EV Digest 4469
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Component placement
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: What is the Exide Orbital Deep Cycle part number
by "Ed Koffeman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Rolling Resistance
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Another PFC Caution? (was: PDF-20 design flaw) (long)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Gas Tax Lady Picks on the Wrong Guy...more fun at '05 Gasless on
Greenwood!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Albright contactor
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Rolling Resistance
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rolling Resistance
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Rolling Resistance
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re:JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Rolling Resistance
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Running caps over spec
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Rolling Resistance
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Letting the smoke out , DCP
by "Brian D.Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bolt patterns used to our advantage. Low rolling tires.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Rolling Resistance
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Another PFC Caution? (was: PDF-20 design flaw) (long)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Where are my amp hours?
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Where are my amp hours?
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Another PFC Caution? (was: PDF-20 design flaw) (long)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: JeepEV Drivetrain (was: Re: Oozing Motor?)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another PFC Caution? comments .
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Where are my amp hours?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: BRUSA NLG5xx max voltage
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: things that get on your nerves
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Vas: Re: discontinued Siemens motors
by Seppo Lindborg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
John O'Connor wrote:
When laying out the components for a conversion using flooded
batteries and a Zilla controller is it recommended to put the zilla or
hairball either above or below the top of the batteries, or does it
not matter?
It is always a good idea to keep electrical components below the tops of
the batteries. However the hairball and Zilla are unlikely to produce
sparks so I wouldn't worry about the placement too much. I like
mounting the hairball up under the dash where the mess of wire
connecting to it cannot be seen (concealing its hairballness?) and where
it can be kept dry.
Keep the contactors below the battery tops (since they spark everytime
they are cycled), especially the open Albright contactors.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Dave.
I bought 10 of the Marine (34DC) batteries from www.AutoSupplyUsa.com
because they fit together really nicely, not having the side terminals.
Phone the number and talk to Joe - he gave me a better price on 10 batteries
than what's listed on the web site.
I also was able to pick them up at the local Exide distribution center and
had no shipping cost added to the price.
The only glitch was that I did not have the actual Exide internal invoice
number at first, and they couldn't find the order without it (Dallas
warehouse).
Ed Koffeman
'91 Geo, 9" ADC DMod autocross car
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David (Battery Boy) Hawkins
> Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 12:04 AM
> To: EV Discussion List
> Subject: What is the Exide Orbital Deep Cycle part number
>
> All,
> I finally bolted in the RX-7's new Z1K and fired it up last Friday night,
> after putting in a new clutch pack and a junkyard transmission. The
> controller worked flawlessly, until I took the car to the car wash! I was
> in a hurry to get the car going for our annual Good Old Days parade on
> Saturday morning, and didn't put a cover over the controller and hairball
> and the hairball got wet. I had adjusted the new throttle pot after going
> to the car wash, and at first thought that was the problem, but it wasn't!
> After drying out the hairball the LED indicated it was happy, but it
> wouldn't spin the motor. Finally hooked up a laptop Sunday, and after
> setting it to the defaults the hairball was happy again and my daughter
> WAS
> driving electrically (and not driving the wife's Prius!), until today.
> I've
> been using some YT prototype batteries I bought used years ago and they
> had
> been working fine, but the car had been parked for over a year and a half
> with an occasional maintenance charge, and although we've been doing
> shallow cycles this week, I committed batteryacide. I drove the car to a
> neighboring town and had to limp home. After arriving at home five of the
> batteries were below 12 volts with no load, and some of them were venting,
> with one too hot to touch!
>
> Anyway, I'm going to get some quotes on both YT's and the new Orbitals,
> and
> was wondering if the Orbital part number for the deep cycle battery is
> something like a 34XCD for the extreme, and is the 34DC-36 marine deep
> cycle the same design? I need to decide if I will just replace the worst
> batteries with new ones, which I could probably do since I'm using modular
> chargers, or replace the whole pack and increase the voltage.
> Thanks,
> Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
> http://www.devc.org/
> Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
> Racing Association:
> http://www.nedra.com/
> Lyons, CO
> 1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
> 1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few friends and I were reviewing the performance simulations and noticed
that in a number of models that rolling resistance did not vary with speed -
is this correct?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stuff like this makes an electrical idiot like me just go freakin' nuts.
Most on the list are pretty savvy regarding this stuff. Electrical
understanding allows them to cope with the non-"consumer-grade" hardware we
must necessarily use sometimes. But people like me can run into some
expensive surprises. I have my own story to add (below). (I need to
apologize in advance for posting this just before a long weekend. Responses
will have to wait until my return.)
Let me state clearly that I am very grateful that Rich makes the PFC
chargers. He and Joe have created an extremely flexible, compact and
powerful product at a good price. Rich takes the quality of his product
very personally. This is all a Very Good Thing.
It is also true that his is a small operation that is (almost by definition)
short on resources. That means the product offering could be better in some
ways, but that is certainly not meant to disparage anyone's efforts. Just a
statement of fact that should be understood. The key to making it work is
letting people know the problems and work-arounds.
A good example is isolation. As has been discussed frequently, the PFC
series chargers (except for an as-yet-unreleased model?) are not isolated.
Some see that as a problem, some don't. The important thing is that it is
*known*, so those who see it as a problem can deal with it accordingly. I
have an off-board isolation transformer for use at home. Others deal with
it, or don't, as they see fit.
Bill Dube' wrote:
> >I assumed you knew this [possibility of thermal runaway] about Ni Cads I
do and So does Joe. It was a
> matter
> >of asking.
>
> Lead-acid does exactly the same thing. (Only worse.) During the
> constant-voltage stage, the batteries really get warm. As they warm up,
> the
> voltage goes down. As the voltage goes down, the current goes up. As the
> current goes up, the batteries get REALLY warm. Then, if they get hot
> enough, the voltage dips below the trigger voltage and the timer resets. A
> few hours later, the plastic on the cases will start to melt.
Whether or not Bill "should" have dealt with his NiCds in a certain way is
immaterial to me. I see the very real potential here for a thermal runaway
in my flooded lead-acid pack. Sure, it's a rare occurrence in general, but
*it happens*. And apparently the current PFC chargers will *allow* it to
happen. Sorry Rich, this sounds like an "oops". I have to agree that it is
a design flaw. (I'm a development engineer myself. Trust me, I've
committed my share. It's unavoidable - some will slip through.) Thanks for
recognizing that it needs to be fixed and letting us know it will be.
I happen to like the timer-start-on-constant-voltage feature, so I will
continue to use it and add an external timer to the power cord. That's a
bit of a kludge, but I feel it's necessary to provide the level of
investment protection that's acceptable to me. Make no mistake - if I
toasted a $1500 pack with a thermal runaway when the charger *could* have
easily stopped it and *didn't*, I'd be Very Angry. I can only imagine how
Bill feels about his $10k pack. I have no idea what should have been
assumed or not in his case. Now that I know the issue exists, I can deal
with it.
Now for my personal experience. Since I'm unqualified, I present this here
to let those more knowledgeable than me decide whether it's a flaw. To me,
it at least needs to be made known so others can deal with it.
I (naively) attempted to make a DC/DC converter out of a Vicor BatMod.
Probably a piece of cake for most, but I had problems. (The Vicor modules
are quite good, but need external circuitry to make them a fully-functional
DC/DC converter.) My attempt failed on my car, so I brought it into work to
test and fix. We didn't have a 120 VDC source at work, so I brought in my
PFC-20. The EE who was helping me said it should work fine. (I should
state here that he is quite capable but specializes in instrumentation, not
power electronics.)
We hook it all up and flip the breaker on the PFC, the breaker immediately
snaps off hard. Try again, same thing. EE scratches his head. Work on my
DC/DC stops.
Some time later, I'm charging my pack and the voltage falls back to its
uncharged level. No twiddling of dials or pots will get it to put anything
out, even to a 12V battery. The power stage is dead. A $200 rebuild, plus
$100 for two-way shipping.
My understanding, which may not be clear, is that the PFC chargers are quite
sensitive to being powered with no load. That is not something that is
mentioned in the manuals, and apparently is not something that even an EE
would expect. As one EVDL member mentioned, a disconnected wire or any
fault that blows the output fuse could cause an expensive 2 week repair.
(That was mostly shipping time - Rich turned it around quickly).
Rich and others, for the sake of all please verify that my take on this is
fair, or correct me if necessary. We are all in a sense early-adopters
simply by virtue of being involved with home-built EVs, and must accept the
occasional glitch. The flip side is that we all *need* any information that
is available to avoid unnecessary problems.
I have tremendous respect for Rich, Joe, Otmar and all the others who ride
the bleeding edge of product development. It can be a rough ride. They are
doing a tremendous amount with surprisingly little. Having written my share
of manuals I know how much time good documentation can suck up. I also
think it's absolutely critical that known issues be made known *to all* in
some way, this list being a good start. That's the only way we can turn
this hobby into a transportation paradigm instead of continually tripping
over ourselves.
I think there are few here who would see a discussion of a problem and
work-around as an indication of poor quality. I think it would more likely
be seen as commendably pro-active customer support. So what's the story on
no-load power up?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
So here we were, my wife Cheryl, her sister Sharon and husband Robert, and
myself, sitting
outside at a sidewalk table that was part of a Greek deli, getting ready to
enjoy our
Mediterranean dishes that were to be our lunch break from the hustle-bustle of
this
fantastic car show we were part of, when a nice lady with a clipboard
approached us. She
was very polite, but also very determined to talk with us about Washington
state's goofy
proposed 'special' gas tax, just another one of this state's latest schemes to
dig into
the residents pockets. You can imagine at a car show of this size, how this tax
proposal
was going over. Anyway.....she apologizes for interrupting our lunch, and went
on to tell
us how the gas tax would affect us, how it wasn't a good solution to a problem,
how unfair
it was, etc., etc. Of course, I couldn't resist the temptation.....
EV guy: "Gas tax...you mean, as in taxing the gas that all these cars use?"
Anti-tax lady: "Yes, that's exactly right, they want to restrict our driving
and make it
cost more for us to drive our cars."
EV guy: "Nah, no thanks, I don't care. In fact, they could triple the tax, and
I wouldn't
care. In fact, I hope they really sock it to everyone."
---------------
At this point, Robert is trying his best not top break out in laughter, as he
knows what
I'm up to, knows what a hornet's nest this poor lady has wandered into, and
knows my
routine.....
Anti-tax lady: "Maybe you don't understand how this will impact your driving.
You'll have
to pay a lot more to enjoy your car. Are you a spectator, or do you perhaps
have a car in
this show? Either way, you surely like cars if you're here, right?"
EV guy: "Oh, yes, I do have a car in this show, it's right up there (pointing
up the
street).
Anti-tax lady: "Well then, what are you going to do, the next time you gas it
up, when it
costs a lot more to do so?"
EV guy: "Uh, gee, I don't know...you see, I haven't had to put gas in it since
1980...uh,
let's see, uh, yeah, that's right, it hasn't used 'any ' gas for 2.5 decades
now."
Anti-tax lady (still unfettered by anything I've said so far): "Oh so it's just
a trailer
queen, only for show and doesn't really run."
EV guy: "No, it runs great and I drove it to the show this morning, but it
still didn't
use any gas."
---------------
Robert's about to lose it now, Cheryl is getting that disgusted wife-of-the-EV
nut look,
and even I, am having a hard time keeping a straight face......
Anti-tax lady, still not giving in yet: "Oh, so it's a diesel....you're not off
the hook,
the tax applies to noncommercial diesel, too."
EV guy: "Nope, it aint no stink'n diesel. Nope, non of those fumes from gas, or
diesel."
Anti-tax lady (finally getting worn down): : "I don't get it, why don't you
care about
this?"
EV guy: "Well you see....my car's electric and it runs on clean, American made
electrons,
and in my case, generated by the mighty Columbia River via hydro power. I'm
free of the
bondage to the gas pump, free of middle east oil, and, my car doesn't belch out
fumes like
all these other machines here. So you see, I really could care less about a gas
tax. Ya
know, you really ought to put that stupid clipboard away and come over to see
the Seattle
electric car club's line of nifty electric cars over there."
Robert (who no longer can stay silent): "He's not kidding, he's got a really
cool electric
car, and there's a bunch more up there, even an electric motorcycle. Man, you
picked on
the wrong guy this morning!"
-------------
The anit-gas tax lady was way cool and knew I was just messing with her. I also
confessed
that I had to use gas to tow my car to the show, and, that I was an Oregon
resident not
subject to Washington state's proposed tax. But, we did have a nice chat all
about EVs and
how they could improve things. I also told her about my Honda Insight that gets
up to 92
mpg. She told me I really got her! Oh yeah, she also ended up coming over to
see the EV
display, and, spent a good amount of time talking with everyone seemingly,
really taking
it all in.
What a great opportunity to convert a gasoholic!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jun 30, 2005, at 11:48 AM, Rush wrote:
If I use them in my set up for 180 V, I am basically risking some of
my components if they fail because of overvoltage, correct?
Your main risk is that the contactor will fail to open in a fault
condition. Instead it will weld if the amps are too high when you try
to switch it off. The chances depends on the amps and actual voltage it
finds itself needing to break.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is my recollection that, while it does vary some, for all practical
purposes, rolling resistance is constant with speed.
cheers,
Andrew
Don Cameron wrote:
A few friends and I were reviewing the performance simulations and noticed
that in a number of models that rolling resistance did not vary with speed -
is this correct?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I have a question regarding rolling resistance.
Is the percentage of range gained worth investing in the tires? My vehicle
will probably only go 30-40 miles anyway on a charge and that is
"hopefully". Mostly city driving.
Mark Ward
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rolling Resistance
It is my recollection that, while it does vary some, for all practical
purposes, rolling resistance is constant with speed.
cheers,
Andrew
Don Cameron wrote:
A few friends and I were reviewing the performance simulations and
noticed
that in a number of models that rolling resistance did not vary with
speed -
is this correct?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Ward wrote:
I guess I have a question regarding rolling resistance.
Is the percentage of range gained worth investing in the tires? My
vehicle will probably only go 30-40 miles anyway on a charge and that is
"hopefully". Mostly city driving.
Well, a 10% improvement will equal 4 miles for you; might be the diff
between making it home and roasting the pack sometime
That said I like the Pridgestone Portenzas. The RE92's give the same
range as my old Invictas, and the latest versions actually handle a bit
more weight (looks like a bit over 1050lbs per tire as opposed to 950).
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In the text below, inside somehow got spelled endidee...
>
Rats, I almost figured out what endidee meant.
>
> If the bearing doesn't jump off the shaft, but did move slightly, do it again.
>
To add to Tim's comments;
If the bearing moves a little, tighten the puller again to see if it's loose.
If it just tightens
up but the bearing doesn't come free, then give it another good one. But, if
you whack a loose
puller, it's not going to do much. You may have to work it off a bit before it
finally comes off.
Also, always make sure the center shaft of the puller is staying inline with
the motor shaft. As
you really tighten things up, pieces can shift and the puller may get off
center. If you whack it
when it's crooked, it would quickly remove the puller from the part. @#$%^& Set
it all up again.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark, please start another thread for your question. The original question
for this thread is:
"Does rolling resistance vary with speed?"
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: July 1, 2005 8:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Rolling Resistance
I guess I have a question regarding rolling resistance.
Is the percentage of range gained worth investing in the tires? My vehicle
will probably only go 30-40 miles anyway on a charge and that is
"hopefully". Mostly city driving.
Mark Ward
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Rolling Resistance
> It is my recollection that, while it does vary some, for all practical
> purposes, rolling resistance is constant with speed.
> cheers,
> Andrew
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
>
>>A few friends and I were reviewing the performance simulations and
>>noticed
>>that in a number of models that rolling resistance did not vary with
>>speed -
>>is this correct?
>>
>> thanks
>>Don
>> Victoria, BC, Canada
>> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of my fondest memories of High School Electronics class was the day a
couple of kids where charging a largish electolytic capacitor then tossing
it to people who got a nice bite when they caught it out of instinct. They
were just charging it straight from the line voltage and charged it too
long. KaPow... The air was filled with confetti and the whole mechanics
class next door had their noses pressed to the very large window separating
the two shops...
Now that's what I call learning!
damon
And the smell of a popped electrolytic capacitor is very distinctively
foul!
It lingers in your lab for days or weeks letting every know you did
something wrong.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW here is a utility one can use for calculating rolling resistance and
aero Cd based on imperical measurements.
http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage2/Other/Utilities/Utilities.htm
Also has a gearing calculator.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: July 1, 2005 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Rolling Resistance
A few friends and I were reviewing the performance simulations and noticed
that in a number of models that rolling resistance did not vary with speed -
is this correct?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a short note of Warning to folks that are working with the new owner of
DCP, He gives no warranty for his work. I sent him a working t-rex belonging
to a customer that had a ground fault through the precharge circuit,
returning the unit for over double the quoted price it still had the same
problem. He then stated that it was normal and Okay to use. It only lasted
about 5 miles , glad no one was hurt , I have had these go full on when they
blow. Customer now has his EV grin back with a Zilla 1K.
Brian D. Hall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > Check out this pic of the older VW Bug 175R15 tire on a 3.5" wheel:
> >
> > http://img2.uploadimages.net/702326red.jpg (narrow tire looks huge for
> > some reason!)
>
> This link didn't work. LR.......Thanks......
Odd, as it worked yesterday(doesn't now..).
Try one of these:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/4999/red1px.jpg
http://img2.uploadimages.net/352817red.jpg
http://tinypic.com/6jnh9c.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did coastdowns on my cars, and fit to constant (rolling
resistance), linear, square (aero drag), and cube terms. The linear
and cube terms were very small. This validated using just constant
and square in velocity terms is accurate.
If you use the calculator below, be sure to do several runs in 2
directions and average. A single coast-down is error prone.
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A few friends and I were reviewing the performance simulations and
> noticed
> that in a number of models that rolling resistance did not vary
> with speed -
> is this correct?
>
> FWIW here is a utility one can use for calculating rolling
> resistance and
> aero Cd based on imperical measurements.
> >
http://www.race-technology.com/WebPage2/Other/Utilities/Utilities.htm
>
> Also has a gearing calculator.
____________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
> My understanding, which may not be clear, is that the PFC chargers are quite
> sensitive to being powered with no load.
Are you saying if I plug in the charger and turn it on without it
being connected to anything, it will blow the power stage?
>That is not something that is mentioned in the manuals, and
apparently is not >something that even an EE would expect.
It needs to be for at least two reasons: Someone might plug it in and
turn it on just to see if the charger works.. Someone might power it
up without it being connected to the battery pack to adjust the
settings beforehand..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll have to still try the comparison when I have time. But here is some
more info on strange behavior.
When the bike is off i.e. controller key off, the emeter reads +.3A, as soon
as I apply power to the controller key (control pin 1 on my Alltrax) then it
reads 0.0 amps like it should. I don't think there is a way to calibrate
the meter and I can't explain why this is happening.
When sitting or charging, the emeter reads a steady voltage. When I am
driving, the voltage will jump around a lot. Sounds normal right, well the
weird thing is that it will mainly hover around the nominal voltage (72v)
but will frequently (every couple seconds) jump up in the 80s and 90s as
high as 97 volts. I don't understand this at all either. There shouldn't
be that much potential voltage there at anytime.
Today I rode into work for the first time (15 miles) it did ok, but
acceleration was slower at near the end of the trip. The amphour meter read
9.0. I stuck mainly to 35 mph roads will couple miles at 55mph. That comes
out to 43 watt hours/ mile. I don't know it that sounds reasonable or not.
Something is screwy with my emeter or my batteries and I am not sure which
it is yet...
If I find that I am getting way under what the batteries are rated at,
should I go back to the battery store and complain?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
-Garret Maki
Broomfield, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where are my amp hours?
Check the calibration of the meter. Put the battery on charge or discharge
at a fixed current and measure the current with another method (example:
calibrated clamp on ammeter) and verify both meters read the same current.
Check the zero setting on your meter. Make sure it reads zero when the
batteries are not being either charged or discharged.
Do a capacity check on the batteries by timing a discharge with a known
fixed load. You may find out the batteries have only 17 AHr of capacity.
If I recall correctly, the Peukert number should be about 1.35.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 10:41 AM
Subject: Where are my amp hours?
> Hi all,
>
> I built my first conversion this spring. It is a motorcycle.
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html
> <http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html>
>
> I am using new Trojan SCS150 flooded batteries rated at 100AH C20 rate. I
> have an e-meter installed. I had the amp hour set on the emeter set for
> 100AH and the perkerts exponent set conservatively at .35. I rode it and
> the 4 fuel gauge leds at the top never came off full charge and the
> batteries ran down to pretty much empty.
>
>
>
> Then I set the emeter down to 80AH.
>
>
>
> I have never go the emeter to read more than 17 AH used and the batteries
> are flat. I have an Alltrax 450 amp controller and I never see more than
> 170 peak battery amps draw.
>
>
>
> I don't get it. Where is all my energy going. I don't know if the
> batteries aren't putting out the AH they are supposed to or if the emeter
> isn't working correctly. I am not sure how to troubleshoot from here.
>
>
>
> I am frustrated. Any advice?
>
>
>
> Garret
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stephen,
Certainly come and see and ride it.
I don't have your email address.
Please write me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] letting me know when you would
like to.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paschke, Stephen
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 12:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Where are my amp hours?
Garret, I would like to see your bike sometime this summer. I live in
Thornton. I am in the planning stages of an '87 Cabriolet. I am going to
start disassembly in a month or two.
> Stephen Paschke
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> Office 303-607-2993
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Maki, Garret
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Where are my amp hours?
Hi all,
I built my first conversion this spring. It is a motorcycle.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html>
I am using new Trojan SCS150 flooded batteries rated at 100AH C20 rate. I
have an e-meter installed. I had the amp hour set on the emeter set for
100AH and the perkerts exponent set conservatively at .35. I rode it and
the 4 fuel gauge leds at the top never came off full charge and the
batteries ran down to pretty much empty.
Then I set the emeter down to 80AH.
I have never go the emeter to read more than 17 AH used and the batteries
are flat. I have an Alltrax 450 amp controller and I never see more than
170 peak battery amps draw.
I don't get it. Where is all my energy going. I don't know if the
batteries aren't putting out the AH they are supposed to or if the emeter
isn't working correctly. I am not sure how to troubleshoot from here.
I am frustrated. Any advice?
Garret
**************************************************************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information
intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If
you are not the intended recipient, please contact sender immediately by
reply e-mail and destroy all copies. You are hereby notified that any
disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or the taking of any
action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
TIAA-CREF
**************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have tremendous respect for Rich, Joe, Otmar and all the others who ride
> the bleeding edge of product development. It can be a rough ride. They
> are
> doing a tremendous amount with surprisingly little. Having written my
> share
> of manuals I know how much time good documentation can suck up. I also
> think it's absolutely critical that known issues be made known *to all* in
> some way, this list being a good start. That's the only way we can turn
> this hobby into a transportation paradigm instead of continually tripping
> over ourselves.
>
> I think there are few here who would see a discussion of a problem and
> work-around as an indication of poor quality. I think it would more
> likely
> be seen as commendably pro-active customer support. So what's the story
> on
> no-load power up?
>
> Chris
Yes, the first run of RUSSCO power factor corrected chargers could, under
just the right circumstances, blow the power stage if no battery load were
connected. The replacement cost was covered under warranty, and only cost
about $4 for parts plus $50 labor out of warranty.
It took considerable thinking over a long period of time to come up with
an electronic solution that completely eliminated any charger malfunction
with no battery load. With a very small operation, good work takes time.
On another topic, the RUSSCO Three Stage Charger, which should be used for
sealed batteries, latches the shut off timer on decreasing current/rising
voltage. Once the timer is started, any change of the current or voltage
has on effect on the timer.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
The Other PFC Charger With GFCI
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Tim Humphrey wrote:
Method 2. Build up two stands that are slightly taller than the
length of the armature from the endidee face of the endbell to the
tailshaft. You'll see what I mean in a minute.
Tim Humphrey wrote:
In the text below, inside somehow got spelled endidee...
Dave Cover wrote:
Rats, I almost figured out what endidee meant.
LOL... He did say it would take a minute to figure out!
Anyways, thanks for the feedback guys. I'm going to go see what I can do
about this bearing...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 12:59 PM
> Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> > My understanding, which may not be clear, is that the PFC chargers are
quite
> > sensitive to being powered with no load.
>
> Are you saying if I plug in the charger and turn it on without it
> being connected to anything, it will blow the power stage?
> Hi EVerybody;
EAAAH! I regulary unplug my pfc20 while turned on AFTER car is charged.
Am I doing a serious BAD? Have plugged it back into the car after a quick,
I'll -be- right- back store run, without turning it off. I'm using it as a
Bench charger for now, not built in yet.
Now if we could do something about radio and TV interfierance, the damn
hum, EVen on FM and streeks across the lower TV channels, like 2 and 3.Guess
you should hook the thing up to a timer to shut it off after about what you
think you'll need, charge wise. I'm really pleased and amazed how quickly it
brings the car up after a RT to work.
Seeya
Bob>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Garret,
I can't tell you what is going on with your e-meter, but it does not sound
like it is working correctly. As you know since you have ridden it, I also
have an electric motorcycle. Don't get to hung up on ahr ratings of your
lead, since you are not using it in any manner similar to how they are
rated. Simply focus on the weight. On my bike with 200lbs of lead I was
only good for around 10 miles. Extrapolate that number out to the weight of
your pack and you should have a good ball park number for whether you are
getting what you can expect to get. Sounds to me like you probably are.
The good news on electric motorcycles is that they are much less complicated
than cars and much cheaper to build. The bad news is that they are very
difficult to get much range out of especially if you are using lead acid
batteries.
damon
BTW - my 156lbs of BB600s is enough to get me 17 miles to John Wayland's
house with over half of that being at freeway speeds. Woohoo! I tried it
out two weeks ago and had no problem getting there. This is good news for
me as it means I can bring the bike anytime there are significant EVents
happening at the Wayland household.
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Where are my amp hours?
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:23:43 -0500
I'll have to still try the comparison when I have time. But here is some
more info on strange behavior.
When the bike is off i.e. controller key off, the emeter reads +.3A, as
soon
as I apply power to the controller key (control pin 1 on my Alltrax) then
it
reads 0.0 amps like it should. I don't think there is a way to calibrate
the meter and I can't explain why this is happening.
When sitting or charging, the emeter reads a steady voltage. When I am
driving, the voltage will jump around a lot. Sounds normal right, well the
weird thing is that it will mainly hover around the nominal voltage (72v)
but will frequently (every couple seconds) jump up in the 80s and 90s as
high as 97 volts. I don't understand this at all either. There shouldn't
be that much potential voltage there at anytime.
Today I rode into work for the first time (15 miles) it did ok, but
acceleration was slower at near the end of the trip. The amphour meter
read
9.0. I stuck mainly to 35 mph roads will couple miles at 55mph. That
comes
out to 43 watt hours/ mile. I don't know it that sounds reasonable or not.
Something is screwy with my emeter or my batteries and I am not sure which
it is yet...
If I find that I am getting way under what the batteries are rated at,
should I go back to the battery store and complain?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
-Garret Maki
Broomfield, CO
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 1:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Where are my amp hours?
Check the calibration of the meter. Put the battery on charge or discharge
at a fixed current and measure the current with another method (example:
calibrated clamp on ammeter) and verify both meters read the same current.
Check the zero setting on your meter. Make sure it reads zero when the
batteries are not being either charged or discharged.
Do a capacity check on the batteries by timing a discharge with a known
fixed load. You may find out the batteries have only 17 AHr of capacity.
If I recall correctly, the Peukert number should be about 1.35.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 10:41 AM
Subject: Where are my amp hours?
> Hi all,
>
> I built my first conversion this spring. It is a motorcycle.
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html
> <http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/newsubmissions/maki_.html>
>
> I am using new Trojan SCS150 flooded batteries rated at 100AH C20 rate.
I
> have an e-meter installed. I had the amp hour set on the emeter set for
> 100AH and the perkerts exponent set conservatively at .35. I rode it
and
> the 4 fuel gauge leds at the top never came off full charge and the
> batteries ran down to pretty much empty.
>
>
>
> Then I set the emeter down to 80AH.
>
>
>
> I have never go the emeter to read more than 17 AH used and the
batteries
> are flat. I have an Alltrax 450 amp controller and I never see more
than
> 170 peak battery amps draw.
>
>
>
> I don't get it. Where is all my energy going. I don't know if the
> batteries aren't putting out the AH they are supposed to or if the
emeter
> isn't working correctly. I am not sure how to troubleshoot from here.
>
>
>
> I am frustrated. Any advice?
>
>
>
> Garret
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Don already answered you, it's 720V max. I wanted to add that since
the voltages overlap, it makes sense to pick the lowest voltage
model covering your needs but not higher. The current output will
be higher (since the power is the same for any model.
My bad. My appologies. I had just been looking at the Zivan chargers and got
confused betwen the
NG5 and the NLG5. (Any reason why they have almost the same model numbers?)
NG or NLG stands for "charging equipment" in German, it is generic
for this type of gear, not the model. I don't speak German so cannot
quote you.
I'm still newbie
enough to forget to go to MetricMind fiirst for all the info I need.
No problem, the info is what this list is for. Keep asking!
Unfortunately, I can't afford a Brusa. No matter how much you try to
rationalize the quality,
longevity, etcetera, etcetera.
I stopped rationalizing a long time ago - BRUSA hardware is not
meant for vast majority of people this list is comprised of. No point
of marketing it here
But on my next car, the Beetle conversion for my wife, I'm going to
try like @#$%^ to use an AC system with regen and all those nice features.
Same here - everyone knows advantages (and disadvantages) of
AC systems, but I don't push any. No one has bought a system
just because I'd insist it is "better".
Don's as good a salesman for your components as anyone.
I guess, he is just one more very happy customer and wishes
others to experience the same.
Does he get a commission?
Purely volunteer effort on his part :-D
Dave Cover
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes
Victor
Jon wrote:
Sorry, I'm a little new here... your website is www.metricmind.com, right?
thanks,
Jon Davis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Lähettäjä: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Päivä: 30.06.2005 20:44
> Vastaanottaja: [email protected]
> Otsikko: Re: discontinued Siemens motors
Hello Victor
>
> Charles Whalen wrote:
> > Victor (and all),
> ...
> > But my application
> > is quite different. I am designing a long-range (220+ miles) highway
> > cruiser, so my preference is to optimize more towards higher speed highway
> > driving.
>
> IF you also want very zippy performance, you're better off
> staying with at least 2 speed transmission.
> This means you wouldn't want to use MES gear box. Single gear
> is OK for up to about 60-70 km/h common in Europe.
My mathematics gives for MES motor (9000 rpm max) and Carraro gear box: 115
km/h = 71 mph top speed (depends on tire size, as you said).
>
> I can use single (2nd) gear only in ACRX, but find using first
> in some situations is preferred(see faq on my site).
>
> There is no need to limit the motor to 5600 RPM, but using it
> at 9000 RPM and only first gear is not a good idea either, because
> of very high losses in the gear box - it will get real hot (aside
> the flywheel problem which are solvable with small aluminum one).
I take it that it is ACRX specific, or ICE gearbox-related. I drive a Peugeot
Partner Electrique (you have certainly driven Jukka's similar Berlingo). It has
a single-speed gearbox. I think the EV gearboxes have different design
parameters so it is OK to drive continuously at high speed.
Peugeot has top speed of appr 100 km/h and accelerates OK in town speeds, like
a normal ICE car. No rocket but adequate for daily commuting. And single-speed
gearbox does not exclude even sports car performance, Tzero has a single-speed
gearbox.
Seppo
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
