EV Digest 4501
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motorcycle for electric
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Plastic welder
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) ebay battery boxes for sale ...
by "Steve Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Motor cycle for electric
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Peukert's equation answers from a battery engineer, Part 1
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Peukert's equation answers from a battery engineer, Part 2
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Peukert's equation answers from a battery engineer, Part 3 (final)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Air conditioner etc
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT: Another idea that probably won't work
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Plastic welder, Thank You!
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Motor cycle for electric
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) FW: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) How about my rear end?
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: battery temperature measurement
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Air conditioner etc
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget:
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
Some emotorcycle links-
EV Album Motorcycles
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/motorcycles.html
Reverend Gadget's Electric Motorcycle
http://reverendgadget.com/subpage1.html
Killa Cycle
World's Quickest Electric Motorcycle
9.45 seconds @ 152.07 mph in the 1/4 mile:
http://www.killacycle.com
Vectrix Electric Bike
http://www.vectrixusa.com
Electric Motorsport Motorcycles
http://www.electricmotorsport.com
Jackal Electric Bike
http://thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_home.htm
--
A hypothetical times a hypothetical divided by a questionable is
unusable.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This doesn't really answer your questions Dave.......
A few of us may recall some idiot at the Power of DC running a 3/8" drill bit
up through the bottom of a baby Hawker
in the corner while drilling a mounting bolt hole for the newly formed battery
hold down cage. Well, that idiot
repaired the battery (no internal damage, thankfully) by stealing some plastic
from the case of an old battery and
melting into a pool in the hole of the baby Hawker, using of all things, a
soldering iron. It smoked and stunk. But,
it worked.
I melted the plastic and let it drip into the hole until full, then used the
tip of the iron to just stir it around a
little until the puddle looked like it was fusing to the case. Let it cool and
presto, nowhere near as good as new,
but it's sealed.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Ignorance is treatable, with a good prognosis. However, if left untreated, it
develops into Arrogance, which is often
fatal. :-)" -- Lee Hart
Get your own FREE evgrin.com email address;
send a request to ryan at evsourcecom
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave Cover
> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 1:34 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Plastic welder
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm planning on making my battery boxes with steel (bed)frames and then
> lining them with plastic boxes and lids. HDPE seems like the right material.
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a plastic welder? I've seen a variety
> but don't know what options I need and what don't matter. eBay has all kinds
> and prices.
>
> Wattage?
>
> Temp range?
>
> Airless? (I have a compressor.)
>
> Do the rods have to be of the same material as the box?
>
> Can I glue/bond/epoxy the boxes instead of welding?
>
> Fiberglass over thin plywood instead?
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hell Jeff,
This will give you some ideal of what energy it takes to run a A/C.
The A/C unit is a smaller FACE MOUNTING UNIT, not the large old units that
weigh over 50 lbs.
I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from
192 volts at 4 amps to run the A/C while driving the others under no load.
This is with the A/C full on, while Power Steering and Alternator is not
running.
The wattage would be 188 x 4 = 752 watts or close to 1 hp. If you try to run
a 12 volt motor to run the A/C than the ampere would be about 752/12 = 62
amps!! which would be a too much.
You either run small drive motors off the DC battery pack or used a very large
DC/DC or DC/AC inverter of the battery pack.
I could not used a large DC/AC inverter in my already large car which is jam
pack and have no more room. I would have to have a bigger car. The DC/AC
inverter to run all my accessories, is about 18 inches long by 12 inches high
and 12 inches deep which has a output of 125/250 VAC 60 Hz at 6000 watts. Which
would weigh over 100 lbs.
Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot shaft
of the main motor, like a engine does. It works great. Used standard units
that you can get at any auto parts store.
When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these units
fire up, the alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in
1st gear or reverse.
I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I can
run these units for maintenance and testing.
When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still running,
while the amp meters are reading O amps!! This is like a mechanical REGEN.
In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on close to
3000 watts of heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on. This
mechanical REGEN slows me down going down a steep hill like a ICE compression
of a engine in first gear.
When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any brakes, the
Mech.REGEN slows me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at
0 amps on battery pack!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: Air conditioner etc
I live in fresno and today is 104 and they are predicting 110 later this
week, whew.
I want to ask how much energy do you guys find it takes to run an air
conditioner, Especially in climates like mine. I assume there are 3
motors involved, the one for the compressor, the one for the
condensor(radiator) and the one for the evaporator(blower)
The heat never use to bother me but after the last round of
prescriptions from my doctor, it is becoming a real problem. I need to
size the motor for the 1987 300zx ans I am thinking of buying two of
everything and retrofitting the AC unit in the ICE car to, just so I can
leave the AC running while I pop into the store or while I am in the
dreaded gas station. I noticed today while at the bank that a lot of
people leave ther cars running(sacralidge) just to run the AC in this
town, I don't want to join that group!
I think I could decrease my usage of gas if I ran the power steering and
AC off of batteries in the trunk and recharged them each night, (very
mild hybrid)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
> and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have
> never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
> and controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those
> ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
Hi Jeff,
A Yamaha that is "ninja style" is probably a 600 - 1200 cc sport bike. A
600 or 750 would be a good choice - big enough to fit stuff, not too heavy.
If you can find out what year and model it is, your choice should be easier.
My approach with this would be to *not* embarrass EVs everywhere by
installing a foo-foo EV drivetrain. It doesn't do the cause any good when
you take a stock gas street bike that could easily out-accelerate all but a
few of the NEDRA record holders and "improve" it to the point where it
barely reaches 65 mph. What most people don't get is that adequate power is
a valuable safety feature.
Besides, foo-foo bikes aren't any fun. The fact that you will need lots of
batteries for any useful range means it will be heavy, which emphasizes the
need for some serious grunt. I would go with a 6.7 ADC motor, thirteen 26
Ah Hawkers and a Zilla Z1k. That's a total weight of around 600 lbs., 300
of which is lead. (If you decide on some sort of flooded batteries, make
very sure they won't get punctured in a crash - you might be swimming in
electrolyte.) Experiment with motor volts, motor amps and gearing to get
the performance you want. A sport bike glider will easily handle it.
I was able to arrange (on paper) all those components in a Kawasaki EX500,
but that's no guarantee you can do the same on that Yamaha. Some of the
sport bikes have twin spar frames that put metal exactly where you don't
want it. Pick your batteries, make a cardboard mockup and see.
I hope you give this a try. So far no one to my knowledge has made an EM
with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use. (Though some
have come close, and could get there easily). Someone needs to. Oh, and if
you do, *please* post the weight of the glider. That's the most important
figure of merit when deciding on which bike to convert.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 1:33 PM
Subject: MC EV drive Set ups / eff Re: Motor cycle for electric
> > fun commuter
> > etek
> > 72V450A Alltrax
> > 72V 40Ah kokam
>
> You really need 2 Etek's if you want to do any
> kind of power or speed over 50mph or good hill
> climbing ability. Series/parallel them and you need
> 1/2 less controller for the same power. And you could
> add a bypass contactor for better top end power.
> Also while we would love Kokam's, this size pack
> would be $8-10K?
$3200 :^)
note i don't choose etek for lots of power but to have more range >>>fun
(light and 72V) COMMUTER
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have just listed two 3 position battery boxes on ebay for those
persons interested. They were from a TeVan I parted out a year ago. I
also have a 3rd unit I will be offering . total capacity of all 3 boxes
= 9 regular sized batteries. These are very high quality mfged units.
Item #s as follows .
4561983331
4561983331
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope you give this a try. So far no one to my knowledge has made an EM
with motorcycle-appropriate performance that's in daily use. (Though some
have come close, and could get there easily). Someone needs to. Chris
If this is what you hope to see, then suggesting he use lead for batteries
makes no sense. The only thing available that has a shot of getting true
motorcycle like performance are some big Kokam LiPolys. Sure he can slap a
bunch of Hawkers on there and make it out accelerate a car, but the batts
will be pooped out after the second or third stop light. Besides if you
have ever seen these gasser sports bikes at the drag strip compared to Nedra
motorcycles, the performance is not even close. I believe it was Brian Hall
that I saw break into the 100mph club at Woodburn. I regularly see sports
bikes running in the 8's and 9's and close to 140mph on the nights I go see
Wayland race at PIR. They run at these speeds all night long, then the
owners ride them home.
Because of the awful aerodynamics an EV motorcycle has even less chance
replacing the perforance of it's gasser equivilant.
I have put a couple of thousand miles on my EM and couldn't be happier that
I built it. It accelerates about the same as an average car, tops out ot
60mph, and gives me a good 15 to 20 mile range. It still looks like a real
motorcycle, and I can give my kids or wife a ride. I have never met a
motorcycle guy who didn't think it was cool, especially when they take it
for a ride.
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent my peukert question to a battery engineer. I'd like to state
publicly that Mr. Marino's assertions about the equation (the "units
debate") appear to be quite correct, and that I was obviously barking up
the wrong tree. I've taken Mr. Kamath's comments and modified my
original program to be dimensionless, and it seems to work quite well.
Below is listed my original email, and his response. I'm going to post
the other replies in other emails
===============================
Mr. Kamath,
I have a question regarding Peukert's equation, and I'm hoping you can
settle a dispute between myself and another individual. You wrote a
review of "Handbook of Batteries" for Amazon, which is how I got your
name. You mentioned you were a battery engineer. I'm hoping you'll
indulge my questions.
My research indicates that Peukert's equation, relating to the discharge
of lead-acid batteries is this:
I ** n * T = Cp
I is current
n is the Peukert's exponent
T is time
Cp is Peukert's capacity in amp-hours
** means exponentation or "raised to"
1) Is this Peukerts equation?
2) Assuming n = 2, it has been asserted (by the other individual) that
this equation is not valid because the units on each side of the
equation are not the same:
I ** 2 * T = Cp
or
amp-amp-hours = amp-hours (since I is squared, this makes the units on
the left different)
I contend that raising I to n does not modify the units.
Can you clear this up, or point to a reference (preferrably a book;
unfortunately, my library does not carry "Handbook of Batteries") that
is authoritative about Peukert's equation? The other individual in this
dispute insists that "someone on the internet posted the equation wrong,
and all the other websites copied it."
Thank you for your time.
-- Eric Poulsen
===============================
Mr. Poulsen,
Peukert's equation is a simple empirical curve fit; that is, it merely
describes the data, without attempting to explain the theoretical
reasons behind them.
The equation as you've written it works okay, but if you want to be
mathematically rigorous, you can make the equation dimensionless to fix
the units:
(I/I')**n * (T/T') = 1
where I' is some characteristic current and T' is the discharge time for
the battery at current I'. Note that you have to define one of these
two constants for a given battery design; the other will come out of
empirical data, as will n. Note that the right side has no units here;
if you wish, you can think of it as (Cp/Cp') where Cp' = I'**n * T' = Cp
(since Cp is the same for all I and T, including I' and T'). In this
equation, the units work out correctly.
If you don't make it dimensionless, you are effectively setting I' = 1
Amp. When you do the empirical tests, you will find that Cp will be the
same as the time in hours at the 1 A rate. This is obvious if you
consider that:
(I/I')**n * (T/T') = 1 ==> (I/I')**n * T = T'
Note that here the units for the right side of the equation work out to
be hours, not A-h. If you want it to be amp-hours on the right side,
just multiply both sides by I':
I' * (I/I')**n * T = T' * I' = C
(Note that C here is different from the Cp above.)
Someone then (incorrectly) canceled the I' on the left side, and found
that the equation still worked (since I' = 1 Amp). This led to the form
you have.
In the early days of batteries, there was little attempt to reconcile
units, especially since most of the science was (and continues to be)
empirical. As a result, we are left with a lot of equations in which
the units don't match up. All of these methods will work, as long as
you keep your definitions straight.
There's nothing magic about Peukert's equation -- it's only a curve fit,
developed at a time when curve fits were not easy to produce. It's
really hard to use in sizing because the variables depend as much on
your application -- particularly cutoff voltage -- as they do on your
battery. The only time I've seen the equation used is when you're
trying to estimate state-of-charge for a battery or when you're
comparing the current capabilities of different batteries. Frankly,
it's not very good in either application. You're better off using the
capacity and time tables that battery manufacturers distribute. If you
must have an equation, you can easily come up with one as good or better
with all the computing power we have, simply by taking the raw (or
specified) data from a battery and using a spreadsheet program to
extrapolate a nth degree polymomial curve fit or some other formula.
I hope it helps.
- Haresh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Part 2
==========================
Mr. Kamath,
This is a much more extensive answer than I could have hoped for; thank
you very much.
The problem was estimating SOC by measuring current used while driving
an electric vehicle. The idea was to have several current samples per
second (since current loads are extremely variable in such a vehicle)
logged to an on-board computer, then use Peukert's to do "coulomb
counting" in order to determine SOC. In other words, the application is
essentially a "battery gas gauge" for an electric vehicle.
This topic originally came up on the Electric Vehicle Discussion List
(EVDL). Would it be okay if I re-posted your response there? I won't
post your email address.
Thank you for your time.
-- Eric
==========================
Eric,
Sure, feel free to post it.
Two more things to note: First, for your application, you can calculate
the change in SOC by summing the Peukert's equation over time:
DOD = 1 - SOC = sum (I**n * delta T)
This is actually not a very good reflection of what is going on in the
battery, but it will serve your purposes reasonably and conservatively.
Secondly, from a practical standpoint: if you choose to use the
non-dimensionless version of Peukert's, keep in mind that the nameplate
ampere-hour capacity of a battery (the capacity specified by the
manufacturer) is almost never the capacity at 1 A. You will have to
test the battery to find out what the capacity is at 1A.
If you use the dimensionless version, you can use the nameplate current
as the characteristic current I', and the nameplate time as T'. The
commercial capacity rating will be I' * T'. So if the battery is rated
as 150 A-h at the 5 hour rate, I' = 30 A, and T' = 5 hours.
I hope it helps,
- Haresh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Part 3 (final)
====================
Eric,
Sure, feel free to post it.
Great, thanks.
Two more things to note: First, for your application, you can
calculate the change in SOC by summing the Peukert's equation over time:
DOD = 1 - SOC = sum (I**n * delta T)
That's what I figured. If you were sampling current each second, you'd
take your dataset and do I ** n * (1/3600), (non-dimensionless) assumes
amps and hours, and t is set to 1 because of sampling frequency; you'd
arrive at an Ah value.
This is actually not a very good reflection of what is going on in the
battery, but it will serve your purposes reasonably and conservatively.
Secondly, from a practical standpoint: if you choose to use the
non-dimensionless version of Peukert's, keep in mind that
the nameplate ampere-hour capacity of a battery (the capacity
specified by the manufacturer) is almost never the capacity at 1 A.
You will have to test the battery to find out what the capacity is at 1A.
I think it's typically the 20 hour rate, which means dimensionless will
only work for a 20Ah battery. I assume you mean using the
non-dimensionless version of peukert's to determine the exponent (n).
If n is already known, then I can simply use the DOD equation above,
correct?
If you use the dimensionless version, you can use the nameplate
current as the characteristic current I', and the nameplate time as
T'. The commercial capacity rating will be I' * T'. So if
the battery is rated as 150 A-h at the 5 hour rate, I' = 30 A, and T'
= 5 hours.
But I'd have to determine T and I (as opposed to T' and I') by
discharging the battery myself at a different rate. I would think that
I'd have to know the charged and discharged voltage levels used by the
manufacturer in order to make my T & I values valid when used with the
T' and I' give my the manuf. Alternatively, I could pick my own
charged/discharged voltages (have to look these up), and measure T, T',
I, I' myself.
I hope it helps,
Immensely! Thanks
====================
Eric,
Responses below...
> > Two more things to note: First, for your application, you
> > can calculate the change in SOC by summing the Peukert's
> > equation over time:
>
> > DOD = 1 - SOC = sum (I**n * delta T)
> That's what I figured. If you were sampling current each
> second, you'd take your dataset and do I ** n * (1/3600),
> (non-dimensionless) assumes amps and hours, and t is set to 1
> because of sampling frequency; you'd arrive at an Ah value.
Not quite... I cut a corner here by using dimensionless I and T in the
equation, which are (I/I') and (T/T') respectively. DOD and SOC here
are measured in percent, as a percent of the nominal capacity of the
battery. Nominal capacity would be I'*T'. Using I and T with regular
dimensions would give you a pseudo-capacity... Depending on what
accuracy you want, it may be close enough to the capacity used for your
purposes.
> > This is actually not a very good reflection of what is going
> > on in the battery, but it will serve your purposes reasonably
> > and conservatively.
>
> > Secondly, from a practical standpoint: if you choose to use
> > the non-dimensionless version of Peukert's, keep in mind that
> > the nameplate ampere-hour capacity of a battery (the capacity
> > specified by the manufacturer) is almost never the capacity
> > at 1 A. You will have to test the battery to find out what
> > the capacity is at 1A.
>
> I think it's typically the 20 hour rate, which means
> dimensionless will only work for a 20Ah battery. I assume
> you mean using the non-dimensionless version of peukert's to
> determine the exponent (n). If n is already known, then I
> can simply use the DOD equation above, correct?
Dimensionless will work for any battery, provided you define I' and T'
properly. If you have a battery rated for 500 Ah at the 20 hour rate,
then T' is 20 hours, and I' is 25 A. If n is defined by the
manufacturer, they have probably calculated it at this rate.
As you suggest, n will change somewhat depending on the rates at which
you measure the capacity of the battery. Ideally, n is calculated
across a broad range of current rates, but I doubt that many data points
near the 1 A rate are included. So using n in the dimensioned DOD
equation will probably lead to an inaccurate result. But realistically,
it may be accurate enough. The best way to figure out how much it
matters is to test it.
> > If you use the dimensionless version, you can use the
> > nameplate current as the characteristic current I', and the
> > nameplate time as T'. The commercial capacity rating will be
> > I' * T'. So if the battery is rated as 150 A-h at the 5 hour
> > rate, I' = 30 A, and T' = 5 hours.
> But I'd have to determine
> T and I (as opposed to T' and I') by discharging the battery
> myself at a different rate.
Just for clarity, let me restate the DOD equation fully, which I
neglected to do properly the first time:
DOD_m = 1 - SOC = sum(from m=0 to m=m) {(I_m/I')**n * [(delta T)/T']}
(Dimensionless)
(where I_m means I at moment m)
DOD_m is dimensionless: 0 is a fully charged battery, and 1 is a fully
discharged battery. T' is the manufacturer's rated discharge time, and
I' is the manufacturer's discharge current, where I' * T' = the
nameplate rating for the battery at the rated discharge time. So for a
battery rated at 500 Ah at the 20 hour rate, I' = 500 Ah / 20 h = 25 A.
The manufacturer should also calculate n at the
I_m is the measured current for a given sample interval. Since the
sample interval will be constant, the only variable is I. The output
will be a fraction of the nameplate rating: If DOD_m = 0.75, then the
battery is 75% depleted, and has been drained of 375 Ah. It would have
125 Ah left (at the 20 h rate).
> I would think that I'd have to
> know the charged and discharged voltage levels used by the
> manufacturer in order to make my T & I values valid when used
> with the T' and I' give my the manuf. Alternatively, I could
> pick my own charged/discharged voltages (have to look these
> up), and measure T, T', I, I' myself.
Yes, that's right. I'm assuming that your voltage cutoff levels are the
same as the manufacturer's. If they're not, you'll have to get your own
test data to estimate state of charge.
Although we're dancing around it, there's a fundamental problem here,
which is that Peukert's equation was never really created to measure
DOD, but to estimate battery capacity at various current rates. When
it's used to estimate DOD, it says that discharging at high current
rates somehow draws more amperes out of the battery than if you
discharge at low rates, which is not really true. If your current has
any major deviations from the average current (and in an EV application,
it will) then your SOC estimate may be significantly off.
What's more, the equation is an empirical relationship, and it will
never be 100% accurate. The further your measured current is from the
range across which the empirical relationship was calculated, the more
inaccurate it will be.
You will need to do a test with the algorithm and a battery to see how
far off it is for a representative duty cycle, with some high-current
periods mixed with some low-current periods. This will tell you how
accurate it is in your application.
- Haresh
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning on running accesories of the front motor shaft too and Roland
brings up some good
points. I had been planning on buying a DCDC but still no idea on what to get.
Why not just stay
with the alternator I already own instead of a DCDC I have to buy? Any downside
other than the
obvious? (no electricity unless motor is turning, etc.)
Any SIGNIFICANT efficiency difference between an alternator and a DCDC? Enough
to noticably impact
vehicle range. (deliberate grey area)
traction pack --> motor --> alternator --> accesory battery --> bells and
whistles
vs.
traction pack --> dcdc --> accesory battery --> bells and whistles
Does anyone have a means to turn off an electrical item above a certain speed?
I'd like to use an
air conditioning type clutch to control the power steering pump. Only drive the
pump at slow
speeds.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:27 -0600
>
> I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
> Alternator off the main
> motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from 192 volts at 4 amps to
> run the A/C while
> driving the others under no load.
>
> Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot
> shaft of the main
> motor, like a engine does. It works great. Used standard units that you can
> get at any auto
> parts store.
>
> When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these units
> fire up, the
> alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in 1st gear or
> reverse.
>
> I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I can
> run these units for
> maintenance and testing.
>
> When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still running,
> while the amp
> meters are reading O amps!! This is like a mechanical REGEN.
>
> In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on close to
> 3000 watts of
> heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on. This mechanical
> REGEN slows me down
> going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of a engine in first gear.
>
> When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any brakes,
> the Mech.REGEN slows
> me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at 0 amps on
> battery pack!
>
> Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Neon John wrote:
The common fallacy with all these otherwise good ideas is the
concept that anyone outside any of the... megacities is going
to drive to a station, unload all his goodies, lug 'em to a train,
have to bump elbows with... others, lug the stuff off at the
other end and then either walk or drive another vehicle the
rest of his way to his destination. Just ain't gonna happen.
Actually, it *does* happen every day. Certainly thousands, if not
millions of commuters drive to a Park-n-Ride, leave their car and take
the train, and upon arrival either walk or take another vehicle to their
final destination.
I have to agree with John here. People have no choice but to drag
behind their luggage, so they do, but this is major reason such
a transportation isn't popular. People see convenience of personal
transportation as improvement of their life style, not the drawback.
> I like this idea, too. I see Rick Woodbury's Tango as ideally suited to
this kind of daily commuting. I also understand one of the few popular
Amtrak services is the CarTrain, where people going on vacation can take
their car with them.
Well, I had a priviledge to meet and talk to the inventor of the
downhill coaster http://www.downhillcoaster.com/?frs=30&lid=2
(as well as inspect the guts of the vehicle, climb on the rails
and the end station). They believe urban transportation may look
like this. Also, if one works in the city and lives outside city,
there is no luggage just to go to work and back. Vacation
travel is totally different thing, I thought we're discussing daily
commuting. What kind of luggage do you carry every day to work?
Perhaps just a badge...
The hard part is to get the bureaucrats to stop looking backwards to the
past for solutions, and actually think about the future.
Always the case. If they are comfortable living in present,
change is always perceived as to be painful and unjustified,
yet eventually happen. They will just delay it as much as they can.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ta All,
Thanks for the input on this. The responses have been helpful and I'm psyched
to get going. I'm
going to try the smaller pencil type welder that connects to a compressor. I'm
also going to look
for one with adjustable heat (wattage.) Another good point is to make your own
welding rods from
the stock you are building the boxes from, perfect. Tim, you already had this
figured out.
Ingenuity makes up for many a slip of the bit.
The site www.urethanesupply.com is a great resource. They have a boatload of
info on plastics and
plastic repair.
Now if I can find a reasonable source of sheet HDPE in Connecticut, I'll be all
set. I can't
imagine it's cheap to ship a 4' X 8' sheet of anything.
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to agree -- no point in taking a crotch rocket and making it into
a electric moped.
Chris Tromley wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
My bosses kid has a yamaha motorcycle in pieces in the back of the plant
and my boss was asking if I wanted it to turn it into an EV. I have
never been much of a motorcycle person, but how much motor and batteries
and controller would make a reasonable project? This is one of those
ninja style bikes, pretty big frame.
Hi Jeff,
A Yamaha that is "ninja style" is probably a 600 - 1200 cc sport bike. A
600 or 750 would be a good choice - big enough to fit stuff, not too heavy.
If you can find out what year and model it is, your choice should be easier.
My approach with this would be to *not* embarrass EVs everywhere by
installing a foo-foo EV drivetrain. It doesn't do the cause any good when
you take a stock gas street bike that could easily out-accelerate all but a
few of the NEDRA record holders and "improve" it to the point where it
barely reaches 65 mph. What most people don't get is that adequate power is
a valuable safety feature.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I'm going to start by forwarding the message that started it all.
Please read my comments below for the current status:
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Wing
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 8:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Electric '59 MGA Roadster for Sale
Hi,
Only Known Electric '59 MGA Roadster in US or UK is for sale by owner.
I have had my fun but it is time to sell it to someone younger. A buyer
from the greater San Francisco Bay area or Sacramento, Calif. would have
qualified service help available if needed. Since 1972 it has been my
test
bed for various motor, controller, charger and battery configurations.
Present equipment is a Prestolite 4001 motor, Zapi H2 400 Amp controller
in
E-pump mode, (no contactor required), 20-12 VDC Optima deep-cycle
batteries
in buddy pairs at 120 VDC, E-Meter, beta-test Zivan 'Smoother' battery
equalizer (first one in USA on the road), onboard beta-test Russco 120
Vac
and Zivan NG3 240 Vac chargers. Front axle tow bar is included.
Won Classic Car Award at 1996 Stanford Electric Auto Assoc Rally.
Awarded
Most Technologically Innovative MG at the MG owner's Club (all ICEs
except
for two EVs) Jack London Square, Oakland CA 1998.
New fire engine red paint 4 years ago, all body panels removed nd
painted
separatelyl It has not been driven in the rain. It is a British car
and
the body panels rust out if the mud sticks in the cracks. Chrome, paint,
top and upholstery in great shape. Low rolling resistance tires.
Phone and come and drive it. Will part it out after 4 months if it has
not
sold as is.
Sale price $8,750. Extra charge of $800.each for Zivan Smoother or
either
second charger.
This is a sporty one-of-a-kind EV and great fun to drive.
Bob Wing
***********
As you probably know (or have guessed), I purchased "Fire Chief" from
Bob back in 1999, shortly after this email went out. (Bob passed away a
few years later.) I purchased both the Smoother (not working) and the
second charger, so paid a total of $10,350, or thereabouts. Since then,
the batteries have been replaced with yellow-tops, Mark II Rudman Regs
have been added, and the motor was completely rewound after it
overheated. The car has been to several shows around the Bay Area,
including a few more MG shows (it always wins Technologically Innovative
award), Hot August Niles in Fremont, and Newark Days in Newark. It
always attracts attention. It is a lot of fun to drive, and this is
perfect weather for it.
However, I currently don't drive it much. I drive it to car shows and
occasionally around town. Though the batteries don't have many cycles
on them, the pack is several years old and somewhat out of balance, so
it doesn't have the range to get me to work (19 miles of mixed freeway
and stop-and-go), and since I spend most of my off-time with my wife and
son, a two-seater is not so practical for us. Therefore, I reluctantly
decided to sell the car to someone who has more time and use for it.
I would like to get close to my original $10k back for this car. It
comes with lots of extras. Besides the tow bar, there are several spare
tires/wheels (wire spoke wheels) old battery racks, extra seat cover
material, miscellaneous electronics. It comes with a 110V Russco
charger and a 220V Zivan NG3. I'll also throw in a Zivan K2 that I
purchased separately. The Smoother is currently with Lee Hart for
analysis, but is not working.
This car has a lot of history. It was converted in 1973 by Bob Wing. I
have lots of documentation. He kept meticulous records of the
conversion process and modifications he made.
I would like to sell this to someone (preferably in the Bay Area or
northern California) who will treat the car well, and perhaps continue
to show it. This car is a legacy of an EV pioneer, and I want this
legacy to continue.
Photos and descriptions can be found at:
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/bobwing.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/114.html
http://www.nbeaa.org/wing/bob_wing_-_ev_pioneer.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys.... a alternator is one of the most in efficeint devices in a ICE
Car.
The DC to DC will save 1000 of watt hours over a belt driven alternator.
I say don't do it, it's a serious waste of time and power. The only way out
is to only use the alternator when you are braking, and only spin the belts
When you are in regen brake mode.
DC/DC converters are %70 to 90 eff and alternator... Lundel rotor... normal
stuff is at best %50 eff and the belts eat up as much power as alternator
does just spinning.
The work arounds are a Permag alternator, and a magnetic clutch, the keeps
anything from turning untill you need it, and a direct drive...aka no belts,
just the clutch and shafts.
Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter, will drop
your range by %20.
Big losses for simple reasons...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> I am planning on running accesories of the front motor shaft too and
Roland brings up some good
> points. I had been planning on buying a DCDC but still no idea on what to
get. Why not just stay
> with the alternator I already own instead of a DCDC I have to buy? Any
downside other than the
> obvious? (no electricity unless motor is turning, etc.)
>
> Any SIGNIFICANT efficiency difference between an alternator and a DCDC?
Enough to noticably impact
> vehicle range. (deliberate grey area)
> traction pack --> motor --> alternator --> accesory battery --> bells and
whistles
> vs.
> traction pack --> dcdc --> accesory battery --> bells and whistles
>
> Does anyone have a means to turn off an electrical item above a certain
speed? I'd like to use an
> air conditioning type clutch to control the power steering pump. Only
drive the pump at slow
> speeds.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:27 -0600
> >
> > I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main
> > motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from 192 volts at 4
amps to run the A/C while
> > driving the others under no load.
> >
> > Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot
shaft of the main
> > motor, like a engine does. It works great. Used standard units that
you can get at any auto
> > parts store.
> >
> > When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these
units fire up, the
> > alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in 1st
gear or reverse.
> >
> > I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I
can run these units for
> > maintenance and testing.
> >
> > When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still
running, while the amp
> > meters are reading O amps!! This is like a mechanical REGEN.
> >
> > In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on
close to 3000 watts of
> > heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on. This
mechanical REGEN slows me down
> > going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of a engine in first
gear.
> >
> > When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any
brakes, the Mech.REGEN slows
> > me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at 0 amps on
battery pack!
> >
> > Roland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry has suggested an MG or a Triumph front end.
Any suggestions for a 2F1R rear that would accommodate having an ICE drive
one side of the wheel and a motor the other? (Wide space required).
A swing arm suspension or?
BoyntonStu
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used uChip's linear temp sensor (TC1047A if I recall) if you
don't want to linearize in software. In general, silicon PTC
sensors are my preferred choice.
Bob Siebert wrote:
Hello:
I'm planning a long series string of Li-Ion batteries and am wondering
what folks generally do for temperature monitoring and/or protection.
For the latter I had imagined a bi-metallic temperature sensor on each
battery (or, perhaps, on a small group if their temperature commonality
could be designed in). This would work best during charging and could
simple result in opening the charging circuit. For temperature
monitoring during discharge, I was thinking about semiconductor sensors
on some sort of bus.
Comments are very welcome.
/Bob (eesolar) Siebert
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is easy to cut out a alternator, when you don't want to used it. On a two
wire alternator, just put a relay on the R-Terminal wire going to the
alternator which than be control by micro switches on the accelerator unit
and/or contactors or manual control switch.
When you open up this R-circuit, the alternator is no longer charging.
This R-circuit (which stands for Regulator) has about 10 ohms of resistance
between the ignition switch and the alternator terminal. I have experiment by
switch in a variable resistance that I can control from the dash, that will
decrease or increase the charging load.
I industrial alternator like the one I have on my EV can be control by
switching resistance contacts by rotating a plug in switch on the outside of
the alternator. You can extended this circuit to a dash control and either used
a selector switch or a variable resistance.
I can control the alternator from NO CHARGING (at or below battery voltage or
to FULL CHARGING which would be equal or greater than a balance charge.
If you have one of those ONE WIRE alternators, than you would have to install a
switch out circuit to the 12 volt jumper wire that goes between the 12 volt
terminal and regulator inside the alternator.
I am using a high amp hour 12 volt battery. At times, I could be drawing over
70 amps if I have every thing on that runs using 12 volts.
In this car I have:
4 large cooling fans that draw 5 amps each.
2 A/C fans that draw 4 amps each
Heating control system that is at 2 amps
Heating coolent pumps at 8 amps.
Over 100 indicator lights that is fuse for 10 amps
6 Vacuum motor control units that are about 2 amps each.
Head lites and parking lights that will draw over 20 amps if I have all four
lights on bright.
Zilla coolent pump at 1 amp
Zilla cooling fan at 4 amp
Motor cooling fan at 4 amp
Than the sound system which I did not look up yet.
So you see what I getting too. I do not have a large enough car to get the
DC/DC inverter in to run all this stuff.
My alternator has to be jack up all the way to 15.5 volts that has a voltage
drop to 14.5 volts drawing over 100 amps from a 145 amp alternator.
I also do not have the room to change all these motors out to a battery pack
voltage. Most of these 12 volt motor units are install in a very tight spaces.
Sometimes only 1/32 inch clearance.
I would than have to install 12 volt control relays with high voltage contacts
in a enclosure that can be control by the 12 volt switch circuits in the car.
This enclosure will also not fit in the car.
What I need is a bigger car.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
Hey guys.... a alternator is one of the most in efficeint devices in a ICE
Car.
The DC to DC will save 1000 of watt hours over a belt driven alternator.
I say don't do it, it's a serious waste of time and power. The only way out
is to only use the alternator when you are braking, and only spin the belts
When you are in regen brake mode.
DC/DC converters are %70 to 90 eff and alternator... Lundel rotor... normal
stuff is at best %50 eff and the belts eat up as much power as alternator
does just spinning.
The work arounds are a Permag alternator, and a magnetic clutch, the keeps
anything from turning untill you need it, and a direct drive...aka no belts,
just the clutch and shafts.
Rough guesses a belt driven alternator VS a DC to DC converter, will drop
your range by %20.
Big losses for simple reasons...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> I am planning on running accesories of the front motor shaft too and
Roland brings up some good
> points. I had been planning on buying a DCDC but still no idea on what to
get. Why not just stay
> with the alternator I already own instead of a DCDC I have to buy? Any
downside other than the
> obvious? (no electricity unless motor is turning, etc.)
>
> Any SIGNIFICANT efficiency difference between an alternator and a DCDC?
Enough to noticably impact
> vehicle range. (deliberate grey area)
> traction pack --> motor --> alternator --> accesory battery --> bells and
whistles
> vs.
> traction pack --> dcdc --> accesory battery --> bells and whistles
>
> Does anyone have a means to turn off an electrical item above a certain
speed? I'd like to use an
> air conditioning type clutch to control the power steering pump. Only
drive the pump at slow
> speeds.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> > To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> > Subject: Re: Air conditioner etc
> > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:27:27 -0600
> >
> > I am running not only the A/C, but the Power Steering, Vacuum pump and
Alternator off the main
> > motor pilot shaft which shows 188 volts drop down from 192 volts at 4
amps to run the A/C while
> > driving the others under no load.
> >
> > Therefore it was much simpler for me to run the accessories of the pilot
shaft of the main
> > motor, like a engine does. It works great. Used standard units that
you can get at any auto
> > parts store.
> >
> > When I start up the EV from a standing stop and starting moving, these
units fire up, the
> > alternator needs about 500 rpm to excite which is about 3 mph in 1st
gear or reverse.
> >
> > I used a idle stop on the accelerator linkage that I can activated, so I
can run these units for
> > maintenance and testing.
> >
> > When I coast to a stop or down hill, all these accessories are still
running, while the amp
> > meters are reading O amps!! This is like a mechanical REGEN.
> >
> > In the winter time when the streets and hills are icy, I can turn on
close to 3000 watts of
> > heating systems, lights and all other power I can turn on. This
mechanical REGEN slows me down
> > going down a steep hill like a ICE compression of a engine in first
gear.
> >
> > When I come to a stop at a intersection. I do not have to apply any
brakes, the Mech.REGEN slows
> > me down to a stop while generating power to the accessories at 0 amps on
battery pack!
> >
> > Roland
>
--- End Message ---
