EV Digest 4483
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(EV project will be ready by fall dispite Lawyer fraud delays)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(Electric Combat Vehicle Conference)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Plug-in hybrid car would run on venture capital)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(Ferrari hybrid being built which will run this summer)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV smart car
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV smart car
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: engine Generator question.
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV smart car
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Crash safety and micro EV's
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV smart car
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: State of Charge calculations - check the units
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for engine,
Generator Eff ...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Naysayers, Eff,: Pollution in small engines, Re: Rules of thumb for
engine, Generator Eff ...
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) SAFT NiMH charging
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Crash safety and micro EV's
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Engine Generator Question
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Thermal runaway (was: RE: Another PFC Caution?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(EV project will be ready by fall dispite Lawyer fraud delays)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://montreal.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=qc-fraud20050615
Lawyer disbarred, may face fraud charges
Last updated Jun 15 2005 08:10 AM EDT CBC News
A lawyer in Montreal has been disbarred and may now face criminal
charges for bilking clients out of $800,000.
Martin Blanchette recently pleaded guilty to disciplinary charges
of collecting money from investors to fund a U.S. company's
attempt to develop an electric car, but then transferring the
cash to himself.
Reports say the Montreal police fraud squad had been awaiting the
Quebec Bar Association's decision before deciding whether to lay
criminal charges.
As for the electric car project, officials with the U.S. company
say the lawyer's actions delayed their project, but they expect
to have the car ready by this fall.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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EVLN(Electric Combat Vehicle Conference)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/09/119089.html
Valence Technology Presents at All Electric Combat Vehicle
Conference
AUSTIN, Texas--June 9, 2005--Valence Technology, Inc. ,
developers of Saphion(R) technology, the first commercially
available safe, phosphate-based lithium-ion battery, announced
its participation on June 15, 2005, at the 6th Annual All
Electric Combat Vehicle (AECV) Conference in Bath, England.
Military equipment is subjected to rigorous climates and
geographies, making superior safety, performance and reliability
essential characteristics for batteries used in these
applications.
"The cathode material used in a battery has a profound effect on
its safety. Most oxide-based lithium-ion batteries are
susceptible to thermal runaway and internal safety circuitry will
not necessarily prevent these events," said Dean Bogues, vice
president of marketing and sales for Valence Technology, Inc.
"That's why Saphion lithium-ion batteries are constructed using a
safe, phosphate-based cathode material. In addition to their
safety characteristics, Valence batteries offer high rate
capability and exceptional cycle life, which are critical in
electric vehicle applications, such as those used by the
military."
For more information on the AECV Conference, visit their web site
at: www.aecv2005.org.uk. About Valence Technology, Inc. Valence
Technology is a leader in the development and commercialization
of Saphion(R) technology, the only safe large format Lithium-ion
rechargeable battery technology. Valence holds an extensive,
worldwide portfolio of issued and pending patents relating to its
Saphion technology and Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries. The
company has facilities in Austin, Texas, Henderson, Nevada and
Suzhou and Shanghai, China. Valence is traded on the Nasdaq
SmallCap Market under the symbol VLNC and can be found on the
Internet at www.valence.com.
Copyright © 1996-2005 The Auto Channel.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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Sell on Yahoo! Auctions no fees. Bid on great items.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Plug-in hybrid car would run on venture capital)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002349206_btview27.html
Monday, June 27, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 AM
Silicon Valley view
Plug-in hybrid car would run on venture capital
By Matt Marshall Knight Ridder Newspapers
SAN JOSE, Calif. With oil prices hitting new highs, venture
capitalists are considering a kind of car you can plug into your
home power outlet at night. And one person they'll be hearing
from soon is Palo Alto's Felix Kramer.
The Toyota Prius and its ilk are in high demand with engines
that run on gas and electricity.
But with a plug-in, you can do away with gasoline almost
entirely. You can get a car that charges overnight so you drive
it 10 miles each way to work on batteries alone. And if you need
to drive it more, you can rely on a cleaner fuel blend, say, 80
percent ethanol made from corn or sugar and 20 percent
gasoline.
With the U.S. Senate's move last week to add new tax credits for
gas-electric hybrid cars in its version of national energy
legislation, the plug-in car may get new impetus.
"I'm looking very actively to play," said Marty Lagod, a venture
capitalist at Firelake Capital in Palo Alto, who wants to invest,
but also wants a plug-in car himself.
Though Silicon Valley sometimes has gotten a bad rap for not
excelling at clean tech, it turns out the region is a hotbed of
plug-in innovation.
The Electric Power Research Institute in Palo Alto, for example,
has helped develop plug-in hybrid conversions for the Dodge
Sprinter van, to be tested as early as this fall. And Andrew
Frank, a professor at the University of California, Davis, has
built several such vehicles with his students.
But some say it's time to build real businesses. And that's where
Kramer comes in.
We met with Kramer, founder of CalCars, a Palo Alto nonprofit
where he and engineer Ron Gremban developed a plug-in conversion
of the Prius. They've gotten it up to 100 miles per gallon,
compared with the 45 mpg driving a normal Prius.
When Kramer pulled up to a restaurant in his Prius, the only
parking space available was behind another Prius. They're that
popular.
Kramer is about to start looking for venture capital for a
plug-in, he said. So far, he said, he's been content to let
others do the business.
For example, he approached Greg Hanssen, of EnergyCS in Southern
California last year, with a crude conversion. Hanssen launched a
startup called E-Drive Systems, which soon plans to sell
conversion kits for the Prius. He is looking for angel investors,
too.
The problem is that E-Drive's conversions will cost $10,000 and
$15,000, which will leave most people out in the cold, Kramer
said. "It's for movie stars," he said, predicting they'll sell
only 100 to 1,000 vehicles.
Kramer thinks he can sell 10,000 to 100,000 vehicles, and at $750
a car in possible carbon credits, he thinks there's a promising
market.
The easiest option, he said, would be to have a major automaker
sign on, especially Toyota. With its economies of scale, Toyota
should be able to get the cost down to about $3,000 enough for
consumers to afford. They might even be able to save money over
the life of the car, he said.
But Toyota, one of the world's largest automakers, hardly feels
any urgency to embrace a plug-in car: "The situation is
evolving," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman in Southern
California. "We're studying the matter, and keeping a careful eye
on the projects happening around California."
The refusal to commit is why Kramer is considering Ford Motor,
which has expressed interest in clean technology, and also some
other Asian automakers.
Ideally, though, he'd set up a company that could be a qualified
vehicle modifier (QVM), which would be accepted by an automaker
as an official partner, and operate under the automaker's
warranty. If he has a separate company, that takes away the risk
for automakers, he said.
For that, though, he needs plenty of capital. VCs may balk: If
the car is at all successful, what's stopping Toyota or others
from building their own?
Whether or not he pulls it off, the hum of regional
experimentation is a good sign. Silicon Valley can no longer be
considered a slacker in clean tech.
Matt Marshall writes a column on venture capital in the San Jose
Mercury News.
Copyright © 2005 The Seattle Times Company
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Ferrari hybrid being built which will run this summer)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24803
14/06/2005
As the tifosi awaits the beginning of the 2005 revival,
Ferrari technical director, Ross Brawn, has revealed that his
team is already working on its 2006 car.
Mindful of the new regulations which come into affect next season
- primarily the new V8 2.4 litre formula - Ferrari intends
bucking its trend in recent years and will start the season with
its new car, which means getting the car on-track as soon as
possible.
It will probably a little bit earlier, Brawn admitted to
Speedtv.com because of the quite basic change in the
regulations, particularly the engine. So, we've got a hybrid car
being built which will run this summer, which is the current car
modified to take a V8 engine.
Then we're intending to have the race car ready earlier than this
one, he revealed. So we'll be back on a more normal schedule,
with the car being launched early next year, and with a hybrid
car being used to run the engine and transmission and all those
sorts of pieces.
However, that doesn't mean that Ferrari is easing up on
development of its 2005 car, far from it.
It has to be balanced, said Brawn. We have to balance what we can
achieve this year and what resources we can devote to next year.
Clearly we're not competitive enough this year. If we pour all
our efforts into this year and sacrifice next year, I'm not sure
that will be the right choice. We've got to make a balanced
judgment between improving this season and making sure that we
get back to where we want to be next year.
Following this weekend's United States Grand Prix, Ferrari will
return to the test track, where the team will continue its
efforts in improving the 'first lap' performance of the car, in
an attempt to help drivers Michael Schumacher and Rubens
Barrichello qualify better, the F2005's real Achilles heel this
season.
In testing, we're trying things to see if we can get a quicker
lap from the tires, said the Englishman. I wouldn't say
we've made any great progress. But that's something we're having
to deal with with Bridgestone, and something which will take a
little bit of time to reach fruition.
It's the preparation of the tire, the setup of the car to use
them on that first lap, and so on and so on. We've not made huge
progress, but there's a lot of work going on.
It's one of the projects that (designer) Rory (Byrne) is involved
in, to identify and develop first-lap performance, and try and
overcome our weakness, Brawn continued. It's just his experience
and racing mentality.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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--- Begin Message ---
no I am using it! how could I not, it (kind of) looks
like a ferrari. too bad it wont move like one :(
Brian B.
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And you aren't using that chassis and body for your
> EV? Hmmm...
>
> David C Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> "The Bush administration's priorities are "a little
> bit different now
> and veterans aren't a priority,"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:03 AM
> Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
>
>
> > Bradley GTII built off of a 71 beetle chassis....
> >
> > --- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> What kind of car was it in?
> >>
> >> David C Wilker Jr.
> >> USAF (RET)
> >> "The Bush administration's priorities are "a
> little
> >> bit different now
> >> and veterans aren't a priority,"
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:01 PM
> >> Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
> >>
> >>
> >> > the brushes look fine and I have an extra
> set... I
> >> > doubt there is many miles on it. the motor was
> new
> >> > when installed in 82 and the odometer is
> currently
> >> at
> >> > 15 mi....
> >> >
> >> > Brian B.
> >> >
> >> > --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> brian baumel wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >The motor runs great,
> >> >>
> >> >> The bearings are more then likely fine then.
> Is
> >> >> there anyway you can
> >> >> get access to the brushes to see how much wear
> >> they
> >> >> might have?
> >> >>
> >> >> Even though it's 20 years old, it might very
> well
> >> >> not even have more
> >> >> then a few hundred miles on it(if that)?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> ____________________________________________________
> >> > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great
> >> items.
> >> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ____________________________________________________
> > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great
> items.
> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
Smart EV:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/catalogo_scheda.cfm?id=132&cat_id=1
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
On 7/6/05, Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was curious if these could be obtained anywhere. Andy says "not available
> in the US" and then "tell your Chrysler dealer that Andy sent you". It looks
> like he got one in NY. My electric rates just went up 58% so I need to make a
> smaller conversion that doesn't use as much electricity per mile as my jeep
> and these are really cute. - Mark
>
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/27/60minutes/rooney/main704601.shtml
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are you using for a controller?
Mike G
I just replaced the brushes in my GE sepex. Four pair (eight brushes in
all). I think it all ran about $130 or so.
Runs a lot better without those rivets dancing on the commutator:^O
Marv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, a few more batts, a couple more motors...
"Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
no I am using it! how could I not, it (kind of) looks
like a ferrari. too bad it wont move like one :(
Brian B.
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
And you aren't using that chassis and body for your
EV? Hmmm...
David C Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
"The Bush administration's priorities are "a little
bit different now
and veterans aren't a priority,"
----- Original Message -----
From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
> Bradley GTII built off of a 71 beetle chassis....
>
> --- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> What kind of car was it in?
>>
>> David C Wilker Jr.
>> USAF (RET)
>> "The Bush administration's priorities are "a
little
>> bit different now
>> and veterans aren't a priority,"
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "brian baumel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: 20 yr old 9" DC motor
>>
>>
>> > the brushes look fine and I have an extra
set... I
>> > doubt there is many miles on it. the motor was
new
>> > when installed in 82 and the odometer is
currently
>> at
>> > 15 mi....
>> >
>> > Brian B.
>> >
>> > --- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> brian baumel wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The motor runs great,
>> >>
>> >> The bearings are more then likely fine then.
Is
>> >> there anyway you can
>> >> get access to the brushes to see how much wear
>> they
>> >> might have?
>> >>
>> >> Even though it's 20 years old, it might very
well
>> >> not even have more
>> >> then a few hundred miles on it(if that)?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
____________________________________________________
>> > Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great
>> items.
>> > http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
> Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - no fees. Bid on great
items.
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sweet, my Italian is not so great but it looks like they are selling it for
$13,800 Swiss Franks which is 10,600 USD or for me $13,500 CDN. The base
model here is $16,500 CDN.
I did call about the electric drive system for the smart but they would not
sell it to me as components :-(
Lawrence Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: July 6, 2005 3:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV smart car
Smart EV:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/catalogo_scheda.cfm?id=132&cat_id=
1
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
On 7/6/05, Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was curious if these could be obtained anywhere. Andy says "not
available in the US" and then "tell your Chrysler dealer that Andy sent
you". It looks like he got one in NY. My electric rates just went up 58% so
I need to make a smaller conversion that doesn't use as much electricity per
mile as my jeep and these are really cute. - Mark
>
>
>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/27/60minutes/rooney/main704601.shtml
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about something like this? It will supply your heat during the
winter, it consumes biodiesel to help the enviroment, and this setup
consumes ~.5 g/hr for 5kw....and no, I am not affiliated.
http://www.amplepower.com/products/bdbc/index.html
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of toltec
Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 9:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: engine Generator question.
Assuming that we have a 1,000 lb EV and we wish to augment the
batteries with an ICE/generator, is there anything out there
that would generate 10KW and burn less than 1 gallon per hour?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can sell you the components for it (except for Zebra battery)
if you want. They use TIM400 and TIM600 AC inverter,
one of their motors and single sped reduction boxes like this one:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn0846.jpg
Motor attached:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn0850.jpg
The gear boxes are actually made in Italy.
I had a chance to inspect a bunch of these cars while in
Switzerland
Being assembled
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn0778.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn0780.jpg
Inside
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn0878.jpg
Outside
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn0763.jpg
Victor
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
Sweet, my Italian is not so great but it looks like they are selling it for
$13,800 Swiss Franks which is 10,600 USD or for me $13,500 CDN. The base
model here is $16,500 CDN.
I did call about the electric drive system for the smart but they would not
sell it to me as components :-(
Lawrence Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: July 6, 2005 3:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV smart car
Smart EV:
http://www.vel2.ch/04_veicoli/01_catalogo/catalogo_scheda.cfm?id=132&cat_id=
1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't imagine that anyone driving a micro EV would fare well in a crash
with a 3,500 pounder.
My son has a sand rail that weighs about 1,200 lb.
In a sand rail, you are sitting in a roll cage and using a 5 point harness,
it seems quite safe if not safer than a 'regular' car.
If you consider a NASCAR hitting a wall at 200 mph and the driver walking
away, you know what a good harness and a roll cage can achieve.
With a roll cage the body could be as light as the fabric covering of an
airplane wing.
Should small or micro EV's be built on a roll cage chassis for safety?
Has anyone made one?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jul 2005 at 16:17, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Mark Hanson wrote:
>
> > My electric rates just went up 58%
>
> What was the reasoning behind that?
>
I can't speak for Mark, but in quite a few areas around the US, quite a bit
of electricity is generated by burning natural gas. NG supplies are
apparently tight, and costs have been rising quickly for several months.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On Jul 6, 2005, at 2:03 PM, Philip Marino wrote:
The way you calculate it, Cp ( called "Peukert's capacity" ) does not
have units of Amp-hours, but, instead, amps^1.05-hours. Right away,
that seems strange for something called a "capaicity". Also, when you
divide Cp by C ( which you claim has units of amp-hours) you get an M
which is not dimensionless.
Also, further on, you subtract true amp-hours from Cp. That is not
valid - you can't subract apples from oranges.
You seem to be missing something here (or I have been for a long time.)
[amps]^[peukert's exponent] * [time] = Peukert's capacity. Cp is (in
theory) the batteries capacity at the 1 amp rate. The formula won't
hold in every condition so the exponent should be based on some
reasonable rates of service the battery will see.
When charging a battery the true amp hours removed is a better
indication of what needs to be put back (you don't need Peukert for
this.) However, when discharging you do need some method of figuring
out when the battery won't be able to hold to 1.75vpc at a given
discharge rate.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 6, 2005, at 2:42 PM, brian baumel wrote:
no I am using it! how could I not, it (kind of) looks
like a ferrari. too bad it wont move like one :(
13 Optimas or Orbitals and a Z2k will make it go like stink!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Jerry, thanks for your response. Maybe I missed something, but I see no
> real evidence - solid numbers - presented here.
>
> You have a design for a potentially salable EV that includes a range
> extender. The concept is an interesting one, you've put a lot into it, and
> it's natural that you want to defend it. But until you show me your
> measured emissions that demonstrate that your EV driven across the US with
> its RE running emits markedly less CO/HC/NOx per mile - and even uses less
> energy - than a state of the art highly efficient ICE on the same route,
> it's still just words.
>
> Heck, I'll even settle for very carefully calculated specs. But, with all
> due respect, generalities aren't what I'm looking for.
>
> Sorry, I can't point out a 60 lb auto engine that produces 10-15hp, I have
> no clue about such stuff. Maybe someone else can. But from my standpoint
> it's unnecessary. My argument is that the average driver is better off
> skipping the RE entirely and just taking a nice clean ICE on long trips.
>
> Again, I mean no disrespect; I just want something more than conjecture.
> I'm really sorry if this annoys or disturbs you.
>
> Good luck,
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
I don't work in any mechanical or electrical field, so personally, the only way
I come up with numbers is by doing a web search or asking others. There are
plenty of people on this list with hands-on expertise that can give the
real-life values needed for any design theory, but there are even more with "by
guess and by golly" generalizations. Anyone can get a vague idea to get a design
theory going, but a true professional *lives* with the numbers that clarifies it
(or sends it to the trash) - those are who we need to heard from to prevent
missteps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry, thanks for your response. Maybe I missed
> something, but I see no
> real evidence - solid numbers - presented here.
I'm just telling you how it is done for ones that
will get good emissions results. While you are correct
that most small motors do make a fair to large amount
of pollution, it doesn't have to be that way. It's
like saying all cars are slow because VW bugs are!!
>
> You have a design for a potentially salable EV that
> includes a range
> extender. The concept is an interesting one, you've
> put a lot into it, and
> it's natural that you want to defend it. But until
I do it because it is doable. I'm a fairly lazy
person and don't do things that might fail as it's too
much work.
But luckily I have experience in many fields that
allows me to see, do things others can't. A product of
not working 9 to 5 but instead on what I wanted when I
wanted, mostly building cool things ahead of their
time. I never settled for normal which is good as a
normal person would never try to produce EV's!!
Like when I started building multihulls I was told
they were unsafe, couldn't go to windward and couldn't
be built from 2 flat 6'x32' sheets of plywood into a 3
dimensional compound fair curved hull. Yet I've built
over 50 of that style boats and most beat racing
monohulls to the windward mark easily. And 2-3 times
the speed of them on other points of sail with a
liveaboard cruising weight load onboard!!
They said I couldn't build a windgen blade from a
single thickness and not only did I but it worked
better putting out more power and was quieter than any
other.
And that I couldn't make electric power from tidal
flow without dams but did and was so powerful it had
to be turned off 22hrs/day so not to overcharge the
liveaboard boat's batts.
> you show me your
> measured emissions that demonstrate that your EV
> driven across the US with
> its RE running emits markedly less CO/HC/NOx per
> mile - and even uses less
> energy - than a state of the art highly efficient
> ICE on the same route,
> it's still just words.
If you have a spare $1-2k I will get you the
numbers and a unit, otherwise you'll just have to wait
until I get to that point as first I have to do the EV
part.
But I have studied this since a kid many yrs ago
and I understand it quite well and what makes a
difference.
I was fasinated by Detroit trying to make low
emission cars in the 70's and couldn't until they
finally figured out hotrodding, eff, tight
control,tolerances was the answer as is used now and
what I proposed.
>
> Heck, I'll even settle for very carefully calculated
> specs. But, with all
> due respect, generalities aren't what I'm looking
> for.
So you 'prove' your case with gross generalities
and I give specific methods long known to science,
engineers and I get no credit for that? How do you
think low emission engines are made, Magic?
There is a bit of double standard here.
As for the eff, MPG, there are strong numbers to
back it up.
My E woody uses about 100wt-hrs/mile from the
plug measured costing $.01/mile. That translates to
10kw/100miles which also is what a fairly eff
generator makes from a gal of gas conservatively. With
top of the line small ICE and gen, it comes to about
13kw/gal so 130mpg equivilent.
If diesel top of the line with 90% eff gen, about
16-17kw thus 160+mpg equivilent. Lee says 20kw/gal in
the Prius but I'm more conservative and I don't think
he included gen eff.
And as the E woody was no where near optimized,
in fact, down right funky, I expect my Freedom EV to
do even better but conservatively will use those
proven numbers now.
>
> Sorry, I can't point out a 60 lb auto engine that
> produces 10-15hp, I have
> no clue about such stuff.
To be honest, you don't seem to understand
combustion at all, instead seem to rely on gov
satistics of motors that I wouldn't use without
modifying a lot.
Have you ever noticed that when racers modify their
engines they can get twice or more power from them? It
is no different if you tune for low emissions but you
refuse to recognize that for some reason. All getting
lower emissions is is tightening up the tolerances so
everything gets burned correctly.
Maybe someone else can.
> But from my standpoint
> it's unnecessary. My argument is that the average
> driver is better off
> skipping the RE entirely and just taking a nice
> clean ICE on long trips.
You are just like the other 'experts' who are stuck
on their ideas that something can't be done and refuse
to acknowledge the glaring flaws in your arguement
like the complete waste of a whole other car!! Which I
then go my merry way and do it as I will.
It reminds me of those who say EV's won't work. Not
only can they work, but with a little thought, design
work and being practical, not dogmatic, beat the pants
of a reg car in every way. It's call good engineering,
design.
>
> Again, I mean no disrespect; I just want something
> more than conjecture.
I put out facts based on science, if you were more
of a scientist, you would understand better.
It's amazing that you put up such an arguement
without knowing anything about the subject of
combustion, emissions and how it works.
> I'm really sorry if this annoys or disturbs you.
Actually I don't mind as it gives me a chance to
educate others on the real facts as I have in many
other cases like smaller, lighter, aero, 50% batt
weight EV's are where it's at. Not leadmine
conversions that use 2 to 4x the energy, costs, to do
the same thing. Now that's eff, low polluting ;-0
All my life there have been people like you telling
me it won't work and I just shake my head and chuckle
knowing you, they will find out soon enough.
>
> Good luck,
With science, physics, you don't need luck, just
vision, persistance, some money and the ability to
ignore naysayers.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Brian and All,
--
With a few mods in power, batts and handling,
it could curl your hair at it's weight?
Was it a factory EV from Bradley? Some were
produced that way.
As it's so light, you don't need a Zilla 2k to
go fast as even a low voltage 1k would do the trick
with Orbitals or YT batts.
Or other controllers like the SRE 600 amp
96vdc using 8 Orbitals for power and 8 floodeds for
range depending on what type of EV, range you want for
much less money. You will have no problem smoking your
tires!
What voltage, controller, batts, charger do
you have?
What do you want to do with it?
You have a very light, aero EV there that has
lots of potential for range or sport or both.
There are several on the web including a very
nice one by a high school in Melboure, Fla.
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
- brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
____________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone know what the proper charge algorithm for a
Saft NIMH pack is ?
If the pack nominal voltage is 336, can I safely
charge at, say, 1 Amp up to 340 Volts ? Even with no
individual cell monitoring ?
any other advice ?
thanks
~fortunat
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--- Begin Message ---
Stu or Jan wrote:
> Should small or micro EV's be built on a roll cage chassis for safety?
> Has anyone made one?
The Tango is built like that:
"Because safety is such a concern for small cars in particular, we
have designed the Tango around a roll cage that meets or exceeds both
SCCA and NHRA regulations."
http://www.commutercars.com/intro.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Motorcycle engines are designed to operate
> reliably
> >> at mostly part
> >> throttle. The life of a motorcycle engine is
> >
> > Not the MC's I've driven!!!!
> > A MC is a very high drag vehicle so any engine
> >unless greatly overpowered, runs at a fairly high %
> of
> >peak power, especially in the sizes we are talking
> >about 150-300cc-10/25hp, that must put out full
> power
> >to get any speed at all on the highway. Most will
> >easily hold their top speed for hrs at a time and
> last
> >many yrs.
>
> OK, Jerry, whatever you say. I've been turning the
> wrenches on racing
> motorcycles since 1969 and have a few titles to my
> name (Daytona 100cc
> class 1972, 125 class 1973, wrenched for Dale
>
> If you ever have the opportunity to hook a data
> acquisition system to
> a bike you'll see as I have, that the engine
> actually spends very
> little time at WOT, even on the track. The rider
> does demand high
> power but except for long straights at tracks like
> Daytona, most of
> the time the power is feathered.
The smaller the engine, the more time at full
throttle. And on the street, you basicly have 2
speeds in small 150-250cc MC engines, idle and full
bore, No? They are designed for that as they must or
they pay out in warranty claims.
If you are on a highway, you use 90% power for hrs
if traveling, no? Maybe you don't but I and many
others do. If a 600cc and up you are correct but I'm
talking about small 10-15hp motors, not 40-70hp as I'd
use a Metro for those.
>
> This doesn't matter as much as one might think. I
> have an SAE paper
> here somewhere where the author develops a model to
> predict engine
> life. The most significant input variable is total
> number of
> revolutions. A racing engine's life isn't that much
I agree and would keep rpm down as much as
possible.
> shorter than an
> industrial engine in terms of total revolutions. In
> Your proposed 150-300 cc engine simply will not do
> the job for more
> than a few hours, probably less than 500. I base
500hrs is 30,000 miles at 60 mph!!! And less than
it would be used in 100,000 miles of driving as most
would be on EV/batts, not gen which would not even be
permanant but plug in when needed. With a 70-100mile
EV batt range, it will be rarely used.
> this estimate on
> decades of racing engine experience. Of course,
> you're free to try to
> prove me wrong!
Not arguing as that's enough life.
>
> A 1 liter engine running at a reduced speed and
> producing maybe 15-20
> HP MIGHT be a decent prime mover. I have a hunch
But weighs too much for a 1200lb EV. I need a
50-60lb engine or less preferably with lower cost as
must buy new.
>, I'm not
> sure why anyone
> would want to risk the money when an industrial
> engine is known to
> have the durability.
I'm open to an industrial engine though it would
have to be modified to lower emissions and some power
increase that would result from making it more eff as
a bonus. In fact probably what I'll do as I need new
units for this. The MC was for others who could use
used motors.
How would you lower emissions on them and which
one would you pick for what I need?
What do you think of increasing ign advance,
better carbs, higher compression to reduce emissions
in stock industrial engines? Gen will be used for
starting.
Goal is lightweight, 50lbs or less, high eff,
very low emissions at 10-15hp. 1,000hrs life is fine.
How much does that fuel injection cost? Or which
carb is best for steady power eff?
>
>
> > This high drag is why EV MC's have very little
> >range!!!
> > A MC takes much more power to go 65mph,
> 20-30hp,
> >than a car does at 12-20hp!!!! YMMV
>
> Actually the power requirements are similar, as
> indicated by similar
> fuel consumption figures. My late 80s model full
> dress GoldWing
> (before they turned it into a 2 wheeled car) got
> about 35mpg. About
> the same as my beetle. My old 500cc yamaha street
> bike ran about
> 45mpg. Similar to small economy cars. No magic
> here.
My 5' wide E woody takes 100wt-hrs/mile from the
plug or better than 100mpg at 45 mph. I expect my
Freedom EV to do the same at 60mph, about 8hp, as
better aero, less rolling drag, more MPH.
I use a 3.5hp-36vdc Citi car motor in the E woody
and have had it to 60 mph on 48vdc.
So you can see just what better aero can do and how
bad a MC is.
>
> The red shroud (GX type) Honda is the industrial
> grade engine. My
> memory is fuzzy on the rated life (I'm thinking 4000
> hours but I might
> be thinking of another engine) but it is far more
> than is likely to be
> needed for an EV range extender. Especially if one
> runs the engine at
> less than rated speed.
Glad to hear that as I have a 5,5 and a 13hp now.
but I only need 1,000 hrs of engine life.
Have you ever measure emissions from any
industrial engines? Results?
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
> Water cooled gasoline engines go as high as 10,000
> hours. Diesels
> even more.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> I did some surfing last night to try to understand the mechanics of
thermal
> runaway. I didn't have much luck. I get the basics - batteries heat up,
> resistance drops, current rises, batteries heat up more, repeat until
> meltdown.
>
> Question 1: What I couldn't find any info on is how the charger affects
the
> cycle. If you're in runaway before you hit constant voltage, the
> timer-on-constant-voltage will obviously do you no good.
But what's the
> probability of a thermal runaway during bulk charge? If it happens in the
> constant voltage phase, can the pack voltage drop to the point where the
> timer resets?
Yes. When the batteries are in the finish portion of the charge, they are
generating the most heat. Thus, they are at the highest temperature during
this phase. Thus, they are quite likely to go into thermal runaway during
the finish charge.
If your pack is a little too warm, and you are just over the edge
for thermal runaway, it will happen during the finish charge (because the
voltage will dip below the trigger voltage and the timer will reset.) If
your pack is insanely hot to begin with, you will never reach the trigger
voltage and the charger will never shut off (because there is no "total
time" limit timer.) In either case, you pack will be ruined.
Don't be confused. I am talking about lead-acid batteries. (They
do this just like Ni-Cads.)
It apparently did on Bill's pack, is it possible with lead?
Yes. See above.
Most certianly if you have your peak voltage set too high. This is the
key... All batteries will if you drive them to too high a voltage.
Even very slightly too high. This voltage changes with temperature
as well as the age of the batteries. (Yes, I'm still talking about lead-acid.)
They do
it even faster if you hold them at high voltages for long times.
So Yea you can drive PbLa to run a way.
It is easy, actually.
> > That timer latch was pursposely set to unlatch. I wanted it that way.
And
> > so
> > do about %40 of my installed base.
>
> Question 2: What advantage is realized by allowing the timer to unlatch
if
> the voltage drops? Who are these 40% of your installed base?
Marine applications where they have a on board charger, and they want it to
time out shut off and restart at the command of the throttle.
Works slick I might add for the "Charge as we go crowd" with Gensets on
board.
This makes no sense. If the timer has timed out, the charger does
not restart if the battery voltage drops. It only resets if the battery
voltage drops BEFORE it times out.
After time-out, the only way to restart the timer is to turn off
the charger and turn it back on again.
>
> Question 3 (the big one for me): Since thermal runaway is an unlikely but
> very expensive possibility, what is the best way for me to prevent it in
my
> 120 V flooded lead-acid pack? Will the time-from-constant-voltage timer
on
> my PFC-20 suffice, or do I need a separate timer in the charger line cord?
>
This is really easy... never let your pack get over 150 VDC. And if you do
know that your pack is over 120 Deg F, Don't charge it until it cools. And
don't leave your pack at 150 volts for
days. If you want to float your pack drop it down to about 138 volts.
The charger doesn't sense temperature. You can start the charge
with the pack at some reasonable temperature and have it go over 120 while
it is charging. (Parked in the hot sun, for example.) It will reach peak
temperature during the finish charge WHILE YOU ARE NOT THERE.
What this means if you keep the charger set to where you should thermal
runaway is a very rare issue on Lead Acid.
It would be even more rare if your finish timer did not reset
itself. :^)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
