EV Digest 4464
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: List Meta Request
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Russco heaters.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Transaxle Weight?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Russco heaters.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Russco heaters.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: List Meta Request
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Transaxle Weight?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: List Meta Request
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Russco heaters.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: discontinued Siemens motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Russco heaters.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: bilge pumps was Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: List Meta Request
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Evercel high rate discharge
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: List Meta Request
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: List Meta Request
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: List Meta Request
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Best Garden Tractor for Conversion? - ETEK - No Controller?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Silicon batteries Reply from China
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) New controller? was Re: Russco heaters.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: [homebuiltcars] Hybrids, EV drives, Re: Jerry's feedback.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Need efficiency numbers for debate
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: List Meta Request
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: [homebuiltcars] Hybrids, EV drives, Re: Jerry's feedback.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Best Garden Tractor for Conversion? - ETEK - No Controller?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: things that get on your nerves
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Silicon batteries Reply from China
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
28) Re: Silicon batteries Reply from China
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
29) Re: things that get on your nerves
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Change the all the list-posters to suit your mail program? ahhh, nice to
be centre of the world! ;-)
Perhaps you can check into fixing your mail program or use another program -
much easier than changing the ways of hundreds of people. I, for one, like
the current method and often take advantage of it.
It's not as if I'm suggesting people support my need for some esoteric
feature -- It's a commonly-used feature found in just about every email
program, including "old school" programs such as Pine, Elm, and Mutt.
It allows grouping of email by subject with a tree structure of replies,
rather than a jumbled list. My email program doesn't need to be
"fixed," as it isn't broken. Are you suggesting that when someone uses a
crescent wrench as a hammer that the problem is with the wrench?
I merely ask for simple list etiquette, as It's equivalent to breaking
into a conversation circle and rudely changing the subject to what YOU
want to talk about, when noone in that group is interested. This list
has several sub-topics going on at one time, and I'm usually tracking /
interested in several of them.
The only problem with your suggestion is that the context of the note is
lost when a thread spawns new ideas.
That's the flip side to the same problem, except that the subject ISN'T
changed when it's should to be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Russ Kaufmann wrote:
>
>> And then Russco got tired of being a plumber and became charger man.
>> Tomorrow, controller man.
>
> AC or DC...?
>
> (any details?)
>
Without getting too detailed, the proposed HV500R RUSSCO controller will
fit the hardware of 99% of existing EV conversions and provide a feature
not currently available.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO ENGINEEERING
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I concurr on the ~61 lb Sprint/Swift/Metro tranny. I think there were
three final drive ratios made, ranging from 3.79:1 to 4.10:1.
hth,
Andrew_Suzuki nut.
Otmar wrote:
At 10:13 AM -0700 6/29/05, Don Cameron wrote:
I have been researching how I want to connect the motor to the wheels
for
this new sports car I am building.
It must be independent suspension, lightweight and have a very ratios
available for it (at least 4.3:1)
Two options are a direct drive to a lightweight rear differential or
use a
lightweight transaxle.
1) For light differentials, there is the Mazda Miata and the R160 from
Datsun 510s and Subarus. These weight approx 50-70lbs.
2) As for a transaxle, I was thinking the Geo Metro.
Does anyone know the actual weight of a Geo Metro transaxle?
Hi Don,
I weighed a 1987 Chevy Sprint transaxle back 1991. (very similar to
Geo Metro) I seem to recall it weighed 61 lbs. Back then notes were in
paper so I don't have it here (they are deep in the attic in case you
need it accurately). I'd say I'm 95% sure it was within 8 lbs of that.
The Porsche 914 transaxle which is certainly heavier weighs 87 lbs.
For reference the gen 1 GM EV-1 reduction gear and differential in
case weigh about 50 to 60 lbs.
I suggest using a transverse transaxle if possible since they are more
efficient than the 90 degree angle drive in most standard differentials.
hth,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Russ Kaufmann wrote:
>
>> And then Russco got tired of being a plumber and became charger man.
>> Tomorrow, controller man.
>
> AC or DC...?
>
> (any details?)
>
The proposed RUSSCO HV500R EV controller will fit the hardware of 99% of
the conversions and provide a feature not now available from any
manufacturer.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Hi Russ,
>
> Did you mean yesterday, controller man? I have a Russco controller that
> you built quite a few years ago.
>
> Gail
>
Another twenty year old RUSSCO controller survives. Bob Wing had a RUSSCO
controller that provided long service, too. Congratulations!
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you want start new thread you have to type in "ev_at_listproc...
in the "to" field. Even with autocompletion feature it is still
typing something. People avoid tyoing even that by just hitting
"Reply" and changing the subject, that way "To" field is populated
automatically.
So your mail server must be able to track threads by subject lines
only, not by header info. YEs, it is good etiquette to start fresh email
if you want new thread, but, sorry, no one will bother if "reply" is
easier.
Victor
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Don Cameron wrote:
Change the all the list-posters to suit your mail program? ahhh,
nice to
be centre of the world! ;-)
Perhaps you can check into fixing your mail program or use another
program -
much easier than changing the ways of hundreds of people. I, for one,
like
the current method and often take advantage of it.
It's not as if I'm suggesting people support my need for some esoteric
feature -- It's a commonly-used feature found in just about every email
program, including "old school" programs such as Pine, Elm, and Mutt.
It allows grouping of email by subject with a tree structure of replies,
rather than a jumbled list. My email program doesn't need to be
"fixed," as it isn't broken. Are you suggesting that when someone uses a
crescent wrench as a hammer that the problem is with the wrench?
I merely ask for simple list etiquette, as It's equivalent to breaking
into a conversation circle and rudely changing the subject to what YOU
want to talk about, when noone in that group is interested. This list
has several sub-topics going on at one time, and I'm usually tracking /
interested in several of them.
The only problem with your suggestion is that the context of the note is
lost when a thread spawns new ideas.
That's the flip side to the same problem, except that the subject ISN'T
changed when it's should to be.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I suggest using a transverse transaxle if possible since they are
> more efficient than the 90 degree angle drive in most standard
> differentials.
The differential portion of a transaxle is more efficient than a RWD
ring and pinion type differential, however, I suspect that the transaxle
is at par at best with directly driving a RWD diff due to the additional
inefficiencies of having to drive the FWD diff via at least one
additional gear pair in the transaxle.
My concern would be with the availability of various gear ratios for a
Metro/Sprint/Swift transaxle and its ability to survive the torque
demands in a performance oriented vehicle. If you were using it just
for the more efficient differential, you could lighten it further by
removing the unneeded gears and shift forks, etc., however, I believe it
would still be bulkier than the R160 RWD IRS diff.
Unless there were some significant advantage to the transverse motor
mounting arrangement allowed by using a FWD transaxle, I would be
inclined to go with the R160 diff since a wide range of ratios will be
readily available for it and it will be more likely to withstand (or be
built up to withstand) the demands of a performance oriented vehicle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've never been in an e-mail group where this type of request didn't come up
on a regular basis. I've also never been in an e-mail group where I have
seen the request make much of a difference. (net)etiquette is kinda like
common sense in that we always think because it is obvious or simple for us
it should be easily applied to everyone else.
To be honest, your original post was too long and rambling to hold my
attention, but for the record I try to keep my posts relevant to the stated
subject line or change the subject line appropriately which is what I am
guessing your request was... I mean, that seems like common sense to me :-)
good luck
damon
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: List Meta Request
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:32:37 -0700
Don Cameron wrote:
Change the all the list-posters to suit your mail program? ahhh, nice to
be centre of the world! ;-)
Perhaps you can check into fixing your mail program or use another program
-
much easier than changing the ways of hundreds of people. I, for one,
like
the current method and often take advantage of it.
It's not as if I'm suggesting people support my need for some esoteric
feature -- It's a commonly-used feature found in just about every email
program, including "old school" programs such as Pine, Elm, and Mutt.
It allows grouping of email by subject with a tree structure of replies,
rather than a jumbled list. My email program doesn't need to be
"fixed," as it isn't broken. Are you suggesting that when someone uses a
crescent wrench as a hammer that the problem is with the wrench?
I merely ask for simple list etiquette, as It's equivalent to breaking
into a conversation circle and rudely changing the subject to what YOU
want to talk about, when noone in that group is interested. This list
has several sub-topics going on at one time, and I'm usually tracking /
interested in several of them.
The only problem with your suggestion is that the context of the note is
lost when a thread spawns new ideas.
That's the flip side to the same problem, except that the subject ISN'T
changed when it's should to be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, there is no reason for it to not have survived as it is still in
the box in my living room. We never got around to doing the conversion we
had planned for it. Perhaps when I retire.... Is it still under
warranty? :)
Gail
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Hi Russ,
> >
> > Did you mean yesterday, controller man? I have a Russco controller that
> > you built quite a few years ago.
> >
> > Gail
> >
> Another twenty year old RUSSCO controller survives. Bob Wing had a RUSSCO
> controller that provided long service, too. Congratulations!
>
> Russ Kaufmann
> RUSSCO Engineering
> The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles (and all),
One last 5133 motor will be available with either short Simovert 6-SV1
or Simotion inverter. Whom ever grabs it first. They probably will be
available in some future, but the cost is unknown. This one still goes
at surplus price (brand new motor and inverter of course).
Charles Whalen wrote:
Just checking Victor's website (http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm), I
noticed that some of the Siemens motors at the lower end of the power scale
have been discontinued, including the 18kW (cont.) 5105 and the 30kW (cont.)
5133, the latter of which is apparently no longer available for individual
purchase in single quantities. It seems that Siemens must not have been
getting enough orders for the 5133 to keep up their production line on it,
as they will now only make a special order production run of the 5133 motor
for large quantity bulk purchases of 50-200 units. That's a bummer for me
as the 5133 was my preferred choice for my 914 conversion. The 45kW (cont.)
Siemens 5135 (which apparently *is* still available) is a bit overpowered
and heavy for my particular application.
Does Victor or anyone over there in Europe know what's going on with
Siemens? Are they getting out of the motor business at the lower end of the
power scale (as it doesn't look like they are replacing these discontinued
motors with any newer models, from what I can tell from Victor's website)?
I guess I'll have to look into the MES motors, although I don't believe
anyone over here in the States has done a conversion with them, at least not
that I can see on the EV Album. So that's a pretty big unknown as far as
the lack of any empirical record; no one to ask about their experience with
MES motors, although I heard that they are being used in some limited
production OEM EVs in Europe.
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this waht is meant by meta-request (the content below no longer
has anything to do with the subject)?
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Actually, there is no reason for it to not have survived as it is still in
the box in my living room. We never got around to doing the conversion we
had planned for it. Perhaps when I retire.... Is it still under
warranty? :)
Gail
On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Russ,
Did you mean yesterday, controller man? I have a Russco controller that
you built quite a few years ago.
Gail
Another twenty year old RUSSCO controller survives. Bob Wing had a RUSSCO
controller that provided long service, too. Congratulations!
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about 1/100 Clorox? That gets scum out of drinking water., Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: bilge pumps was Taper Lock Specs? Anyone?
> At 08:47 AM 6/29/2005, Rich Rudman wrote:
> >Oh yea anybody know of a mold alge killer that works good in a closed
> >system? My stuff rotted and was turning into slime. Rude smells are NOT
part
> >of the EV experience.
>
> There is the stuff for waterbeds. Don't know how it handles hi-temp
though.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Are you suggesting that when someone uses a crescent
> wrench as a hammer that the problem is with the wrench?
No need to get silly with this. I am presenting a different point of view,
that is all.
> I merely ask for simple list etiquette, as It's equivalent to breaking
into a
> conversation circle and rudely changing the subject to what YOU want to
talk about,
> when noone in that group is interested. This list has several sub-topics
> going on at one time, and I'm usually tracking / interested in several of
them.
This is called "high jacking a thread" and it is not a good thing - I agree.
However, when a current thread takes a new angle, I like the fact that
someone has the etiquette to change the subject line, but keep the thread
content alive to show where the info came from. This is **not**
interrupting a conversation, it is starting a new conversation, and people
can respond anyway the wish. This really helps with creativity and **is**
good etiquette.
The problem here is not the listers - it is your mail program. I have no
problem with the mail programs I am using for sorting by subject - works
fine. Works with web mail, Outlook, Eudora.
We obviously have different points of view in what we like. I am happy with
the way it works; feel it **is** good etiquette; and do not see the need to
change to accommodate your mail program.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: June 29, 2005 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: List Meta Request
Don Cameron wrote:
>Change the all the list-posters to suit your mail program? ahhh, nice to
>be centre of the world! ;-)
>
>
>Perhaps you can check into fixing your mail program or use another
>program - much easier than changing the ways of hundreds of people. I,
>for one, like the current method and often take advantage of it.
>
>
It's not as if I'm suggesting people support my need for some esoteric
feature -- It's a commonly-used feature found in just about every email
program, including "old school" programs such as Pine, Elm, and Mutt.
It allows grouping of email by subject with a tree structure of replies,
rather than a jumbled list. My email program doesn't need to be
"fixed," as it isn't broken. Are you suggesting that when someone uses a
crescent wrench as a hammer that the problem is with the wrench?
I merely ask for simple list etiquette, as It's equivalent to breaking into
a conversation circle and rudely changing the subject to what YOU want to
talk about, when noone in that group is interested. This list has several
sub-topics going on at one time, and I'm usually tracking / interested in
several of them.
>The only problem with your suggestion is that the context of the note
>is lost when a thread spawns new ideas.
>
>
That's the flip side to the same problem, except that the subject ISN'T
changed when it's should to be.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just in case nobody responds to this thread...
Ummm, if you have the money for refridgerating the
batteries, but don't have the money to do Hawkers,
which will work better in the first place, I see
diminishing returns for your efforts. I had a friend
employ them in a BMW EV, and get unsatisfactory
results with just normal discharge rates...
(;-p
--- john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My friends and I are converting a 1980 VW Scirocco
> into a drag racer at our school here in chicago,
> IIT. We were fortunate enough to come across 24
> evercel mb80-12 batteries which are the 64 amp/hour
> models. Special thanks to Tom Hudson who was very
> generous in donating these to our sae program. On
> the voltage forum im being told these batteries will
> not work for high current discharge because the
> plastic plates will melt. I have known that
> evercels are not meant for high current continous
> discharge, but at 15 second high current discharges
> during actual racing, will this still cause them to
> heat up quickly enough and melt?
> We were planning on a cooling unit of some sort for
> these if that is what it would take for them to work
> for our application. Its only a theory, if we
> constructed the battery boxes our of aluminum and
> sealed the boxes off and were able to refridgerate
> the batteries with some sort of surplus
> refridgeration unit, will this not help?
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the
> tour
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or you just click on the address in the "To:" or "Reply-To:" fields. I
haven't typed the address in *years*
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
When you want start new thread you have to type in "ev_at_listproc...
in the "to" field. Even with autocompletion feature it is still
typing something. People avoid tyoing even that by just hitting
"Reply" and changing the subject, that way "To" field is populated
automatically.
So your mail server must be able to track threads by subject lines
only, not by header info. YEs, it is good etiquette to start fresh
email if you want new thread, but, sorry, no one will bother if
"reply" is
easier.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Long and rambling? I was trying to be /polite/. =)
damon henry wrote:
I've never been in an e-mail group where this type of request didn't
come up on a regular basis. I've also never been in an e-mail group
where I have seen the request make much of a difference.
(net)etiquette is kinda like common sense in that we always think
because it is obvious or simple for us it should be easily applied to
everyone else.
To be honest, your original post was too long and rambling to hold my
attention, but for the record I try to keep my posts relevant to the
stated subject line or change the subject line appropriately which is
what I am guessing your request was... I mean, that seems like common
sense to me :-)
good luck
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tell you what: Try out the threading feature in your client; it's quite
useful. If you get to liking it, you'll see why it's bad form to make
an OT reply to a thread.
If I were to claim that I like it when people post in ALL CAPS, you'd
find it preposterous if I were to encourage people to do so.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
I was wondering what the best, easiest lawn
tractor would be for conversion?
I'd like simple with just 1 motor preferably
using just 2 speeds, a golf cart or surplus 2 hp PM
motor for drive powered by 24vdc of GC batts.
This is for an article for newbies to do and
something to show to lawn service people what E mowing
can be.
I'm writing a column in an RE online mag
called ESSN on all types of EV's and this is one I'd
like to do. They can also be used for portable power
supplies either 12vdc or 120vac with an inverter.
--- Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think I will lean in the single motor replacing
> the ICE at least as an initial go. I already have
> two ETEKS sitting around and maybe one minor success
> with the tractor will get me moving on my
> cabinscooter more, plus $80 to pay every time the
> lawn is mowed it a bunch.
One motor should be fine!! Especially the E tek by
B+S which is designed to replace ICE's. Surplus Center
has several PM motors at lower cost that should work
too.
> My question is since I'll be doing this do I need a
> controller? The PM motor self limits the RPM and
> when I turn it on there will be only a minor load
> since nothing will be engaged. I guess I will have
Normally you have at least belts and if you were
to run it on 24 vdc for a 36vdc GC series motor, just
a belt + bearing friction should keep it for
overreving.
I was thinking a series/parrallel for 12/24vdc
sped controller would do fine on most lwan tractors as
many are set up for the motor to run full speed all
the time with clutching, transmission varying the
speed.
I wouldn't use AGM's at all as they don't have the
capacity for the job. If more batt room is needed just
put racks in front or back or both or use large group
27-31-34 DC 12vdc batts depending on you motor, use.
Probably a good place for those large surplus gel
cell phone tower batts like Dynasty's that are
available at use batt dealers everywhere now for $20
each or so. If over $25 each, much better to just buy
new floodeds.
Make sure they match in voltage before amp testing
and put out the same max amps so the balance out when
charging.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
> to tie into or make some kind of switch so you can't
> turn on or off except in an emergency if you have
> the blades on.
> Just seems a waste to get a controller to run at one
> speed.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Hastings
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
> Are we willing to chip in?
>
> Who wants the responsibility and headaches associated with being the 'home
> >depot'?
See if the manufacturer will send the container over on consignment
and also take care of the shipping charges.. send it over to my
house, and I'll sell the contents of the container(batteries) at cost
+ shipping to pay back the manufacturer.. That is if among the
members on this list, all the batteries would be bought.
Or have one of the numerous EV parts stores take delivery of the container.
Some interesting info on shipping a container:
"The shipping cost is determined by many factors, such as the season,
the oil price and the routes etc. In order to give our customers a
general idea about the approximate shipping cost, below is an example:
For a 40 feet container, the freight is approximately between USD2500
to USD3700 per container from Chongqing, China to Houston, Texas, USA.
We want you to keep in mind: for freight, the bulk rate is always cheaper."
http://www.motorfactories.com/services.html
But it would be best to have one of these newfangled "silicon
batteries" tested before we commit to several thousand dollars worth
of batteries.
Have the manufacturer send over a product sample for testing and evaluation...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< The proposed RUSSCO HV500R EV controller will fit the hardware of 99% of
the conversions and provide a feature not now available from any
manufacturer. >>>
Hmmm...automatic Halon dispenser? Hopefully not built-in Zilla-envy!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
This is a post on another list to stu which
relates to David Roden's post on 'Hybrids'
While many think of Prius and the Honda
'Hybrids' they are not really as they run on just one
fuel, gasoline so really just ICE's with E
superchargers.
But a true serial Hybrid with a very small
ICE/gen of 6-10hp/1,000lbs and a 30-70 mile range batt
pack with full power EV drive is much more eff than
they are or even a large ICE parallel hybrid is as
David says, as I describe below..
Plus you will notice my usual bias' for small,
lightweight, aero EV's.
Hi Stu and All,
--- boytonstu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> .
> >
> > If simplicity, reliability, eff is your goal,
> why
> > are you using a transmission?
>
> OK. We throw away the clutch and the transmission
> and we are left
> with only the motor>differential.
>
> Are the diff ratios a good match for the motor RPM
> range?
Depends on the motor. Luckily most really cheap
like surplus/used fork lift motors are low rpm units
so match well.
I usually use 40+ yr old E motors, just cleamn
them up and put power to them amd 95% of the time they
work great. 1/2 the other time just a little work gets
them going as little to go wrong in them.
But the other question in a lightweight car is why
do you need a diff? Why not go with 1 rear wheel and
save all the weight, cost of a diff, 2 wheels? A well
designed 2F1R 3wheeler will outhandle the best 4wh
cars, especially 3wheelers with batts to lower the CG
nicely.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > But why design a parallel system in the first
> place?
> > > A series
> > > system, where
> > > the engine drives a generator which then
> provides
> > > power both to the
> > > wheels
> > > and the batteries, is simpler and more
> efficient.
> >
> > Yes it is overall. I believe Kenneth said
> this.
>
> We are now into the diesel/electric mode.
>
> We have:
>
> ICE>generator>batteries>motor>diferential.
Yes but with so much batteries, say 33% of it's
weight, you would rarely use the ICE, instead be
really eff, low cost fuel of grid, RE electric with a
50 mile range on just batts.
And as batts cost by the lb, about $1/lb for the
correct traction batts, their cost is small and they
last 4-7 yrs.
>
> Some words on the generator please. Also, how do
> you
> control/throttle the ICE and the motor controller in
> combination?
> Please expand.
Digitally, either full on or off, thus lowering
costs, problems, controls greatly and running it at
it's max eff. Unlike using a larger one for driving
where it rarely runs eff.
>
>
> > > The clutch is a good `safety' in case of a
> runaway
> > > motor.
> Seems to me that a series system is less efficient.
> >
> > That's what you get for thinking instead of
> the
> > facts.
> > An ICE gets about 7% of it's fuels energy to
> the
> > road where an EV gets about 20% of the powerplants
> > fuel to the road, 30% if one of the new co-gen
> plants.
> > While a small ICE can get better than 7%, not
> much
> > more because of part load ineff.
> > But an ICE going full throttle can get 30%
> plus
> > eff making electric which the EV drive then
> transmits
> > to the road at 80%+ eff or so, much better than an
> > ICE/ trans eff in mixed traffic.
>
> Sounds logical.
> > >
> > > The engine drives a generator which charges the
> > > battery which then
> > > goes through the motor. A loss occurs in each
> serial
> > > process.
> >
> > Wrong, most of the time the electricity goes
> > directly from the gen to the motor though in most
> lead
> > batt charging, eff is about 98% until the final
> 20% of
> > the charge which you do at home slowly, thus more
> eff
> > from the grid. In fact for max eff always use grid
> > power unless you need more range than the batts
> give.
> > Assuming production EV drive, motor/ gen eff
> would
> > be about 90% each.
> >
> >
> > > Sounds very nice!
Could be. You can buy B+S E-tek PM motors that do
that fairly inexpensively for very small cars using 2
of them for drive for very high eff.
>
> > >
> > > I pointed out a 6.5hp Diesel on Ebay that would
> be
> > > perfect for our
> > > Diesel/electric hybrid.
> >
> > If it weighs about 1,000lbs and very aero.
> Double
> > that for 2,000lbs.
>
> I guess that you mean that a 6.5 Hp for 1,000 lb
> qand 13hp for
> 2,000 lb. Am I correct?
Yes to have unlimited range at speed. One could use
just 1- 6.5hp as a range extender to get 200 miles +
in a day in stop and go driving, shopping, ect. But
for crosscountry highway traveling, you need about
6.5hp/1,000 lbs to do 70 mph cont.
> >
> >
> >> It's by far the most eff way. As soon as you
> go for
> > a motor big enough to power by itself, eff drops
> like
> > a rock.
>
>
> I don't understand the "a motor big enough to power
> by itself"
> concept. Please expand.
If you use an ICE for just driving, it must be 5x's
as big for acceleration, hills than one just
generating the average power need and an e motor,
batts giving peak power with much greater eff.
>
>
> I am gravitating towards your plan.
It's more logical I think ;-))
>
>
> Perhaps a list of components such as:
>
> For 1,000 lb vehicle:
> Motor 50-100 lbs
> Battery pack 350 lbs
> Engine Gen 100lbs
> Motor
> Differential ?
>
>
> Many thanks,
Your welcome. I like getting people into vehicles
that get 100 mpg or better, EV grid power or a combo
of both. There is no reason to waste so much just to
move a 200 lb butt a few miles/day.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> BoyntonStu
> >
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question:
A hybrid ice/electric vehicle is more efficient:
1: Use the ICE to directly drive the EV when the batteries are discharged.
2: Use the ICE running at a constant efficient speed to turn a generator to
feed the motor the batteries are discharged.
Which power train is more efficient and by what approximate figure?
This discussion came about on the subject of a Diesel/electric locomotive.
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's the point - you do this, chane the subject,
but email program treats it as the same thread since the header
didn't change.
New thread ideally should have new header, but with your
method it won't.
Eric Poulsen wrote:
Or you just click on the address in the "To:" or "Reply-To:" fields. I
haven't typed the address in *years*
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
When you want start new thread you have to type in "ev_at_listproc...
in the "to" field. Even with autocompletion feature it is still
typing something. People avoid tyoing even that by just hitting
"Reply" and changing the subject, that way "To" field is populated
automatically.
So your mail server must be able to track threads by subject lines
only, not by header info. YEs, it is good etiquette to start fresh
email if you want new thread, but, sorry, no one will bother if
"reply" is
easier.
Victor
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
But a true serial Hybrid with a very small
ICE/gen of 6-10hp/1,000lbs and a 30-70 mile range batt
pack with full power EV drive is much more eff than
they are or even a large ICE parallel hybrid is as
David says, as I describe below..
Plus you will notice my usual bias' for small,
lightweight, aero EV's.
Technically, what you call serial hybrid here is still not a
hybrid at all sinse still runs only on one type of fuel -
gasoline.
When define hybrid it is a good idea to get consensus
whether people talk about hybrid as 2 or more types
of fuel (one can be electricity), or 2 or more types of
propulsion system (ICE and/or electric motor).
BTW, Eiropean Opels capable of switching between
CNG and gasoline at the flip of the switch on the dash
(true hybrids then) are not called hybrids, probably
because they judge by the drive system type, not the
accepted fuels. These cars still has only one ICE happen
to eat 2 types of fuel.
Vcitor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried looking at surplus center but couldn't find one that I thought met what
I need. Maybe I'm just a bad surplus motor searcher though. Was there one in
particular that looked promising Jerry? If the HP was too low I guess I could
use multiple motors to drive the pulley. More losses but hey it's just a mower
I will only get stuck in my lawn.
>From what I have read to replace the one motor directly I need something that
>will maintain a little over 3000rpms to get the same perfomance as the
>gasoline motor it replaced. Changing the RPM's means I need to change pulleys
>and such so it's not as drop in. I'm concerned about not having the blades
>spin fast enough to cut as they used to.
One motor should be fine!! Especially the E tek by
B+S which is designed to replace ICE's. Surplus Center
has several PM motors at lower cost that should work
too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
reb wrote:
> I bought one of the little Reva electric cars...
> I asked them to let me have a workshop manual or tech details
> so I could fix the problems myself...
> their answer was no...
>
> Am I being unreasonable here or do they have a valid point?
> opinions please
The manufacturer thinks their design is "perfect", and no one could
possibly design it better than they did. They may indeed fantasize that
their design will be "stolen" by competitors (as if there are any
competitors for building EVs). Plus, (at least in America), their
lawyers will imagine all sorts of lawsuits if customers dared to work on
their own cars.
The dealer thinks that blocking any self-service will guarantee them
repair business. They assume the customer is an untrained idiot that
would cause more problems rather than fix anything. They also think that
a monopoly on parts means there is no limit to how much they can charge.
Both attitudes have been proven wrong in the past. All new products have
reliability and design issues to work out. The factory makes mistakes
through ignorance, and the dealers don't have the experience to fix them
either. Not providing access to good service information and reasonably
priced parts will alienate customers, and hurt the business in the long
run. Many EV companies have failed because they follow this path!
So, I think you are being reasonable to seek service information.
Frankly, in my experience if you DON'T somehow get the service
information, most EVs will soon wind up undrivable junk. The factory
changes the design and drops support for the earlier model; the dealers
go out of business; or the only employee that knows anything quits. The
car is then unfixable unless the owner has the service information so he
can fix it himself (or find someone who can do it for him).
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> According to the specs in the orig email, the batteries weigh from 15 to 40
kg, so there could be anywhere from 1466 - 15 kg batteries to 550 - 40 kg
batteries.
>
> Assuming, and we all know what a bit#% that can be, that the 40 kg bats are
the 12V33AH, that means that a 20 ft container would cost (1466 * $23.04)
$33,776 for the small bats, and (550 * $71.28) $39,204 for the large bats plus
shipping.
>
Wait a minute - 40kg for a 33Ah battery? An Orbital can supply at least 33Ah,
weighs 40 *pounds*, and can give almost 50C discharges, so there must be some
data we're missing or have wrong.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.guineng.com/work_04.htm lists
12V42Ah - 14.0kg - 7.8"x6.5"x6.4"
12V60Ah - 23.6kg - 10.2"x6.7"x8.7"
12V80Ah - 25.4kg - 12.2"x6.9"x8.1"
12V100Ah - 38.6kg - 16.0"x6.8"x9.2"
so these values make more sense for a battery that is going to compete with an
SLA.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very good points Lee. Now imagine you (the manufacturer) provide
detailed instructions how to replace, say, the harnesses for the
beefier ones. A customer does it, makes a mistake (doesn't mean
he's an idiot; just no one is prefect) and his car caught fire
causing explosion and injuring people in 3 surrounding cars.
Don't be naive thinking that the guy replaced harness will
take responsibility. Who do you think (at least in America)
will get sued?
Other example - cars get modified to be a hot rods all the time,
but the manufacturer never encourages is by providing any
useful for this mod info. So hot rodders accept all the
consequences of their hobby. If the manufacturers OK it,
and produce documents how the car is built), they invite many more
unqualified tinkerers to DIY fix it. Yes this may benefit people
like ones on this list, but ANY trouble with fixing now gets back
to the manufacturer.
Not releasing any info is the only way they know to avoid
responsibility (not to prevent the activity) since any
trouble case now is based on "illegally obtained" documentation.
I'm not saying they are right, I just think it is their point
of view and has its merits too.
Will Rick Woodbury release documentation how to fix Tango?
I doubt. Will Otmar release schematics for Zilla so anyone
can fix (or have it fixed)? Somehow I doubt too and it is not
only because of the risk of lost revenue. After such repairs
by non-experts and inevitable failures, the reputation of the
product and creator is damaged. Auto maufacturers are in the
same boat. They don't mind to release info, but only to those
whom they approve and train like service stations staff, which
is reasonable. Whether this staff becomes greedy feeling monopoly,
is another issue but still not the basis to release the info to
anyone who ask.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
reb wrote:
I bought one of the little Reva electric cars...
I asked them to let me have a workshop manual or tech details
so I could fix the problems myself...
their answer was no...
Am I being unreasonable here or do they have a valid point?
opinions please
The manufacturer thinks their design is "perfect", and no one could
possibly design it better than they did. They may indeed fantasize that
their design will be "stolen" by competitors (as if there are any
competitors for building EVs). Plus, (at least in America), their
lawyers will imagine all sorts of lawsuits if customers dared to work on
their own cars.
The dealer thinks that blocking any self-service will guarantee them
repair business. They assume the customer is an untrained idiot that
would cause more problems rather than fix anything. They also think that
a monopoly on parts means there is no limit to how much they can charge.
Both attitudes have been proven wrong in the past. All new products have
reliability and design issues to work out. The factory makes mistakes
through ignorance, and the dealers don't have the experience to fix them
either. Not providing access to good service information and reasonably
priced parts will alienate customers, and hurt the business in the long
run. Many EV companies have failed because they follow this path!
So, I think you are being reasonable to seek service information.
Frankly, in my experience if you DON'T somehow get the service
information, most EVs will soon wind up undrivable junk. The factory
changes the design and drops support for the earlier model; the dealers
go out of business; or the only employee that knows anything quits. The
car is then unfixable unless the owner has the service information so he
can fix it himself (or find someone who can do it for him).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
