (as
> you mentioned) use a lot
> of power and I am already looking at ways to run at
> reduced levels on the
> 12v side and keep everything going at a DOD
> approximating the traction pack
> side. In other words who says you MUST keep 13.8
> available if everything
> continues to go? There are bound to be some more
> efficient bulbs, etc. that
> I can use and many loads don't have to be run
> except on an intermittant
> basis, ie radio antenna motor, seat motors, mirror
> motors, defrosters, seat
> heaters, etc. (also 5 wiper motors).
>
> Trying to think outside the box.....
>
> :-) Mark
>
> http://saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an 8" ADC from a Sparrow. This motor had a major problem. Some of
the brush rigging came loose and was turned into scrap metal.
So, how do I get this fixed?
I'd love to ship it to our new Motor Expert her on list, but I think
shipping may make that a tad uneconomical. So, anybody know a place in the
greater Seattle area that could fix this thing?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim;
Thanks for the good points, and a rather belated welcome to the List.
Great to see more people aboard. Especially guyz that are making EV's
happen. I guess I'm gunna hafta break down and fix it right, like have the
shaft welded or built back up to spec. and buy some decent bearings THEN get
the damn thing balanced including the clutch an' flywheel. I have hearsd
guyz say that SOME cars, Rabbit? Have EVERYthing balanced at once engine
crankshaft and all. So IF you tale the flywheel off and use it on something
else, a motor, ya are out of balance, already , cuz it isn't on the
origional crankshaft?Do I make any sense?
So If I were to take the armature WITH the clutch and flywheel, maybe
without the disk, pressure plate assembled to be balanced as one unit?Can a
balance place handle that glunky a thing?" Yeah! I do it all the time" I
hear ya thinking? I have had a vibration issue right along but not that
obnoxious that I thought it would be a problem.Damn TIRES were most if it,
would take them back to the balance guy to have them done AGAIN. Over 70 it
was a problem.
Gunna go through the front end, new wrack an' pinion and ball joints,
struts all that fadarah, gret everything tight again.Got Rust--o-Matic
issues, too. Gotta fix the rotten floor and rocker panels. Better yet; find
a clean new Rabbit. Dream on! They are all mulch here!VERY few twenty year
old cars here.Not like PDX's rolling auto museum that we eastern guyz marvel
over when in town.
Seeya at Woodburn?
Bob....the guy that makes that pilgrimage EVery year!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent Jim,
Hope I never have to do the tear down, but if I do I will have a procedure to
follow.
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just let me know what part you are in need of (just the brush ring and springs)
or with brushes. Costs around $4.00 for those light items to ship plus part
cost (I'd cut you a good deal) and I probably have them in stock. Also whats
the comm look like. Father time might be willing to bring the armature down to
the shop for a dip and turn on his next trip down maybe lol. I get motors
from Albertsons Dist. in N. Salt Lake Ut. and Rite Aid Dist. in Woodland Ca.
all the time. I also try to ship back full builds with no return shipping
costs. This might help you send it down to get it back into shape. Just some
FYI. Also FT is trying to get me up there. If that happens soon I might bring
up some parts and be able to come take a look.
Let me know if I can help
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
"John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I have an 8" ADC from a Sparrow. This motor had a major problem. Some of
the brush rigging came loose and was turned into scrap metal.
So, how do I get this fixed?
I'd love to ship it to our new Motor Expert her on list, but I think
shipping may make that a tad uneconomical. So, anybody know a place in the
greater Seattle area that could fix this thing?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
> Good idea on using relays. When it comes down to it, you
> don't have to follow the "rules" that apply to the wiring
> of a conventional vehicle anyway.
Exactly. You don't *need* to have 1v drops from battery to load. They
just do it because it saves money on wire and connectors.
Likewise, the auto companies make no attempt whatsoever to minimize 12v
power consumption. They treat it as a free, infinite resource. The
alternator and motors they use are the lowest efficiency types you can
get. The lamps take massive amounts of power for the light they produce.
The radio uses 100 times the power of a battery-operated boombox.
> The problem I see with the DC-DC converters is that they only
> deliver fairly low currents and are expensive at that. Without
> a suitable battery in the system there isn't much hope of
> driving heavy loads in any case.
I didn't notice what DC/DC converters he intended to use. What was their
output current rating?
With an accessory battery, the DC/DC only needs to be able to supply the
*average* 12v load current. Even a small battery can provide high peak
currents briefly, and not sag any more than a normal car's electrical
system. An alternator also cannot supply high current at idle, and
depends on the battery.
When I had the Balancer out of my EV, my DC/DC was a tiny 12v 1.5amp
switchmode power supply intended for a laptop computer. It worked fine.
In "fair weather" driving with no accessory loads, the DC/DC had just
enough to power the main contactor and charge the accessory battery at
0.5 amp. In "bad weather" with the lights, radio, and wipers on, the 12v
system used about 25 amps, and ran off the battery. But I had a large
enough accessory battery to run it all for an hour or more; as long as I
could drive anyway with my propulsion pack. Basically, the battery
handled the 25 amp accessory load, and the DC/DC just brought it back up
to full charge overnight.
> I am currently evaluating computer switching power supplies
> to see if they can be modified to be converters.
The typical el-cheapo computer power supplies aren't worth bothering
with. They aren't built well enough to survive the automotive
environment, and don't have any of the safety or control circuitry
needed for battery charging.
> My whole "hangup" is going to be getting the transmission adapter
> made up with my rogue approach at using the automatic transaxle.
That fear of the unknown! We've all felt it, though for different parts
of the design. This list can help. No matter what you want to try,
someone else has probably tried it first and can give you advice on what
to watch out for.
> To date my best offer on the machine work is about $900 and
> requires shipping my transmission to CA.
Well, there are "Cheap John" methods, too. We discussed them a few
months back on the EV list. Ways to use standard industrial couplers,
and do machining using your traction motor as your lathe.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> What's the story with the voltage ratings on contactors? For example,
> an SW200 is rated at a recommended 96V, yet people seem to use them
> for higher voltage packs all the time.
The ratings on a contactor (or switch, motor, fuse or other mechanical
device) are just one data point on a curve. The ratings on the SW200
contactor are telling you that *IF* you switch 96v at 250 amps, it will
typically last 100,000 cycles.
At lower voltages and currents, it lasts longer. At much lower voltages
and currents, it will typically last 1,000,000 cycles or more (called
the mechanical wear-out life).
Similarly, at higher voltages and currents, it still works but has a
shorter life. They give you one data point at high power; it will switch
96v at 1500 amps *once*! This is intended as an emergency cutoff, and
you would replace the contacts afterward.
Many EVers choose to use contactors (and switches, motors, and fuses) at
higher-than rated voltages to save money. They still work, but life is
reduced. At double the rated voltage, the device is still likely to
work, but life may be reduced 10:1 (to 10,000 cycles or less). Much
higher than 2:1, the device will probably fail to open at all -- it
won't be able to extinguish the arc on turn-off, and will burn itself up
trying.
> Also, would putting a contactor mid-pack make it need a smaller voltage
> rating?
No. It's a series circuit, so the voltage across it when open is the
same no matter where it goes. Same applies to fuses, circuit breakers
connectors, etc.
However, you can put multiple contacts in series to increase the voltage
rating. It is common to use *two* contactors in series, both operated
simultaneously, to double the voltage that they can safely break.
Likewise, it is common to have two or more connectors or switch contacts
in series for the same purpose.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
>
> Lee, were those just standard auto relays that you'd buy at an auto part
> store, or did you opt for higher quality relays?
I could have used normal auto relays, but happened to have some Omron
industrial relays with 12v coils and 15amp contacts, and so used them.
It's interesting to note the claimed ratings on automotive relays. The
same relay is sold as an industrial relay with different ratings
depending on its usage. For example:
Industrial:
coil - 12vdc at 1 watt nominal, 8vdc min, 16vdc max
contacts - 120vac or 28vdc at 15 amps; 100,000 cycle life
insulation - >1500v between coil and contacts, or open contacts
Automotive:
coil - 12vdc at 1.2 watts nominal, 6vdc min, 15vdc max
(less efficient, runs hotter)
contacts - 28vdc at 30 amps; 10,000 cycle life
(higher current rating, but much shorter life)
insulation - 100v between coil and contacts, or open contacts
(much weaker insulation)
Basically, they rewind the coil to use more power but pull in harder.
This puts more force on the closed contacts, so they can increase the
current rating. They also adjust the armature for a decreased open
contact spacing, which lowers the voltage rating but also lowers the
minimum pull-in voltage spec (because cars sag pretty low during engine
cranking).
But the contacts are the same size; running twice the current means
twice the voltage drop, and 4 times the power dissipation. The
automotive relay thus runs much hotter and has a higher voltage drop if
you use it at its higher rated current.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't balance or wind my own armatures. I buy them from those who specialize
in just that and who don't do full motors. They are really two seperate
businesses. It's not that I can't, but I can buy them wholesale cheaper than I
can do it myself. Do what you do best and pay for the rest. Here is an
example. I can buy that shaft new for under $60.00, thats alot cheaper than a
CNC machine to make them myself, and I wouldn't even dream of welding it and
changing the metal properties of the shaft (especially racers) for the same
cost just to repair. Now if would take an hour or two to press, dip, and turn
the armature but you would have a new shaft, and a fresh armature. When I look
at how armatures are balanced they are balanced both front and back, saying
that it does matter where you balance to at least some extrent. I'll ask my
armature people Monday to see what they say. Anything is doable but at what
cost. You may find someone to balance the whole motor and driv!
e line
assy. if you wanted but would die from the $20,000 repair bill,lol. Also most
balancers will ask you at what RPM you want it balanced to, so there seems to
be an optimum RPM balancing area. Just a couple of things to add to the
equation. Forklift motors don't really require the balancing that EV'ers do
and so I'll keep you all posted as I continue to learn. I am not (as Wayland
implies a MOTOR GOD, I tell him add another O as in GOOD) but just an average
joe who still gets "schooled" by motors all the time. A good motor rebuilder
is just able to "win the fight" after he has had his hide kicked by the motor
from one side of the shop to the other. I will give a final posting to John's
Siamese twin retrofit when I am done getting my A$$ kicked by it and have time
to sit and share some up's and down's in trying to make 2 into 1. We have
added many features that I feel will be standard fare for you guys and I just
can't wait to get it on the track. I'll find out more on b!
alancing
and share a post as I can
Good luck
Jim Husted
Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jim;
Thanks for the good points, and a rather belated welcome to the List.
Great to see more people aboard. Especially guyz that are making EV's
happen. I guess I'm gunna hafta break down and fix it right, like have the
shaft welded or built back up to spec. and buy some decent bearings THEN get
the damn thing balanced including the clutch an' flywheel. I have hearsd
guyz say that SOME cars, Rabbit? Have EVERYthing balanced at once engine
crankshaft and all. So IF you tale the flywheel off and use it on something
else, a motor, ya are out of balance, already , cuz it isn't on the
origional crankshaft?Do I make any sense?
So If I were to take the armature WITH the clutch and flywheel, maybe
without the disk, pressure plate assembled to be balanced as one unit?Can a
balance place handle that glunky a thing?" Yeah! I do it all the time" I
hear ya thinking? I have had a vibration issue right along but not that
obnoxious that I thought it would be a problem.Damn TIRES were most if it,
would take them back to the balance guy to have them done AGAIN. Over 70 it
was a problem.
Gunna go through the front end, new wrack an' pinion and ball joints,
struts all that fadarah, gret everything tight again.Got Rust--o-Matic
issues, too. Gotta fix the rotten floor and rocker panels. Better yet; find
a clean new Rabbit. Dream on! They are all mulch here!VERY few twenty year
old cars here.Not like PDX's rolling auto museum that we eastern guyz marvel
over when in town.
Seeya at Woodburn?
Bob....the guy that makes that pilgrimage EVery year!
>
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