EV Digest 4480
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) How about a turbine engine for your Hybrid?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: How about a turbine engine for your Hybrid?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
by "Chris Seeley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) TEVan and EPIC
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What does the Prius use as the power divider?
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV Book on Ebay
by Daniel Grambihler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Dual Motors and Single Transmissions
by justin vandeusen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thermal runaway (was: RE: Another PFC Caution?)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: What does the Prius use as the power divider?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for engine, Generator
Eff ...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Honda Hybrid E motor pics., Re: What does the Prius use as the power
divider?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What does the Prius use as the power divider?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Thermal runaway (was: RE: Another PFC Caution?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Another PFC Caution? (was: PDF-20 design flaw) (long)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Thunder-Sky Straps
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Honda Hybrid E motor pics., Re: What does the Prius use as the power
divider?
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Thunder-Sky Straps
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: List Meta Request
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for engine, Generator
Eff ...
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
See http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4560021689
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7/6/05, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> See http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4560021689
Cool!
here's a page which mentions it was used with a 25kW generator.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/gas/gtp30.htm
I wonder what the emissions are like :)
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Netgain Warp 9 Impulse will fit in that particular vehicle. I have a
similar problem, could force a 9" in, but my power accessories would not fit
where they used to any longer. In my case my motor block is 16 inches long,
about the same as the Impulse. It is a good compromise.
Mark Ward
"ElectroSaab"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Sullivan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
I was in the scrap yard a couple weeks ago measuring the space in a Mazda
323, I
believe they are the same up front, I think you will have trouble getting
a 9"
motor between the tranny and frame rail, you have 21 inchs to work with
from
bell housing to the inside edge of the frame rail. If you like I can send
you
the over all engine and hatch measurements from a three door '90 323.
Quoting Chris Seeley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
Hi list,
I have been offered a 92 Mazda Protégé. The price is right (free). It's
been parked for several years, and it did run when it was parked. It
needed
a water pump, at the time. The code enforcer has given him till this
weekend to get it off of his property, so either I get it or the local
bone
yard does. The body is in excellent shape. I didn't try to start it, as
I
don't care if it runs, but the clutch is stuck. What do you folks
think....
Is this a god car to do? Have any of you converted one?
Best
Chris Seeley
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 7/6/2005 6:29:55 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< What do you folks think....
Is this a god car to do? >>
I'd like to echo the other responses and add this:
Make sure to sit in the car for a time to see if it is comfortable and 'fits'
you. Take your time. If it doesnt feel *good* pick a different car.
Several years ago we converted a Porche, and when I got in for the first
drive, I found it to be way uncomfortable... ended up dismantling the car.
(doh!)
Good luck,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don and all,
It's not so much that it's free. I know the car, if you know what I mean?
Basically the car belongs to a coworker / friend. Basically it had a lot of
miles on it so he bought a new car. They wouldn't give him much for a
trade-in, so he kept it. His daughter drove it back and forth to college
for 2 years after that, and it started to overheat (the water-pump). He is
the type that doesn't turn wrenches! If it's not right it goes to the
mechanic. I offered to buy the car from him a year ago, when his daughter
got a new car, and he decided to keep it, as his niece was coming to driving
age. The car has now been sitting there for a little more than a year, and
not registered. The code enforcement officer gave him a 30 day notice for
having an unregistered vehicle on his property. His 30 days is about up,
and his niece has not made any effort to get it. So he was planning on just
calling the local bone yard, to take it. He told me that if I wanted it,
that I could have it as long as It's out by this weekend, as the junk yard
will take it on Monday! So it's an opportunity to get started without much
money at stake!
As far as cars I like, well I don't know if there is such a thing.... I
consider a car, a machine!! It basically gets me where I need to go (back
and forth to work). I am a big fan of electricity, so if it can power the
machine great. I hate the stink of exhaust, I hate the noise, and I like
the great outdoors, so an EV would be a fun project to build, but I would be
looking to build a machine for the commute, not a fun ride! Maybe thats
not the best attitude, but thats what I got! Maybe after the "commute
machine" is finished, I'll start on the fun ride!.....I would much rather
drive a 4x4 like a jeep wrangler where the roads are not my boundaries, or a
heavy truck to pull my camper for a week of vacation, but I'm not sure that
these would be good EV choices.
Thanks for all the comments.
Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:34 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
>
> Chris, sounds exciting.
>
> Try not to get distracted by the price or the opportunity. Pick a car
> that
> you really like, because you will be spending a lot of time working on it,
> putting a lot of cash into it, and then a lot of time driving it. Make
> sure
> everything else works: electrical, brakes, suspension, etc. Last thing you
> need is to put a bunch of cash into the car converting it, then find that
> it
> needs a brake job, and some shocks and the lights don't work, etc.
>
> I am sceptical, if all it has is a broken $40 water pump, I do not see
> much
> reason for the owner to abandon it. Maybe the motor is busted - maybe
> more
> things are broken as well.
>
> What kind of car do you like? What do you think would make a great
> electric
> car? What kind of a car are you willing to spend $5000-10000 converting?
> Maybe a sporty RX7 or a Civic. Maybe a classic VW Bug or a Datsun 510.
> Maybe a nice sedan. Whatever it is, pick the car you like, don't let the
> car pick you. It happens to be a 323, then so be it. But what I hear in
> your message is opportunity, cheap price and "its gotta be done right
> away".
>
> Once you have a car in mind, go and search for it. Find one that has good
> interior, body, electrical and other parts.
>
>
> Don
>
> P.S. If you live near me, I have an 85 RX7 flyer you can have for free.
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chris Seeley
> Sent: July 6, 2005 6:29 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: I'm getting closer! (found a donor car) Comments?
>
> Hi list,
>
> I have been offered a 92 Mazda Protégé. The price is right (free). It's
> been parked for several years, and it did run when it was parked. It
> needed
> a water pump, at the time. The code enforcer has given him till this
> weekend to get it off of his property, so either I get it or the local
> bone
> yard does. The body is in excellent shape. I didn't try to start it, as
> I
> don't care if it runs, but the clutch is stuck. What do you folks
> think....
> Is this a god car to do? Have any of you converted one?
>
> Best
>
> Chris Seeley
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower (and other chrysler/TEVan experts),
Are there any special things that you need to do to
get the charger on the stock TEVan to come on ? Any
interlock circuits ? minimum pack voltage ?
anyone know the answer to the same question for the
epic minivans ?
I am trying to get an epic van started but the charger
won't come on. It seems like the charger may be
looking for one or more of the following to happen
before starting charge :
-some minimum pack voltage ?
-AC compressor ON (for battery cooling) and charged
-Battery coolant circulation pump on
-Battery ventilation fan on (12v)
-other interlocks ?
does anyone know what the charger logic is ? If it
helps, I am using the offboard Lockheed charger.
If not, what is a safe charge algorithm to use for
this pack if I just want to get a small charge into
the pack, using a power supply (without any BMS or
temperature monitoring or anything). The nominal pack
voltage is 336 V, and the batteries are SAFT NIMH
modules.
I know there aren't a lot of these vans out there
anymore, but can anyone offer some advice ?
thanks
~Fortunat
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are many websites with detailed descriptions of
it. To visualize it, look at the following 2 websites
with interactive animations.
http://homepage.mac.com/inachan/prius/planet_e.html
http://www.wind.sannet.ne.jp/m_matsu/prius/ThsSimu/index_i18n.html?Language=en?Country=US
Ed Ang
--- Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Anyone know the details of how the engine and the
> motor are connected to the
> driveline?
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, 110 pounds of batteries? What is their Ah
> rating?
>
>
>
>
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 06:08:14 -0700 (PDT)
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
> Just so some of you know certain GE motors can run me over $20.00
> per brush and that's X 4.
I just replaced the brushes in my GE sepex. Four pair (eight brushes in
all). I think it all ran about $130 or so.
Runs a lot better without those rivets dancing on the commutator:^O
Marv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Multiple listings also available via ABE:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=michael+hackleman&bsi=3
0
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 3:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV Book on Ebay
Old time EV building book for sale on Ebay:
Item Number: 7984556279
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello EV'ers!
Finally got back to list and have been enjoying
reading the posts that I missed while I was away. This
leads me to a question I have thought about alot
during that time: Has anyone used a dual motor single
transmission setup? If so:
1. How difficult was it to setup?
2. Are there more problems with mechanical wear and
tear with a dual setup?
3. Is this a common technology on EVs and hybrids?
Any information regarding this subject would be
greatly appreciated! Thanks your time!
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
> Aw c'mon Rich, think of these as teachable moments. ;^)
I agree! Every charger works under best-case conditions. It's the
worst-case conditions that separate the good chargers from the bad ones.
What does it do when someting goes wrong -- detect the problem and stop,
or ignore the problem and make it worse?
> Question 1: Why couldn't I find any info on how the charger
> affects the cycle?
Because the phenomenon is old, and the web is young. Nobody has bothered
to write about it. Those that do probably know very little about it.
Lots of hearsay and ignorance. "Fools write in where wise men fear to be
read."
Officially, thermal runaway is when the temperature is rising. You can
stop it by any means that prevents or limits this temperature rise.
These include:
- limiting the charging voltage
- limiting the charging current
- limiting the charging time
- sensing battery temperature
- turn off the charger
- cool the batteries
> But what's the probability of a thermal runaway during bulk charge?
It won't happen with a good battery and a normal charge rate at normal
temperatures.
But it the battery goes bad (say, a shorted cell), or you are charging
at a high rate, or the battery temperature is too high, thermal runaway
can begin when the charger is in bulk charge mode.
> If it happens in the constant voltage phase, can the pack voltage
> drop to the point where the timer resets?
By definition, "constant voltage phase" means the charger does whatever
it takes to maintain the same voltage. Normally, the battery is not at
full charge. So, the current is falling as the battery appraches full
charge.
But if the battery is already fully charged and you apply a constant
voltage, then 100% of the energy going in is going up as heating and
gassing. The heating part causes the current to RISE over time.
How fast it rises depends. Is the current high, or low to begin with? Is
the battery well insulated, or does it have lots of air cooling?
> Question 2: What advantage is realized by allowing the timer to
> unlatch if the voltage drops? Who are these 40% of your installed
> base?
Good question! Rich?
> Question 3 (the big one for me): Since thermal runaway is an
> unlikely but very expensive possibility, what is the best way
> for me to prevent it in my 120 V flooded lead-acid pack? Will
> the time-from-constant-voltage timer on my PFC-20 suffice, or
> do I need a separate timer in the charger line cord?
The time-from-constant-voltage timer is ok for NORMAL charging, but it
won't save you if anything goes wrong (bad cell, hot batteries, trying
to charge too fast).
The simplest solution is to sense battery temperature, and shut down the
charger NOW if they get too hot. But batteries take so long to heat up
that your sensor will be late -- by the time an external sensor on a
sealed battery detects (say) 120 deg.F, the battery's internal
temperature could be past 140 deg.F.
You can beat this problem on your floodeds by putting the temperature
probe inside a cell -- but which one? Murphy's law says the one that
runs away will be the one you weren't monitoring.
Detecting temperature rate-of-rise is better, especially with nicads and
other nickel-based chemistries. But it is harder to do, and has the same
problem of which cell(s) do you measure.
You could sense cell pressures, or gas production rates, but these are
also problematic with many cells scattered throughout a vehicle.
Charger manufacturers naturally want to do it all with the charger
itself. This is always doomed to be less than perfect, but it is easier.
The usual strategy is to have the charger watch the charging voltage and
current over time, and recognize when things are proceeding normally or
going astray. When the battery is too hot and running away, the current
will be too high for too long, and may actually increase when it should
be falling.
Many industrial chargers use the dv/dt or di/dt algorithms. dv/dt means
the "rate of change in voltage over time". If you apply a constant
charging current, the voltage should rise while the battery is charging
(dv/dt is positive). When the voltage starts to FALL (dv/dt goes
negative), the battery is full and the charger shuts off.
Likewise, if you apply a constant voltage, the current should fall as
the battery charges (di/dt negative). If the current starts to rise
(di/dt positive), the battery is full and the charger shuts off.
But these have drawbacks too. Suppose you are using di/dt. While your EV
is charging, you open the car door and turn on the radio for some tunes.
The 12v battery is now under load, so the DC/DC converter draws more
current from the propulsion battery. The charger sees this as an
increasing charge current (di/dt went positive) and so turns off too
early.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> Anyone know the details of how the engine and the motor are
> connected to the driveline?
It has what amounts to a second differential to connect the ICE to two
electric motors. Like this (view with fixed-width font):
second
_____ differential _______
| | __ | |
| ICE |=====( )====|motor#1|
|_____| || |_______|
___||___
| |
| motor#2|
__ |________| __
| | || | |
| | || | |
| |========(__)========| |
| | normal | |
|__| differential |__|
front front
tire tire
If you run just motor#2, you have a normal electric-only EV. If the ICE
is stopped, then differential action in the second differential forces
motor#1 to spin at TWICE the rpm. Motor#1 just freewheels; if you had
any current in it, it would have torque, which would make the ICE have
torque as well.
If you run just the ICE and the car is stopped, then motor#2 is not
turning. Motor#1 thus turns at the full speed of the ICE but in the
opposite direction (just like a normal car differential; jack up the
wheels, and turn one forward; the other wheel turns backwards).
To make the car go, you use motor#1 as a generator. This slows it down,
which forces motor#2 to start turning. The generated power from motor#1
either chargers the batteries, or adds to the power to turn motor#2.
With the ICE and 2 motors, there are lots of possibilities -- and Toyota
using most of them! It's a clever setup.
> Also, 110 pounds of batteries? What is their Ah rating?
274 volts at 6.5 amphours (at least for my 2001 Prius).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bradley GTII built off of a 71 beetle chassis....
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What kind of car was it in?
>
> David C Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> "The Bush administration's priorities are "a little
> bit different now
> and veterans aren't a priority,"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
>
>
> > the brushes look fine and I have an extra set... I
> > doubt there is many miles on it. the motor was new
> > when installed in 82 and the odometer is currently
> at
> > 15 mi....
> >
> > Brian B.
> >
> > --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> brian baumel wrote:
> >>
> >> >The motor runs great,
> >>
> >> The bearings are more then likely fine then. Is
> >> there anyway you can
> >> get access to the brushes to see how much wear
> they
> >> might have?
> >>
> >> Even though it's 20 years old, it might very well
> >> not even have more
> >> then a few hundred miles on it(if that)?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________
> > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great
> items.
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jul 2005 at 4:44, jerry dycus wrote:
> Those are MINIMIUM standards, most do much
> better than that.
Jerry, I have a lot of respect for you, but I'd like to see some evidence
for that statement.
The automakers have seldom put effort into exceeding the EPA emissions
requirements, so I'm skeptical that any outdoor equipment manufacturer would
go very far into that arena. The average consumer wouldn't much care, and
would be unwilling to pay the additional cost. I could be wrong of course;
there are a few who sometimes advertise that their engines are cleaner than
average (Honda comes to mind).
Outdoor power equipment is certainly cleaner than it used to be, but AFAIK,
NO ONE's emission control equipment is anywhere near as sophisticated as
even mid-1990s automotive emission control hardware.
Also keep in mind that some of the standards I cited don't go into effect
until 2006. The current and older outdoor and industrial engines EV
hobbyists are likely to use for RE will be significantly dirtier.
With all due respect, Jerry - and I have a lot of it for you - I STRONGLY
disagree with your ideas for small-engine range extenders. I think the
hobbyist or small production builder who wants to include an efficient and
clean range extender will be best served by using a recent automobile engine
and maintaining its supporting EC systems.
Better yet, leave the EV at home, and drive a well-maintained, newer ICE for
the long trips.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and All,
Today in the Tampa tribune and the
St. Pete Times in the business sections, had great
pics of the new improved Honda Hybrid e motor on the
engine where the flywheel would be, real detailed.
I want one!! Not the Honda but just the E
motor!!
Check your local paper and maybe they have it
too. The St Pete Times had a bigger, better
diffinition version. Maybe someone could put up a URL
for it, AP I think.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Stu or Jan wrote:
> > Anyone know the details of how the engine and the
> motor are
> > connected to the driveline?
>
> It has what amounts to a second differential to
> connect the ICE to two
> electric motors. Like this (view with fixed-width
> font):
>
> second
> _____ differential _______
> | | __ | |
> | ICE |=====( )====|motor#1|
> |_____| || |_______|
> ___||___
> | |
> | motor#2|
> __ |________| __
> | | || | |
> | | || | |
> | |========(__)========| |
> | | normal | |
> |__| differential |__|
> front front
> tire tire
>
> If you run just motor#2, you have a normal
> electric-only EV. If the ICE
> is stopped, then differential action in the second
> differential forces
> motor#1 to spin at TWICE the rpm. Motor#1 just
> freewheels; if you had
> any current in it, it would have torque, which would
> make the ICE have
> torque as well.
>
> If you run just the ICE and the car is stopped, then
> motor#2 is not
> turning. Motor#1 thus turns at the full speed of the
> ICE but in the
> opposite direction (just like a normal car
> differential; jack up the
> wheels, and turn one forward; the other wheel turns
> backwards).
>
> To make the car go, you use motor#1 as a generator.
> This slows it down,
> which forces motor#2 to start turning. The generated
> power from motor#1
> either chargers the batteries, or adds to the power
> to turn motor#2.
>
> With the ICE and 2 motors, there are lots of
> possibilities -- and Toyota
> using most of them! It's a clever setup.
>
> > Also, 110 pounds of batteries? What is their Ah
> rating?
>
> 274 volts at 6.5 amphours (at least for my 2001
> Prius).
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 6, 2005, at 6:16 AM, Stu or Jan wrote:
Anyone know the details of how the engine and the motor are connected
to the
driveline?
A single planetary gear set with a 30 tooth sun gear, 23 tooth planet
gears, and a 78 tooth annular gear. The ICE connects to the planet gear
carrier, the smaller motor/generator connects to the sun gear, and the
annular gear connects with a chain drive to the final drive and the
larger motor generator (and a park cog.) The final drive ratio is 3.905
to 1.
This relationship means that about 72% of the ICEs applied torque goes
through the annular gear to the output. It also means that you can just
use MG2 (the larger motor/generator) to operate the vehicle without the
ICE running - but only up to 42mph because at that point MG1 will hit
its 6500rpm redline. "Overdrive" is obtained by using MG2 as a
generator and feeding the power to MG1 (it seems to like 1700rpm at
60mph.) Reverse is electric only using MG2 (no reverse gear.)
MG1 acts as the engine starter, and a DC to DC converter from the motor
battery pack replaces the alternator (no conventional starter or
alternator.) The new Prius completely ditched the fan belt, with an
electric motor powered AC system and water pump.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 5:35 AM
Subject: Thermal runaway (was: RE: Another PFC Caution?)
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > And yet it begins for another week.
>
> Aw c'mon Rich, think of these as teachable moments. ;^)
>
> At this point I, and probably others, am having a difficult time
> understanding some subtleties here. While I feel for Bill and his wounded
> NiCd pack, in the grand scheme of things we need to keep this discussion
> focused on lead.
>
> I did some surfing last night to try to understand the mechanics of
thermal
> runaway. I didn't have much luck. I get the basics - batteries heat up,
> resistance drops, current rises, batteries heat up more, repeat until
> meltdown.
>
> Question 1: What I couldn't find any info on is how the charger affects
the
> cycle. If you're in runaway before you hit constant voltage, the
> timer-on-constant-voltage will obviously do you no good. But what's the
> probability of a thermal runaway during bulk charge? If it happens in the
> constant voltage phase, can the pack voltage drop to the point where the
> timer resets? It apparently did on Bill's pack, is it possible with lead?
Most certianly if you have your peak voltage set too high. This is the
key... All batteries will if you drive them to too high a voltage. They do
it even faster if you hold them at high voltages for long times.
So Yea you can drive PbLa to run a way.
I had a guy do it last week, a Set of gells, In a Bilge at 110 Def F or
higher, and he had the charger set to 15.6 volts pre 12 volt block. They
ran it really hard brought it back drained, and charged it for all they
could.... Hot stinky batteries in the morning..... Oopps! This is one reason
why I ship Regs set to 14.8, this gets the job done, and still has some over
head for thermal issues.
One of the problems with setting Regs to terminate the charge, is weather. a
110 Deg battery on a August day in Phoenix is just about all you can cool
them to. 110 Deg in Seattle in December is a really serious thermal run a
way. So the operator has to keep this in mind... And if I set a charger and
BMS up... chances it won't work for some applications... and I get nasty
E-mails. This is why I intend to support every new customer. There are just
some things that you can't completely engineer out. Training is easier than
building a does it all charger. The addition of a BMS and Regs helps
imensely, but it's one brick at a time.
>
> > That timer latch was pursposely set to unlatch. I wanted it that way.
And
> > so
> > do about %40 of my installed base.
>
> Question 2: What advantage is realized by allowing the timer to unlatch
if
> the voltage drops? Who are these 40% of your installed base?
Marine applications where they have a on board charger, and they want it to
time out shut off and restart at the command of the throttle.
Works slick I might add for the "Charge as we go crowd" with Gensets on
board.
>
> Question 3 (the big one for me): Since thermal runaway is an unlikely but
> very expensive possibility, what is the best way for me to prevent it in
my
> 120 V flooded lead-acid pack? Will the time-from-constant-voltage timer
on
> my PFC-20 suffice, or do I need a separate timer in the charger line cord?
>
This is really easy... never let your pack get over 150 VDC. And if you do
know that your pack is over 120 Deg F, Don't charge it until it cools. And
don't leave your pack at 150 volts for
days. If you want to float your pack drop it down to about 138 volts.
What this means if you keep the charger set to where you should thermal
runaway is a very rare issue on Lead Acid.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having the voltage peak timer latched on any entry to absorbtion phase...
WOULD indeed solve this one case. If and only if the pack gets there in the
first place.
The current maximum timer is 2 hours 45 minutes. If you are doing a constant
amps Nicad charge...then you don't have enough time to do the bulk phase and
the taper off absorbtion under just one timer intervel. To get a longer on
time you don't turn on SW2 But you have the timer start at the voltage
peak, then you hold it for less than 2 hour 45 minutes, and you have a nice
charge termination. What you don't see is the 8 hours of bulk charging at
some amps less than maximum before the voltage spikes up.. With this kind
of time frame is very easy to have the NiCad pack warm up and never have the
pack rise to peak voltage, and nver have the timer even start let alone
unlatch.
As we... or most of us battery guys know... NiCads have a nice voltage
spike, once all the amphours that have been taken out, are returned... What
is not so clear is at this voltage spike there is also a temperature spike,
If the temp gets high enough before the timer times out... it gets cleared.
I have quite a few folks that have on board chargers, They want the charger
to wake up and resume charging if they drag the pack down. They also don't
want to have to drain the pack to get the chargers back onto full charge.
These clients also have a Auto restart if the timer actually counts down
and finishes. But the restart is like 15 volts below the peak setting.
So where Bill needs a solid latching timer backed up with some maximum
charge clock, and a thermal pack sensor... the engineering push has been for
having the charger come back on at the slightest reason, and get 'er filled
up as fast as possible.
No all the timer start channels can go active at the same time. If all the
imputs keep the blue flashing long enough, the timer actually will time out.
Even a hot reg can time the charger out.
Even a hot reg burried inside the pack and tuned to go into over temp at 100
Deg F.... Humm possible temp cut out???
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Another PFC Caution? (was: PDF-20 design flaw) (long)
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > That timer latch was pursposely set to unlatch. I wanted it
> > that way. And so do about %40 of my installed base.
>
> You've stated more than once that you specifically designed the timer
> not to latch; would you mind explaining why?
>
> Even if you have personally found it difficult to get your batteries
> into thermal runaway, it is not obvious that having the timer latch
> would in any way be detrimental to a normal charge cycle, but it *could*
> reduce or prevent battery damage if things did go wrong.
>
> > Your Flaw is a needed feature on MOST of my clents PbLa demands.
>
> Can you clarify why having your finish phase timer restart if the
> battery voltage drops after having reached the voltage setpoint is a
> "feature" that any client would want, never mind "demand"?
>
> As others have pointed out, it is very difficult to point to any other
> PbA (or other chemistry charger) that behaves this way, so it is pretty
> clear that this feature is not at all essential to properly charging PbA
> batteries...
>
> > Dip Sw #2 is time out from start of charge.
>
> Can you clarify if this feature is in *addition* to the standard timeout
> from hitting voltage setpoint feature, or if they are mutually
> exclusive? I get the impression that they are mutually exclusive since
> people are adding line timers instead of flipping the DIP switch, but
> this could be wrong...
>
> If you really have good reason for not latching the finish phase timer,
> then adding the ability to limit the maximum charge duration seems like
> it would address the immediate concern (as well as cover any number of
> other possible unforseen faults) while allowing you to preserve the
> finish timer behaviour you prefer. Have your cake and eat it too! ;^>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They work very well. The only disadvantage is you can't unstrap them,
they become disposable, but then they are cheap.
Victor
Bill Dennis wrote:
Steve wrote:
My only comment is the straps have to be strong and tight.
Would those nylon straps with the little winch work, or couldn't I get them
tight enough?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is this the motor you are talking about?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050705/tc_nm/autos_honda_civic_dc;_ylt=Atbv
gE8LYA1AKxhdH0YKqGVT.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Honda Hybrid E motor pics., Re: What does the Prius use as the
power divider?
Hi Lee and All,
Today in the Tampa tribune and the
St. Pete Times in the business sections, had great
pics of the new improved Honda Hybrid e motor on the
engine where the flywheel would be, real detailed.
I want one!! Not the Honda but just the E
motor!!
Check your local paper and maybe they have it
too. The St Pete Times had a bigger, better
diffinition version. Maybe someone could put up a URL
for it, AP I think.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Stu or Jan wrote:
> > Anyone know the details of how the engine and the
> motor are
> > connected to the driveline?
>
> It has what amounts to a second differential to
> connect the ICE to two
> electric motors. Like this (view with fixed-width
> font):
>
> second
> _____ differential _______
> | | __ | |
> | ICE |=====( )====|motor#1|
> |_____| || |_______|
> ___||___
> | |
> | motor#2|
> __ |________| __
> | | || | |
> | | || | |
> | |========(__)========| |
> | | normal | |
> |__| differential |__|
> front front
> tire tire
>
> If you run just motor#2, you have a normal
> electric-only EV. If the ICE
> is stopped, then differential action in the second
> differential forces
> motor#1 to spin at TWICE the rpm. Motor#1 just
> freewheels; if you had
> any current in it, it would have torque, which would
> make the ICE have
> torque as well.
>
> If you run just the ICE and the car is stopped, then
> motor#2 is not
> turning. Motor#1 thus turns at the full speed of the
> ICE but in the
> opposite direction (just like a normal car
> differential; jack up the
> wheels, and turn one forward; the other wheel turns
> backwards).
>
> To make the car go, you use motor#1 as a generator.
> This slows it down,
> which forces motor#2 to start turning. The generated
> power from motor#1
> either chargers the batteries, or adds to the power
> to turn motor#2.
>
> With the ICE and 2 motors, there are lots of
> possibilities -- and Toyota
> using most of them! It's a clever setup.
>
> > Also, 110 pounds of batteries? What is their Ah
> rating?
>
> 274 volts at 6.5 amphours (at least for my 2001
> Prius).
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See them being installed in the motorcycle frame
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/bms/dscn2971.jpg
Strap no more than 4 (with end plates) first, and then
these blocks of 4 with straps over existing straps - in
blocks of the length you need.
I can supply better photos if you need, but I'm sure you
get the idea.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Not sure about that. I don't know how much they actually expand once charged.
The nylon straps with a winch will make your cells more difficult to fit in a
battery box. May be Dennis D or Victor can comment.
Steve
Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Steve wrote:
My only comment is the straps have to be strong and tight.
Would those nylon straps with the little winch work, or couldn't I get them
tight enough?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Davidson wrote:
I'm confused... If I hit reply to a message rather than type the
address by hand or go through my long list of addresses, delete the
text, and change the subject line, the email program still thinks it's
part of the same thread?
Yes. "Reply" assumes you reply to the same subject.
OTherwise it is called "compose", "write" or whatever email clients call it.
To me, the messages look exactly the same,
Not to the computer
> I don't even see the headers,
Computer does, it is invisible to the user unless enabled for viewing
since of no use for ordinary user
... much less know
what's in them
Computer knows; apparently the tread info among other info
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 6 Jul 2005 at 4:44, jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > Those are MINIMIUM standards, most do much
> > better than that.
>
> Jerry, I have a lot of respect for you, but I'd like
> to see some evidence
> for that statement.
>
> The automakers have seldom put effort into exceeding
> the EPA emissions
> requirements, so I'm skeptical that any outdoor
> equipment manufacturer would
> go very far into that arena. The average consumer
> wouldn't much care, and
> would be unwilling to pay the additional cost. I
> could be wrong of course;
> there are a few who sometimes advertise that their
> engines are cleaner than
> average (Honda comes to mind).
Yet many new cars, small engine makers though
mostly from Japanese parentage well exceed mandatory
emission standards now. Also they get credit for early
compliance against other cars they make. And just good
PR. The better MPG is another selling point.
Also as a model must be designed, built well before
the standards take place, it's economic to do your
next generation of products to comply as they will be
sold well into the mandatory period thus you get early
compliance for economic reasons plus the good PR is a
bonus.
Next is Cal and several other states, not backward
ones like Ohio- Fla, emissions standards are already
in effect so they build them that way for everyone as
it's not economical to build 2 versions though some
older ones will continue to be sold in non standard
states until inventory is burned off.
Also as Detroit, ect, found out that emissions
control is much less costly than they thought as it
allowed them to use smaller engines that put out the
same or more power than pre emission engines did as
they were hotrodded up to be both more eff and lower
polluting thus complying with the CAFE eff standards
and the emissions in one process.
>
> Outdoor power equipment is certainly cleaner than it
> used to be, but AFAIK,
> NO ONE's emission control equipment is anywhere near
> as sophisticated as
> even mid-1990s automotive emission control hardware.
Depends on which one.
Notice I said choose carefully as some are good and
some are not. But most all OHV can be hotrodded for
more eff, power with less emissions and described just
how and where to do it at, go-cart racing shops, if
they didn't want to do it themselves.
A well tuned OHV small engine can put out less
pollution than an untuned car motor as many car motors
are.
Thus I mention buying a 3 gas analyzer to keep the
motor in tune, greatly lowering emissions.
If you can point out a car engine that puts out
10-15hp that weighs under 60lbs, please let me know.
Until then, I must make the best of what is available
which with a little thought, work and hotrodding,
tunning, can be quite good rivaling a car emissions
and beating the pants off of them in CO2 for those who
think that's a pollutant. And get 100mpg+ in the
process for a scratch built EV, sometimes rarely used
hybrid gen.
>
>
> Also keep in mind that some of the standards I cited
> don't go into effect
> until 2006. The current and older outdoor and
> industrial engines EV
> hobbyists are likely to use for RE will be
> significantly dirtier.
>
> With all due respect, Jerry - and I have a lot of it
> for you - I STRONGLY
> disagree with your ideas for small-engine range
> extenders. I think the
You can disagree all you want but your
generalizations are no match for my specifics,
science, details.
While you are correct if talking about an old
flathead motor that is out of tune, a modern OHV one
that has been carefully chosen, tuned, can be quite
good in the pollution department at a constant speed,
full power.
> hobbyist or small production builder who wants to
> include an efficient and
> clean range extender will be best served by using a
> recent automobile engine
> and maintaining its supporting EC systems.
But motors for them are only available for
overweight leadmine conversions using the Metro 3 cyl
motor. None are available for small, eff EV's so we
must modify our own.
>
> Better yet, leave the EV at home, and drive a
> well-maintained, newer ICE for
> the long trips.
So having 2 cars are better? I don't think so when
1 with a little work can do it all at a much lower
fuel use, CO2 output not counting the pollution to
make a second car, it's tag, insurance, tune ups, ect
that the money paid to do which represents just that
much more pollution that happens for it to be made,
both the money and the extra car.
So I have a hard time seeing your point as an EV
with 50-100mile range would so rarely use a range
extender that's been properly built, tuned. If more
hauling is needed, there is always a trailer relieving
the need for a second vehicle.
I understand pollution quite well and how to avoid
it where you seem to rely on outdated generalizations,
I try to rely on science. And I try to teach others
how to lessen the bad points and get the best from
what's available.
Eventually I'd like to build a modern regenertive
steam generator for ultra low pollution hybrids plus
home electric, heating co gen plants but that will be
quite a while from now as building an EV for
production has priority now.
And a low pollution ICE gen is nessasary to sell
it to millions of people so they will only need one
low cost EV with a rarely used sometimes gen.
And yes, I do mow my lawn with an electric
mower ;-) It's the best!!
To be honest, I'm surprised you let this thread go
on but it is very important to get all this info out
as EV's with range extenders, sometime hybrids are the
future of transportation and much misinformation is
out there that needs to be corrected.
If those on the list know how to do, pick, use
ICE's for low pollution, eff, to charge EV's will help
us all in the long run.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
____________________________________________________
Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
